Need some help with a Linux vs. Windows debate

[BWF89]

Ok, I made this thread (http://www.gamerplug.com/showthread.php?t=52388) yesterday to show people all the cool open source programs there are. And someone responded with this:

Linux can be summed up with this quote:

"To install Joe's program, you need Bob's kernel hack, but for Bob's kernel hack, you've got to have Suzy's patches, but Suzy's patches only work with a year-old kernel, unless you get Mike's patches to Suzy's patches, but even then, those conflict with Jeff's drivers, which can be resolved only by installing Nancy's patches... "

Why linux sucks: http://www.spatula.net/proc/linux/index.src

EDIT: Linux gets hit by virus' just the same: http://archives.cnn.com/2001/TECH/c....idg/index.html

NT is over 2 times faster than Linux: http://www.mindcraft.com/whitepaper...ts4rhlinux.html
How should I respond to that?

Oh and I allready convinced this Windows from Gamerplug to start useing Openoffice as soon as he gets a better computer!

[knappen]

Ha ha, that was a really good quote!

Well IMHO that was the case some years ago but today it has become so much easier to install software for Linux. Have you had a look in the Universe repository?

What I like about Ubuntu, and other distros as well, is that I have access to so many programs and can easily install them from just opening one window. I like GUIs so I use the Synaptic Package Manager which installs and uninstalls programs, and most importantly resolves all dependancies that used to be a big problem.

I cant say that I dont like Windows, I just prefer Linux.

[ChrisP]

HI BW :)

Linux newbie myself; dual booting win 2k and suse, running the Ubuntu live cd and wondering if i can manage to triple boot. ...

Only ended up with linux due to getting hit with windows viruses, adware etc. Now im here i like it and I love the politics and thinking behind it ,but if you had tried to persuade me when my windows system was working well (basically 1998 to 2004), then for me all your efforts would be wasted; would not matter which linux "guru" joined the debate :)

IMHO try and get your friends and family persuaded rather than waste your effort in an online forum. If those guys need to switch they will!! - odds are they are sussed with security etc and windows does what they need atm.

Just my thoughts. All the best ,

Chris.

[knappen]

I agree. In this forum we all love Ubuntu Linux! Most of us anyway :-)

What I hear the most is that Linux is for experts and is difficult to use. Well I am no expert and it works fine for me.

[arctic]

"To install Joe's program, you need Bob's kernel hack, but for Bob's kernel hack, you've got to have Suzy's patches, but Suzy's patches only work with a year-old kernel, unless you get Mike's patches to Suzy's patches, but even then, those conflict with Jeff's drivers, which can be resolved only by installing Nancy's patches... "

this kind of "problem" does not really exist anymore, as almost every gnu/linux distribution uses a package manager of some kind that takes care of dependencies. also it is quite seldom that any older package cannot be used with a newer compiler. in case that there ain't the rpm or deb file someone is looking for, he can still compile every package from scratch. this is why it is open-source. try that in windows.

try to run winxp apps in win95 or win-nt and you will run into serious problems. or try running some win95 apps in winxp. no way. this is especially true for drivers. have you ever seen a windows-os that does not need any drivers? not me. you need dozens of drivers and need to reboot your system every now and then. with linux, i get one kernel (which can easily updated by a noob) that has 99% of all "drivers" that someone might need. and in case you need to install a driver/module manually, you CAN do it by yourself. it is not difficult at all. you could also extract the module from e.g. a rpm and build a deb-file with it. now, how will you extract a win95 driver and build a winxp driver with it in order to get your old but functioning hardware running in xp?

viruses: currently, there are some eight to ten viruses for linux. these are well known and almost useless crap. linux viruses are harder to code because linux is a lot safer by default and has a superior programming structure. in a linux system, you usually have one or two firewalls plus several encripted passwords and a secure root environment (unless someone does something very stupid). a guy in the us set up a debian box once without any firewalls and told everyone to hack the thing. it took the hackers more than two months to get into that box. and that without use of a firewall! show me a windows-box that is this secure. never seen one.
viruses cannot cause as much damage in linux as in windows because only the home folder could actually be infected. a linux user does not have root-rights by default. a windows user always has. this is why windows is much more likely to get destroyed by viruses and trojans.

