Is preinstalled linux a ripoff?

[evil316]

Is it really worth it to buy a system with linux preinstalled? Don't they cost nearly as much if not as much as a windows system? With windows you are buying the OS, with linux you aren't. Seems to me companies are just making more of a profit off of Linux by selling preinstalled systems. If not then a comparable hardware config for Linux should be hundreds less than Windows. Personally I'd rather just build my own. I wonder if Microsoft has a hand in making sure Linux preloaded systems aren't sold overly cheap because it would hurt MS market share pretty good.

[rfruth]

Once a big manufacturer is 'tooled up' for Windows its hard to make much money from us tight wad GNU/Linux users and yes I bet Micro$oft is doing everything in their power to keep Linux down but that said I don't believe preinstalled linux is a ripoff, ya save a few bucks (but are paying for convenience)

[evil316]

I agree, paying for the convenience. I still think the preinstalled Linux systems should be cheaper but in the end I think the greater good is served by having the preinstalled systems out there for people to buy to increase the visibility of Linux and thus increasing it's market share.

[AndyCooll]

I recently bought a couple of laptops from Dell with Ubuntu pre-installed. I was narked that this version was more expensive than if I'd bought the same laptop with Vista installed however ...

I still bought them because I felt it provided a certain guarantee that the laptop would work out-of-the-box with Ubuntu.
Also having major suppliers provide Linux as an alternative OS is important and I wanted to support that and help show that there is a demand for the Linux OS.

Getting them to set the right price will then hopefully follow, However, it's still better to supply one that's a bit too expensive than not at all IMHO.

And I've been happy with my purchase so far.

:cool:

[phrostbyte]

You can sometimes find coupons online for Dell's Ubuntu PCs. Using them will cause the machines to be less expensive then the Windows counterparts. You can also buy a Windows machine and call the OEM and ask for a refund for Windows, which is explicitly allowed if you refuse EULA.

[aysiu]

The issue is complex.

The cost to Dell, for example, is not really the cost of the OS (as in Windows Vista costs money, and Ubuntu does not). For X hours of testing and configuring with Vista, they can sell millions of Vista computers. For that same X hours of testing and configuring with Ubuntu, they sell only a small amount (what was the speculation--40,000?) of Ubuntu computers. Microsoft probably gives bulk discounts to Dell for Windows licenses, and then probably also pays Dell a significant chunk of change to plaster Dell recommends Windows Vista all over the Dell website (including the Ubuntu part of the Dell website). And then most Windows-preinstalled computers come with crapware, too, which Dell gets kickbacks from (anti-virus, ISP sign-ups, etc.). So, in the end, the Windows license cost to Dell doesn't really mean much, and probably they even make money on it.

So, no, the cost of the OS does not and should not (from a business perspective) make the Ubuntu model cheaper than the Vista model.

From a strictly business perspective on the customer end of things, I can understand the logic of "Why would I pay $Y for Ubuntu when I can pay $Y and get a free copy of Vista and dual-boot Ubuntu on it?" But from an end-user's perspective, it makes no sense to me. If I wanted Vista, I'd get Vista. I don't want Vista, so I wouldn't buy a Vista computer in order to dual-boot. My personal opinion is dual-boots suck. Emulation, virtualization, or KVM switches are far more convenient. The best of all is to just cut Windows out completely, in which case, why would you want Vista? Or, if you needed Vista in the first place, why would you even consider getting a Ubuntu-preloaded computer?

It should also be noted that the Dell Vista and Ubuntu models are not exactly the same. I think Dell decided on one video card for the Vista laptop and another video card for the Ubuntu laptop for compatibility reasons. So buying the Ubuntu laptop would be voting with your wallet and rewarding Dell for doing the testing to see what parts would be most compatible with Ubuntu.

Looking at the success of the XO laptop, the gOS Everex desktop, and the ASUS EeePC, though, I'd say preinstalled Linux is more likely to take off on low-end machines for cheap. Everex is planning to release a $400 tiny laptop in January (I think with gOS), and I may just get it. There's something to be said for a tiny, cheap laptop. In the past, tiny laptops have actually been more expensive than their larger counterparts.

