Opera files complaint against Microsoft

[p_quarles]

Just saw this on Technocrat:
http://technocrat.net/d/2007/12/13/31532

Short summary for those too lazy to click: Opera is filing a complaint with the European Commission that would ask Microsoft to both 1) either stop bundling MSIE with Windows, or to begin bundling alternate browers; and 2) implement a version of the IE browser that adheres to open web standards. There argument is that dual "standards" makes more work for web designers, thereby constituting a form of lock-in/anti-competition.

Anyway, I've done enough web design (not a pro by any means, though) to know that this is true: a page that looks and acts similarly in Opera, Gecko, and Webkit/KHTML is by no means guaranteed to work right in Internet Explorer. By the same token, many sites designed for MSIE will either look bad or not work at all on open standards-based browsers.

My question is just this: how many people experience enough problems with this that they need to keep Internet Explorer available for use?

[Samhain13]

My question is just this: how many people experience enough problems with this that they need to keep Internet Explorer available for use?

You got one here. And thank goodness for IEs4Linux. But I still have to run to the near-by Internet cafes to check my work before I submit them.

I hope that Opera wins this one as well because IE's adherence to open standards will really make my life a lot easier. :)

[RAV TUX]

Just saw this on Technocrat:
http://technocrat.net/d/2007/12/13/31532

Short summary for those too lazy to click: Opera is filing a suit in the EU that would ask Microsoft to both 1) either stop bundling MSIE with Windows, or to begin bundling alternate browers; and 2) implement a version of the IE browser that adheres to open web standards. There argument is that dual "standards" makes more work for web designers, thereby constituting a form of lock-in/anti-competition.

Anyway, I've done enough web design (not a pro by any means, though) to know that this is true: a page that looks and acts similarly in Opera, Gecko, and Webkit/KHTML is by no means guaranteed to work right in Internet Explorer. By the same token, many sites designed for MSIE will either look bad or not work at all on open standards-based browsers.

My question is just this: how many people experience enough problems with this that they need to keep Internet Explorer available for use?

Another good reason to support Opera.

I support them 100% in their cause.

[phrostbyte]

Similar lawsuit was filed against Microsoft in the USA like seven years ago. Microsoft lost that lawsuit but didn't have to unbundle IE from Windows.

What I think should be done is to force Microsoft to unbundle Windows itself from computers. I still believe that I should be able to go into any store, and CHOOSE to buy a computer without Windows on it, or receive a refund for Windows. Because I should not have to pay for an operating system I will not use, and unlike almost everything else in computers (Intel vs AMD, Nvidia vs ATI, etc) it is *NOT* easy to get a prebuilt computer that fits what you want without Windows on it. This is what I think the EC should be focusing on.

[bailout]

I find this story worrying tbh. I don't think Opera has the money to take on MS and MS would ignore any ruling anyway. This will just cost Opera a lot of money in lawyer fees and achieve nothing.

Long-term Opera user.

[23meg]

My question is just this: how many people experience enough problems with this that they need to keep Internet Explorer available for use?

I now use Browsershots (http://browsershots.org/) to check how pages look in IE.

[RAV TUX]

I find this story worrying tbh. I don't think Opera has the money to take on MS and MS would ignore any ruling anyway. This will just cost Opera a lot of money in lawyer fees and achieve nothing.

Long-term Opera user.
Good point but lets hope this does not happen.

[p_quarles]

I now use Browsershots (http://browsershots.org/) to check how pages look in IE.
That's a fantastic site, especially considering how difficult it is to run multiple versions of MSIE beside each other. Thanks for the link.

[Samhain13]

23meg, thanks for the link. I will keep it handy.

[n3tfury]

so dumb to sue. it's their OS, they should be able to bundle what they want with it. i can see how the devs are crying that it's more work, but i voted "other" and will say that i use both FF and IE7 in windows because i feel like it.

[p_quarles]

so dumb to sue. it's their OS, they should be able to bundle what they want with it. i can see how the devs are crying that it's more work, but i voted "other" and will say that i use both FF and IE7 in windows because i feel like it.
It's only "dumb" if the law's not on their side. My understanding of EU antitrust regulations is that the law would favor Opera here.

There are regulations on what all businesses can and can't do. This is kind of like saying "Pete Rose should be able to bet on baseball because it's his money." Antitrust regulations are there for a reason.

