CNR for Ubuntu 7.10 available

[p_quarles]

Doesn't look like anyone has posted this yet (if I missed it, please merge this thread):
http://technocrat.net/d/2007/12/4/31129

Haven't tried it, but I did note that an Ubuntu client is available.

What do you think?

[Bannor]

could someone provide some insight as to whether this is a good product to use to download software?

[zeller]

When I tried to install the client it crashed my laptop. Upon rebooting, some configurations and my awn bar were totally messed up.

Another reboot and everything is working fine.

I'm not about to try another install with CNR.

[p_quarles]

When I tried to install the client it crashed my laptop. Upon rebooting, some configurations and my awn bar were totally messed up.

Another reboot and everything is working fine.

I'm not about to try another install with CNR.
Yeah, that's always the problem with stuff like this: you don't know how much work the packager put into dependency handling. This is still beta, which is why I'm hesitant to try it.

That said, I know that people have been asking for an Ubuntu version of this for a while.

[S3Indiana]

Yeah, that's always the problem with stuff like this: you don't know how much work the packager put into dependency handling. This is still beta, which is why I'm hesitant to try it.

That said, I know that people have been asking for an Ubuntu version of this for a while.CNR.com (http://www.cnr.com) uses an exact mirror of the native ubuntu repository (adding packages not available through the stock repositories), so installing a package that exists in the native repository should produce the same results usng the CNR Client...

[Chaz_UK]

Trying it out now.

What's the worst that can happen? :)

[S3Indiana]

Trying it out now.

What's the worst that can happen? :)I think the worst has been greatly exaggerated :)...

[23meg]

What do you think?

*yawn*

[spamzilla]

What's the point of it when we have add/remove programs, synaptics and the terminal? It seems rather redundant to me...

[23meg]

Just wait until someone argues that Canonical is evil because they don't update the repositories of stable releases with new versions of apps, and that CNR is the panacea. Note that if you disagree, you'll be among those responsible for the fact that "Linux will never make it".

[frup]

Just wait until someone argues that Canonical is evil because they don't update the repositories of stable releases with new versions of apps, and that CNR is the panacea. Note that if you disagree, you'll be among those responsible for the fact that "Linux will never make it".

:D lol.

My Experience with CNR on Linspire 2 or 3 years ago was that it broke frequently leaving the system quite unusable.

As for the updated apps, a community run backports project or Getdeb can easily handle that for those who really want/need updates.

[Flyingjester]

Just wait until someone argues that Canonical is evil because they don't update the repositories of stable releases with new versions of apps, and that CNR is the panacea. Note that if you disagree, you'll be among those responsible for the fact that "Linux will never make it".
:lolflag:

[S3Indiana]

Just wait until someone argues that Canonical is evil because they don't update the repositories of stable releases with new versions of apps, and that CNR is the panacea. Note that if you disagree, you'll be among those responsible for the fact that "Linux will never make it".CNR.com (http://www.cnr.com) is more than a mirror of any available sources; the goals making Linux software available to all Linux users (with many enhancements (http://community.cnr.com/index.jspa) not available elsewhere)...

[jsmidt]

I've tried it out and it seems to work just fine. I think this could be a good.

Different things are good for different people and CNR will be good for some.

[bruce89]

As for the updated apps, a community run backports project or Getdeb can easily handle that for those who really want/need updates.

Bwhahahaha. (https://launchpad.net/~bruce89/+archive)

[the yawner]

How is it that Wine is under category Games: Puzzles? Did I miss anything? I mean, I haven't used Wine for a while now. Heh.

[S3Indiana]

How is it that Wine is under category Games: Puzzles? Did I miss anything? I mean, I haven't used Wine for a while now. Fixed the category (http://cnr.com/product/productOverview.seam?productId=17588#Category), but may take awhile to update the product grid (xdg is in inaccurate science, so any registered user can correct errors like that)...

[plun]

What's the point of it when we have add/remove programs, synaptics and the terminal? It seems rather redundant to me...

Well, check all commercial software on CNRs list, take a few pages and check Ubuntus repo for those apps.

http://www.cnr.com/index.seam

This is one important key to make Linux to grow, not FSF fundamentalism. IMHO

When we are many more users, > 5%, many more devs (it comes with many more users) the FSF dream can be real.

We will probably see a lot of FUD about CNR as with Automatix which also makes it easy to install commercial software.

[sloggerkhan]

http://www.kiyut.com/products/sketsa/screenshots.html
http://www.cnr.com/product/productOverview.seam?productId=14777&actionMethod=productGrid.xhtml%3AproductDetails.se lectProduct&conversationId=49517

Okay.... so who buys things like this?
Looks like a bad version of inkscape that costs money, lol.....

I think for most of us, CNR will be fairly useless, at least the way it is currently.

[RemmyLee]

Lindows... err... Linspire? Why? I am not a distribution purist that thinks one flavor of Linux is better than another, but Linspire is generally despised no matter what distribution you are using.

Now I am all for the advancement of easily obtainable commercial software in Linux, but I honestly believe that getting in bed with Linspire will have a negative effect. I pray I am wrong however.

[undine]

I am not opposed to CNR in principle, but I just don't see the point.

[S3Indiana]

http://www.kiyut.com/products/sketsa/screenshots.html
http://www.cnr.com/product/productOverview.seam?productId=14777&actionMethod=productGrid.xhtml%3AproductDetails.se lectProduct&conversationId=49517

Okay.... so who buys things like this?
Looks like a bad version of inkscape that costs money,

I think for most of us, CNR will be fairly useless, at least the way it is currently.Just curious why having a choice between non-commercial and commercial software is unacceptable (there are choices in many other decisions you make)? If the non-commercial version is superior to the commercial version, wouldn't that entice the developer to improve their version; thereby, improving Linux applications overall? Wouldn't Linux overall be better if developers got paid for the code they create???

[S3Indiana]

I am not opposed to CNR in principle, but I just don't see the point.Doesn't the overall experience at CNR.com (http://www.cnr.com) present software (and feedback) better than anything else that exists? Pls. browse the entire site before responding. Remember the goal is one-stop access to all Linux applications for many Linux users...

[undine]

Doesn't the overall experience at CNR.com (http://www.cnr.com) present software (and feedback) better than anything else that exists? Pls. browse the entire site before responding. Remember the goal is one-stop access to all Linux applications for many Linux users...

I did. But it didn't seem any better than what's already on offer with Synaptic.

[S3Indiana]

I did. But it didn't seem any better than what's already on offer with Synaptic.Synaptic provides users with the capability to improve the content on packages? Synaptic allows discussion between community members? Synaptic has private messaging between developers and users? CNR.com (http://www.cnr.com) is much more than downloading and installing packages. Isn't community the core of this distribution???

[forrestcupp]

:D lol.

My Experience with CNR on Linspire 2 or 3 years ago was that it broke frequently leaving the system quite unusable.

As for the updated apps, a community run backports project or Getdeb can easily handle that for those who really want/need updates.
Yeah, but 2 or 3 years ago Ubuntu was pretty crappy, too. A lot changes in that amount of time. Do you remember Hoary Hedgehog?

But honestly, the things I was excited about were commercial software support and support for software that isn't in the repos. The commercial software they seem to have isn't too spectacular. And as for my 2nd point, they use Ubuntu repos, so your not getting anything that's not there.

[Linuxratty]

could someone provide some insight as to whether this is a good product to use to download software?

When I used Linspire and freespire it was...it screwed up rarely.
try it out if you want and see what you think.

[jrusso2]

It would be nice if they offered a commercial DVD player for those who wanted a legal solution to playing DVD.

[zeller]

Who else here uses Linux Mint (based on Ubuntu)? They have a very good working Software Portal that is set up nearly the same as cnr and IT WORKS. I have yet to have a crash or software fail to install properly while using it.

So what's the difference between Linux Mint's Software Portal and CNR?

[undine]

Synaptic provides users with the capability to improve the content on packages? Synaptic allows discussion between community members? Synaptic has private messaging between developers and users? CNR.com (http://www.cnr.com) is much more than downloading and installing packages. Isn't community the core of this distribution???

We have the forums for that lol

[Linuxratty]

Trying it out now.

What's the worst that can happen? :)

i can hang up and try to download the same program over and over for DAYS...That's the worse that ever happened to me.

[S3Indiana]

We have the forums for that lolWhat percentage of the userbase even knows about the forums...
Ubuntu Forums Statistics - Members: 447,618

[S3Indiana]

Who else here uses Linux Mint (based on Ubuntu)? They have a very good working Software Portal that is set up nearly the same as cnr and IT WORKS. I have yet to have a crash or software fail to install properly while using it.

So what's the difference between Linux Mint's Software Portal and CNR?Linux Mint (http://www.linuxmint.com/blog/?p=101) thinks there's value in CNR.com (http://www.cnr.com)...

[Linuxratty]

It would be nice if they offered a commercial DVD player for those who wanted a legal solution to playing DVD.

They have it,I think it's $50.00,if I remember correctly.

[eentonig]

hmmm, what strikes me the most, is that the site navigation seems crippled for a fresh Gutsy install.

I just upgraded to Gutsy (reinstall) and haven't bothered yet to tune Firefox, but when I open the CNR website, I can't follow the links to the software categories.

On IE at work, the site worked fine ....

[S3Indiana]

hmmm, what strikes me the most, is that the site navigation seems crippled for a fresh Gutsy install.

I just upgraded to Gutsy (reinstall) and haven't bothered yet to tune Firefox, but when I open the CNR website, I can't follow the links to the software categories.

On IE at work, the site worked fine ....For clarification, meaning the CNR.com (http://www.cnr.com) categories don't expand correctly???

[23meg]

When clicking on the subcategories, sometimes nothing happens, and sometimes it works correctly.

[jrusso2]

They have it,I think it's $50.00,if I remember correctly.

AFAIK it only works with the older version of Linspire/Freespire not the Ubuntu Feisty based ones.

[RemmyLee]

@S3Indiana There are 447,436 members registered here.12,818 were online at one time. Honestly Ken (http://wiki.freespire.org/index.php/User:Ken), I think it's great that you are trying to promote your companies endeavor, but at least let people know that you work for Linspire.

As for me, the website is pointless. I have my package manager for common applications. I have ./configure, make && make install for applications not in the package database, and I have a great community here for answering any questions I may have.

As for Linspire, up until a year and a half ago, anyone using it had to pay for Click-N'-Run services and there is still the CNR Gold Services which really offers no added value. You can obtain technical support from the company you purchase you application from directly and although Gold offers "discounts" for premium software, I would rather pay for it directly and support the developer.

I suppose it's the way Linspire has commercialized the simple task of installing a program that really irks me. It's the reason I simply can't take this new endeavor serious or show interest in it other than resentment.

[zeller]

Linux Mint (http://www.linuxmint.com/blog/?p=101) thinks there's value in CNR.com (http://www.cnr.com)...

I didn't ask if they saw value in it. :P

I wanted to know what the difference is. Is there one?

[forrestcupp]

Who else here uses Linux Mint (based on Ubuntu)? They have a very good working Software Portal that is set up nearly the same as cnr and IT WORKS. I have yet to have a crash or software fail to install properly while using it.

So what's the difference between Linux Mint's Software Portal and CNR?

I just installed Mint yesterday and I have to say I'm pretty impressed. The only thing that was a pain is that I have a new model ATI card. But that is a pain no matter what distro you use.

I wasn't really impressed with the Software Portal that you mentioned, though. The difference is that Linux Mint's software portal only has about 75-78 apps to download (I can't remember the exact number). Some of those apps are available in Synaptic. That makes me wonder what the point is.

[treris]

I'm just afraid I'm not seeing the point of having cnr, most of its packages for ubuntu seem to be coming out of the ubuntu repositories anyway, with a considerable delay as well.

Take firefox for instance, through cnr it's only available, appearantly, for feisty and then only version 2.0.0.8 while the gutsy repo's already have 2.0.0.11 available.

I suppose it's just me

[Vadi]

That site looks iffy.

Wine only gets a rating of 1.5, while I think it's one of the best linux-based projects out there (requent releases, large community, commercial backing).

[RemmyLee]

I guess my core issue with CNR.com and Linspire in general is the deal they made with Microsoft.