[OrangeCrate]

A Dell Inspiron 530N

Intel®Pentium® dual-core processor E2140 (1MB L2,1.60GHz,800 FSB)
Ubuntu Desktop Edition version 7.04
No Monitor
1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz- 2DIMMs
250GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache™
48X CD-RW/ DVD Combo Drive
128MB NVIDIA GeForce 8300GS
Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio
Dell USB Keyboard and Dell Optical USB Mouse
No Floppy Drive Included

$329

Pretty good deal to me.

http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=19&kc=6V440&l=en&oc=DDCWDAL&s=dhs

[aysiu]

A Dell Inspiron 530N

Intel®Pentium® dual-core processor E2140 (1MB L2,1.60GHz,800 FSB)
Ubuntu Desktop Edition version 7.04
No Monitor
1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz- 2DIMMs
250GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache™
48X CD-RW/ DVD Combo Drive
128MB NVIDIA GeForce 8300GS
Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio
Dell USB Keyboard and Dell Optical USB Mouse
No Floppy Drive Included

$329

Pretty good deal to me.

http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=19&kc=6V440&l=en&oc=DDCWDAL&s=dhs Is there some kind of special coupon you're using? When I click on that link, I see it for $499.

[new2*buntu]

I also see $499

[OrangeCrate]

Is there some kind of special coupon you're using? When I click on that link, I see it for $499.

Under the monitor section, choose "no monitor", and it'll recalculate the price to $329.

[evil316]

That's a very good point. I hadn't considered the kick backs and ad money they get for windows based systems. When you look at it that way and add in the testing it would actually be more expensive to sell computers preloaded with Ubuntu it not as much from Dell's perspective.

[LookTJ]

Under the monitor section, choose "no monitor", and it'll recalculate the price to $329.dang you beat me to it.

[jrusso2]

Dell could at least provide the nvidia drivers, codecs and a DVD player for the Ubuntu Linux box.

Then at least it would be less of a rip. They provide all that for vista

[Incense]

I think it's worth it if you order from a company like system76 (http://www.system76.com/) who includes a special repo with all the drivers needed to make the hardware work as it should without any mucking about on google or in the forums. Since Dell just includes vanilla ubuntu, I do not see any real benefit aside from supporting a company supporting linux.

[evil316]

You can sometimes find coupons online for Dell's Ubuntu PCs. Using them will cause the machines to be less expensive then the Windows counterparts. You can also buy a Windows machine and call the OEM and ask for a refund for Windows, which is explicitly allowed if you refuse EULA.

How does that work? You can get a refund on the Windows OS if you call for it before you even boot it up (ie accept the EULA)? Do you know how much that refund is? That would be a good way of getting a big refund on a machine. Assuming of course you can get Ubuntu to work with the new hardware designed for Vista that comes on a preloaded Vista machine.

[evil316]

From what I've read Microsoft does not offer direct refunds for bundled OEM versions of the OS. Refund has to be requested by the PC/laptop manufacturer. I wonder if Dell even will refund the money for it and if so how much. I'll have to dig around on the Dell site and see what I can find out.

[evil316]

This is what Dell has to say on the subject:

If I were to purchase a system preloaded with vista and decided I did not want Vista and I did not accept the Windows EULA would I be able to get a refund from Dell for the cost of Vista?
10:21:27 AM BE_Rep_Ryan_T unfortunately, we can't give refund on pre-loaded program.

[psusi]

Yea, after the oem discounts and the crapware kickbacks, windows probably doesn't cost Dell a dime.

You may find this article interesting:

http://articles.tlug.jp/Windows_Is_Free

[aysiu]

You may find this article interesting:

http://articles.tlug.jp/Windows_Is_Free There's a discussion thread here (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=526872) about that article.

[xeth_delta]

If nothing else, at least you know you are not contributing directly to Microsoft. It might sound like a harsh opinion,but I really don't appreciate the FUD Microsoft is trying to spread about Linux and the FOSS in general. If there is anything I can do, as insignificant as it might seem, to counter those actions, I'll be happy to do it.

Xeth

[NightCrawler03X]

Preinstalled linux pc's are a ripoff up front. They cost the same as windows pc's basically.

But when you want to update your system (by that I don't mean bug fixes, etc, I mean full release of a newer version of the OS), you don't pay a dime.

So initially, it is a rip off. But in the long run it pays off I suppose.

Still, I despise prebuilt machines, they are designed for people who don't care about what is inside their system.
I prefer to build them myself (which isn't that much cheaper, usually about 20% less to build). But you get the added benefit of being able to have whatever you want in your system.

I do, however, agree that sites like http://www.wired2fire.co.uk
are fine. They build your system for you, but you get to choose exactly what they put into your machine. Most of them give you windows preinstalled, but most of them will give you a no-os option, and leave you to install an operating system yourself.
With this option, these machines are very cheap.

[aysiu]

If nothing else, at least you know you are not contributing directly to Microsoft. It's true. Sometimes it's not always about getting the best deal but voting with your wallet. It's a bit like complaining about Wal-Mart's treatment of its employees and vendors and then shopping there anyway because it's cheaper than ________ store by about $.11 per product.