[Erik Trybom]

Here's a better link: http://www.opera.com/pressreleases/en/2007/12/13/

What Opera have actually done is to file a complaint to the European Commission, which is not the same as suing anyone. As far as I know, they're not paying one cent for this. On the other hand, they're not guaranteed anything either.

Here's a little more information on what the European Commission does: http://ec.europa.eu/comm/competition/consumers/antitrust_en.html

[n3tfury]

It's only "dumb" if the law's not on their side. My understanding of EU antitrust regulations is that the law would favor Opera here.

There are regulations on what all businesses can and can't do. This is kind of like saying "Pete Rose should be able to bet on baseball because it's his money." Antitrust regulations are there for a reason.

it's their OS. people are probably lucky they even have a CHOICE to install another browser. whole lot of crying if you ask me.

[p_quarles]

Asking the government to enforce antitrust regulations is not crying. I'm afraid I don't see the point you're making.

[n3tfury]

Asking the government to enforce antitrust regulations is not crying. I'm afraid I don't see the point you're making.


1) either stop bundling MSIE with Windows, or to begin bundling alternate browers

i find that bit ridiculous. i've already explained why. 2nd point in your original post makes sense, as i've also already said.

[p_quarles]

i find that bit ridiculous. i've already explained why. 2nd point in your original post makes sense, as i've also already said.
Oh, I see. Just FYI, Microsoft recently settled a case with EU, in which they agreed to pay a big fine for anti-competitive practices related to bundling WMP. I think Opera is leveraging that settlement in this case. But I would much rather see MSIE become more standards-compliant, too. That seems like the better solution.

[23meg]

it's their OS.

But it's not their market.

[bruce89]

I think they should unbundle the rediculous Notepad.

Seriously, Firefox in Ubuntu is in the same situation.

[23meg]

Except at least that it's not tied to the OS like IE, and you don't pay for it.

[bruce89]

and you don't pay for it.

You can do.

Mozilla is really insecure, most things are.

[n3tfury]

Oh, I see. Just FYI, Microsoft recently settled a case with EU, in which they agreed to pay a big fine for anti-competitive practices related to bundling WMP. I think Opera is leveraging that settlement in this case. But I would much rather see MSIE become more standards-compliant, too. That seems like the better solution.

yeah, i know about the WMP ruling, but really, if MS would just follow the standard format for coding, we wouldn't have to even have this discussion.

[n3tfury]

But it's not their market.

i understand that too, but i also think if people want to gripe about a product, don't buy the damn thing.

[Lostincyberspace]

What is all this talk about if you want something done go and do it for Petes sake.

[billgoldberg]

I find it dumb from Opera's side.

Windows is from Microsoft, they can install anything they want into there own OS.

If Microsoft is forced by the EU, they will only have to make an n-version of vista and future OSs. Nobody buys that.

[Prisma]

Well, I don't think a lawsuit is going to save Opera or make it gain market share. Remember what happened to Netscape? They were pushed away by force by Microsoft corporation and the federal authorities in the states did nothing about it back then. MS have a gigantic chest of gold hidden far away in a secret mountain, it is rumoured that is protected by huge trolls, skeletons and all sorts of unimaginable horrors. :)

[Depressed Man]

US =/= EU

The EU has already proven that it's willing to do what the US isn't. Or what the US was doing, and then stops >.>

I could care less if IE is bundled or not bundled. I rather them leave it in. But I would like to see some standards. I always found it stupid that I had to test it in various browsers, especially in various versions of IE just to make sure it worked correctly back when I was doing web design actively. At least IE7 is better then IE6.

[RAV TUX]

I find it dumb from Opera's side.

Windows is from Microsoft, they can install anything they want into there own OS.

This is where you are wrong, it is illegal even in the US for Microsoft to do this.

I was just discussing this today with a lawyer who specializes in this.

If you were to do your research and see how many laws Microsoft has broken you would not ethically or morally use any of their products.

They are killing their competition by doing this and the legal system can not act fast enough.

On Operas defense it is great PR, the press coverage only will bring them business enough.

[Espreon]

Yeah but, if M$ bundled Winblow$ with an alternative browser like FF, it will become the new IE most likely. What the EC should focus on is so that computers are not bundled with any OS, unless the buyer desires an OS to be put on said comp.

[happysmileman]

if MS would just follow the standard format for coding, we wouldn't have to even have this discussion.

But they aren't following the standard format for coding, so we are having this discussion. When MS release a browser that supports open standards, I for one will stop talking about it.

[LaRoza]

Remember the browser wars?

Everyone adding features trying to get the most users?

That is over, MS, now we have standards. Follow them.