For those who aren't familiar with it:
http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS9642338710.html

What it means:
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2007072014373817

It's things like this that damage the linux community and a social package manager isn't going to make up for it.

[S3Indiana]

@S3Indiana There are 447,436 members registered here.12,818 were online at one time. Honestly Ken (http://wiki.freespire.org/index.php/User:Ken), I think it's great that you are trying to promote your companies endeavor, but at least let people know that you work for Linspire.

As for me, the website is pointless. I have my package manager for common applications. I have ./configure, make && make install for applications not in the package database, and I have a great community here for answering any questions I may have.

As for Linspire, up until a year and a half ago, anyone using it had to pay for Click-N'-Run services and there is still the CNR Gold Services which really offers no added value. You can obtain technical support from the company you purchase you application from directly and although Gold offers "discounts" for premium software, I would rather pay for it directly and support the developer.

I suppose it's the way Linspire has commercialized the simple task of installing a program that really irks me. It's the reason I simply can't take this new endeavor serious or show interest in it other than resentment.First, sorry for the inaccurate representation, I corrected my post (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=3903939#post3903939) (other Linux forums have 509849 registered users - doesn't change the percentage of the userbase that visits forums is insignificant). Second, I've been using (http://forum.linspire.com/viewtopic.php?p=40862#40862) CNR since 2002 (as a user). Lastly, the advantage of CNR.com (http://www.cnr.com/) is one-stop access for Linux applications to research, compare, discuss (http://community.cnr.com/index.jspa), download and install applications (why is that bad, and where else does this exist)...

[Vadi]

I don't understand how can an open-source project add themself there. It seems to be geared towards companies-only, as their partner form suggests...

[S3Indiana]

I didn't ask if they saw value in it. :P

I wanted to know what the difference is. Is there one?Sorry, the ability to collaborate (http://community.cnr.com/index.jspa) on packages and purchase commercial titles (Filter by Commercial Software) for two...

[zeller]

I just installed Mint yesterday and I have to say I'm pretty impressed. The only thing that was a pain is that I have a new model ATI card. But that is a pain no matter what distro you use.

I wasn't really impressed with the Software Portal that you mentioned, though. The difference is that Linux Mint's software portal only has about 75-78 apps to download (I can't remember the exact number). Some of those apps are available in Synaptic. That makes me wonder what the point is.

I'm using 4.0 (Daryna) and am very pleased with it. Yeah, the ATI cards are a bit wonky no matter which. I got it working with Compiz-Fusion through just by changing my xorg.conf file to "radeon" driver and commenting out a line that has my ATI x600 card improperly blacklisted for no good reason. When I enable the restricted driver my system just crashes, so that's a no go there. Hasn't crashed for no reason, or at all, for that matter.

Yes, the Software Portal does lack the quantity of apps, but I think only one person is configuring them a little at a time. It's a point and click solution that works for some. But it does work. Yeah, most of them are in Synaptic, so it's no big deal if they don't add newer software that often. I don't know what else to say about it other than, "There's more than one way to skin a cat." But we all know that anyway since we all use Linux.

[zeller]

Sorry, the ability to collaborate (http://community.cnr.com/index.jspa) on packages and purchase commercial titles (Filter by Commercial Software) for two...

I'm beginning to understand what they are trying to do:


Lastly, the advantage of CNR.com is one-stop access for Linux applications to research, compare, discuss, download and install applications... ...for the most popular distros only. :(

CNR is just a bigger version of Linux Mint's Software Portal. Or rather, the opposite is true as well. I just don't think there are many who want to "log in" to the LM Software Portal just to review an app. Few have. CNR is just more broad concerning the amount of people it caters to. Still, it didn't work for me. SP did. Oh well.

[Vadi]

Well it's a good site from the side that they're attracting commercial development for Linux.

But I still can't figure out how to add an open-source project there :|

[RemmyLee]

doesn't change the percentage of the userbase that visits forums is insignificant

And yet you are inviting people to your forums.

As far as insignificant goes:

Let's compare:
ubuntuforums.org -Threads: 617,661, Posts: 3,897,918
community.cnr.com - Threads 15, Posts, 51

http://traffic.alexa.com/graph?c=1&f=555555&u=ubuntuforums.org&u=cnr.com&r=3m&y=r&z=3&h=300&w=610

Face it, the truth behind this site is not to offer a package manage available to the masses, it's to offer commercial software for sale in which your company takes a percentage. Kevin Carmony said it himself,
CNR is a free service, but users have the option of purchasing commercial products and services. We share that revenue with the vendors of these products. This is the main source of revenue for Linspire, so expanding the number of users should increase our sales revenue.

Source (http://www.libervis.com/article/ubuntu_cnr_com_and_world_domination)

It's the main source of imcome for Linspire. While it may be of value for Linspire users, it's completely useless to distributions that have their own package managers. And Ubuntu has a tight knit community of users ranging in experience.

So basically, CNR.com is a big advertisement to get you to purchase software from Linspire, so they get their cut, instead of purchasing it directly from the developer, supporting their work.

Also, please inform your Vice President of Web Engineering, Cary Harpe (http://www.linkedin.com/pub/1/993/779)r (AKA: TheR00ster (http://digg.com/users/TheR00ster)), viral buzz on digg.com (http://digg.com/linux_unix/Ubuntu_CNR_First_Look) was unfortunately a failure. Apparently, posing as a Joe Somebody to promote your own work isn't a good idea.

[plun]

Well, I just tested CNR and installed Opera without any trouble.
Skype is another app to test.

There are a handfull apps which must be easier to install for newbies.
More important then FSF (for the moment)

:)

[LauraSakura]

personally, I've never had a problem finding a working .deb for something I want or need (whether through the www or a repository). If something is source only, there are often people who will gladly compile something for other users if it is requested. I suppose I'm just saying for my needs, apt-get and synaptic work just fine :)

[Vadi]

Well, I gave their client a try. Installed it, ran it, it opened the cnr.com website for me. Clicked on the 'install' link, and it gave me a .cnr file which was apparently to be opened with... firefox!

Yeah, I think .debs are a whole lot easier.

[S3Indiana]

Wine only gets a rating of 1.5, while I think it's one of the best linux-based projects out there (requent releases, large community, commercial backing).If you think it's better, pls. provide a review (http://www.cnr.com/product/productReviews.seam?productId=17588). Wine doesn't function the same with all configurations, so that's possibly why the users at CNR.com (http://www.cnr.com) rated it low. Developers can only be expected to test a limited number of configurations in-house...

[S3Indiana]

I don't understand how can an open-source project add themself there. It seems to be geared towards companies-only, as their partner form suggests...Publish to CNR (http://www.cnr.com/supportPages/publish.seam) is not limited to commercial products...

[S3Indiana]

Well, I gave their client a try. Installed it, ran it, it opened the cnr.com website for me. Clicked on the 'install' link, and it gave me a .cnr file which was apparently to be opened with... firefox!

Yeah, I think .debs are a whole lot easier.All that dialog box was doing is associating the .cnr file extension with the CNR Client (the extension of the file had to be unique to establish the mime type). The actual download is a standard Debian .deb file...

[S3Indiana]

I'm beginning to understand what they are trying to do:

...for the most popular distros only. :(

CNR is just a bigger version of Linux Mint's Software Portal. Or rather, the opposite is true as well. I just don't think there are many who want to "log in" to the LM Software Portal just to review an app. Few have. CNR is just more broad concerning the amount of people it caters to. Still, it didn't work for me. SP did. Oh well.You might be surprised what distributions are interested in working with CNR.com (http://www.cnr.com)...

[Linuxratty]

AFAIK it only works with the older version of Linspire/Freespire not the Ubuntu Feisty based ones.


Oh what a drag...Oh well....*sigh*

[Linuxratty]

I guess my core issue with CNR.com and Linspire in general is the deal they made with Microsoft.

For those who aren't familiar with it:
http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS9642338710.html

What it means:
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2007072014373817

It's things like this that damage the linux community and a social package manager isn't going to make up for it.

So true...And that's just the tip of the iceberg...
I I left the 'spire because of the Microsoft deal,and a number of other things that just did not sit right with me...That's all water under the bridge,so I'm not going to rehash it...In the end ,however the Microsoft/ 'spire deal left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths and many still feel betrayed and feel a goodly bit of resentment towards the powers that be at the 'spire.
We showed our displeasure by leaving in droves...
A new distro was even started by X-'spires called Klikit, which is based on Kbuntu.
Having used both CNR and Synaptic, I have to say both have their good points. I'm content with Synaptic,but your mileage may vary.

[bruce89]

Linuxratty, S3Indiana, please use the multiquote buttons instead of posting multiple times is sucsession.

[S3Indiana]

Linuxratty, S3Indiana, please use the multiquote buttons instead of posting multiple times is sucsession.Sorry, but doesn't that negatively impact those that read topics threaded (Hybrid or Threaded mode)???

[Vadi]

Publish to CNR (http://www.cnr.com/supportPages/publish.seam) is not limited to commercial products...

Yes.

Now try filling out the form like I did.

[warner]

I was excited for the release of CnR for folks that I convert from Windows, untill Linspire did their MS deal, now I won't touch them with a ten foot pole.

A shame really.

But for all the people posting "whats the point? We already have package manager X"

Jesus people, have you even looked at CnR? More importantly have you looked at CnR from _some_one_elses_ point of view? Yes maybe _you_ know just what you want and Synaptic/Adept/whatever works great for you, maybe _you_ are a command line maven and happily apt-get till the cows come home, or maybe even you are a l33t hax00r and compile everything from source.

But maybe, just maybe, there is a newbie or two out there that needs a DTP program and Googling "DTP Linux" isn't as second nature as breathing, or perhaps being presented with 14,000+ packages and no immediate way to determine which to install or which is the best might seem just a bit daunting.

The fact is CnR is an excellent idea in _many_ ways, with debatable aspects, but if you don't see the value for an informative, highly discoverable software front end for the general population all I can say is...

wtf, wtfu!

All that being said I wish that alternatives that match CnR would start hitting the street, because after the MS deal I won't touch them with a ten foot pole.

But don't miss the value.

[xArv3nx]

And yet you are inviting people to your forums.

As far as insignificant goes:

Let's compare:
ubuntuforums.org -Threads: 617,661, Posts: 3,897,918
community.cnr.com - Threads 15, Posts, 51

http://traffic.alexa.com/graph?c=1&f=555555&u=ubuntuforums.org&u=cnr.com&r=3m&y=r&z=3&h=300&w=610

Face it, the truth behind this site is not to offer a package manage available to the masses, it's to offer commercial software for sale in which your company takes a percentage. Kevin Carmony said it himself,

Source (http://www.libervis.com/article/ubuntu_cnr_com_and_world_domination)

It's the main source of imcome for Linspire. While it may be of value for Linspire users, it's completely useless to distributions that have their own package managers. And Ubuntu has a tight knit community of users ranging in experience.

So basically, CNR.com is a big advertisement to get you to purchase software from Linspire, so they get their cut, instead of purchasing it directly from the developer, supporting their work.

Also, please inform your Vice President of Web Engineering, Cary Harpe (http://www.linkedin.com/pub/1/993/779)r (AKA: TheR00ster (http://digg.com/users/TheR00ster)), viral buzz on digg.com (http://digg.com/linux_unix/Ubuntu_CNR_First_Look) was unfortunately a failure. Apparently, posing as a Joe Somebody to promote your own work isn't a good idea.
Calm down.

EDIT: Need to calm down myself.

[xArv3nx]

I was excited for the release of CnR for folks that I convert from Windows, untill Linspire did their MS deal, now I won't touch them with a ten foot pole.

A shame really.

But for all the people posting "whats the point? We already have package manager X"

Jesus people, have you even looked at CnR? More importantly have you looked at CnR from _some_one_elses_ point of view? Yes maybe _you_ know just what you want and Synaptic/Adept/whatever works great for you, maybe _you_ are a command line maven and happily apt-get till the cows come home, or maybe even you are a l33t hax00r and compile everything from source.

But maybe, just maybe, their is a newbie or two out there that needs a DTP program and Googling "DTP Linux" isn't as second nature as breathing, or perhaps being presented with 14,000+ packages and no immediate way to determine which to install or which is the best might seem just a bit daunting.

The fact is CnR is an excellent idea in _many_ ways, with debatable aspects, but if you don't see the value for an informative, highly discoverable software front end for the general population all I can say is...

wtf, wtfu!