NT is faster than linux: it always depends on "who" made the statistics. most statistics we see in the news/magazines are sponsored by microsoft. thus, i do not trust any of them.
i have used both win nt and linux servers and things were never slower with linux than with nt. actually nt was more problematic than anything else. and now, as nt is not supported anymore, what will you do with your nt-servers and desktops? upgrade them? are you kidding? :D

[ChrisP]

Arctic, call me a cynic but i have no faith in the "linux is immune" school of thought. Too many clever people in the world today!!! ; i don't care how bombproof it seems atm but it is going to be a big target soon IMHO. Im an optimist and think that open source will be hanging on the bad guys tails and problems willl be quickly sorted, but fer gads sake don't hang linux on that peg ;)

Course, as a newbie, i could be speaking rubbish :D

[poptones]

"To install Joe's program, you need Bob's kernel hack, but for Bob's kernel hack, you've got to have Suzy's patches, but Suzy's patches only work with a year-old kernel, unless you get Mike's patches to Suzy's patches, but even then, those conflict with Jeff's drivers, which can be resolved only by installing Nancy's patches... "

How should I respond to that?

Challenge the person to install win2k from a CD, then install Microsoft's vc studio 6 on that system and get it all working in less than four hours.

Or install XP OOTB without a firewall, then get online to microsoft and download XPSP2 before the machine gets so owned he has to reformat and do it all over again.

ANY system can be owned. If it's connected to the public internet (in any fashion) then there's someone out there with the skills needed to crack it. The difference here is we're talking "someone with skills attacked and cracked my machine" vs. "Some idiot stuck a robot on his webpage and now my system can't be trusted because I was hijacked to a porn TGP from google." That is, if you ever accepted the notion that windows could have been trusted from the start.

The install nightmare he's talking about is if you need to install some shiny new piece of prototype software. It's apples and oranges - he's comparing the trouble one will have installling prototype software (something like Beagle, for instance) with installing packaged windows software, which is almost universally proprietary and so is never released before it is at least a bit maintainable.

Ask him when's the last time he had the chance to install Microsoft's latest disk drivers, or the longhorn desktop utilities on his system.

With windows, you don't have the option to try the latest enhancements until somebody "blesses" you with a package. With linux, you can ride as close to the bleeding edge as you have patience and skiil (or the desire to develop said traits). He's comparing absense of choice with the responsibility of choice, and defending "no choice" as the better option simply because one needs skills to exercise one's liberties that he doesn't possess.

[stodge]

"To install Joe's program, you need Bob's kernel hack, but for Bob's kernel hack, you've got to have Suzy's patches, but Suzy's patches only work with a year-old kernel, unless you get Mike's patches to Suzy's patches, but even then, those conflict with Jeff's drivers, which can be resolved only by installing Nancy's patches... "

How should I respond to that?

Challenge the person to install win2k from a CD, then install Microsoft's vc studio 6 on that system and get it all working in less than four hours.

Or install XP OOTB without a firewall, then get online to microsoft and download XPSP2 before the machine gets so owned he has to reformat and do it all over again.

ANY system can be owned. If it's connected to the public internet (in any fashion) then there's someone out there with the skills needed to crack it. The difference here is we're talking "someone with skills attacked and cracked my machine" vs. "Some idiot stuck a robot on his webpage and now my system can't be trusted because I was hijacked to a porn TGP from google." That is, if you ever accepted the notion that windows could have been trusted from the start.

The install nightmare he's talking about is if you need to install some shiny new piece of prototype software. It's apples and oranges - he's comparing the trouble one will have installling prototype software (something like Beagle, for instance) with installing packaged windows software, which is almost universally proprietary and so is never released before it is at least a bit maintainable.

Ask him when's the last time he had the chance to install Microsoft's latest disk drivers, or the longhorn desktop utilities on his system.

With windows, you don't have the option to try the latest enhancements until somebody "blesses" you with a package. With linux, you can ride as close to the bleeding edge as you have patience and skiil (or the desire to develop said traits). He's comparing absense of choice with the responsibility of choice, and defending "no choice" as the better option simply because one needs skills to exercise one's liberties that he doesn't possess.

How should you respond? Don't bother! Obviously some people will argue the Windows vs Linux debate to death and never see the pros and cons of both. Just ignore them do something more interesting. These debates are tedious and pointless.

[BWF89]

IMHO try and get your friends and family persuaded rather than waste your effort in an online forum. If those guys need to switch they will!! - odds are they are sussed with security etc and windows does what they need
I have tried to get my parents onboard and all they came up with was:
"We like Windows. We were so happy when we got Windows XP. Everything was running fine until you installed all this crap on the pc". And by crap they mean Firefox, Gaim, and all those open source programs...

I even told my dad about how Microsoft makes each of it's OS's more resource hogging than the last so Intel can sell more chips. You know how he responded? He said something like "So, what's wrong with that? By doing that they are making computers better and faster. It's just buisness" He didn't see ONE THING wrong with that...

