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View Full Version : The gaming situation is desperate.



Wiebelhaus
December 16th, 2007, 10:39 PM
I've gone though a full 2 weeks of hardcore research & downloading and trials , the gaming situation is in great despair , it saddens me as I refuse to boot over into windows , The games and companies out there that support this deserve respect and I've paid for their product just to show them I'm out here but I'm left bored with the ones I have .....

Basically the point to this thread is..... Are there any in development that I may have missed because I'm an average user , not "in the mix"? Anything that may need some testing or funds for production?


Thanks.

fatality_uk
December 16th, 2007, 10:53 PM
What games do you have?

At the moment, I am playing, natively in Linux, depending on my mood
Quake Wars Enemy Territory
Quake 4
Urban Terror
Nexuiz
Tremulous
Alien Arena
UT 2003
Counter Strike
Flight Gear
Saurbraten
Racer WOW
Warsow
And possibly Savage 2 if I have 15 hours to kil

But yeah, you're right. Im in despair with Linux gaming. :D

Forgot, there's about another 20 or so games that I have, great modern games FPS etc, in my Firefox faves!!!
If required, I can post links and instructions for all

Wiebelhaus
December 16th, 2007, 11:01 PM
What games do you have?
At the moment, I am playing, natively in Linux, depending on my mood
Quake Wars Enemy Territory** Finished with it
Quake 4 **Finished
Urban Terror
Nexuiz **Not for me
Tremulous**not for me
Alien Arena**Not for me
UT - Currently enjoying 04
Counter Strike **Not for me
Flight Gear
Saurbraten**Another that's that doesn't do it for me
Racer WOW
Warsow** Not for me
And possibly Savage 2 if I have 15 hours to kil ,** It's cool but not advanced as I was hoping for

But yeah, you're right. Im in despair with Linux gaming. :D

I will not point out each thing I'm displeased with as I would find that tastless and rude , I'll just say it's not for me , I'm more or less looking for an up to date game , Playing WOW has become cumbersome , EVE has done a great thing , but Space stuff doesn't tickle my fancy , I'm hoping there's something on the horizon that's more or less next gen or at least up to date with this Century.

LaRoza
December 16th, 2007, 11:16 PM
I wouldn't say the gaming situation is desparate, I would say you are.

A list of games was given, so they do exist, but if you want to play specific games, get a console or use the native OS for that game.

Wiebelhaus
December 16th, 2007, 11:30 PM
I wouldn't say the gaming situation is desparate, I would say you are.

A list of games was given, so they do exist, but if you want to play specific games, get a console or use the native OS for that game.

nm.

fatality_uk
December 16th, 2007, 11:40 PM
but anyone who would pretend these games are up to date is being bullheaded and foolish

I believe I started my list with Quake Wars Enemy Territory! That's about as up to date as you get! A few months old! There are more plans for games releases next year. UT3 wil be coming out, after some legal wrangling in Feb 08 as a Linux client and Sierra have a few new games planned with a Linux release afterwards.

Far from being lost in the water, Linux gaming is getting stronger and I for one am doing as much as I can to promote it.

I have quoted a portion of your original reply. sx66gns. Might make my post now looks disjointed now, ahh well

omega_user
December 17th, 2007, 12:34 AM
I feel there are a few games out there for ubuntu and linux, but for commercial games there is next to nothing. I've also found most of the games that are available and good are FPS's, whereas a new age RTS or other RPG would be awesome. What I really want, but I'm sure will never happen, is that they make Spore linux friendly because that game looks like it'll be awesome. However, I'm starting to worry that they'll never make it at all. It's been in the works forever and at this point just seems like vaporware.

boast
December 17th, 2007, 12:43 AM
can u show examples of what games in windows you are looking for in linux?

-grubby
December 17th, 2007, 12:45 AM
can u show examples of what games in windows you are looking for in linux?

let me think........RPGs

KiwiNZ
December 17th, 2007, 12:49 AM
Blame can not be leveled at the game manufacturers. They must be able to provide a return in investment for the development costs etc.