All that being said I wish that alternatives that match CnR would start hitting the street, because after the MS deal I won't touch them with a ten foot pole.

But don't miss the value.
Agreed, except for the Microsoft deal. That won't contribute to CNR.com or Freespire in any way.

I understand if you were purchasing Linspire, though. Even though I still disagree with it.

[warner]

Agreed, except for the Microsoft deal. That won't contribute to CNR.com or Freespire in any way.

I understand if you were purchasing Linspire, though. Even though I still disagree with it.

Unfortunately, I think it does. The collection of mind share and dollars both go to Linspire, who is the "owner" of CnR.com.

Anyone who signs up for CnR is supporting the company that cut a deal with MS.

[Vadi]

There's add/remove for that, and autopackage.org. The idea is -great-, the implementation in my opinion couldn't be worse.

And can someone try and fill out the publisher form at all?

[warner]

There's add/remove for that, and autopackage.org. The idea is -great-, the implementation in my opinion couldn't be worse.

And can someone try and fill out the publisher form at all?

Please, just don't.

Autopackage is addressing a _completely_ different problem, package installation. Apt-get already does this wonderfully which is why it is the back-end to CnR. What CnR does so well is not the _installation_ of software but the _presentation_ of software.

Two totally seperate issues.

Add/Remove shows promise/comes closest but falls short compared to what CnR is attempting.

Try some harder packages such as 3D games (Quake, Doom) or Quasar or Cinlerra (both GPL), Add/Remove and Autopackage get's you nothing.

This was the point of my post, can all the folks who keep saying "What's the point of CnR, just use X" _please_ open their eyes before they repeat the same tired nonsense?

[RemmyLee]

I know that I may have made this a political issue and new adopters tend to not know about the political side of Linux, they just want an Operating System that works.

However, The "at the time" Linspire CEO, Kevin Carmony, at one point called other Linux distributions "High-Brow Pirates". Google it. It's not hard to find. Then they limit your installations to one per computer if you purchased it. How Microsoft of them. This company insults distributions that prefer to keep Linux pure and then they come along 6 months later pretending like none of it ever happened. Now Carmony calls Ubuntu his new home. He is a hypocrite.

The Microsoft deal turned a large number of people against Linspire, and his comments about us being pirates was the final straw. Microsoft paid Linspire a reported 20 million dollars to infect linux with it's DRM codecs, and considering that Linspire is privately held, there is no telling where the money went. So buying from CNR doesn't help the Linux community, it helps Linspire get more money.

It was a deal about greed and apparently the money is gone, so now they are trying to milk it from Ubuntu user's with it's new CNR commercial program.

It's important to remember these things if you want continued freedom with Linux or it will be compromised and eventually you will need a license to perform some of the most mundane tasks, just as you do in Windows.

I understand the need for convenience in Linux, but don't let it come at the cost of your freedom.

[Vadi]

Uh, I don't play Quake and Doom anymore. But I had no trouble getting OpenArena, Alien Arena, Tremulous, Nexuis, UT2004, and the list goes on to work.

And look. I want to add an open-source project to the website. The application form wants the following: "Company, Company URL, Company Type". So can an open-source project add themself there? Clearly, no. Can a company? Clearly, yes.

I'm not against commercialising linux, but I am against commercialing linix + weeding out the open-source projects (per that form).

And just because you can't get a program via repositories, getdeb, or autopackage, it doesn't mean that cnr is the next great choice. Heck, I still can't download any files off that website.

Oh, I found their instructions here: http://www.cnr.com/supportPages/aboutDownloadPluginInstructions.seam#Ubuntu7.10.

It requires 7 steps to get it setup, and 8 to get something. Whereas ./configure, make, and make install for an odd program that doesn't provide packages is only 3 steps.

/dissapointed and unhappy.

[warner]

I know that I may have made this a political issue and new adopters tend to not know about the political side of Linux, they just want an Operating System that works.

However, The "at the time" Linspire CEO, Kevin Carmony, at one point called other Linux distributions "High-Brow Pirates". Google it. It's not hard to find. Then they limit your installations to one per computer if you purchased it. How Microsoft of them. This company insults distributions that prefer to keep Linux pure and then they come along 6 months later pretending like none of it ever happened. Now Carmony calls Ubuntu his new home. He is a hypocrite.

The Microsoft deal turned a large number of people against Linspire, and his comments about us being pirates was the final straw. Microsoft paid Linspire a reported 20 million dollars to infect linux with it's DRM codecs, and considering that Linspire is privately held, there is no telling where the money went. So buying from CNR doesn't help the Linux community, it helps Linspire get more money.

It was a deal about greed and apparently the money is gone, so now they are trying to milk it from Ubuntu user's with it's new CNR commercial program.

It's important to remember these things if you want continued freedom with Linux or it will be compromised and eventually you will need a license to perform some of the most mundane tasks, just as you do in Windows.

I understand the need for convenience in Linux, but don't let it come at the cost of your freedom.

Amen.

[warner]

Uh, I don't play Quake and Doom anymore. But I had no trouble getting OpenArena, Alien Arena, Tremulous, Nexuis, UT2004, and the list goes on to work.

And look. I want to add an open-source project to the website. The application form wants the following: "Company, Company URL, Company Type". So can an open-source project add themself there? Clearly, no. Can a company? Clearly, yes.

I'm not against commercialising linux, but I am against commercialing linix + weeding out the open-source projects (per that form).

And just because you can't get a program via repositories, getdeb, or autopackage, it doesn't mean that cnr is the next great choice. Heck, I still can't download any files off that website.

Oh, I found their instructions here: http://www.cnr.com/supportPages/aboutDownloadPluginInstructions.seam#Ubuntu7.10.

It requires 7 steps to get it setup, and 8 to get something. Whereas ./configure, make, and make install for an odd program that doesn't provide packages is only 3 steps.

/dissapointed and unhappy.

Vadi,

My point isn't that "CnR" is great, it is that what they are trying to "create" is great, _for newbie users_.

You say CnR takes 7 steps to set up, it takes one click (if you have gdebi installed, and you should) and your password. How many clicks did it take you to find out how to do a make, make install?

That is the point.

The command line is only the simplest _after_ you have done the steps to learn what to type at the command line.

CnR represents the farthest point of what would be a least friction approach for _a new user_ to _discover_ what software to install, and for some software, to install as well.

Did you ever have to wrestle with Java or a Proprietary driver, or yes, Codecs.

Not everyone boycotts these things, I don't. I consider it an act of civil disobedience to use them. I don't believe my not using them will change the equation, I do believe switching more people to FOSS will. I can only switch a fraction of the people that I do, if switching means to them reduction in working hardware or loss of media formats.

That is the truth of it, some won't take those hits to switch. And I believe it is imperative to break MS's monopolies.

I am not advocating CnR or Linspire, in fact just the opposite, I condemn their business conduct as regards MS, and their denigration of the ideals of Free Software.

I am however advocating a graphical software tool that is as low friction as CnR is meant to be. Preferably one that is GPL and not providing support to a company that is at odds with community ethics.

And I am definitely advocating that FOSS folks wake up and realize the _value_ of what CnR is trying to create.

Because to the new user it is just as valuable as the shell is to an advanced user, maybe more.

[Vadi]

"My point isn't that "CnR" is great, it is that what they are trying to "create" is great, _for newbie users_."

If you'll read my earlier posts, I said that this was a brilliant idea, but the implementation is botched at the moment. I'll give them time and wait until they fix things up, and explain how is the money generated going to help the linux community (and me in the end).

[aysiu]

You say CnR takes 7 steps to set up, it takes one click (if you have gdebi installed, and you should) and your password. How many clicks did it take you to find out how to do a make, make install?

That is the point.

The command line is only the simplest _after_ you have done the steps to learn what to type at the command line.

CnR represents the farthest point of what would be a least friction approach for _a new user_ to _discover_ what software to install, and for some software, to install as well. That's a false dichotomy. There are not only two choices--CNR or the command-line. (By the way, I have never had to compile from source. Whenever I've used the command-line, it's always been sudo apt-get install.) Add/Remove is pretty easy to use. You go to Applications > Add/Remove and check the boxes for the applications you want.

I know CNR offers some functionality beyond Add/Remove, but it is not the only non-CLI option for installation.


Did you ever have to wrestle with Java or a Proprietary driver, or yes, Codecs. Well, in theory, they shouldn't be too hard to install:
http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/java
http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/nvidia

Same as CNR or easier, depending on how you look at it.

And, honestly, if I had a user who was switching over, I'd give that user Linux Mint or some other distro that had all that proprietary crap already installed. Why make them jump through hoops?

[Vadi]

Sorry, no. sudo apt-get install ubuntu-restrictred-extras folders all your flash and java needs (unless you're on a 64bit machine, then there's a good guide to follow).

Codecs - I just open something in totem, and it finds the right codecs for me.

I just know things are OK the way they are, because I got a bunch of "average users" - as in, people who don't know linux even existed on Ubuntu. All of them stick to it, realise just how better are they off now, and for the most part, the forums + the help wiki solves everything for them, if any. The latest time one of them only got a hold of me was to install shockwave - but that was understandable as shockwave is completely unsupported, and you need to do some voodoo with wine and the windows version of firefox to get it. But I very much doubt cnr would've been able to do it for them.

So as I see, the average user gets by without cnr just fine atm. They, yet, aren't offering something extraordinary.

As for the commercial side - if big companies take interest, there are pre-made installers they can use, like loki's. People there are smart enough to know what are they doing. If it's a middle-size company, and is looking to embrace open-source, they'll definitely find a solution too. Just read linux.com articles.

The only chap left out is a middle- small-company looking to simply profit off linux. Yeah, cnr is just for them (click (http://partners.linspire.com/publisher_programs.php)) - "Reach a worldwide audience"! "Protect your software and IP Present EULA requirements or deliver activation keys."! "Grow software sales Automatically receive periodic payments for your commercial software sales. It's selling while you're sleeping!".

Idea is great, implementation is... fuzzy at best.

[RemmyLee]

Protect your software and IP
Present EULA requirements or deliver activation keys.

IP. Those two letters and the words they are attached to need to be aborted from our vocabularies. There are trademarks, copyrights, and patents. These are all three referred to as "Intellectual Property" when in reality none of them are.

Richard Stallman (http://www.jewcy.com/node/10210?page=0#comment-16086) said it best. For all of you unfamiliar with Stallman, He is the man responsible for Linux Distributions being what they are today.

As far as presenting EULA's. If I find so much as one application on that site that is based on a GPL'd piece of software and is not abiding by the rules of the GPL, they'll enjoy a lawsuit. Do you see what they are doing here? They are trying to promote the restriction of the freedom Linux is built upon.

http://www.gnu.org/
Take a look at it. Learn why your Operating System is what it is.

[forrestcupp]

Try some harder packages such as 3D games (Quake, Doom) or Quasar or Cinlerra (both GPL), Add/Remove and Autopackage get's you nothing.
The possibility that CnR would have Cinelerra was what got me interested in CnR in the first place. Now that it is released, the repos still don't have Cinelerra, and CnR does. Cinelerra is the only viable Free offering for video editing if you want anything more than the basics. I can't believe they never got it in the repos.



And look. I want to add an open-source project to the website. The application form wants the following: "Company, Company URL, Company Type". So can an open-source project add themself there? Clearly, no. Can a company? Clearly, yes.
All you have to do is come up with a company name and set up a website on some free web hosting site like Tripod. You don't have to be a corporation to put something on there. Anyone can have a company. Just name yourself something like Vadi Software.

[S3Indiana]

Now try filling out the form like I did.Sorry, not sure where you had a roadblock with the form (https://partners.linspire.com/publishers_step1.php) (Company and URL is just the Project name and the web site associated with the project - Company Type probably should be modified to include open-source project)...

[RemmyLee]

Cinelerra simply needs to be added to your Repository list.

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/7561/screenshotum0.png

[Vadi]

Uh, okay.

So I lied, in the form, gave a fake company name. Company type "Other".

Step 2!

Question 3: Where do you sell your products?
Online Offline Both

What do I say here? I don't sell them. Not even for $0.

[S3Indiana]

Step 2!