Of course, I'm not going to pay an exhorbitant amount extra just to make a statement, but if it's a small fraction of the total cost of the product, sometimes it's worth the expense to support businesses you believe in.

McDonald's is certainly cheaper than my favorite restaurant, but my favorite restaurant is a local business and serves better food.

[Kvark]

You also pay for support so the ones with Linux should perhaps even be more expensive. Giving lots of Windows users the same answers to the same problems costs only a couple minutes per customer. To come up with separate solutions for a few Linux users is much more expensive counted per customer.

At work if a Windows user asks about a problem we don't already know the solution for then I take the time to if possible reproduce and solve the problem. Then I can write down the solution to give it to the 20+ other Windows users that are probably going to ask exactly the same thing. If a Linux user asks anything I'm not payed to waste time finding a solution only one or maybe two customers will ever use. Our solution to all Linux problems is to blame someone else (Graphics related? Must be Nvidia/ATI's fault. Network related? Must be your ISP's fault. I don't know who to blame? Must be Linux's fault.) and hope the Linux user goes away to ask them instead. I really hate this part but the job is fine the rest of the time.

[evil316]

You also pay for support so the ones with Linux should perhaps even be more expensive. Giving lots of Windows users the same answers to the same problems costs only a couple minutes per customer. To come up with separate solutions for a few Linux users is much more expensive counted per customer.

At work if a Windows user asks about a problem we don't already know the solution for then I take the time to if possible reproduce and solve the problem. Then I can write down the solution to give it to the 20+ other Windows users that are probably going to ask exactly the same thing. If a Linux user asks anything I'm not payed to waste time finding a solution only one or maybe two customers will ever use. Our solution to all Linux problems is to blame someone else (Graphics related? Must be Nvidia/ATI's fault. Network related? Must be your ISP's fault. I don't know who to blame? Must be Linux's fault.) and hope the Linux user goes away to ask them instead. I really hate this part but the job is fine the rest of the time.


Problem is some computer users simply refuse to seek out the information needed to solve problems. They'd rather it be handed to them on a silver platter. Even I'm guilty of this and I've work in computers my whole life. With linux the solution is usually out there 99% of the time if people would simply take the time to look for it.

[sloggerkhan]

At work if a Windows user asks about a problem we don't already know the solution for then I take the time to if possible reproduce and solve the problem. Then I can write down the solution to give it to the 20+ other Windows users that are probably going to ask exactly the same thing. If a Linux user asks anything I'm not payed to waste time finding a solution only one or maybe two customers will ever use. Our solution to all Linux problems is to blame someone else (Graphics related? Must be Nvidia/ATI's fault. Network related? Must be your ISP's fault. I don't know who to blame? Must be Linux's fault.) and hope the Linux user goes away to ask them instead. I really hate this part but the job is fine the rest of the time.

Is it your users' job to support their own computers? To me this message typifies the lazy bum attitude that's wrong with most IT people. And at any workplace with a competent supervisor, it'd get you fired. And even worse, you're just giving average employees the impression that non-MS OSes are crap.

[evil316]

I know this is going a little off topic and that's fine by me since I started the thread. I was at a hospital a while back and they offered free wireless access with no encryption to people staying at the hospital and guests. I went down to get the document listing the SSID and whatever other info I might need to connect. I had an Ubuntu laptop and a Vista laptop. Well the network didn't work with Vista and the directions were for Mac and XP. That's fine, I got Ubuntu to work just fine after posting a thread on this board about how to do it cause I couldn't get it done through the GUI and had to use a couple of commands in CLI. I wrote instructions on how to do it for my wife and daughter. Next time I go to the hospital I will have those instructions printed out and hand them to the lady I got the instructions from and let her know this is how to do it in Linux, please have the IT people update the document. I think doing small things like that can really help spread linux and make it easier for the typical computer usr to feel comfortable using it.

[Iehova]

This is what Dell has to say on the subject:

If I were to purchase a system preloaded with vista and decided I did not want Vista and I did not accept the Windows EULA would I be able to get a refund from Dell for the cost of Vista?
10:21:27 AM BE_Rep_Ryan_T unfortunately, we can't give refund on pre-loaded program.

I was considering buying a laptop from Dell once... I called up to ask about getting a refund for windows and the guy said he couldn't _remove_ it for me, but he'd give me a refund of the cost of windows vista to dell, which is £30, supposedly.

So yeah, they may try to bullsh*t you, but they'll probably do it if you ask nicely. :P

[evil316]

They might. Beyond that another option is buying a system with no OS and many companies offer that option. However, I'm sold on buying a system preloaded with Linux, when I do buy a new system which won't be for a while I'll buy it with Linux.