At this stage it would be difficult to do this .

mnemosyne
December 17th, 2007, 12:51 AM
let me think........RPGs

Battle for Wesnoth (http://www.wesnoth.org/).

Wiebelhaus
December 17th, 2007, 01:24 AM
I feel there are a few games out there for ubuntu and linux, but for commercial games there is next to nothing. I've also found most of the games that are available and good are FPS's, whereas a new age RTS or other RPG would be awesome. What I really want, but I'm sure will never happen, is that they make Spore linux friendly because that game looks like it'll be awesome. However, I'm starting to worry that they'll never make it at all. It's been in the works forever and at this point just seems like vaporware.

I agree.

Wiebelhaus
December 17th, 2007, 01:25 AM
Blame can not be leveled at the game manufacturers. They must be able to provide a return in investment for the development costs etc.

At this stage it would be difficult to do this .

Very True.

Wiebelhaus
December 17th, 2007, 01:25 AM
Battle for Wesnoth (http://www.wesnoth.org/).

wtf.

Rupertronco
December 17th, 2007, 01:30 AM
wtf.

How did you finish Quake Wars? Saying you finished it makes me think you didn't even play it. I only have a few hours a week to devote to games of any kind, be it my xbox or PC, so I guess my satisfaction with Linux gaming may be somewhat skewed.

jeffc313
December 17th, 2007, 01:40 AM
i stick to n64 emulation when I want gaming on my linux box. Mupen64 is a very good emulator.

blithen
December 17th, 2007, 01:53 AM
i stick to n64 emulation when I want gaming on my linux box. Mupen64 is a very good emulator.

Doing the controls for the N64 are hard on a keyboard for me, but then again there is always SNES Emulation :D

mellowd
December 17th, 2007, 01:55 AM
This is why Windows is still on my regular pc :p

Murrquan
December 17th, 2007, 02:03 AM
DOSBox FTW! It seems like half the old games I used to play shareware versions of have now been released as freeware. ^.^

As far as gaming on Linux goes, I understand Wine makes it possible to run lots of Windows games. Not all of them, sadly ... but hopefully someday they'll be as reliable as DOSBox.

forrestcupp
December 17th, 2007, 02:20 AM
Blame can not be leveled at the game manufacturers. They must be able to provide a return in investment for the development costs etc.

At this stage it would be difficult to do this .
We've been through that argument before, a lot.

What you said is true, but it doesn't have to be. There are a host of cross platform 3D engines, 2D engines, sound engines, GUI frameworks etc. that prove that it is possible to make cross platform games without having to ever change any code. Ogre3D is a great example of a 3D engine good for games. It uses modern technology and you can create your content once, write your code once, and compile it for any platform.

Ogre3D may not be right for everyone, but these things just prove that it is possible to make engines and games that will compile on any platform with very little extra effort. They just have to be designed up front with that in mind. It is more their mindset and prejudices that is a hindrance than the fact that it will take more work.

If you can add a few sales with no extra work, why not?

Bromo
December 17th, 2007, 02:47 AM
Games seem to me to be changing a bit - and multi-platform is the norm that I see when I look at advertising in games magazines.

I am sure someone more experienced than me (I am only a game player not a programmer and writer) can comment on how games will be deployed in the future?

AndyCooll
December 17th, 2007, 03:02 AM
"Desperate" is probably overplaying the situation a bit. However, it is true that Linux gaming arena compares poorly when compared to other OS platforms.

Unfortunately good games are thin on the ground. I play Football Manager (using Wine) and there really isn't anything of a comparable quality available for the Linux OS. Bygfoot Football Manager is about as near as you can get, and admirable as this is it's a bit like suggesting comparing TuxPaint with Adobe Photoshop. TuxPaint does its job (and does it well) but its positively basic when compared to a full professional graphic app. Indeed sports games of any sort are thin on the ground.

