Nokia Claims Ogg Format is "Proprietary"

[Lostincyberspace]

I was just on slashdot and I found this

"Several months ago a workgroup of the W3C decided to include Ogg/Theora+Vorbis as the recommended baseline video codec standard for HTML5, against Apple's aggressive protest. Now, Nokia seems to be seeking a reversal of that decision: they have released a position paper calling Ogg 'proprietary' (http://www.w3.org/2007/08/video/positions/Nokia.pdf) and citing the importance of DRM support. Nokia has historically responded to questions about Ogg on their internet tablets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_N800) with strange and inconsistent answers, along with hand waving about their legal department. This latest step is enough to really make you wonder what they are really up to."

The link is here. (http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/12/09/2045200)

[undine]

Morons.

[sloggerkhan]

Morons.

agreed.
If you want to use DRM, nobody's stopping you.
But it shouldn't be the standard. A standard should usable by the public without cost and be open, IMO.

[saulgoode]

From the Nokia PDF:

Anything beyond that, including a W3C-lead standardization of a "free" codec, or the active endorsement of proprietary technology such as Ogg, ..., by W3C, is, in our opinion, not helpful for the co-existence of the two ecosystems (web and video), and therefore not our choice.

Is this a typographical error? Or is Nokia attempting to re-define the common usage of the term "proprietary"? Yes, OGG technology is in a sense "owned", however, it is licensed for free usage for any purpose by anyone in perpetuity. The same situation is true for any technology (or copyrighted material, for that matter) which is made free: the "owner" sacrifices his "ownership" by providing a "free" license.

From the Nokia PDF:

Options for W3C include enhanced liaison activity towards bodies such as MPEG and the ITU-T in order to launch projects closer to W3C's view on IPR, suggesting tighter company-internal coordination in those companies which contribute to both "ecosystems", and so on.

W3C standards development has ALWAYS been an open process. No one (government, industry, academia, private individuals) has ever been prevented from participation. Nokia, RealMedia, Adobe/MacroMedia, Microsoft, and the MPEG consortium have historically chosen NOT to work towards open standards for the web (indeed, they have actively promoted against them), and now that free and open development is finally threatening their closed, proprietary formats, they would preach about the W3C not being inclusive.

[akiratheoni]

facepalm.jpg

[klange]

facepalm.jpg
/thread

[n3tfury]

facepalm.jpg

lol

[Colonel Kilkenny]

W3C standards development has ALWAYS been an open process. No one (government, industry, academia, private individuals) has ever been prevented from participation. Nokia, RealMedia, Adobe/MacroMedia, Microsoft, and the MPEG consortium have historically chosen NOT to work towards open standards for the web (indeed, they have actively promoted against them), and now that free and open development is finally threatening their closed, proprietary formats, they would preach about the W3C not being inclusive.

I'd like to hear more examples of situations where Nokia has chosen NOT to work towards open standards for the web and has promoted actively against them...

I don't know much about Ogg Theora/Vorbis patents but somehow I have a feeling that companies like Nokia _might_ know more about issues (like unknown patents etc.) it may have.
And of course Nokia thinks that future of web needs a video format which has some sort of DRM-capabilities. Simply put, they're just saying that they think that <video> isn't happening if it doesn't support DRM because content producers won't allow it to happen without DRM.

Though, I'm still convinced that Ogg is the right selection to HTML5.

[Magnes]

I don't know much about Ogg Theora/Vorbis patents

There are no Ogg patents. Beside Nokia didn't use the word patent, they claimed that Ogg is propertiary.

[edm1]

So is theora open source or not? In what ways does the "BSD style" license differ from GNU GPL?

[23meg]

It's open source. But this isn't about it being open source, or having possible patent issues; the word used was "proprietary". Theora was derived from a proprietary format, but it's not proprietary.

[saulgoode]

I'd like to hear more examples of situations where Nokia has chosen NOT to work towards open standards for the web and has promoted actively against them...
A valid criticism of my comment. I did some last minute rewording of that sentence and I should have removed Nokia from the list.


I don't know much about Ogg Theora/Vorbis patents but somehow I have a feeling that companies like Nokia _might_ know more about issues (like unknown patents etc.) it may have.

