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michelcaro
September 8th, 2005, 01:06 PM
I'm a soldier who lost a leg in Iraq.

I came back home in darkness with so many bandages without anybody noticing us.

I have made a vow to myself to reveal the lies of those who stole my life.

Here is the truth they are trying to conceal from you

As casualties mount in Iraq, so has the monetary cost of the war. The military is now spending more than $5.8 billion each month, top officials told Congress this week.

..

The Army, with about 110,000 soldiers on the ground in Iraq, has a monthly "burn rate" of $4.7 billion.

The Air Force is spending about $800 million monthly.

The Marines, which are spearheading the fighting in Fallujah, had an average monthly war cost of $300 million

The US government uses lots of methods to reduce the number of victims:

Only American soldiers are counted into the statistics, and even in this category they don't give the exact numbers

And what if we knew that the US government gave thousands of non-Americans promises of a citizenship if they fight in Iraq

and what if we knew that The US government uses thousands of American, British, and other bounty killers who work for the "special security companies" for high salaries and the US government isn't responsible for their safety

Number of killed soldiers till now: 9,500

Number of wounded soldiers till now: 24,000

Number of deserters: 8,000

War cost till now:
http://costofwar.com/

Number of bounty killers in Iraq: 27,000

Number of bounty killers killed till now: 16,300

Iraqi daily average attacks: 80-90

And u can get a look on this information yourself using this link:

http://cia.555mb.com/

And here

The Ultimate Deception?
By Jim Lampley
June 18, 2005
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/theblog/archive/jim-lampley/the-ultimate-deception_2838.html

Press Reports on U.S. Casualties: About 17,000 Short, UPI Says
By Mark Benjamin, UPI
September 15, 2004
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000630846

20,802 US Soldiers Heavily Wounded By Raed
November 24, 2004
http://raedinthemiddle.blogspot.com/2004/11/20802-us-soldiers-heavily-wounded.html

Their Blood Is In Bush's Hand
(Flash Presentation)
http://www.bushflash.com/ma.html

Murder by Numbers
(Flash Presentation)
http://66.230.230.110/geeklog/public_html/staticpages/index.php?page=20040602204332930

Mapping Death: Iraq War Fatalities: By day: By Country
March 20, 2003 - June 20, 2005
(Flash Presentation)

http://www.obleek.com/iraq/index.html

The Soldier's Heart
PBS Frontline
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/heart/view/

Iraq: The Uncounted
November 21, 2004
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/19/60minutes/main656756.shtml

Stockpiling the Wounded from Iraq
Inside Walter Reed Hospital
By Nicole Colson
June 06, 2005
http://www.counterpunch.org/colson06062005.html

This was a very good read from a year ago.
The warmongers 'love' the troops, until they come home . . . damaged
By Doris H. Colmes
June 29, 2004
http://iraqwar.mirror-world.ru/article/12573

http://www.americanprogress.org
http://www.awitness.org/journal/real_iraq_war.html
http://icasualties.org/oif/
http://antiwar.com/casualties/list.php
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/
http://www.homelandsecurity.org/resources.asp
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/index.html
http://www.crisispapers.org/topics/iraq.htm
http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaki...84537-4865r.htm

psychicdragon
September 8th, 2005, 01:18 PM
You can probably find more biters somewhere else. We don't need this.

lao_V
September 8th, 2005, 01:22 PM
Since World War II, after gaining victory over Japan, it would seem that Americans just LOVE to be in a war. Hardly a decade has gone by without the US being involved in some sort of conflict. I mean why not. After all, just look at how much money is being spent and how much of it goes to the greedy people? It surely must be the biggest business sector!!!

mike998
September 8th, 2005, 01:41 PM
How about a mod locks this thread before the flames start ?

lao_V
September 8th, 2005, 01:47 PM
How about a mod locks this thread before the flames start ?

We are all grown ups here and should be able to share and discuss our opinions. Don't you think modding a thread before its got out of hand a bit repressive? :-)

Kyral
September 8th, 2005, 01:55 PM
I have only three things to say...

All Your Base Are Belong To Us

Somebody Set Up Us The Bomb

For Great Justice!

bob_c_b
September 8th, 2005, 01:57 PM
We are all grown ups here and should be able to share and discuss our opinions. Don't you think modding a thread before its got out of hand a bit repressive? :-)

Seeing that you were the first to throw some gasonline on this flame-fest I am not surprised you are taking this stance. This topic is way off base in a Linux discussion and there are plenty of places around the web to debate politics.

papangul
September 8th, 2005, 02:08 PM
This topic is way off base in a Linux discussion
The spirit of Ubuntu is more open and accomodating than other linux communities, I beleive. Even in geeky gentoo forums there is an "off the wall" section for these kind of "way off" posts.