We just have to hope that these platform independent solutions mentioned by forrestcupp become the mainstream and more games start to be developed for all OS's.

:cool:

inversekinetix
December 17th, 2007, 04:42 AM
Games I have recently played are

Hellgate London
Lost Planet Extreme Condition
Sniper Elite
Bioshock


Next up will be

COD 4
Crysis


I know theres nothing comparable for linux nor are there any games which will push my hardware\ so I'm with windows.

Wiebelhaus
December 17th, 2007, 06:25 AM
can u show examples of what games in windows you are looking for in linux?

I don't use windows so I'm not trying to compare , but basically newer advanced games , the ones people are linked and told to look into are late 90's or early 2000ish games , now quake wars is really good and as someone tried to discredit me by asking how I finished it no, I haven't finished it since that's impossible but I'm finished with it rather , after playing for a awhile and then waiting for an hour to get a solid game going , then you get a group of five idiots who spawn kill the team over & over it got pretty lame.

anyway we'll just keep waiting , next year should be good.

toupeiro
December 17th, 2007, 07:06 AM
I think the gaming scene is the next thing coming to linux, with companies like ID software paving the way. KiwiNZ is right, they have to turn a profit. The funny thing is, they would turn a profit, today. Then why don't they? because its high risk. THere are no guaranteed margins. Linux OSes as you know them today spread by word of mouth rapidly, considering where its at from where it was just 5 years ago. (yes, I know linux is older than 5 years old, but I am focusing on its rising as a real desktop alternative to Windows). Few companies want to take a risk on word of mouth. ID is big enough to take a risk on word of mouth, and kudo's to them for doing it. I'd be curious to look at their sales numbers of Quake wars: Windows sales versus Linux worldwide..

What bothers me is that there are other companies (e.g. Blizzard or Valve ) who could make native linux ports and not /lose/ anything substantial to their bottom line if the attempt flopped haven't made a single acknowledgment to the foothold the linux market is gaining. Its a pretty open market, begging for attention, but it will take time for it to be answered. The more games that are a success today, a lesser risk will be felt by other companies down the line who are wary of linux ports today.

The fact we are seeing things like Quake Wars: ET reinforces my thinking here. I'd say another two years or so and you will have a linux port for every game that receives a Mac port if not more.

Takmadeus
December 17th, 2007, 07:45 AM
No, the gaming situation is not desperate. actually there are great games for linux just not commercial ones and trust me, a real player knows that a great game does not need great graphics (they help though). I will mention some of the greatest games playable in linux.

Vegastrike
Astromenace
Scorched 3D
Freedroid RPG (for diablo fans, its really good)
Scourge
Globulation2
lincity NG

Variety is there.... you just need to stop thinking commercial :)

and a game that does not punch the limit of resources does not have to suck... for example... I would have a lot more fun playing Diablo II than Obscure, or WoW. and I would have more fun playing Tremulous than quake 4 MP or quake wars.

and as added previously, even if linux support is not the best for commercial games, you just need to wait some more and you'll see that more and more companies will support linux... but if you are desperate to have a resource hog game running, install windows... there is nothing wrong with that so don't be afraid-..... the matter is to get what you want and if windows suits you well, then go for it. One thing.... you can always doubleboot ;)

Dimitriid
December 17th, 2007, 09:07 AM
Blame can not be leveled at the game manufacturers. They must be able to provide a return in investment for the development costs etc.

At this stage it would be difficult to do this .

It usually takes 1 employee a few weeks to produce a Linux port. Even if the sales are beyond terrible, something like 100 copies would cover the costs easily.