It is true that with any product or technology there is some potential of unknown patents which may be applicable. However, the technology behind OGG Theora (VP3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VP3#VP3) and its predecessor "Duck"), has been in development for about 14 years and according to the founder and Chief Technology Officer (until recently) of the On2 Technologies corporation which donated the patents, there was never a challenge made on its patents by a third party. I would add that On2 Technologies is not a babe-in-the-woods when it comes to familiarity with video codec patents -- they liciense other codecs in use by Adobe Flash 8, AOL, and Skype. If I had to hazard a guess, it would be that they know more about it than Nokia.

If Nokia does know of some patent issues, should not it be expected that they specify them? I did not see any mention in that whitepaper of why they labeled OGG to be proprietary and I was serious when I questioned whether it might not by typographical/editing error (perhaps they meant "patented" instead of "proprietary").


Though, I'm still convinced that Ogg is the right selection to HTML5.

I fully agree. The HTML5 WG has not precluded other codecs from being offered in their <video> object draft specification, they are just proposing that OGG Theora be the initial deployment. As an additional note, the Dirac codec (in an OGG container) and the Matroska codec are both candidates for eventual support by the <video> object.

The information in the preceding paragraphs is to the best of my knowledge. I have tried to keep up on things but there is a lot of activity on this front; in fact there is a W3C video workshop scheduled for Wednesday and Thursday in San Jose, California. It will be interesting to see the results of that conference.

There is a great benefit to be had with a browser being able to freely playback web video out-of-the-box for all platforms. The time has come for this to become a reality and I see no reason that those of us who want to share our own video clips, tutorials, and animations should have to wait upon some DRMed solution which only benefits the media conglomerates. They are still free to offer their DRMed Flash or MPEG videos if they wish, but the Internet belongs to everyone.

[macogw]

I don't know much about Ogg Theora/Vorbis patents.
They don't exist. It was designed to avoid patents and be 100% Free as in Freedom.

[23meg]

http://blogs.gnome.org/uraeus/2007/12/10/nokia-on-ogg/

[Colonel Kilkenny]

They don't exist. It was designed to avoid patents and be 100% Free as in Freedom.

The point is that if huge players like Apple or Nokia have any doubt of patent issues they aren't supporting Ogg. And they have totally different resources to examine IP stuff than Xiph. Of course they also have their own interests which also affects their opinions.

That is just how things are going. Earlier this year Microsoft got 1.5 billion dollar fine (IIRC) because of MP3 patent(troll). And that is why big companies like Nokia and Apple are _very very_ careful with Ogg now. If Nokia distributes couple hundred million phones and that causes patent trolls to wake up they might be totally screwed. Sad but true.

Btw. I just read that they removed mentions of Ogg from HTML5 draft (if I understood correctly) and replaced it with text which doesn't mention any specific codec.

[saulgoode]

The point is that if huge players like Apple or Nokia have any doubt of patent issues they aren't supporting Ogg. And they have totally different resources to examine IP stuff than Xiph. Of course they also have their own interests which also affects their opinions.

Both Apple and Nokia are licensors of MPEG-4 technology (Nokia by virtue of their subsidiary, Siemans AG) and indeed hold an interest in competing technologies. That doesn't mean their input should be rejected (and it hasn't), but it does suggest that their interests may not coincide with those of Internet users.


That is just how things are going. Earlier this year Microsoft got 1.5 billion dollar fine (IIRC) because of MP3 patent(troll). And that is why big companies like Nokia and Apple are _very very_ careful with Ogg now. If Nokia distributes couple hundred million phones and that causes patent trolls to wake up they might be totally screwed. Sad but true.

I couldn't agree more. For the case referenced, Microsoft was actually paying for their MP3 licenses (to Fraunhofer) and yet that was not sufficient; a third-party (not really a "patent troll") chose to come forward and assert their own patents after years of silence. Apparently, even making royalty payments for patent licenses is no great assurance of patent protection.

It is indeed a sad state of affairs and it is my opinion that those who are responsible for creating this software patent chaos should no longer be rewarded or encouraged.


Btw. I just read that they removed mentions of Ogg from HTML5 draft (if I understood correctly) and replaced it with text which doesn't mention any specific codec.

If you have a link to this, I would appreciate it. As I stated earlier, today and tomorrow the W3C is holding a workshop attended by industry leaders (including Apple and Nokia) and there will most likely be some important developments in the near future.

[bruce89]

It's a shame that Theora is crap. (quality-wise)

If only Dirac was fast enough.


If you have a link to this, I would appreciate it.

http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=1142&to=1143

[VestniK]

To all who want Ogg/Theora Vorbis to be multimedia codecs for HTML5 objects, please sign the petition:
http://www.petitiononline.com/lortow3/petition.html