Brunellus
September 8th, 2005, 02:17 PM
The spirit of Ubuntu is more open and accomodating than other linux communities, I beleive. Even in geeky gentoo forums there is an "off the wall" section for these kind of "way off" posts.
the openness and accomodation here has been largely self-policing, since most regulars here refrain from posting on things that are not even notionally attached to the distribution.

My views on the present administration in the United States--I have many, and some are quite strong--don't belong here. If and when I choose to express them, I find more appropriate fora than a messageboard about a linux distribution.

If you want politics, go to soc.politics, and prepare a long killfile.

lao_V
September 8th, 2005, 02:18 PM
Seeing that you were the first to throw some gasonline on this flame-fest I am not surprised you are taking this stance. This topic is way off base in a Linux discussion and there are plenty of places around the web to debate politics.

Truth is always difficult to swallow :-)

I am not taking any stance. I'm just trying to share my thoughts.

Even though I don't live in the US, I did and would still support the war in Afghanistan, against the Taleban. But the one in Iraq was absolutely unnecessary.

The post was made in the correct thread - Community chat - where you are free to talk about anything and everything. Everyone needs a break from "geekiness" and what better place than a "geeky" forum. Community-chat is the 3rd largest section on this forum.

The guy who posted this thread, michelcaro, provided great resources which should be an eye-opener for lot of people.

I would love to know the opinions of people who think the war was justified.

Knome_fan
September 8th, 2005, 02:18 PM
The spirit of Ubuntu is more open and accomodating than other linux communities, I beleive. Even in geeky gentoo forums there is an "off the wall" section for these kind of "way off" posts.

Yep and take a closer look at OTW on gentoo forums and ask yourself if you want this forums to go down the same road.

lao_V
September 8th, 2005, 02:25 PM
I think if you don't have anything to say related to what the guy had to say in the original post then you should refrain yourself from posting. Share your views but don't slag off others' and we will all be happy badgers!

WirelessMike
September 8th, 2005, 02:37 PM
Truth is always difficult to swallow :-)

I am not taking any stance. I'm just trying to share my thoughts.

The guy who posted this thread, michelcaro, provided great resources which should be an eye-opener for lot of people. If you still want to close your eyes and go back to the dream world then feel free :-)

I would love to know the opinions of people who think the war was justified.

You start your post with "Truth is always difficult to swallow :-)"

This is clearly a strong opinion on the subject matter, yet you follow with "I am not taking any stance." Not true-- Your stance is very clear.

Then you mention that the thread-starter provided great resources, yet he/she only provides support for one side of this issue. "Great resources," in my experience, includes support for BOTH sides of an argument, allowing for good debate or, at the very least, enough information to allow the reader to actually make up his/her own mind on an issue.

If the original post was strongly in support of the war in Iraq, I would offer (and have done so in another forum) these same reasons for refusing to participate in an online debate about it.

What's done is done. My opinion would be limited at this point to the fact that it has dragged on MUCH too long. Anything that could have been accomplished is either done or failed and the whole thing needs to simply end.


***EDIT***
Let me amend this-- I know there are probably good intentions here for discussion, but like the rest, I don't see it going the way it is probably intended. We are united in our love of open source software and one awesome linux distro, let's not divide over politics. You should have an opinion on this-- It's your duty, but debating it here would be fruitless.
***/EDIT***

macgyver2
September 8th, 2005, 02:37 PM
This topic is way off base in a Linux discussion...
I have to add my disagreement here... This topic is no more off-base than a thread about anime or cooking or telling random stories (no disrespect meant to those threads).

Knome_fan
September 8th, 2005, 02:38 PM
I think if you don't have anything to say related to what the guy had to say in the original post then you should refrain yourself from posting. Share your views but don't slag off others' and we will all be happy badgers!

The point people are making is not that they don't have anything to say about the subject, but that this is _not_ the right place to discuss it.

As you seem to be so eager to start a flamewar, as became apparent with your so incredibly balanced and well thought out first post, it doesn't really come as a surprise that you disagree.

However, head over to OTW on gentoo forums, plenty of stupid flamewars to be had there.

YourSurrogateGod
September 8th, 2005, 02:41 PM
I've seen this before on other forums. The original poster makes a post but never comes back to follow up on what he said before. Imo, it's someone that has their own political opinions on this subject and wants to stir things.

KingBahamut
September 8th, 2005, 02:46 PM
What horrid spam is this?

While sentimental, I feel that such attitudes as the original poster's only fuel the current status of that conflict. Certainly dont make it better.

heimo
September 8th, 2005, 03:00 PM
I've seen this before on other forums. The original poster makes a post but never comes back to follow up on what he said before. Imo, it's someone that has their own political opinions on this subject and wants to stir things.