Until Linux hits mainstream in 8-10 years I don't think my parents will even think of switching over...

[jdong]

Just relax. Some people are such Windows fanatics that they will fight to the death... Let them live.


On the other side, unfortunately Linux fanatics are starting to show up -- people refusing to sit in front of a Windows workstation, and that one tightwad at Gentoo Forums who started a flamewar because a poor newbie was using Atheros Wifi drivers (they were under a 'proprietary' license, with source)

[Gibbz]

Yeah ive just started using linux a little more, i still dont see if as easy to use and setup as windows, hence i wouldnt let total newbies near linux(unless all they wanna do is use office). I know i always have lots of trouble with linux, a big problem is the heavy reliance on the console and no easy to use gui tools to replace these.

I rarely if ever have to use the console in windows unless doing advanced stuff, i think it should be the same for linux, but unfortunately its not.

Example: my linux box network is currently set to 10mbs, however i cannot seem to force it to 1Gbps(gigabit lan here), ive tryed many console commands/newr drivers/editing files etc... In windows i can just goto the device manager click network and from a pulldown menu select my speed.

Tho i do see the importance of linux, and why some people prefer it. I dont see it ready for general desktop(your average Joe) use yet.

[jdong]

Tho i do see the importance of linux, and why some people prefer it. I dont see it ready for general desktop(your average Joe) use yet.
A caution about mr. Average Joe:

Traditionally with operating systems, there has been a sharp division between users and administrators. Windows has dangerously sealed that gap.

While it's OK that Joe installs Office and AIM, and defrags his system weekly and cleans unused programs / temp files monthly, soon enough Joe will start setting up IIS (or be hired to do so :!: ).................

[Gibbz]

A caution about mr. Average Joe:

Traditionally with operating systems, there has been a sharp division between users and administrators. Windows has dangerously sealed that gap.

While it's OK that Joe installs Office and AIM, and defrags his system weekly and cleans unused programs / temp files monthly, soon enough Joe will start setting up IIS (or be hired to do so :!: ).................


and what is wrong with him setting up IIS and other more advanced software?
I dont think your average parent(who i see as average Joe) would really do much besides checking email, web browsing, playing a few online games, and using their computers for photo/movies....

[jdong]

Last year with the worm outbreaks, all the trouble boiled down to people with poorly configured/secured servers being turned into zombies.

Joe who improvises-as-he-sets-up-IIS probably will leave a few security holes -- potentially harming other innocent people.

[poptones]

Another thing about average joes: average joes (and janes) have no need to change their network card configurations because they don't know it has settings. I worked phone support for one of the big online retailers and you wouldn't believe how many people don't even know how to access the windows control panel.

I setup a 43 year old "average jane" with linux about six months ago after (for the umpteenth time) repairing her windows pc. She's one of those game junkies that spends most of her time at places like popcap, and her machine was chronically owned. I told her she'd probably not be able to play those games if we put her on linux, she said she wanted it anyway. She's having withdrawals from the cheezie games, but still doesn't want to go back to windows because even with the proprietary motorola winmodem linux driver locking up from time to time while she's online, this system still works more reliably than it did when she had windows on it.

I was over there the other day and her 16 year old daughter had figured out how to put wine on it and proudly showed me the stuff she installed so she could rip mp3s for her portable. Mom's been trying to play more popcap with wine, but it doesn't work because no activex. I sent mom a link to a cedega package; I'm curious to see if daughter can get it working on her own.

With windows you bring the system home from the store and plug it in. It works fine until it needs reloading - then you get to either reload it from the included CD that wipes everything, or you get to reload it the old fashion way from multiple disks, which will likely mean a call to tech support because joe doesn't know how to install everything. Or maybe joe doesn't even know it needs those other CDs, so now just uses the system "broken" at 800x600x16 bits for the next year because he can't get the resolution to change to something better.

There's a bazillion ways to screw up windows. People who have a modicum of technical expertise forget this because they're familiar enough with it to make it work most of the time. But linux isn't any worse than windows at all in this regard, and in many ways its far better - you can even buy linux machines off the shelf. So long as you don't change the hardware (or you buy new hardware from the HCL) you're actually MORE likely to have a plug and play experience in linux as in windows because those "drivers" come OOTB.

[Karnaugh]

How should I respond to that?

Right. People need to realise, that all Operating Systems have their strengths, weeknesses, uses and targets. There is no jack of all trades, and thats a good thing.