Question 3: Where do you sell your products?
Online Offline Both

What do I say here? I don't sell them. Not even for $0.Do you offer your application at the website entered at Step 1? Yes, sell should be modified to provide...

[Vadi]

Sorry, I didn't quite understand your question.

(and does anybody have any other examples besides cineralla? :|)

[plun]

I know CNR offers some functionality beyond Add/Remove, but it is not the only non-CLI option for installation.

Well, in theory, they shouldn't be too hard to install:
http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/java
http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/nvidia

Same as CNR or easier, depending on how you look at it.

And, honestly, if I had a user who was switching over, I'd give that user Linux Mint or some other distro that had all that proprietary crap already installed. Why make them jump through hoops?

Of course its proprietary crap, but we lives in a world full with this crap.

Despite of what Mr Stallman and a few others believes...

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=9#

0.57%....:(

So skip this FSF fundamentalism and just fix this commercial crap and
make it easy installed and working for all Linux users.

When we are more then 5 % we have a lot of more devs and we maybe can skip this crap....:)

For example the free flasplayer.... what a joke... a player which plays proprietary formats..:) double moral and wasted time...:)

[S3Indiana]

Step 2!

Question 3: Where do you sell your products?
Online Offline Both

What do I say here? I don't sell them. Not even for $0.Do you offer your application at the website entered at Step 1?Sorry, I didn't quite understand your question.Do you have your application available on-line for download or ship via CD/DVD or both???

[warner]

That's a false dichotomy. There are not only two choices--CNR or the command-line. (By the way, I have never had to compile from source. Whenever I've used the command-line, it's always been sudo apt-get install.) Add/Remove is pretty easy to use. You go to Applications > Add/Remove and check the boxes for the applications you want.

I know CNR offers some functionality beyond Add/Remove, but it is not the only non-CLI option for installation.

Well, in theory, they shouldn't be too hard to install:
http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/java
http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/nvidia

Same as CNR or easier, depending on how you look at it.

And, honestly, if I had a user who was switching over, I'd give that user Linux Mint or some other distro that had all that proprietary crap already installed. Why make them jump through hoops?

I am not suggesting a dichotomy, false or otherwise. If you read up to my three previous post you will see that I cover Add/Remove, Synaptic, and Adept as well as responding to Autopackage.

You are the only one presenting a dichotomy, full stop.

By the way I have never had to install from source either, I presented that route as one that many advanced users prefer. Unfortunately many of these same users make the _idiotic_ statement of "it's a simple X,Y,Z", completely ignoring the steps of learning that process, and _getting_ the source, and getting all the compile utils and libraries installed. CnR is meant for people like my fater or step-father, to whom the browser _is_ the Internet, and if the icon dissapears off of their desktop the application is gone, "poof". These types of user are a _large_ part of the computing population.

"Well, in theory, they shouldn't be too hard to install:
http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/java
http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/nvidia

Same as CNR or easier, depending on how you look at it."

Did you look at those pages? The user segment I am talking about _will never find those pages_ and if they did _they would be lost_.

It would be Greek to them, full stop.

As I said above, Add/Remove comes closest, but if you wanted to make it better _for the user segment it was built for_ you would add many of the same things CnR has.

One interface to _learn_ what is best to install, to install everything that _can_ be installed, regardless of someone _else's_ politics.

Not three interfaces and 6 google searches and 12 web pages and 5 downloads and 9 additional steps.

One interface to discover and install, one application one click.

Preferably provided by a non-commercial entity that isn't out to pimp the Community.

If you want to respond to what I have written, please actually respond to what I have written.

[Vadi]

Do you have your application available on-line for download or ship via CD/DVD or both???

Online.

I do not sell it however. I should have an option of skipping that question.

Warner: Do you think the a user will even be able to get cnr working to begin with on their computer? And have you heard of automatix?

We aren't arguing against usability here. All cnr did was get ahead by having only one program listed so far. We're all for better user experience. Which should go through the official channels, not third-party applications. Okay?

[aysiu]

Did you look at those pages? The user segment I am talking about _will never find those pages_ and if they did _they would be lost_.

It would be Greek to them, full stop. Of course I looked at those pages. I created them!

If the user segment you're talking about will never look at those pages, how will they look at pages that tell them how to install and use CNR?

Those pages do not need to be looked at. The functionality they describe can be discovered by new users if they just poke around the menus or actually use Ubuntu. In order for users to use CNR, they have to find it and then learn how to use it.

[RemmyLee]

I have a question about the website.

Where are the sources? According to the GPL, which most of this software is licensed under, you must:

Distribute binary-package and source-package, or
Make the source-package readily available.

I see don't see anywhere to download the sources.

Great way to violate the GPL.

[xArv3nx]

I have a question about the website.

Where are the sources? According to the GPL, which most of this software is licensed under, you must:

Distribute binary-package and source-package, or
Make the source-package readily available.

I see don't see anywhere to download the sources.

Great way to violate the GPL.

They offer the source under the download page.

[S3Indiana]

I have a question about the website.

Where are the sources? According to the GPL, which most of this software is licensed under, you must:

Distribute binary-package and source-package, or
Make the source-package readily available.

I see don't see anywhere to download the sources.

Great way to violate the GPL.As previously posted (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=3899238#post3899238) the CNR repository is a mirror of the native repository, and the binary and source packages are available on each product Specification page (pls. review the site (http://www.cnr.com) to get familiar with whats available)...

[warner]

Online.

I do not sell it however. I should have an option of skipping that question.

Warner: Do you think the a user will even be able to get cnr working to begin with on their computer? And have you heard of automatix?

We aren't arguing against usability here. All cnr did was get ahead by having only one program listed so far. We're all for better user experience. Which should go through the official channels, not third-party applications. Okay?

Vadi,

Automatix is the first (now that Gdebi is default) thing I install on folks computers, to make _my_ life easier in setting them up. As far as CnR goes, yes, with Gdebi installed it is literally click the link on the web page and say yes to the pop up dialog, and it is done. Most users could handle that.

But more importantly, _I_ could install this _one_ application for them and then they could be (to a much greater degree) on their own.

But this is beside the point, I would rather see Add/Remove brought up to CnR's level (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AddRemovePrograms). I have been following the Automatix does it/doesn't it break systems drama for the last , what 1-2 years. I would much rather see a 'buntu native tool that resolves all these issues, heck I would rather see CnR as a Canonical venture, helping get software writers paid and the "publisher" cut going to an organization I have faith in.

Again I am _not_ arguing for CnR, I _am_ arguing for it's functionality for inexperienced users. And there are several advantages it has over Add/Remove.

And If you read back through this thread, and pretty much anywhere else there is a conversation about software installation; the statements of "fill-in-th-blank-GUI", or heaven help the new user, "this simple command at the shell is already easy enough" are far to common.

GNU/Linux, especially the 'buntus, are so close to being _better_ than either the Mac or Win environments and I get frustrated by the attitude that it's good enough for me so it ought to be good enough for everybody.

So yes, far to many people argue against a level of simplicity that _they_ don't need.



Of course I looked at those pages. I created them!

If the user segment you're talking about will never look at those pages, how will they look at pages that tell them how to install and use CNR?

Those pages do not need to be looked at. The functionality they describe can be discovered by new users if they just poke around the menus or actually use Ubuntu. In order for users to use CNR, they have to find it and then learn how to use it.

aysiu,

I _knew_ you were going to say you wrote them :)

As I said above something like CnR lets _me_ just have to install one app. for them, or for some more computer comfortable email them the download page.

And the functionality your pages describe is quite new and not solid through the 'buntus yet. I have been using the 'buntus since warty, mainly Kubuntu and recently mainly Xubuntu. I love the pace of improvement, and I love the user community. Those pages you wrote are a perfect example of why I put folks in 'buntu. But I don't scale, and 'buntu is now 97% of the way to the point that I can put _anyone_ on it without having to spend buckets of time supporting them.

Improving Add/remove to CnR levels and the last bits of hardware functioning is the final 3% for everyone but Windows app dependents ( and VirtualBox is removing that barrier).

I just get frustrated when I hear people deny that there is a remaining usability gap for a great many users, because there is and the sooner it is acknowledged the sooner it will be addressed, and the sooner I can stop stop worrying about MS cutting off all the other choices.

Then I can go back to practicing my carpentry in peace.

If any of my posts here have seemed overly combative or critical, that was not my intent. I really do think the users on these forums are among the best in the Community.

peace

[gn2]

You might be surprised what distributions are interested in working with CNR.com (http://www.cnr.com)...

Hypothetical situation:
When some individual has problems with an upgrade from say Ubuntu 7.10 to 8.04 caused by having non-repo CNR sourced software added, and it renders the PC useless, will he/she go to CNR.com or come here for help?

The question is, what support will you provide?

[Espreon]

And I think CNR sucks. For a few simple reasons...

1. Linspire signed a treaty with the devil (a.k.a. Micro$***)
2. Its not like it is a piece of software entirely (I mean come on the client just launches FF to goto the CNR site and just handles the CNR scripts)...
3. Its just a mirror of the Ubuntu repos (as stated earlier) with a few bells and whistles

With 1 M$ wants Linspire to help M$ understand FOSS.
Yeah like M$ can comprehend FOSS (even though they surprisingly have an OSI approved software license...)

[Vadi]

Well, I still can't submit an open-source project to CnR.

Lets work on getting Add/Remove up to par instead then, instead of telling CnR that we're glad to be paying money into private hands :)

[misfitpierce]

CNR is made of fail

[S3Indiana]

Hypothetical situation:
When some individual has problems with an upgrade from say Ubuntu 7.10 to 8.04 caused by having non-repo CNR sourced software added, and it renders the PC useless, will he/she go to CNR.com or come here for help?

The question is, what support will you provide?CNR doesn't use the sources.list file, but is providing an exact mirror (with additional packages not found in the native distribution repositories) which have been tested in a standard distribution install. Where are the upgraded packages coming from, the sources.list repositories or the CNR.com (http://www.cnr.com) repositories??? The libraries found in CNR are an exact duplicate (down to the package name) of what's found in the native distribution repository, so the experience should be the same. How could CNR be aware of packages that might be installed from other repositories added to the sources.list???

[S3Indiana]

CNR is made of failAre you saying there's a design flaw???

[Vadi]

Yeah... that's we've been saying all along.

I thought about it, and here's what I came up with: I think you're still thinking in the old-fashioned, proprietary way. Where if you want a change, you have to make it externally, you cannot change the inner workings.

Linux, Ubuntu is different. You can, and are encouraged to help change the core. That's exactly how Linux was built, and why is it growing so rapidly. So clearly, changing the formula (like cnr is trying to) is not the way to go. The formula is already made, you just need to follow it.

And to follow it...

Uh...

So for anyone campaninging that CnR has Cinerella and Ubuntu doesn't, do you know that there are two versions of Cinerella, and that you can get the second one easily without compiling? (click (http://cv.cinelerra.org/getting_cinelerra.php#gutsy))

Anyway, to get back to the point, you just submit a package form, like I did here (click (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/175125)). Due to the lack of MOTU's (Ubuntu needs way more, feel free to join if you can), it'll take a bit to get included, but I'm sure it'll be in by the next release.

[gn2]

CNR doesn't use the sources.list file, but is providing an exact mirror (with additional packages not found in the native distribution repositories) which have been tested in a standard distribution install. Where are the upgraded packages coming from, the sources.list repositories or the CNR.com (http://www.cnr.com) repositories??? The libraries found in CNR are an exact duplicate (down to the package name) of what's found in the native distribution repository, so the experience should be the same. How could CNR be aware of packages that might be installed from other repositories added to the sources.list???

Seem to have shot yourself in the foot here, if you're using the repos for CNR, why wouldn't a user just use Synaptic?

And the commercial paid for software that you supply access to, that isn't in the distros own repos, what if that clashes with an upgraded version?

If I want to buy software, why would I want to pay you to be the middle man?

[S3Indiana]

Seem to have shot yourself in the foot here, if you're using the repos for CNR, why wouldn't a user just use Synaptic?

And the commercial paid for software that you supply access to, that isn't in the distros own repos, what if that clashes with an upgraded version?