So true, Google confirms:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=michelcaro+%22The+US+government+uses+thousands+o f+American%2C+British%2C+and+other+bounty+killers+ who+%22&btnG=Hae&meta=

:-#

az
September 8th, 2005, 03:11 PM
I've seen this before on other forums. The original poster makes a post but never comes back to follow up on what he said before. Imo, it's someone that has their own political opinions on this subject and wants to stir things.

Let's wait a day to see if the original poster comes back to discuss. in the meantime, this thread will only be locked if it starts to violate the code of conduct. No one is pointing a gun to your head to force you to read this thread or post to it.

Community chat is open and tolerant to a lot of things. Is this spam? I dunno. Some are actually discussing the topic, so I would have to say that it is not spam.

Perhaps in a different community the reaction would have been a lot more extreme and the thread would have had to be closed then and there....

joker
September 8th, 2005, 03:13 PM
2 pages of posts and the majority of the discussion has nothing to do with the origional posters remarks, instead there is a respectful discussion is about his right to post here. This group is a class act :)

lao_V
September 8th, 2005, 03:15 PM
Wikipedia has a great definition on FlameWar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamewar)

lao_V
September 8th, 2005, 03:16 PM
2 pages of posts and the majority of the discussion has nothing to do with the origional posters remarks, instead there is a respectful discussion is about his right to post here. This group is a class act :)

And which group does your post belong in? :)

WirelessMike
September 8th, 2005, 03:22 PM
Wikipedia has a great definition on FlameWar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamewar)

Good point. It certainly hasn't gone far enough at any point so far to worry about a flame war. I concede the point. It could perhaps go that far eventually, but it is in no way headed that direction due to anything posted by any of us so far, and shows no sign of degrading. I'll edit my earlier post accordingly.

bob_c_b
September 8th, 2005, 03:24 PM
You start your post with "Truth is always difficult to swallow :-)"

This is clearly a strong opinion on the subject matter, yet you follow with "I am not taking any stance." Not true-- Your stance is very clear.

Then you mention that the thread-starter provided great resources, yet he/she only provides support for one side of this issue. "Great resources," in my experience, includes support for BOTH sides of an argument, allowing for good debate or, at the very least, enough information to allow the reader to actually make up his/her own mind on an issue.

If the original post was strongly in support of the war in Iraq, I would offer (and have done so in another forum) these same reasons for refusing to participate in an online debate about it.

What's done is done. My opinion would be limited at this point to the fact that it has dragged on MUCH too long. Anything that could have been accomplished is either done or failed and the whole thing needs to simply end.


***EDIT***
Let me amend this-- I know there are probably good intentions here for discussion, but like the rest, I don't see it going the way it is probably intended. We are united in our love of open source software and one awesome linux distro, let's not divide over politics. You should have an opinion on this-- It's your duty, but debating it here would be fruitless.
***/EDIT***

Well said sir.

YourSurrogateGod
September 8th, 2005, 03:35 PM
Let's wait a day to see if the original poster comes back to discuss. in the meantime, this thread will only be locked if it starts to violate the code of conduct. No one is pointing a gun to your head to force you to read this thread or post to it.

Community chat is open and tolerant to a lot of things. Is this spam? I dunno. Some are actually discussing the topic, so I would have to say that it is not spam.

Perhaps in a different community the reaction would have been a lot more extreme and the thread would have had to be closed then and there....
*shrug* I'm skeptical, I seriously doubt that this person will respond.

scourge
September 8th, 2005, 03:50 PM
How difficult is it to just ignore threads like this? Even though I like to discuss politics I don't want to do it here, so I'll just ignore this thread from now on, problem solved. I just hope the old saying "What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas" also works here.

lao_V
September 8th, 2005, 03:57 PM
How difficult is it to just ignore threads like this? Even though I like to discuss politics I don't want to do it here, so I'll just ignore this thread from now on, problem solved. I just hope the old saying "What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas" also works here.

But don't you realise by doing that you've made it alive again? :-)

mike998
September 8th, 2005, 04:04 PM
How difficult is it to just ignore threads like this? Even though I like to discuss politics I don't want to do it here, so I'll just ignore this thread from now on, problem solved. I just hope the old saying "What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas" also works here.

Very wise.

