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jeffchis
December 6th, 2007, 07:38 PM
I posted in the beginners forum, but think I should have posted this over here!!!!

I am going to go back to school for a diploma in website design and will be taking all the below classes. I want to also learn more on my own, but not sure what the best place to go for this is and what the best language would be to start with? Also, with the classes I have listed below, is there a decent job market for those languages? I am in the Atlanta area. Any help would be awesome as I am totally lost right now on where to even begin.

CIS 105 Program Design & Development 5 View
CIS 106 Computer Concepts 5 View
CIS 1140 Network Fundamentals 6 View
CIS 2191 Internet Business Fundamentals 5 View
CIS 2201 Html Fundamentals 3 View
CIS 2211 Web Site Design Tools 6 View
CIS 2221 Web Graphics And Multimedia 6 View
CIS 2231 Design Methodology 6 View
CIS 2261 Javascript Fundamentals 4 View
CIS 2271 Fund Cgi Using Perl 4 View
CIS 2281 Database Connectivity 7 View

LaRoza
December 6th, 2007, 07:42 PM
It looks like you are going to be mostly using XHTML + CSS + JavaScript. They are easy to learn. The course gives a hint of using Perl for CGI, which is an outdated concept, mod_perl is much better, and PHP | Python | Ruby are better for server side programming.

I would start with http://w3schools.com/, do the HTML, XHTML, CSS and JavaScript tutorials, then do the HTML DOM tutorial.

For Perl, http://www.tizag.com/perlT/, although that is out of date, you will learn the basics.

My wiki, http://laroza.pbwiki.com, might have more for you.

If you want, you can look at the source of my site: http://laroza.freehostia.com/home, to see (IMO) well written XHTML and CSS, with ECMAScript (JavaScript).

ThinkBuntu
December 6th, 2007, 07:42 PM
To study? Not sure. Looks like you have solid skills though. The DC tech job market is great; I had no problem getting a web design job right out of high school.

LaRoza
December 6th, 2007, 07:44 PM
To study? Not sure. Looks like you have solid skills though. The DC tech job market is great; I had no problem getting a web design job right out of high school.

I got from the post that the OP is going to take those course, and want to start independently before taking the classes.

pmasiar
December 6th, 2007, 07:49 PM
I don't know about Atlanta job market, but you should understand that HTML is extremely easy to learm, CSS is little harder, so there are many takers, and any kid after high school can compete with you.

Interesting web design starts with dynamic web pages (generated on the server) and then adding AJAX or Flash interactivity. Not sure if you want to do into database programming on the server, or limit yourself to presentation side.

jeffchis
December 6th, 2007, 07:49 PM
Yes, I am looking to take these classes!! So if I am understanding you correctly then, it's not really worth taking these classes as some of them are out of date and would do no good? I guess my biggest question would be then, what is the best way to go about learning and getting the knowledge I need to get a decent job to start programming websites? Is this something I can just do on my own or is schooling needed?

LaRoza
December 6th, 2007, 07:54 PM
Yes, I am looking to take these classes!! So if I am understanding you correctly then, it's not really worth taking these classes as some of them are out of date and would do no good? I guess my biggest question would be then, what is the best way to go about learning and getting the knowledge I need to get a decent job to start programming websites? Is this something I can just do on my own or is schooling needed?

I didn't say that! The Perl class will be benificial, but it is highly unlikely you will write it, maybe maintain it.

It depends, only the knowledge and experience is needed. School can help you learn, and one can learn on their own, it depends on what you want.

jeffchis
December 6th, 2007, 07:56 PM
Okay, well boy am I really lost then! I guess what I would like to program is things that are interesting and you see results, not programming like accounting software or utility software. Does this make any sense? I am just not sure where to turn as there is so many different languages and technologies out there I feel overwhelmed with it all and which direction to go that will give me a solid resume.

LaRoza
December 6th, 2007, 07:59 PM
Okay, well boy am I really lost then! I guess what I would like to program is things that are interesting and you see results, not programming like accounting software or utility software. Does this make any sense? I am just not sure where to turn as there is so many different languages and technologies out there I feel overwhelmed with it all and which direction to go that will give me a solid resume.