[Kvark]

Is it your users' job to support their own computers? To me this message typifies the lazy bum attitude that's wrong with most IT people. And at any workplace with a competent supervisor, it'd get you fired. And even worse, you're just giving average employees the impression that non-MS OSes are crap.
I agree completely but unfortunately my supervisor disagrees completely. I tried to bring a Kubuntu Live CD to have something to go on when helping Linux users but since it can be assumed that the customers could just use Windows like everyone else that got me a lecture on how to use the time more efficiently (basically "stop 'playing' with that") plus the remark: "The problem with you technicians is that you like to give away your expensive expertise even when it's not necessary."

[Prisma]

For X hours of testing and configuring with Vista, they can sell millions of Vista computers. For that same X hours of testing and configuring with Ubuntu, they sell only a small amount (what was the speculation--40,000?) of Ubuntu computers.

The question that we should ask is what does that numbers really mean? lets say the number is around 40,000 units sold in 2008. But have anyone consider that a buyer have to dig deep in the Dell website to stumble with the Ubuntu laptops. I really think most of the people out there just don't know Dell have other offers available besides Vista and XP.
And lets remember that "Dell recommends Windows Vista" so to illustrate my point this is like going to a car dealer call "Joe's", and in the main door find gigantic poster besides each car saying "Joe's dealer recommend you to drive Ford" and they keep the Kias and other brands hidden at the back.

I don't think those numbers mean that much and I bet those guys at Dell are starting to realize it with the massive sales of Everex at Walmart.

[aysiu]

The question that we should ask is what does that numbers really mean? lets say the number is around 40,000 units sold in 2008. But have anyone consider that a buyer have to dig deep in the Dell website to stumble with the Ubuntu laptops. I really think most of the people out there just don't know Dell have other offers available besides Vista and XP.
And lets remember that "Dell recommends Windows Vista" so to illustrate my point this is like going to a car dealer call "Joe's", and in the main door find gigantic poster besides each car saying "Joe's dealer recommend you to drive Ford" and they keep the Kias and other brands hidden at the back.

I don't think those numbers mean that much and I bet those guys at Dell are starting to realize it with the massive sales of Everex at Walmart. I agree with you completely.

Even on the Ubuntu page, they say they recommend Vista.

The point remains, though, that they have to put in extra hours (which means employees needing to be paid) to support another operating system. So the cost of the actual operating system license ($0) does not reflect the actual cost to Dell.

[Prisma]

Yes I agree that the point remains. But who knows, maybe they see this not as a cost but as an investment. The demand is out there, and the potential for Linux is huge. I have this funny feeling that they soon will start to offer sub notebooks with Linux preinstalled.

[evil316]

Places to buy preloaded linux systems.

http://www.zareason.com/shop/home.php

http://www.linspire.com/featured_partner/featured_partner.php?sent=1&country=1

[mmb1]

I think that the publicity that linux receives may very well make up for any addtional costs. With the recent surge in sales of linux boxes,(Eee PC, Everex gPC) how many windows users have considered giving linux a try?

[Incense]

I think that the publicity that linux receives may very well make up for any addtional costs. With the recent surge in sales of linux boxes,(Eee PC, Everex gPC) how many windows users have considered giving linux a try?

Oh, I forgot about the Eee PC. I really REALLY want one of those! People who have one seem pretty pleased with it, and may not even know they are running linux. What a brilliant little KDE machine!

[mmb1]

What a brilliant little KDE machine!

Does the Eee PC's Xandros variant use KDE? Or were you planning on modding it to run the full blown KDE?

[Incense]

Does the Eee PC's Xandros variant use KDE? Or were you planning on modding it to run the full blown KDE?

It runs KDE, although a very modified KDE. To enable the full KDE goodness you have to installer kicker and ksmserver. It is very GTK heavy though with OpenOffice and Firefox, but it's all good. I hear you can install vanilla ubuntu and (for whatever reason) windows XP on this little guy as well. Not a bad little machine!

[Jack78]

Oh well, let the hardware companies keep their extra profit (for having Linux computers the same cost as Windows ones). It's still good, after all, what's the point of buying a laptop with vista on it if we're going to reformat and install Ubuntu anyway? :)

[OrangeCrate]

Dell could at least provide the nvidia drivers, codecs and a DVD player for the Ubuntu Linux box.