I will do the same, I think.

phen
September 8th, 2005, 05:08 PM
After all WMD stories turned out to be not true and the Al Quida link becomes more and more unlikely, i would love to hear some pro arguments, too.

bored2k
September 8th, 2005, 10:38 PM
How difficult is it to just ignore threads like this? Even though I like to discuss politics I don't want to do it here, so I'll just ignore this thread from now on, problem solved. I just hope the old saying "What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas" also works here.
I'll follow that advice.

angkor
September 8th, 2005, 10:44 PM
Please close it / delete it. He won't come back.

http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/showthread.php?s=&threadid=356535&highlight=iraq+lost+leg

MetalMusicAddict
September 8th, 2005, 11:22 PM
I've seen this before on other forums. The original poster makes a post but never comes back to follow up on what he said before. Imo, it's someone that has their own political opinions on this subject and wants to stir things.
I completly agree. While I like to talk about this subject I think its just bait/spam. It only doesnt belong because it WILL become a flamewar. Should be locked.

drizek
September 8th, 2005, 11:33 PM
yes, please lock this crap.

it just gives people who are anti-war a bad name.

matthew
September 8th, 2005, 11:47 PM
My two cents:

I couldn't care less about your views on the war. You are free to give them just as I am free to ignore them.

If someone who posts in these forums regularly had started this thread I would say, "Cool, let it be discussed." Coming from a community member/participant I think this is the right place for such a discussion.

it was started by someone who had never posted anything previously and who I doubt will be back to participate.

This sort of post and run behavior shows the original poster is not a member of the community and unless he defies my expectations and reappears to participate I would say he isn't eligible to participate in "community chat" since he hasn't actually chosen to become a part of the community. Rather than lock the thread, I suggest the best thing to do in these cases is ignore the post...which I would have done if there hadn't been so many already participating.

The discussion this has turned into is quite interesting for me, though. Like it or not I will value a person's opinion more or less depending on how involved they are in my life and vice-versa. If my wife says something I consider it far more than a stranger telling me the same thing. If a member of these forums who has posted 4000 times gives me advice about partitioning my hard drive I will tend to believe his advice far more than someone who is posting for the first time. Is that fair? Probably not, but odds are their advice is far more valuable.

So, come to the community forum, feel free to post your probable flamebait and spam. I will feel free to ignore you. Just don't get mad when I do.

bored2k
September 9th, 2005, 12:02 AM
"I'm a soldier who lost a leg in Iraq." (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22I%27m+a+soldier+who+lost+a+leg+in+Iraq .%22&hl=en&lr=&start=0&sa=N)
http://www.askmehelpdesk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=40352#post40352
http://www.actionscript.org/forums/showthread.php3?t=82317&page=1&pp=15
http://forums.aliensoup.com/showthread.php?p=151404#post151404
http://forums.petlovers.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10671&page=1&pp=15
http://forum.rfbe.com/showthread.php?p=115#post115
http://www.sheddnet.net/forums/showthread.php?p=5558#post5558
http://www.climbingtalk.com/showthread.php?p=1579#post1579
http://forums.micfo.com/showthread.php?t=2016
http://www.stickpage.com/vb/archive/index.php/t-15542.html
http://www.thefinalfantasy.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-42353.html




Unsolicited e-mail, often of a commercial nature, sent indiscriminately to multiple mailing lists, individuals, or newsgroups; junk e-mail.



1. To send unsolicited e-mail to.
2. To send (a message) indiscriminately to multiple mailing lists, individuals, or newsgroups.

angkor
September 9th, 2005, 12:23 AM
*wonders how many legs the guy lost*

;)

Leif
September 9th, 2005, 12:24 AM
I don't understand what the original poster's position in the community has to do with anything ? Other people, who are definitely part of the community, followed it up and want to discuss it. If people want to discuss a Nigerian email scam, can they not do this ?

As for the original post being partial, so what ? It was a post in a forum, not a newspaper article. Impartiality is not a requirement when presenting your views. (By that logic a post supporting evolution should be followed by extolling the virtues of creationism.)

I am not interested in the original premise of this thread, but I am interested in the code of conduct of this forum. If off-topic threads are not to be allowed, this should be explicitly stated. Otherwise, people can simply ignore threads that are not of interest to them.

MetalMusicAddict
September 9th, 2005, 12:27 AM
*wonders how many legs the guy lost*

;)
HA! I so just spit my drink! :)

YourSurrogateGod
September 9th, 2005, 12:33 AM
I completly agree. While I like to talk about this subject I think its just bait/spam. It only doesnt belong because it WILL become a flamewar. Should be locked.
I've seen politics obliterate good forums. I fear that that might happen here, which is why I refrain from it completely.

KiwiNZ
September 9th, 2005, 12:36 AM
michelcaro if you are a returned service man I apologise .

I am a Father who has two sons in the Army and I am only too aware that they are harms way.

But this thread is crap and I am going to close out of respect for all servicemen who have died or been injured in the service of their country . Least we forget , leat we forget