If MS wants to have features in their browser Windows specific, fine, but don't try to replace the standards, which Microsoft is part of.

[racoq]

if the EU gives reason to Opera what's next? Force Apple to not bundle Safari by default on MacOSX? For me a OS feels kind of crippled without a browser. So i don't quite agree on the first point on Opera. It's their os. If you think otherwise then other OS specially linux distributions should not bundle firefox, because it is noy 100% compatible with pages done for Opera, and it's harming Opera.

However i agree with the second point, with Opera, i do some webdesign, and i know how it is a pain in the a** to make websites that already look good on firefox, look the same in IE.

Microsoft is not only locking people by not innovating, but is also inviting the lazy webdesigners to design sites only to IE, because doing the same thing with other browses takes twice the time.

[blastus]

I think they should unbundle the rediculous Notepad.

Good riddance to notepad. That piece of crap doesn't even properly support UTF encodings.


Seriously, Firefox in Ubuntu is in the same situation.

Seriously, that argument is old and tiresome. Internet Explorer is bound to Windows whereas Firefox is not bound to Ubuntu. Internet Explorer cannot be uninstalled from Windows whereas Firefox can be uninstalled from Ubuntu.

[p_quarles]

if the EU gives reason to Opera what's next? Force Apple to not bundle Safari by default on MacOSX? For me a OS feels kind of crippled without a browser. So i don't quite agree on the first point on Opera. It's their os. If you think otherwise then other OS specially linux distributions should not bundle firefox, because it is noy 100% compatible with pages done for Opera, and it's harming Opera.
Not so. The differences in rendering between Safari, Opera, Firefox, Konqueror, Epiphany, etc. are all cosmetic. MSIE is integrated into the Windows platform so tightly that it's impossible for these browsers to replicate some of IE's proprietary "features." This is the difference between MSIE and the standards-compliant browsers.

That's directly related to the lock-in: MS derives an anti-competitive advantage from the fact that there is a strong disincentive for the average user to opt for a different browser.

I don't think anyone has a problem with bundling web browsers into a 'net ready system. After all, the Nintendo Wii ships with Opera preinstalled. The problem is just the fact that Microsoft is using its preexisting ubiquity to hold onto the market through sheer inertia. If they implemented a standards-compliant browser, free competition would actually be possible.

[bruce89]

Good riddance to notepad. That piece of crap doesn't even properly support UTF encodings.

Fair enough.


Internet Explorer cannot be uninstalled from Windows whereas Firefox can be uninstalled from Ubuntu.

Hmm:


bruce@Scooby-Dum:~/Code$ apt-cache rdepends firefox
firefox
Reverse Depends:
epiphany-gecko
liferea
|torbutton-extension
|mozilla-openoffice.org
firefox-dom-inspector
firefox-dom-inspector
ubufox
|openoffice.org
liferea
firefox-libthai
firefox-gnome-support
firefox-dev
firefox-dbg
epiphany-browser
zekr
|tiemu
|sun-java6-plugin
|sun-java5-plugin
|mozilla-mplayer
j2re1.4-mozilla-plugin
flashplugin-nonfree
|xfig-doc
|wysihtml-el
|wmnetselect
|webhttrack
ubuntustudio-desktop
|tilp
peercast-handlers
|nip2
mythbuntu-desktop
|mozplugger
|mozilla-venkman
|mozilla-tabextensions
mozilla-stumbleupon
mozilla-plugin-pcmanx
|mozilla-openoffice.org
|mozilla-nukeimage
mozilla-livehttpheaders
|mozilla-imagezoom
|mozilla-firefox-adblock
|mozilla-diggler
mozilla-ctxextensions
|mozilla-bookmarksftp
|mozilla-bonobo
|mozilla-biofox
mozilla-beagle
monodevelop
miro
listen
|lastfm
junior-internet
hunspell-uz
hunspell-de-de
hunspell-de-ch
hunspell-de-at
|gcjwebplugin-4.2
|gcjwebplugin-4.1
galeon
firefox-webdeveloper
firefox-webdeveloper
|firefox-sage
firefox-launchpad-plugin
firefox-greasemonkey
firefox-greasemonkey
firefox-dom-inspector
firefox-dom-inspector
|fibusql
|endeavour2
education-standalone
|centerim-utf8
|centerim-fribidi
|centerim
yelp
xubuntu-desktop
|xdg-utils
ubuntu-serverguide
ubuntu-desktop
ubufox
packaging-guide
|openoffice.org
mozilla-firefox-locale-zu
mozilla-firefox-locale-zu
|mozilla-firefox-locale-zu
mozilla-firefox-locale-zh-tw
mozilla-firefox-locale-zh-tw
|mozilla-firefox-locale-zh-tw
mozilla-firefox-locale-zh-cn
mozilla-firefox-locale-zh-cn
|mozilla-firefox-locale-zh-cn
mozilla-firefox-locale-tr-tr
mozilla-firefox-locale-tr-tr
|mozilla-firefox-locale-tr-tr
mozilla-firefox-locale-sv-se
mozilla-firefox-locale-sv-se
|mozilla-firefox-locale-sv-se
mozilla-firefox-locale-sl-si
mozilla-firefox-locale-sl-si
|mozilla-firefox-locale-sl-si
mozilla-firefox-locale-sk
mozilla-firefox-locale-sk
|mozilla-firefox-locale-sk
mozilla-firefox-locale-ru-ru
mozilla-firefox-locale-ru-ru
|mozilla-firefox-locale-ru-ru
mozilla-firefox-locale-ro-ro
mozilla-firefox-locale-ro-ro
|mozilla-firefox-locale-ro-ro
mozilla-firefox-locale-pt-pt
mozilla-firefox-locale-pt-pt
|mozilla-firefox-locale-pt-pt
mozilla-firefox-locale-pt-br
mozilla-firefox-locale-pt-br
|mozilla-firefox-locale-pt-br
mozilla-firefox-locale-pl-pl
mozilla-firefox-locale-pl-pl
|mozilla-firefox-locale-pl-pl
mozilla-firefox-locale-pa-in
mozilla-firefox-locale-pa-in
|mozilla-firefox-locale-pa-in
mozilla-firefox-locale-nso
mozilla-firefox-locale-nso
|mozilla-firefox-locale-nso
mozilla-firefox-locale-nn-no
mozilla-firefox-locale-nn-no
|mozilla-firefox-locale-nn-no
mozilla-firefox-locale-nl-nl
mozilla-firefox-locale-nl-nl
|mozilla-firefox-locale-nl-nl
mozilla-firefox-locale-nb-no
mozilla-firefox-locale-nb-no
|mozilla-firefox-locale-nb-no
mozilla-firefox-locale-mn
mozilla-firefox-locale-mn
|mozilla-firefox-locale-mn
mozilla-firefox-locale-mk-mk
mozilla-firefox-locale-mk-mk
|mozilla-firefox-locale-mk-mk
mozilla-firefox-locale-lt
mozilla-firefox-locale-lt
|mozilla-firefox-locale-lt
mozilla-firefox-locale-ku
mozilla-firefox-locale-ku
|mozilla-firefox-locale-ku
mozilla-firefox-locale-ko
mozilla-firefox-locale-ko
|mozilla-firefox-locale-ko
mozilla-firefox-locale-ka-ge
mozilla-firefox-locale-ka-ge
|mozilla-firefox-locale-ka-ge
mozilla-firefox-locale-ja-jp
mozilla-firefox-locale-ja-jp
|mozilla-firefox-locale-ja-jp
mozilla-firefox-locale-it-it
mozilla-firefox-locale-it-it
|mozilla-firefox-locale-it-it
mozilla-firefox-locale-hu-hu
mozilla-firefox-locale-hu-hu
|mozilla-firefox-locale-hu-hu
mozilla-firefox-locale-he-il
mozilla-firefox-locale-he-il
|mozilla-firefox-locale-he-il
mozilla-firefox-locale-gu-in
mozilla-firefox-locale-gu-in
|mozilla-firefox-locale-gu-in
mozilla-firefox-locale-ga-ie
mozilla-firefox-locale-ga-ie
|mozilla-firefox-locale-ga-ie
mozilla-firefox-locale-fy-nl
mozilla-firefox-locale-fy-nl
|mozilla-firefox-locale-fy-nl
mozilla-firefox-locale-fr-fr
mozilla-firefox-locale-fr-fr
|mozilla-firefox-locale-fr-fr
mozilla-firefox-locale-fi-fi
mozilla-firefox-locale-fi-fi
|mozilla-firefox-locale-fi-fi
mozilla-firefox-locale-eu
mozilla-firefox-locale-eu
|mozilla-firefox-locale-eu
mozilla-firefox-locale-es-es
mozilla-firefox-locale-es-es
|mozilla-firefox-locale-es-es
mozilla-firefox-locale-es-ar
mozilla-firefox-locale-es-ar
|mozilla-firefox-locale-es-ar
mozilla-firefox-locale-en-gb
mozilla-firefox-locale-en-gb
|mozilla-firefox-locale-en-gb
mozilla-firefox-locale-el
mozilla-firefox-locale-el
|mozilla-firefox-locale-el
mozilla-firefox-locale-de-de
mozilla-firefox-locale-de-de
|mozilla-firefox-locale-de-de
mozilla-firefox-locale-da-dk
mozilla-firefox-locale-da-dk
|mozilla-firefox-locale-da-dk
mozilla-firefox-locale-cs-cz
mozilla-firefox-locale-cs-cz
|mozilla-firefox-locale-cs-cz
mozilla-firefox-locale-ca
mozilla-firefox-locale-ca
|mozilla-firefox-locale-ca
mozilla-firefox-locale-bg-bg
mozilla-firefox-locale-bg-bg
|mozilla-firefox-locale-bg-bg
mozilla-firefox-locale-be
mozilla-firefox-locale-be
|mozilla-firefox-locale-be
mozilla-firefox-locale-ar
mozilla-firefox-locale-ar
|mozilla-firefox-locale-ar
mozilla-firefox-locale-af
mozilla-firefox-locale-af
|mozilla-firefox-locale-af
liferea
libgecko2.0-cil
gobuntu-desktop
firefox-themes-ubuntu
firefox-libthai
firefox-gnome-support
firefox-dev
firefox-dbg
|epydoc-doc
epiphany-browser
edubuntu-desktop
devhelp