If I want to buy software, why would I want to pay you to be the middle man?Synaptic doesn't have the features of CNR.com (http://www.cnr.com) and it doesn't provide the one-stop access to all applications (including commercial). Each new version has a new repository (like feisty is different than gutsy) and the commercial applications are build against the new repository (as any good Debian packager does :). Why buy from CNR: first CNR provides access to many applications (not just one at a vendors site - IOW providing comparison), and second is you might get a better price (the same reason people buy from Amazon vs the vendor)...

[adamklempner]

I'm not sure if it is working yet, but if the Aisles feature of CNR is (or will be soon) online, then that alone is worth it for me. The ability to install ALL of your favorite applications with one click on a fresh install is a HUGE time saver. Especially when you have multiple computers that you like to have set up the same way.

Guess it won't really matter for me though seeing as how my distro hopping of late has landed me on PCLOS with no CNR support...

[forrestcupp]

So for anyone campaninging that CnR has Cinerella and Ubuntu doesn't, do you know that there are two versions of Cinerella, and that you can get the second one easily without compiling? (click (http://cv.cinelerra.org/getting_cinelerra.php#gutsy))

Well, I was one that was complaining. I know all about Cinelerra CV. They have a repository that I can add to my sources.list and then use Synaptic to install it. I installed Cinelerra this way well before you came to these forums.

My point isn't that I can't get Cinelerra without compiling. My point is that they should have had them in the default repos a long time ago. I shouldn't have to edit my sources.list and search for a repo for Cinelerra; it should just be there for me to install.

All of the whining about Linspire's "Microsoft deal" is getting old. I'm not a Linspire lover, but there are some good things about CnR. The descriptions, screenshots, and ratings are a plus. The fact that I can easily get software in one place that isn't available in our repos is good.

I will continue to use Synaptic to install anything available that way, but I'm not just going to dismiss CnR because of some lame Microsoft hate.

[gn2]

second is you might get a better price (the same reason people buy from Amazon vs the vendor)...

Now you're speaking my language ;-)

Although I doubt there's anything I would need to pay for that I can't get free in Synaptic.

[Vadi]

S3Indiana, you still haven't fully answered my posts...

forrestcupp, I don't care all that much about their microsoft deal. What do wonder is why should I pay them, a private company, money? Do they contribute the money to open-source or? How are they held accountable?

Yes, you should have to do that. So instead of filing a bug report on launchpad, you went to search on the internet for another solution that provides it, and didn't do anything to help Ubuntu? Well, if you think about it, that's selfish of you. I hope you'll understand why.

Then yes, CnR is for you.

But the rest of us will help improve the core things that CnR, and Linspire stand on. Because without the core, those people wouldn't be making money.

(oh and, if you don't know where to spend your money, click on the 'donate' button of your favorite project).

[forrestcupp]

forrestcupp, I don't care all that much about their microsoft deal. What do wonder is why should I pay them, a private company, money? Do they contribute the money to open-source or? How are they held accountable?

Yes, you should have to do that. So instead of filing a bug report on launchpad, you went to search on the internet for another solution that provides it, and didn't do anything to help Ubuntu? Well, if you think about it, that's selfish of you. I hope you'll understand why.

Were you saying that to me? Actually, I believe a long time ago I did file a bug report to get them to include Cinelerra in the repos. For some reason they've never done it. It's not good to assume things. This time you were wrong. Anyway, CnR is one way for Ubuntu to be helped, or Canonical wouldn't have been on board with it.

I also don't know why you're worried about paying Linspire money. For one thing, all of the open source stuff on there is free. You don't have to pay to use CnR. The only time you have to pay is if you want to purchase a commercial software, and that is your choice. This is no different than buying software from a private company like Best Buy or Walmart. Maybe you're forgetting that the whole purpose of having a business is to make money.

[Lvcoyote]

What do you guys think of CNR.... worth using???

[aysiu]

What do you guys think of CNR.... worth using???
It's up to each user to decide.

[RemmyLee]

Where is the licensing for using the CNR client? As I currently see none, I'm assuming that I have permission to modify it, even in it's binary form to suit my needs.

[Lvcoyote]

Sounds good to me..... LOL

[RemmyLee]

A quick download of a .cnr file shows you it's an xml file. The cnr client then simply uses curl and apt to do the dirty work. Also, you may want to tell the developers to remove code profiling and debugging symbols before releasing their software. Unless you meant to include much of the source in the executable.


CNRClient::Package::Version:: operator=

[saulgoode]

What do you guys think of CNR.... worth using???

From my understanding of it: no, it is not.

Its client apparently runs as SUID root (those who know more about it, feel free to correct me), which I would never consider doing with a beta release and especially one which downloads programs from the Internet and potentially modifies my entire filesystem. SUID programs are usually small programs which perform a specific task and modify only a few files, if any.

A typical GNU/Linux install only has a dozen or two SUID programs and they are time-tested and thoroughly debugged to avoid the possibility of compromising a system. The only large program which is SUID is the X Window System and, even though X has been around for decades and is well-tested, this is an ongoing concern which requires a constant vigilance for potential exploits.

I am also concerned about the details of how its update notification is implemented: is it a separate daemon (unnecessarily tying up resources), an xinet service (opening up additional ports), a cron job?

I am not that interested in purchasing commercial software, but if I were then I would not be thrilled with purchasing it through CNR whereby I am dependent upon their copy of the software and not permitted to provide my own backup. If I need to re-install the program, change machines, or wish to update my system and they no longer provide the version of the program I purchased, then I lose the program (or need to purchase the newer version).

Since Linspire is a non-public corporation, there is no assurance for the longevity of CNR. Linspire's corporate officers might decide to close down CNR after discovering it not to be profitable; or being bought out/off by a competitor who wishes to see the service shut down. This would make any software I had purchased no longer available should I need to re-install.

I would much prefer purchasing a copy of the software which I retain, rather than relying upon the existence of some intermediary to provide a replacement.

In short, I do not place any trust in CNR running on my system and would protest its inclusion on any distro I use. You are free to make up your own mind.

[S3Indiana]

From my understanding of it: no, it is not.

Its client apparently runs as SUID root (those who know more about it, feel free to correct me), which I would never consider doing with a beta release and especially one which downloads programs from the Internet and potentially modifies my entire filesystem. SUID programs are usually small programs which perform a specific task and modify only a few files, if any.

A typical GNU/Linux install only has a dozen or two SUID programs and they are time-tested and thoroughly debugged to avoid the possibility of compromising a system. The only large program which is SUID is the X Window System and, even though X has been around for decades and is well-tested, this is an ongoing concern which requires a constant vigilance for potential exploits.

I am also concerned about the details of how its update notification is implemented: is it a separate daemon (unnecessarily tying up resources), an xinet service (opening up additional ports), a cron job?

I am not that interested in purchasing commercial software, but if I were then I would not be thrilled with purchasing it through CNR whereby I am dependent upon their copy of the software and not permitted to provide my own backup. If I need to re-install the program, change machines, or wish to update my system and they no longer provide the version of the program I purchased, then I lose the program (or need to purchase the newer version).

Since Linspire is a non-public corporation, there is no assurance for the longevity of CNR. Linspire's corporate officers might decide to close down CNR after discovering it not to be profitable; or being bought out/off by a competitor who wishes to see the service shut down. This would make any software I had purchased no longer available should I need to re-install.

I would much prefer purchasing a copy of the software which I retain, rather than relying upon the existence of some intermediary to provide a replacement.

In short, I do not place any trust in CNR running on my system and would protest its inclusion on any distro I use. You are free to make up your own mind.
The setuid bit is turned on so that the CNR client runs as affectively root. This is done so that any user can install/unisntall/update software on a machine. The developers thought these activities are useful enough to warrant the use of setuid.
To quote the setuid folks, "In some cases these privileges are insufficient to do useful things, for example if the user had the ability to write to the /etc/passwd file they could alter or remove all users passwords - but without access to it they cannot change their own password!" |More (http://community.cnr.com/message/1029#1029)
Update notification occurs during CNR Client start and then every 24 hours the Client is running (hardly a strain on resources).
As seen below the client downloads the .deb file into a pool folder, so you have a local copy of the purchase. And whether we like it or not many applications are move to web based meaning you'll never have a copy on your local machine.
The source for the CNR Client is open (the license is included with the package), so why would you oppose a distribution offering a choice on installation managers???

[saulgoode]

|The source for the CNR Client is open (the license is included with the package), so why would you oppose a distribution offering a choice on installation managers???

Being open source is not sufficient to trust giving a program SUID, vulnerabilities can still creep in. The quote you provided only addresses SUID from a convenience standpoint, not security. Microsoft permitted its mail client to execute ActiveX programs out of convenience, yet it become a method of exploit which caused a great deal of strife for users.

First, it seems CNR is permitting anyone on the machine to install software from your repositories. A user who I wish not to have that privilege (for example, an 8-year old child) would be allowed to install whatever programs are available in your repositories. Is this not so?

Second, if the client were not SUID, would it still function? Prompting the user for authorization? This would at least alleviate the preceding problem.

Even so, when CNR installs a program, it will run a post-install script (this is a necessary component of both .deb and .rpm). This script will be running as root (even if the user has to manually authorize himself as described in the preceding paragraph). Are you willing to guarantee that no post-install will ever be exploited to escalate the privileges offered to the user? What sort of assurance does CNR provide against this? A commercial company (or an individual posing as one) could quite easily provide code which would install a backdoor or rootkit on the user's system.

Feel free to address any of the above points. I admit I may be miscontruing things because, for the life of me, I can't see how anyone would consider CNR to be a sane approach.

[jrusso2]

I am not that interested in purchasing commercial software, but if I were then I would not be thrilled with purchasing it through CNR whereby I am dependent upon their copy of the software and not permitted to provide my own backup. If I need to re-install the program, change machines, or wish to update my system and they no longer provide the version of the program I purchased, then I lose the program (or need to purchase the newer version).
I would much prefer purchasing a copy of the software which I retain, rather than relying upon the existence of some intermediary to provide a replacement.

In short, I do not place any trust in CNR running on my system and would protest its inclusion on any distro I use. You are free to make up your own mind.

This is in fact what has occurred with users that have purchased software through CNR in the past and are now finding themselves unable to install that software a year later on the new Linspire.

[padlan]

Doesn't look like anyone has posted this yet (if I missed it, please merge this thread):
http://technocrat.net/d/2007/12/4/31129

Haven't tried it, but I did note that an Ubuntu client is available.

What do you think?

Thanks for the news. I used CNR for several years when I was a Linspire user (my first Distro). I just installed the CNR Client on my desktop: smooth install and the first thing it did was update my Opera browser.

[S3Indiana]

Being open source is not sufficient to trust giving a program SUID, vulnerabilities can still creep in. The quote you provided only addresses SUID from a convenience standpoint, not security. Microsoft permitted its mail client to execute ActiveX programs out of convenience, yet it become a method of exploit which caused a great deal of strife for users.

First, it seems CNR is permitting anyone on the machine to install software from your repositories. A user who I wish not to have that privilege (for example, an 8-year old child) would be allowed to install whatever programs are available in your repositories. Is this not so?

Second, if the client were not SUID, would it still function? Prompting the user for authorization? This would at least alleviate the preceding problem.

Even so, when CNR installs a program, it will run a post-install script (this is a necessary component of both .deb and .rpm). This script will be running as root (even if the user has to manually authorize himself as described in the preceding paragraph). Are you willing to guarantee that no post-install will ever be exploited to escalate the privileges offered to the user? What sort of assurance does CNR provide against this? A commercial company (or an individual posing as one) could quite easily provide code which would install a backdoor or rootkit on the user's system.

Feel free to address any of the above points. I admit I may be miscontruing things because, for the life of me, I can't see how anyone would consider CNR to be a sane approach.Pls. review the entire thread (http://community.cnr.com/message/1029#1029) that was referenced, and a suggestion was made for an option to require a password to execute a CNR install.
Default permissions for non-privileged user accounts on an ubuntu system result in no access to the CNR Client (only the administrative/sudo account has default access as would be expected by an administrator of a system). Don't the security cautious create non-privileged user accounts for users they care to protect???
I fail to understand how the post-install script, as posted:
a necessary component of both .deb and .rpmis less secure with CNR than any other install manager???
Shouldn't the goal be to improve the technology, so that anyone can reliably download and install an application; that they made an educated decision on that software package (IOW choice)???