I understand this is what they claim, but Im not buying it. DirectX and Microsoft is the single reason why gaming on Linux doesn't takes off.

mips
December 17th, 2007, 09:58 AM
How about commercial Linux games? I like the looks of Cold War.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Game_Publishing
http://linuxgamepublishing.com/
http://icculus.org/lgfaq/gamelist.php (filter on Commercial)
http://www.linuxgamingworld.com/games-catalog/
http://www.tuxgames.com/

tehet
December 17th, 2007, 10:24 AM
TA Spring looks shiny though I think it's still beta.

JurB
December 17th, 2007, 10:51 AM
You can try out the Ogre3d engine if you get "Those funny funguloids". The game is rather pointless and not exactly nex-gen, but can be fun.

Tundro Walker
December 17th, 2007, 11:28 AM
It usually takes 1 employee a few weeks to produce a Linux port. Even if the sales are beyond terrible, something like 100 copies would cover the costs easily.

I understand this is what they claim, but Im not buying it. DirectX and Microsoft is the single reason why gaming on Linux doesn't takes off.

I'm not the expert here (but that's never stopped me from tossing in my 2 cents..hehe), but there has to be more to this equation. Otherwise, folks like Valve & Blizzard, who are considered very smart game companies (both in the development aspect and the business aspect) would be raking in a few more dollars from easy ports to Linux.

Cross-platform compatibility usually means a loss in performance. But, I think you said things like Ogre3D lets the user compile down to an OS-specific version, so you remove the "cross-platform" layer that slows things down, and the program operates as if it was a native program (?).

EG: Java programs are cross-platform, but that's usually because you're running them on the Java Virtual Machine (JVM), which would be like running a Windows game on Linux using Virtual Machine to run the Windows ... you have that added layer of "bulk" to make it work. But, if you can compile down a Java program into native Linux code, you can remove the JVM and just run the program natively on Linux.

This sounds really nice, but computers and languages are complex. And I think there's perhaps some flexibility, or "elegance" lost when you use one of these cross-platform things like Ogre3D ... it might limit your program options, or bloat some things up where you'd rather make them lean and elegant.

I just think of all companies, Blizzard would be the ones who wouldn't mind jumping into the Linux crowd. Blizzard has tons of cash from WoW, so they could afford a test market of some game they develop. I'm sure some folks would say "why not just port WoW?". But I think WoW is so coded in Windows native language that it might be hard to make a port. It started as a Windows program, without consideration to make it a Linux program. Tacking on Linux capability after-the-fact would probably hard by now.

I think Blizzard or Valve should try taking their next game they're going to develop, and plan on making a Linux version of it, too. Half-Life 3 ... for Windows & Linux. If they're focusing on C# programming, they can dump it to Mono and compile it into Linux.

Jhongy
December 17th, 2007, 11:29 AM
I think virtualisation technology could be the future of cross-platform games.

We can now easily virtualise the CPU with little to no performance penalty -- just need a way to get at the GPU now. Virtualisation software that can translate DirectX instructions to openGL are already arriving.... but if there can be a way for the GPU to natively provide access to a virtual operating system, I imagine that would help.

games developers could wrap their standard games in a lightweight OS and a virtualisation layer, and they would run, exactly the same, on any computer.

Sounds complex, but I imagine it could be easier for the devs as once they have the wrapper, they can use it for any game, and they know exactly what environment (virtual hardware) their game would be running in.

The only thing stymying it is that if the devs want to use DirectX, it is tied to Windows.

Jhongy
December 17th, 2007, 11:32 AM
This sounds really nice, but computers and languages are complex. And I think there's perhaps some flexibility, or "elegance" lost when you use one of these cross-platform things like Ogre3D ... it might limit your program options, or bloat some things up where you'd rather make them lean and elegant.


Ah, we effectively posted the same thing at the same time :-)

I'm not sure about bloat -- games don't really tax the CPU all that much, and the general trend for software is re-usable wrappers, classes, etc, that make devs lives easier at the expense of lean code.

With high-speed, multi-core CPUs, I don't think it is an issue (at least, not for frivolous apps like games).