Then at least it would be less of a rip. They provide all that for vista

Not providing the drivers has nothing to do with Dell. It's a Canonical/Ubuntu decision. See here, from aysiu's psychocats site:


Ubuntu doesn't include Nvidia drivers in a default installation for a number of reasons.

http://psychocats.net/ubuntu/nvidia

The codecs, etc., I believe you get from the U/K/X restricted extras packages for the same reason.

[OrangeCrate]

Dell at least is trying the great experiment of providing a mainstream Linux option to it's offerings. However, it's a very small part of it's business, and it's not going to turn away any of the Microsoft marketing monies, just to make us Linux folks happy.

I'm not going to go back and find the source, but I read recently, that during the same time period that they shipped approximately 50,000 Ubuntu units, they shipped 10 million Windows units.

They're running a business, and I don't fault them for having the "We Recommend Microsoft Whatever" on any of their web pages.

Since other manufacturers I assume are watching the success Dell has with the program before they offer similar products, if you really want to see Linux offered as a mainstream alternative to Windows by the big boys, rather than from System 76, which is a cottage operation compared to Dell, HP, etc., stop pontificating, and buy one of Dell's computers. I did.

Edit:

Oh, and to address the OP's question "Is preinstalled Linux a ripoff?, understanding how manufacturing works, they're running the Ubuntu boxes out of sync with the rest of their production runs, as a special order run, and I guarantee you, if you factor in the added labor and set-up costs for the run, the Ubuntu finished product costs them more than a finished Windows box.

The fact that they can sell the set-up I posted on the first page of this thread for $329, is evidence that they're eating much of those additional production costs as part of their investment to make this program work.

[gn2]

How does that work? You can get a refund on the Windows OS if you call for it before you even boot it up (ie accept the EULA)? Do you know how much that refund is?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6144782.stm

You just have to refuse the EULA terms at first boot when asked.

In the story in the above link the refund was for £55 ($110 US) which was slightly less than the retail cost of an OEM licence at the time, roughly £65 ($130 US)

[linuxlizard]

This thing about hundreds off a manufactured pc if you don't get windows is a little unrealistic, at least in the case of windowsxp.
I've worked in retail- the manufacturer isn't passing the retail cost of windows on to you when you buy a pc. Typical markup for most retail goods in the industry I worked in was a minimum of 2x, most often 2.5 times and sometimes 3x cost from what wholesale cost was. Manufacturers of pcs are purchasing windows wholesale. They probably mark up less than retail- maybe even hardly anything on pcs they sell because they want to make money on the hardware, not on windows. Windows itself just helps them sell their hardware.

That's why cost difference on a pc preloaded with windows is going to be not very high compared to a pc preloaded with linux. The manufacturer probably passes on the cost of windows wholesale with very little if any markup to the end consumer, rather than the cost of windows retail, which would inflate the price of the pc and consumers would feel they were paying too much for hardware.

That means if I can go to my local retailer and buy windows xp oem for $99 the pc manufacturer is probably paying $50 or less. And that's probably the difference that should be reflected in the end hardware product (the pc). Something in that neighborhood.

[ResumeMan]

Another thing I haven't seen mentioned on this thread is bloatware. The OEMs install a whole bunch of extraneous crap on consumer Windows PCs, like AOL and etc. (I can't remember what was on my last PC but it was a bunch of garbage). I gather that the manufacturers get kickbacks from AOL and the like, which largely offsets the Win license fees. They (I assume...?) don't install that stuff on Linux PCs, so it ends up being something of a wash.

In any case I've found my computer vendor -- ZaReason; they're local (to me), small and responsive, comitted to FOSS, and started from a group of people who volunteered for an ewaste recycling group; even if it costs a few bucks more, what's not to like??

[steeleyuk]

I recently got a Dellbuntu laptop for my mum for Christmas. IMO it was worth the extra cost for these reasons:

Everything was guaranteed to work.
Getting one was helping to support Linux.
What I spent extra would probably save me time and money in support and fixing problems with viruses and malware.
The extra cost was probably the same as it would have cost to buy other applications, like virus scanners and firewalls.

Plus, on Linux I don't get any of the crap installed like Norton ;)

[Linuxratty]

Places to buy preloaded linux systems.

http://www.zareason.com/shop/home.php

http://www.linspire.com/featured_partner/featured_partner.php?se

nt=1&country=1


And more:
http://www.linuxcertified.com/linux-laptop-refurbished.html
http://www.linux.org/vendor/system/laptop.html
http://store.madtux.org/product_info.php?cPath=57&products_id=248
http://lxer.com/module/db/viewby.php?uid=120&sort=120&offset=0&dbn=14

[steeleyuk]

http://linuxemporium.co.uk/products/hardware/

If its not already been posted somewhere. They do laptops, wireless cards, keyboards, etc...