I'm not saying IE is good, I'm saying a browser has to be included, so would people moan if it was Gecko based?

[new2*buntu]

After all, the Nintendo Wii ships with Opera preinstalled. The problem is just the fact that Microsoft is using its preexisting ubiquity to hold onto the market through sheer inertia. If they implemented a standards-compliant browser, free competition would actually be possible.

What? Where? How do I find Opera on my Wii?

[LookTJ]

What? Where? How do I find Opera on my Wii?
go to the wii shop and download it for free.

[siciliancasanova]

so dumb to sue. it's their OS, they should be able to bundle what they want with it. i can see how the devs are crying that it's more work, but i voted "other" and will say that i use both FF and IE7 in windows because i feel like it.

I agree with your sentiment on being able to bundle whatever they want with the OS but I disagree with what you say about the devs.

Much like how houses are built, the builder can put whatever type of products they want in the house but there are standards and codes to make sure that all houses are built a certain way.

It is not a situation of where there is a big difference. Like a .gif vs. a .raw image file. Where each one displays the same thing but serve completely different purposes.

The average user when they choose their browser they do not think about how the page is displayed. They probably don't even realize that without extra work pages are displayed differently in different browsers.

[p_quarles]

go to the wii shop and download it for free.
Oops. I thought I'd heard it was actually bundled with the system, but I guess it's just easy to get.

[jasay]

go to the wii shop and download it for $5.
There fixed it for you. Unfortunately I bought my Wii on the last day Opera was free (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Channel) (June 30th) and didn't try to download it until the next day.

[new2*buntu]

go to the wii shop and download it for free.
Thanks


Oops. I thought I'd heard it was actually bundled with the system, but I guess it's just easy to get.

Same.

[mdsmedia]

i understand that too, but i also think if people want to gripe about a product, don't buy the damn thing.Some of us don't have a choice about buying a product (in this case, Windows.

I'm a tax accountant and because Windows is ubiquitous my tax software (and any other tax software) is only written for Windows.

Tax Agents are able to access a "Tax Agents' Portal" on the tax office website to access client details, lodge forms etc. Because Windows and IE are ubiquitous, I can only access the portal from Windows, and only do a lot of stuff on the portal with IE.

The tax office assumes everyone uses Windows and IE, so they only cater to Windows and IE.

Wherever possible I access and do stuff with Firefox, but can't do it from Linux because of the digital certificate residing in Windows.

Give a lot of fiddling, and a fair bit more knowledge than I have, I MIGHT be able to create a workaround which would enable me to do some of it in Linux on Firefox or Opera.

Just saying "if you don't like it don't buy it" is narrow minded.

As for "it's their OS....they should be able to do what they want with it", the fact is, as 23meg put it so succinctly, they have a virtual monopoly and some people are forced to use Windows, and IE, because of that virtual monopoly. It also makes it more difficult for the competition to get a foothold in the market.