For Web Development, learn the following (in the order given)

0. XHTML
1. CSS
2. ECMAScript (JavaScript), use the DOM
3. Server side scripting with Perl, PHP, or Python. I use PHP.
4. Server side scripting with a database, MySQL gets my vote here, with PHP
5. Ajax (this is just a way of using JavaScript, but is important)

And finally, the most important aspect of web development, make sure the sites are standards compliant and valid!

http://www.useit.com read that site, and subscribe to the newsletter.

School might help you a lot, I don't know. If you have doubts, go to school, but don't stop there.

You can buy books for the above topics, if you want a hard reference.

jeffchis
December 6th, 2007, 08:04 PM
Thanks LaRoza!! Now, in learning these will I have a resume that will be suited to obtain some great leads in the job market then? I want to make sure that what I learn now will be something needed long term even though I know something new will come along. Also, what kind of timeframe should I set myself up for in learning each of these? And is going to school for an assoc. degree really even needed then?

Jeff

ThinkBuntu
December 6th, 2007, 08:06 PM
You can teach yourself most any computer skill, and you should only take a class if you need access to some sort of software, which is never in most situations. I'm completely self-taught and the lack of formal education has yet to be an obstacle in the job market. If you want to develop, a CS degree may be beneficial.

Also, I can guarantee that if you're at all a self-learner, you will teach yourself faster than any course could teach you.

jeffchis
December 6th, 2007, 08:08 PM
Thanks so much Think!! Okay, so let's say I don't develop, what else would I do with learning these languages? What do you do exactly Think that you are self taught and no CS degree?

LaRoza
December 6th, 2007, 08:12 PM
Thanks LaRoza!! Now, in learning these will I have a resume that will be suited to obtain some great leads in the job market then? I want to make sure that what I learn now will be something needed long term even though I know something new will come along. Also, what kind of timeframe should I set myself up for in learning each of these? And is going to school for an assoc. degree really even needed then?

Jeff

The best resume is a good site, and referals.

For time, learning XHTML should be fast, using it effectively will take time, CSS takes a little more time, but is easy to understand. I recommend getting a reference book for these, not a "learn" book.

For JavaScript, this will take some time to get use, but will become instinct later, here is the number one book for this: http://www.amazon.com/DOM-Scripting-Design-JavaScript-Document/dp/1590595335

Learning is lifelong, so expect to set aside about 90 years, but you can use XHTML immediately and code along.

Goto: http://laroza.freehostia.com/home/, and view the source, the markup will be very easy to understand. If you use Firefox, with the https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/60, you will be able to inspect the code and view the CSS (which is a little bit compex) and the JavaScript (which is even more complex).

pmasiar
December 6th, 2007, 08:13 PM
Some places will not look at your resume without BS in CompSci. Other places care about having BS in anything, or certification. Yet other care what you did and can do. Depends.

If you want to invest in BS degree, I recommend some other hard science, and learn programming on the side, it is easy enough.

jeffchis
December 6th, 2007, 08:31 PM
okay, now don't laugh as this is going to be a real nubie dumb question! What is the difference between programming and developing? And which of the two will give me a better opportunity out in the field? Oh, did I fail to mention that I am 35yrs old and not really looking to go back to school for a BS in CS or IS....I want to learn something about computers on my own that is interesting and will give me a decent job with a decent supply of those jobs.

pmasiar
December 6th, 2007, 08:57 PM
If your goal is a plain diploma/certification of finishing some courses, IMHO better value than community college would be O'Reilly certification, issued from online department of Urbana-Champlain university. You van learn faster (your own speed) and I do not think that real experts would be teaching it in your local CC. :-)

Programming and developing may be interchengeable by many people. For me "programming" means "coding" (junior level), while "developing" means also architecture and design, not only coding.

Most of courses you mentioned is graphical web design, good if you have artistic background, and title would be "web designer". What is your real background? Maybe you can use programming to solve problems related to your other experience.

Another way to get into IT field is to get some networking certification and go into computer help/support/administration. Security is big now, but might be harder to get certified. Or get .NET certification if they provide any.