[saulgoode]

I fail to understand how the post-install script, as posted:is less secure with CNR than any other install manager???
With any install manager, the administrator is permitted to pick and choose which sources are trustworthy. If CNR wishes to be considered a trustworthy repository of software, it is fair to ask what decision-making is employed in deciding which software is made available.

If I install software from Ubuntu Main, I feel quite confident that the software has been vetted as safe and functional. Again, what assurance is CNR offering that the software it offers up is similarly vetted? Is any service provided by CNR which protects me from downloading a rootkit from Joe Hacker in Idaho? Or even a wonderfully altruistic company such as Sony? ;)

[plun]

Is any service provided by CNR which protects me from downloading a rootkit from Joe Hacker in Idaho?

Can you please stop all FUD about CNR.

A user wants to install Skype and Opera, how ?

Find a howto with 100 pages inside a forum ?

"Singing in the rain" ?

:)

[saulgoode]

Can you please stop all FUD about CNR.

You have answers to my voiced concerns? Feel free to provide them.

[plun]

You have answers to my voiced concerns? Feel free to provide them.

Well. please read facts before you talks about "Joe Hacker, Idaho" :)

http://www.cnr.com/supportPages/aboutDownloadPluginInstructions.seam#Ubuntu7.10

This is not a dirty windows backyard for the bad guys software.

Linux and Ubuntu must be spread to more users and this is one way.
FSF fundamentalist MUST understand this.

Ubuntus bug No1 is most important.
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1

CNR must also be commented from Ubuntu and Canonical, sabdfl (where is he ? )
and/or Ubuntus technical board.

:)

[undine]

Can you please stop all FUD about CNR.

A user wants to install Skype and Opera, how ?

Find a howto with 100 pages inside a forum ?

"Singing in the rain" ?

:)

Or go to the official sites and download the debs.

[saulgoode]

Well. please read facts before you talks about "Joe Hacker, Idaho" :)

http://www.cnr.com/supportPages/aboutDownloadPluginInstructions.seam#Ubuntu7.10

This is not a dirty windows backyard for the bad guys software.
Well, I did read that page previously and I am left with the same question: If I select a CNR package to install from other than the sources I have specified in apt-get's "sources.list", does a warning appear offering the choice of not installing it? Or perhaps the catalog never shows unauthorized packages as even being available? If either of this is true, I should be glad to hear it.


Linux and Ubuntu must be spread to more users and this is one way.
FSF fundamentalist MUST understand this.

I will not deny being an "FSF fundamentalist" but none of the concerns I have raised thus far have had anything to do with proprietary software being mixed indiscriminately with Free, or whether this might be to the benefit or detriment of Free Software. Asking questions about what the service provides and what protections are put in place is not FUD, nor does it have anything to do with proprietary versus Free software.

[warner]

That's a false dichotomy. There are not only two choices--CNR or the command-line. (By the way, I have never had to compile from source. Whenever I've used the command-line, it's always been sudo apt-get install.) Add/Remove is pretty easy to use. You go to Applications > Add/Remove and check the boxes for the applications you want.

I know CNR offers some functionality beyond Add/Remove, but it is not the only non-CLI option for installation.

Well, in theory, they shouldn't be too hard to install:
http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/java
http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/nvidia

Same as CNR or easier, depending on how you look at it.

And, honestly, if I had a user who was switching over, I'd give that user Linux Mint or some other distro that had all that proprietary crap already installed. Why make them jump through hoops?

As a follow-up, here I sit having just installed Kubuntu 7.10 (trying to enable some Compiz effect in Xubuntu 7.04 hosed window borders) and I would love to have my second monitor working right now. That page you wrote described perfectly how to enable Nvidia proprietary drivers, and sure enough they work. Now if only there was a way to _configure_ them.

That process doesn't seem to install the Nvidia gui control as well and of course enabling the second monitor in Kubuntus "Display Properties" gets nothing.

And now, of course, Automatix starting with Gutsy no longer does drivers. So its off to try Envy (which failed the last several times I tried it) or Nvidia itself (which was a nightmare and a failure last time I tried it).

And ...this...just...sucks.

I wont even go into all the wonky behavior Kubuntu exhibited during the install (LiveCD hung at the partitioning, as always, and several Adept crashes trying to update packages post install).

And...this...just...sucks.

Honestly the next person who tells me software installation in Linux doesn't need more work...

...I'm gonna shoot myself in the head.

[RemmyLee]

I'll stay away from the "FUD" as well. Security wise, this is a disaster. If anyone can contribute to this, then anyone can distribute arbitrary code.

How do you verify the registrant?

What stops me from using false credentials?

Are you accepting responsibility for the repair of recovery of lost data, identity theft, or fraud do to a program distributed via CNR?

Is Linspire contributing any monies earned via CNR to the Linux community, and if so, where? Please provide sources.

What are the advantages of purchasing from you over purchasing from the developer directly?

Should a program violate licenses, copyrights, trademarks, or patents, what actions do you plan to take and how do you correct the problem on systems that have already installed said program?

[Vadi]

Were you saying that to me? Actually, I believe a long time ago I did file a bug report to get them to include Cinelerra in the repos. For some reason they've never done it. It's not good to assume things. This time you were wrong. Anyway, CnR is one way for Ubuntu to be helped, or Canonical wouldn't have been on board with it.

I searched in Ubuntu's bugs, and no packaging reports came up for the word "cinelerra". As far as I know, bugs aren't deleted - so you never filed yours. Hence, my assumption. Can you confirm me wrong, please?

[gn2]

I searched in Ubuntu's bugs, and no packaging reports came up for the word "cinelerra".

Try cinelarra

[plun]

Or go to the official sites and download the debs.

Well.... a newbie doesn't understand what a deb file is....:)

Ubuntu and deb and also to find this download page.

rpm, yum, source, deb, emerge :confused: 8)

The key issue for me is not that some users maybe chooses unfree software.... we must be more users which leads to more devs and hopefully much better FREE software.

It maybe "hurts" a little for a while but this little sacrifice must be done, IMHO

:)

[forrestcupp]

I searched in Ubuntu's bugs, and no packaging reports came up for the word "cinelerra". As far as I know, bugs aren't deleted - so you never filed yours. Hence, my assumption. Can you confirm me wrong, please?

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/105907

It was already filed so I added my comment half way down on 6-24-2007 to give my support. And yes, it was spelled correctly, "Cinelerra."

[forrestcupp]

Well, I did read that page previously and I am left with the same question: If I select a CNR package to install from other than the sources I have specified in apt-get's "sources.list", does a warning appear offering the choice of not installing it? Or perhaps the catalog never shows unauthorized packages as even being available? If either of this is true, I should be glad to hear it.

The CnR repos are just Linspire's repos that are an exact mirror of Ubuntu's plus some other unavailable stuff that they added. So what it all boils down to, is that you see Ubuntu as time-tested and trustworthy, but you don't see Linspire that way.

Did you know that Linspire has been around since August of 2001? Ubuntu has only been around since October of 2004. Whether you agree with their "Microsoft deal" or not, they are a solid company that has been in the Linux business for a long time. I don't think we have to worry about malicious actions on their part.

p.s. Sorry for posting twice instead of doing it all in one post.

[lordofchaos1984]

CNR is VERY VERY hard to work with. Flaky, installs at sometimes not at others, and DOES NOT tell you when a piece of software is incompatible UNTIL you download the .cnr file

[S3Indiana]

With any install manager, the administrator is permitted to pick and choose which sources are trustworthy. If CNR wishes to be considered a trustworthy repository of software, it is fair to ask what decision-making is employed in deciding which software is made available.

If I install software from Ubuntu Main, I feel quite confident that the software has been vetted as safe and functional. Again, what assurance is CNR offering that the software it offers up is similarly vetted? Is any service provided by CNR which protects me from downloading a rootkit from Joe Hacker in Idaho? Or even a wonderfully altruistic company such as Sony?First CNR.com (http://www.cnr.com) uses the same default stable sources as an out-of-the-box ubuntu install, and most of those leaning towards CNR.com (http://www.cnr.com/) wouldn't have a clue at what sources.list was (or where it's found).
Second there are vendors that rely on CNR.com (http://www.cnr.com/)'s reliability, so what evidence is there not to trust the packages provided (again the majority are the same as the standard repositories found on a stock ubuntu install along with those packages that there are agreements between CNR.com (http://www.cnr.com/) and the software provider - same sources some want to deal with directly, but the majority don't know they even exist). IOW packages can't be included in the CNR repositories w/o being included in the vetted ubuntu repositories or there's an agreement between CNR.com (http://www.cnr.com/) and the publisher/developer (why the Publishers (http://cnr.com/supportPages/publish.seam) program is slanted - I would agree to much so). How would you know that a specific package in a 3rd-party ubuntu repository is reliable (not enough information in Synaptic to make an educated decision)???
Third the recommendation to goto the official site is not reasonable to the many that don't know the application exists or what the vendor URL is (the uniqueness of CNR.com (http://www.cnr.com/) is the community (http://community.cnr.com/index.jspa) that a developer/publisher can provide content or links to their sites - including Support for the software).
Fourth ubuntu has many that contribute (the value of community), but is the integrity of the packages questioned in those repositories??? What guarantee does ubuntu give that a package won't cause issues with a system (pls. recall ubuntu's history).
Fifth the value of CNR.com (http://www.cnr.com/) is one-stop access to tens of thousands of applications with the choice of open source or commercial. For those that select commercial, there's a financial benefit for purchases through CNR.com (http://www.cnr.com/) (discounts compared with the vendor pricing - same idea as Amazon.com). There are agreements between CNR.com (http://www.cnr.com/) and the vendors that eliminate issues with licensing.
Lastly CNR delivery has been available for public use little over 5 years (first release was in November 2002 - remember CNR.com (http://www.cnr.com/), designed to support multiple distributions, has been a web site site less than a year), contributed hundreds of thousands to open source projects (http://kde-look.org/) and provided code (Nvu (http://nvudev.com/index.php) for example), and I've not heard of one malicious package being delivered by the service...

[Vadi]

I apologize then to forestcupp, the report is indeed filed. It looks like the package is being held up because of some licensing issues.

But still. I can't add an open-source project to their website, because their form forbids me too (I don't feel like lying to fill it out). So, for an OSS project, unless they're already listed in Ubuntu's repositories, the website is useless. Then again, if they're listed in the repos already, you can get it easily through add/remove.

And given the security risks raised by other posters, until someone from Ubuntu officially confirms that CnR is OK to use, I'll be recommending all who ask to stay away from it.

But hey, if you're fanatical about it, there's no use arguing.

[forrestcupp]

I apologize then to forestcupp, the report is indeed filed. It looks like the package is being held up because of some licensing issues.

But hey, if you're fanatical about it, there's no use arguing.

No hard feelings. I know you may not have said that specifically to me, but please don't take me as fanatical about CnR. I don't intend to use it other than maybe looking at screen shots and reviews. I just don't see the point in writing it off. It really does have some good points to it.

The only thing I'm wondering, though, is why are the licensing issues a problem for Ubuntu, but not for CnR? Maybe some of it's dependencies can't be put in the strict Main repos, but it seems like there should be some repository that it would fit in.

[S3Indiana]

The only thing I'm wondering, though, is why are the licensing issues a problem for Ubuntu, but not for CnR? Maybe some of it's dependencies can't be put in the strict Main repos, but it seems like there should be some repository that it would fit in.CNR.com (http://www.cnr.com) has lincesing agreements with the vendors that allow redistribution (or sale) of the applications in question...

[Vadi]

softpedia.com has excellent resources as all :)

[S3Indiana]

CNR is VERY VERY hard to work with. Flaky, installs at sometimes not at others, and DOES NOT tell you when a piece of software is incompatible UNTIL you download the .cnr fileThe Specifications (http://www.cnr.com/product/productSpecifications.seam?productId=30782) page of each package provides the information on what distribution and version will be supported (research prior to installation).
Are you using the latest (http://www.cnr.com/supportPages/aboutDownloadPlugin.seam) client to install packages (it's considerably more reliable than previous testing versions)???

[Lunixfanboy]

What do you guys think of CNR.... worth using???No, No, a THOUSAND times no. Yet another step toward servitude and infection from the Lindows corral.

[S3Indiana]

No, No, a THOUSAND times no. Yet another step toward servitude and infection from the Lindows corral.Choice is unacceptable :confused:...