The other trend of course is towards consoles -- which makes the whole discussion rather moot anyway.

J

vt100
December 17th, 2007, 12:12 PM
http://www.planetpdf.com/codecuts/pdfs/eckel/TIC2Vone.zip

http://www.planetpdf.com/codecuts/pdfs/eckel/TIC2Vtwo.zip

http://pil.pl/~mariuszj/rozne/plg-second-printing-update.pdf (a bit out of date but still a good reference)

http://www.blender.org/education-help/tutorials/

Good modern games are hard to make (a lot of work) I'll bet that the people who made these games (the most cutting edge OS games) did it in their free time and it was probably the first time they made a game of that magnitude. Games will get better and I eagerly await yours.

airtonix
December 17th, 2007, 12:28 PM
If blizzard or whoever dont opensource their client & server engines...

eventually someone else will...

fatality_uk
December 17th, 2007, 12:39 PM
Guys, don't confuse publishers with games developers. The publishers hold the key to the Linux games market. Developers like Raven, wont move on a port until say ID Software give them the green light to put the finances in place to have a Linux dev/porting team. For that you need maybe 3 bodies, plus the best part of 3 months to produce it.

I am currently working on a project to setup a games/application porting team that will commercially undertake some of the work for developers and publishers. I know there's a lot of interest already and I have made some progress. I'd ask anyone with an interest to PM me with details. Being realistic, I already have dozens of offers for beta testers and while any contribution would be grateful, anyone with skills in coding, graphics or sound would be more than welcome :D

Gaute65
December 17th, 2007, 12:58 PM
http://www.penumbra-overture.com/

plun
December 17th, 2007, 01:14 PM
What you said is true, but it doesn't have to be. There are a host of cross platform 3D engines, 2D engines, sound engines, GUI frameworks etc. that prove that it is possible to make cross platform games without having to ever change any code. Ogre3D is a great example of a 3D engine good for games. It uses modern technology and you can create your content once, write your code once, and compile it for any platform.



Well.. perhaps easy to explain at nVidias dev site ?

http://developer.nvidia.com/page/home.html

and also their new forum
http://developer.nvidia.com/forums/index.php

DirectX 10 is maybe more important then OOXML...:)

And the Linux world just sits and fights proprietary formats instead of working solutions...:---)

forrestcupp
December 17th, 2007, 02:49 PM
This sounds really nice, but computers and languages are complex. And I think there's perhaps some flexibility, or "elegance" lost when you use one of these cross-platform things like Ogre3D ... it might limit your program options, or bloat some things up where you'd rather make them lean and elegant.
Ogre3D is a 3D engine that uses the C++ language. It uses preprocessor macros and other commands to tell the compiler which platform to compile for. Then it compiles the game to run natively in whichever platform you compile it on. Almost every game made uses some kind of engine to program the game. It's very rare to find a game that was programmed in straight DirectX or OpenGL. There is some truth that if you programmed without an engine it would be leaner, but almost every game made uses an engine and they do just fine with them.

But to clear things up, I'm not saying Ogre3D is the answer. I'm using it as an example that it's possible to make engines that allow you to create games for multiple platforms without having to put any work into porting.



I am currently working on a project to setup a games/application porting team that will commercially undertake some of the work for developers and publishers. I know there's a lot of interest already and I have made some progress. I'd ask anyone with an interest to PM me with details. Being realistic, I already have dozens of offers for beta testers and while any contribution would be grateful, anyone with skills in coding, graphics or sound would be more than welcome :D
Boy, that is exactly what is needed. You're bringing hope to the situation. I hope a lot of people go for what you are trying to do.



DirectX 10 is maybe more important then OOXML...:)

And the Linux world just sits and fights proprietary formats instead of working solutions...:---)
Very true, and probably the biggest hindrance to commercial gaming in Linux. But I think that it might be possible to do all of the DX10 stuff in OpenGL. I may be wrong about that, though.