Yet another way is to become expert on some web app framework, and contract to solve problems. IIRC, couple of Pylons/Turbogears developers are located in Atlanta area.

So question is, do you care about colors and page looking pretty (not a programming IMHO), or about code working right and being fast?

jeffchis
December 6th, 2007, 09:06 PM
Funny you mention real background!! Let's see, I don't really have a real background persay!! I was a golf professional in my early days, then I happen to stumble accrossed an accting/project management position with the Alltel Corp. I have been in some form or fashion of accting, but I am sick of it and ready to make a serious change into something I would really enjoy doing that has results at the end, not just numbers equalling zero every month.

Mr.popo
December 6th, 2007, 10:14 PM
Hey, this might have been mentioned already in a previous post but if i were you i would go to http://www.w3schools.com/ and learn the following:

* html/xhtml
* css
* Javascript(i wouldnt learn all of it though)
* Php(or python but i havent had experience python so i wouldnt know what its like)
* And i think something very useful to learn would be a graphics program like photoshop or fireworks and how to make layouts with them. I am very experienced with photoshop and think it helps a great deal when i make websites.

jeffchis
December 6th, 2007, 10:20 PM
Thanks mr popo!! That is great info there.....So let me ask, are you a web developer, programmer or designer....or all of the above? And do you have a degree in this field? Also, what is the job opportunity for someone like me with only learning this on my own time and wanting to get into a company doing websites?

Mr.popo
December 6th, 2007, 10:32 PM
Thanks mr popo!! That is great info there.....So let me ask, are you a web developer, programmer or designer....or all of the above? And do you have a degree in this field? Also, what is the job opportunity for someone like me with only learning this on my own time and wanting to get into a company doing websites?

Im only 14 so i dont have degree in this field(hahha) but i like to make websites in my spare time for fun. And i wouldnt know the answer to the second question sorry.

When you get a degree will others be making logo's and layouts for you and then you would code them?. Im not sure really but if i were you i would learn to a use image editing program anyway(I recommend photoshop if your using windows aswell as linux)

bfhicks
December 6th, 2007, 10:33 PM
Web development is so competitive, especially with the kids and technology today. My cousin is 11 years old and has his own website for the family that he hosts with extensive javascript/php/database backends. Teenagers now-a-days are growing up learning these things.

However, designing "GOOD" web pages, ie standards compliant, good usability and such, is a rare thing. (I think of web pages splattered with ads -- just trying to make a $ -- and the content burried somewhere)

If you have no experience in web development at all, I would suggest taking the courses, or before that, try picking it up as a hobby first. Sitting at a computer coding out some stuff is not for everyone!

I might've missed the post, but have you had any experience developing in the past? Have you maintained a webpage, are you seriously interested in doing that? If not, I would try the hobby route before change of profession.

Also, do you have someone in mind that could profit from a web page? Are there any companies looking for web developers your age without experience? Some companies might just want people to do the grunt work (which I would NOT want to do) like sit there and write what they tell you to do.

I babble...All in all I would try it out first before spending money on classes.

pmasiar
December 6th, 2007, 11:05 PM
then I happen to stumble accrossed an accting/project management position with the Alltel Corp.

I assume 'accting' == 'accounting'?

So you don't have algebra/math background (which could suggest inclination to programming) or art background (~ web graphics design)?

How you decided you want to make living in computing/IT? Did you ever tried to write any program? Design webpage? Design a nice printable brochure?

Possibly with your kinda understanding accounting/management side, you may consider technical support/help desk position. It is less "geeky", more talking to people, and you can learn programming later as you go. Programming is easy for people who do it many years, or wunderkids, but it is not obvious for non-programmers. Try some Python tutorial to find out if you will like it.

I assume you planned some kind of post-high-school diploma or certification, kind of 2 years in community college? because if you want something more (and more into management), consider also BS in IT + MBA track. Depends of what state universities have in your area.

It is not easy to advise you, you are kinda restarting your career, do you want to fresh start (then: what are your strong skills), or do you want to try to build on top of what you learned so far? Do you play with computer as a hobby? What do you do on PC? Do you help other people? Do you install software? Did you installed ubuntu?

What are your expectation, beyond having safe job with good salary?