[adamklempner]

I am not that interested in purchasing commercial software, but if I were then I would not be thrilled with purchasing it through CNR whereby I am dependent upon their copy of the software and not permitted to provide my own backup. If I need to re-install the program, change machines, or wish to update my system and they no longer provide the version of the program I purchased, then I lose the program (or need to purchase the newer version).

As a previous user of CNR who has bought software through the service, I can say that this is not true. It is up to the software provider to determine how they want to handle purchases through CNR. I bought Codeweavers Crossover Office and Pixel Image Editor through CNR and both companies supplied me with an account and activation code for their software. In the years since I have left Linspire, I was able to install and use both of these products on Ubuntu and now PCLOS. Is it possible that a vendor could lock their software to a specific OS? Sure, but I wouldn't call that a fault of CNR.

[fatality_uk]

@S3Indiana There are 447,436 members registered here.12,818 were online at one time. Honestly Ken (http://wiki.freespire.org/index.php/User:Ken), I think it's great that you are trying to promote your companies endeavor, but at least let people know that you work for Linspire.

As for me, the website is pointless. I have my package manager for common applications. I have ./configure, make && make install for applications not in the package database, and I have a great community here for answering any questions I may have.

As for Linspire, up until a year and a half ago, anyone using it had to pay for Click-N'-Run services and there is still the CNR Gold Services which really offers no added value. You can obtain technical support from the company you purchase you application from directly and although Gold offers "discounts" for premium software, I would rather pay for it directly and support the developer.

I suppose it's the way Linspire has commercialized the simple task of installing a program that really irks me. It's the reason I simply can't take this new endeavor serious or show interest in it other than resentment.

OK. OK. A question and a request!

Question) Ken is that really you?

Request) Seeing as I just spent about 5 FREEKING Days reading this thread, would everyone mind re-writing their posts please, but just condense your response into a single phrase from the list below:

1) CNR:- goood
2) CNR:- baaad
3) Bill Gates is IN FACT the devil incarnate, but I like Windows :)
4) Sudo apt what?

[Sammi]

OK. OK. A question and a request!

Question) Ken is that really you?

Request) Seeing as I just spent about 5 FREEKING Days reading this thread, would everyone mind re-writing their posts please, but just condense your response into a single phrase from the list below:

1) CNR:- goood
2) CNR:- baaad
3) Bill Gates is IN FACT the devil incarnate, but I like Windows :)
4) Sudo apt what?Just make a poll :D

[fatality_uk]

Just make a poll :D

:lolflag:

I would, but I have already had at least THREE warning this week about my posts and a POLL describing Bill Gates as I did, might and I mean might just drive the WONDERFUL admins over the edge and BAN me for life :lolflag:


Plus the fact that, a) it was tounge in cheek and bee I KNOW that someone would take the time to answer the chuffin poll and then post a message, "huh a poll about this lamer" :lolflag:

It's been a long day and my brain is melting
I need a beer and a bl... (No, can't say that. Must be good. THEY might be watching :lolflag:)

[Linuxratty]

Honestly the next person who tells me software installation in Linux doesn't need more work...

...I'm gonna shoot myself in the head.

I know how you feel...Can't install video drivers without hosing Linux.
Can't install 3 D effects,all I get is a blank white screen.
Can't watch DVD's...
Software installing and getting the bugs out when installed so the apps work is what Linux still needs help with..So get that pea shooter away from your ear! :)

[Vadi]

I do hope you understand that Linux cannot do much in regards to video drivers, right? Companies make those for their cards - if they make a bad driver, you get a bad experience.

[Linuxratty]

I do hope you understand that Linux cannot do much in regards to video drivers, right? Companies make those for their cards - if they make a bad driver, you get a bad experience.

Yes,I understand that.

[S3Indiana]

Question) Ken is that really you?I can answer the question :). S3Indiana (http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=73017) is the same S3Indiana (http://forum.linspire.com/viewtopic.php?p=40862#40862) that started as a customer and was subsequently hired (getting paid for my hobby :)...

[forrestcupp]

1) CNR:- goood
2) CNR:- baaad
3) Bill Gates is IN FACT the devil incarnate, but I like Windows :)
4) Sudo apt what?
CnR may be mostly useless to most users, but it has some good points.

Bill Gates is not the devil incarnate. Steve Ballmer is questionable, though. And Windows is alright.

Why bother with sudo apt-get when there are plenty of GUI's.

[Vadi]

...is the same forum.linspire.com...

Oh, that explains the fanatical defence. Okay!

[RemmyLee]

I use apt mainly on my FB box. It's a system that does NOT use a gui. And get this, I can watch videos, play music, stream radio, browse the web, and program, all from the command line.

That box is probably my favorite of all my computers. Doesn't require more than 256MB of RAM and just plain works. I know that sounds old fashioned, but it's really amazing what you can do from the command line.

As for the evils of Microsoft, I suggest you all read the Halloween Documents (http://www.catb.org/~esr/halloween/).

[forrestcupp]

[QUOTE=RemmyLee;3932025
As for the evils of Microsoft, I suggest you all read the Halloween Documents (http://www.catb.org/~esr/halloween/).[/QUOTE]
Well, I know as well as anyone that Microsoft does things that seem unethical. But these Halloween Documents don't make me think they are evil.

To sum it up, Microsoft sees a competitor and possible threat so they come up with a game plan to stay on top. Big deal. If a business didn't do that, they wouldn't be successful at all.

The Linux world really has the same goal. Just like someone else was saying, the first Ubuntu bug (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1) filed was by Mark Shuttleworth, and the bug is that Microsoft has a majority in the marketshare. I'd also say that there is more anti-Microsoft sentiment in the Linux world than there is anti-Linux in the MS world. You can read it in any thread in this forum.

The only difference between Microsoft and Linux here is that MS is better at coming up with a game plan to succeed.

[plun]

The Linux world really has the same goal. Just like someone else was saying, the first Ubuntu bug (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1) filed was by Mark Shuttleworth, and the bug is that Microsoft has a majority in the marketshare. I'd also say that there is more anti-Microsoft sentiment in the Linux world than there is anti-Linux in the MS world. You can read it in any thread in this forum.

The only difference between Microsoft and Linux here is that MS is better at coming up with a game plan to succeed.

Jim Zemlin tried to calm down this "MS hate"... but was "hanged"

http://boycottnovell.com/2007/08/15/respect-for-microsoft/

Linus Torvalds latest "point of view" about MS is a good one.

"Some people get a bit too excited about MS, I think. I don't think they are that interesting."

http://www.linuxworld.com/cgi-bin/mailto/x_linux.cgi?pagetosend=/export/home/httpd/linuxworld/news/2007/080907-torvalds-on-linux-ms-softwares.html&pagename=/news/2007/080907-torvalds-on-linux-ms-softwares.html&pageurl=http://www.linuxworld.com/news/2007/080907-torvalds-on-linux-ms-softwares.html&site=lw_general

So skip this MS hate and work with Ubuntu and Free software...:)

Place all MS discussions within 1 (hate MS) thread....:lolflag:

[Vadi]

That's a very good idea plun, you should follow it :)

[perlluver]

Ok, other than people just moving from Windows to Linux, who wants or needs CNR? I trired Freespire 2.0, used CNR, IMO, it is a peice of junk. I would rather have Add/Remove programs in Ububtu any day. As for Ubuntu after losing my data twice, because of it going un-stable, no reason for it too. I am running Debian Etch, And I couldn't be happier. Not only do I have KPackage Manager, and synaptic, but I can compile from source, now why would I want to to that? Well in my opinion it runs faster when compiled, and I can have the newest version.

So in short, why bother with CNR? Stick with Add/Remove programs, and apt-get. Type in a search box, find it, install it. Every version of Linux should be different that is how they are made and that is how they should stay. Leave CNR in Freespire and Linspire, Ubuntu is alot better than those two, they are nice for Linux Newbies, Ubuntu is a litle more tough, Debian is a little more tough to learn than Ubuntu. But I couldn't be happier with it. If it had CNR, I probably wouldn't use it anyway, or reccomend that anyone else use it.

[plun]

That's a very good idea plun, you should follow it :)

Well.... I can notice a lot of "small sabfl" and "MS wannabees" in
other foras....:)

Some users doesn't understand "the soul of Free Software" and applies
MS-Redmond tactics instead of learning users and develop software.

Free software can brake a PC....:)

:lolflag:

[S3Indiana]

Oh, that explains the fanatical defence. Okay!Well because I've supported a distribution for over 5 years that makes my answers questionable...OK...

[Vadi]

Yes. Because you haven't seen the other side of the fence.

At any rate, this isn't the place for such type of a discussion ;)

[S3Indiana]

Ok, other than people just moving from Windows to Linux, who wants or needs CNR? I trired Freespire 2.0, used CNR, IMO, it is a peice of junk.The CNR client for CNR.com (http://www.cnr.com/) is still Beta testing software; therefore, not a completed product.

So in short, why bother with CNR? Stick with Add/Remove programs, and apt-get. Type in a search box, find it, install it. Why bother with CNR: simple if you have no idea what the name of the application (especially those with - lets say - unusual names) then a robust browsing and search capability is crucial (Synaptic and Add/Remove only go so far); plus for those that want choices outside the standard repository are left out in the cold (CNR.com (http://www.cnr.com) provides one-stop access)...
Note: wish threads would stay on topic...

[S3Indiana]

Yes. Because you haven't seen the other side of the fence.I would venture to say I've installed more different distributions builds .iso's than the average Linux user (hundreds more - probably wore out more test machines than the average Linux user has owned :)...

[plun]

Yes. Because you haven't seen the other side of the fence.

At any rate, this isn't the place for such type of a discussion ;)

"Kindergarten" at C-F.....:)

Compiling incompatible software against a release because of
a group with a "hidden agenda".

Such examples destroys for the free software and makes users to have time to just sit and "hate ms" instead of using, develop and have thougts about software. Also have fun with this software and learn to think.

Incredible....:) Linspire is a small challenge compare to how we should develop software.

[dasunst3r]

*yawn* My "CNR" has been with me for the past two years now. Here's how I invoke it: System -> Administration -> Synaptic Package Manager.

[RemmyLee]

Just like someone else was saying, the first Ubuntu bug filed was by Mark Shuttleworth, and the bug is that Microsoft has a majority in the marketshare.

I totally agree with that there. It's not a bug, it's just a fact. A fact that I would love to see changed, but reporting it as a bug is just childish. Now as strange as it sounds, I'm not against Microsoft. Their an incredible company that has literally made the computer world what it is today. I just don't want them dipping there toes in the Linux pool. I don't want to destroy Microsoft. I just don't want them screwing with Linux. The reason I left Windows was to get away from their licenses, and now they are trying to buy their way in to my home again.

And I don't find the company as a whole evil, but their practices can be incredibly detrimental. (http://tech.blorge.com/Structure:%20/2007/05/14/linux-violates-235-microsoft-patents/).

Also, I have yet to recieve answers to any of my questions (http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=3925708&postcount=125).

[S3Indiana]

Also, I have yet to recieve answers to any of my questions (http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=3925708&postcount=125).Have you reviewed (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=3926910#3926910) all (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=3925385#3925385) the replies (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=3925174#3925174)???

[saulgoode]

The CNR client for CNR.com (http://www.cnr.com/) is still Beta testing software; therefore, not a completed product.

Let me help you out on your testing. There is an error in the following two lines of your post install script:

ADMINS=`cat /etc/group | grep "^admins:" | sed "s/^.*:.*:.*://" | sed "s/,/ /"`
ADMIN=`cat /etc/group | grep "^admin:" | sed "s/^.*:.*:.*://" | sed "s/,/ /"`


The final 'sed' in those lines need to employ substitute's global option else an install on any system with more than two admins will fail.

You really need to reconsider distributing beta software that runs as SUID.

[S3Indiana]

Let me help you out on your testing. There is an error in the following two lines of your post install script:

ADMINS=`cat /etc/group | grep "^admins:" | sed "s/^.*:.*:.*://" | sed "s/,/ /"`
ADMIN=`cat /etc/group | grep "^admin:" | sed "s/^.*:.*:.*://" | sed "s/,/ /"`


The final 'sed' in those lines need to employ substitute's global option else an install on any system with more than two admins will fail.

You really need to reconsider distributing beta software that runs as SUID.Feedback forwarded to the developers...

[latency]

Let me help you out on your testing. There is an error in the following two lines of your post install script:

ADMINS=`cat /etc/group | grep "^admins:" | sed "s/^.*:.*:.*://" | sed "s/,/ /"`
ADMIN=`cat /etc/group | grep "^admin:" | sed "s/^.*:.*:.*://" | sed "s/,/ /"`


The final 'sed' in those lines need to employ substitute's global option else an install on any system with more than two admins will fail.


Whoops. Good catch, thanks:)

[plun]

CNR.com beta - Two weeks later...

We thought you might be interested in some of the initial CNR.com usage numbers since the beta launch two weeks ago:

- Over 10,000 new CNR users installing software with the CNR Client
- Over 144,300 software programs, packages and libraries installed
- Ubuntu 7.10 is the most popular desktop Linux OS using the free CNR Service

Thank you everyone for your feedback and recommendations during the new CNR.com beta service launch. With your continued involvement and support, CNR will continue to improve and be a great software delivery service for all desktop Linux users around the world. Also, be on the look out over the coming weeks as CNR.com will be launching new products and services! If you'd like to see a product added to CNR.com, please let us know.

Thank you all again for your support.
Happy Holidays!

- The CNR Team.

http://community.cnr.com/docs/DOC-1087

[myke]

Personally ... I don't know what all of the griping is about in this long monotonous thread. If you don't want to use CNR, then don't. If you do, then do. Either way ... Linux is supposed to be about choice. As such, it sickens me constantly reading threads in various Linux forums where users bash each other for not choosing the way that they think is the best whether it be package manager choice or distro choice or kde vs. gnome, etc. No wonder Linux has had such a tough time gaining ground in the desktop world. For normal users ... all they see is a fragmented world who squabbles with one another like little children. It's one thing when Mac users bash Win users and vice versa .. at least they're different OSs. But damn ... you'd think the users of each and every Linux distro would be supportive of one another for, if for no other purpose, than to advance Linux as a whole ... not leaving it to fragmentation due to bickering like kids on a playground.

Personally, I haven't tried CNR. It may or may not be for me. But it's certainly my choice and it doesn't make me an idiot whether I do so or not and whether I stick with it or not. As a matter of fact, I'd have tried it tonight just to see if it worked ok or not so I could give an honest opinion but the CNR client for Ubuntu would not download! The site kept timing out. Soooo .... I'm willing to give it a go but I got an initial bad impression when I couldn't even download the plugin.

Even so ... if there are those using it who love it or novice users who might find it easier than Synaptic or Adept or hunting thru Medibuntu and the like, then good for them. It is there CHOICE after all .... doesn't make either side right or wrong. But all of the bickering and sniping sure does come across as a wee bit juvenile.

[Vadi]

Lets not rezz a 2 months old unhappy thread, eh?

[S3Indiana]

Personally, I haven't tried CNR... As a matter of fact, I'd have tried it tonight just to see if it worked ok or not so I could give an honest opinion but the CNR client for Ubuntu would not download! The site kept timing out. Soooo .... I'm willing to give it a go but I got an initial bad impression when I couldn't even download the plugin.Sorry for any inconvenience, the CNR Client should again be available for download (http://www.cnr.com/supportPages/aboutDownloadPlugin.seam)...

[Vadi]

I downloaded the .deb, but it failed to install - said 'wrong architecture i386'.

[rosswmcgee]

Linspire was my first Linux distro, and I am greatful for it. It helped me get rid of Windows, which is the most compicated distro there is. Then they changed to Freespire and happened to mention Ubuntu merging with CNR. So I checked out Ubuntu and have been an ubuntu fan ever since. I see no reason to use CNR. If there is a good reason I would like to hear it.

[icechen1]

What's the point of it when we have add/remove programs, synaptics and the terminal? It seems rather redundant to me...

Even getdeb.net have more decent version than them.

[k2t0f12d]

This will be a vehicle to promote proprietary software for the GNU/Linux platform. When selecting "free software" with the site's filter, it filters on gratis software not software licensed under free terms.

[S3Indiana]

What's the point of it when we have add/remove programs, synaptics and the terminal? It seems rather redundant to me...Even getdeb.net have more decent version than them.The majority of the computing population doesn't necessarily care what version of a product they get, as long as it performs as they require. CNR.com (http://www.cnr.com) provides that experience for the general populace; those other tools would turn them off...

[Vadi]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Those who are "turned off" somehow tank up thousands of downloads off getdeb.net daily.

Let me see - getdeb.net - one click to download, one click to install. Out of the box.

CNR.com - you have to setup their client first. I don't see how that is more appealing!

[S3Indiana]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Those who are "turned off" somehow tank up thousands of downloads off getdeb.net daily.

Let me see - getdeb.net - one click to download, one click to install. Out of the box.

CNR.com - you have to setup their client first. I don't see how that is more appealing!The CNR client has to be installed once (even the OS must be installed before you can use it). BTW CNR also has thousands of daily downloads, does that change the expectation of the general populace...

[Asmodeus19]

Hi Everyone,

I am new to the forum and looking for the install procedure for the CNR client. I am actually running Kubuntu 8.04 beta release.... Any help would be appreciated...

Thanks,
Asmodeus19

[smartboyathome]

Just follow these instructions (http://www.cnr.com/supportPages/aboutDownloadPluginInstructions.seam#17.10) for now, hardy ones will probably be added soon.

[reyfer]

The majority of the computing population doesn't necessarily care what version of a product they get, as long as it performs as they require. CNR.com (http://www.cnr.com) provides that experience for the general populace; those other tools would turn them off...

I love it when someone that DOESN'T EVEN KNOW ME feels that he has the right to talk for me. Now, I ask you, how would getdeb.net, or synaptics for that matter, turn me off?

[Vadi]

CNR's flawed way of doing things has been proved already to S3Indiana, so, no need to go over this again.

Just don't use the thing and hope it dies.

[Asmodeus19]

Thanks for the info.... I have tried this but for some reason the package does not open with the "GDebi Package Installer (default)"..... I will try it again thought.

-Asmodeus19

[S3Indiana]

I love it when someone that DOESN'T EVEN KNOW ME feels that he has the right to talk for me. Now, I ask you, how would getdeb.net, or synaptics for that matter, turn me off?Don't think the post was directed at anyone in particular, but research shows that the majority of computer users are looking for a more intuitive interface like provided at CNR.com (http://www.cnr.com/index.html)...

[S3Indiana]

CNR's flawed way of doing things has been proved already to S3Indiana, so, no need to go over this again.

Just don't use the thing and hope it dies.Shouldn't the response help those that are using CNR on a daily basis?

[S3Indiana]

I am new to the forum and looking for the install procedure for the CNR client. I am actually running Kubuntu 8.04 beta release.... Any help would be appreciated...Thanks for the info.... I have tried this but for some reason the package does not open with the "GDebi Package Installer (default)"..... I will try it again thought.The CNR Client for ubuntu 8.04 is in initial testing, but others have had success (http://forum.freespire.org/showthread.php?p=103654#post103654) (had it running Live yesterday)...

[compiledkernel]

Thanks for the info.... I have tried this but for some reason the package does not open with the "GDebi Package Installer (default)"..... I will try it again thought.

-Asmodeus19

CNR has their own provided website for support.

http://www.cnr.com/supportPages/community.seam -- Community Page
http://support.cnr.com/support.jsp -- Support Page.

Let me re-iterate the current forum policy on 3rd party package management and scripting applications --

http://ubuntuforums.org/announcement.php?f=13/

CNR is not different than the applications listed, and if your seeking further support for the application use their venues , and surely you will receive a better avenue of support.

You should easily be able to find the root of your issues there Asmo.

Cheers.

[Asmodeus19]

Perfect, thanks for the links....

-Asmodeus

[compiledkernel]

Perfect, thanks for the links....

-Asmodeus

No problem Asmo, just tryin to get you steered in the right direction.

[Asmodeus19]

Well, I got the install to work ok, but the funny thing is it does not recognize the distro I am on.... Kubuntu 8.04 beta... I guess I will just wait it out and see if it works once 8.04 is actually released.... Thx all for the help on this.

-Asmodeus

[S3Indiana]

Well, I got the install to work ok, but the funny thing is it does not recognize the distro I am on.... Kubuntu 8.04 beta... I guess I will just wait it out and see if it works once 8.04 is actually released.... Thx all for the help on this.You have a PM (http://ubuntuforums.org/private.php)...

[evertsfnic]

Cnr Will Be A Great Idea. That's Why I Have On My Computer Freespire And Not Ubuntu....

[Foster Grant]

If you want out-of-date software, CNR is your best bet.

For more information, see this thread (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=751899).

[spamzilla]

If you want out-of-date software, CNR is your best bet.

Quite true and as I said in that other thread, there really is no need for this as we already have 3 apps which can do this.

[S3Indiana]

For more information, see this thread (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=751899).Yes Pls. read the posts in that thread...

[Foster Grant]

And while you're at it, read this blog post.

http://kevincarmony.blogspot.com/2008/02/linspires-cnrcom-bye-bye-linux-hello.html

Kevin Carmony is the former CEO of Linspire.

In the first quote, the highlighted portion is my emphasis. In the second, the bold-faced text was bold in the original post.


Unfortunately, since leaving Linspire, it appears the Ubuntu relationship is on the rocks. As a Ubuntu user myself, I'm not surprised. I think the smart thing for Ubuntu would be to simply utilize their own systems, rather than point users to CNR.com, which is what it appears their plan is. I know since I switched to Ubuntu, I haven't even bothered trying CNR.com. The built-in software management system Ubuntu has is a better experience, and all they need to do is add a commercial piece (easy enough for them to do), and they'd have little use for CNR.com. (Ubuntu has hired a couple of ex Linspire employees who could certainly help in this regard as well.)


I noticed when you now visit Linspire's CNR.com site while running Windows, instead of finding thousands of Linux software programs, you will now find a bunch of AJAX applications. This is a typical Michael Robertson move. He's figured out he's lost the Linux game, and my guess is he'll try to salvage what Linspire has built by turning CNR.com into a directory for AJAX applications, perhaps in an attempt to prop up his AJAX business. I predict by year end, the Linux applications are gone all together.

The quotes at the end of the article are rather illuminating.

Don't fall in love with Freespire or CNR, because it may not be around too much longer.

[compiledkernel]

into a directory for AJAX applications, perhaps in an attempt to prop up his AJAX business.

Youd be talking about the countless web applications that are enumerated as actual applications built into CNR. One could easily see this as a way to trump up package counts.

[S3Indiana]

Youd be talking about the countless web applications that are enumerated as actual applications built into CNR. One could easily see this as a way to trump up package counts.There are between 3000 and 4000 web-based (perfectly viable - Google Apps) software applications available at CNR.com (https://cnr.com/index.html), so the remaining vast majority are Linux-based packages...

[compiledkernel]

S3Indiana , I merely stated that a person could see it in that manner, in perception.

If you percieve otherwise, that is your opinion.

[S3Indiana]

S3Indiana , I merely stated that a person could see it in that manner, in perception.

If you percieve otherwise, that is your opinion.How does that affect an objective verifiable number of products in a category?

[Saint Angeles]

I would venture to say I've installed more different distributions builds .iso's than the average Linux user (hundreds more - probably wore out more test machines than the average Linux user has owned :)...

you are cool

[Saint Angeles]

Well.... a newbie doesn't understand what a deb file is....:)

a windows newbie doesnt know what an exe or msi file is either.

how can people speak for all the newbs? i think ubuntu is doing just fine. i've installed ubuntu on about a dozen of my friend's computers since september '07. i've yet to hear a single complaint about how confusing a deb is.

[Foster Grant]

Can you please stop all FUD about CNR.

A user wants to install Skype and Opera, how ?

Find a howto with 100 pages inside a forum ?

"Singing in the rain" ?

:)

Both available in Ubuntu's repositories. Use Synaptic: mark, apply, done.

[Saint Angeles]

Both available in Ubuntu's repositories. Use Synaptic: mark, apply, done.
why do that when you can pay to do it a different way?:lolflag:

[S3Indiana]

why do that when you can pay to do it a different way?No barriers to use (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=4575262#post4575262) still applies...