As for how to respond to people who rant and rave about how good X operating system is, its best to ignore them in their blissfull ignorance of the world.

[az]

Open source operating system are updated every day. Windows is updated every year.

You have fewer conflicts with windows because you don't get a choice. With choice comes the need for using your brain. Generally, if someone is satisfied with something and you change it, they are unhappy.

There is nothing wrong with my inlaws using windows with 800X600 display to check their emails. Whatever turns their crank. Again, a choice.

Linux will probably hit the mainstream in a few years. The 2.6 kernel is specifically aimed at improving the usability for desktop users, much like the 2.4 kernel was aimed at servers. There has been so much improvement inthe past two years (browsers, openoffice, dvd-recording)

The most laughable anti-linux argument from the head of Microsoft was something along the lines of (while bashing his fist)
"Who is going to support open-sourced software? There is no clear line of responsability for the client who is using this stuff..."
The answer to that is in the fast that most open-source companies make their money by selling support. You do not buy the product, you buy the help of competent professionals who can solve any of your problems because they have access to the inner working of the produst. If you have a problem with windows, does the average desktop user have clear line of responsability to microsoft who will fix the problem? Or will they only take care of their high-paying customers?

[FLeiXiuS]

Linux is not only for complete customization, its also for computer geeks who know what we want out of a computer. Can you compile your own windows kernel? Of course not. And windows has a lot of dependacies also. Ever hear of DLL's? Thats the problem with windows, its install is so huge. Over 3-4GB now a days. Where as my Ubuntu install was only..600-700MB's. You can't precisely get that out of a windows machine. Windows is for users who want everything to be spoon fed to them. They aren't willing to work for whats better for them. Perhaps why there are so many exploitable windows machines out there. That quote is just too overrated from the windows user. I bet he hasn't even installed linux, or he stole the quote from his friend because hes 100% d0ze.

[HungSquirrel]

Actually, a Windows XP Pro install is about 1.5 gigs and comes with practically no extra software. Linux distros take up anywhere from 50MB to several gigs, but most of that is usually software that isn't absolutely essential to the OS.

Along those lines, my favorite MS argument is that Windows is actually more secure than Linux because you find more vulnerabilities for Linux...if by "Linux" you count tons of extra apps like Apache, etc. Amusing!

[jdong]

lol, do apt-get install lib*; apt-get install *lib and never run into dependency issues again... That's what Windows does!

[r_a_trip]

BWF89, You are preaching to the wrong choir. They all chant Windows, Windows and then you come along and start the FOSS hymn. They'll just get annoyed.

Don't try to waste your efforts on people not willing to listen. You started this thread on a Gamers forum. The bulk of PC Gamers are Windows Afficionados. They will defend Windows even it it ate their hamster and scared their mom, because Windows is the only platform that will give them the broadest game support.

In this particular case all the flaws of Windows will be brushed away, because it is not convenient to look at alternatives. Their gaming experience turns around the ability to play 90 % of available titles on Windows. If for some reason they are forced to use something else, they lose access to 90% of all available games.

Maybe they instinctively feel that even the possibility of an alternative is threatening to their accustomed gaming situation. Now they have "One OS to Rule Them All". If GNU/Linux gets 50% market share, they will either have to start dual booting or make choices between available titles. This is detrimental to the all encompassing gaming experience they have right now.

As for parents, I did some posturing and said I was not willing to support Windows, because it was too time consuming to keeping up with updates, virrus scanners, firewalls. (This was a white lie, because I would have supported Windows if they had kept Windows as a demand.) I offered to support GNU/Linux and got the answer that Windows would be easier. I thought that this was funny, because they both never really touched a computer before.

I explained that it would be as hard and as easy to learn GNU/Linux as it would be to learn Windows, as they didn't know either. I must have been pretty convincing, because they have been using GNU/Linux happilly for 8 months now and they are on Ubuntu since the pre-release Warty days.

They are glad they don't have to mess with myriads of virusses, spyware, adware, worms, pop-ups, dialers and "sick" Windows installs. They hear all sorts of horror stories from their friends and they acknowledged that I was right to get them on GNU/Linux.

I don't know your situation, but you could just slowly cut yourself out of the "support" loop. I'm guessing here that you have the support role right now, judging by the "installed crap" statement. If you are "on the family-computer" you could get something like a Mandrake Move Live-CD and a large enough USB Flashdrive to put your Home directory on. This way you wouldn't touch their Windows and still be able to use the tools you like.

I don't think converting unwilling people is the way. Let reality deal with them. Someday GNU/linux will come and steamroll over them as it passes by. No need to save them from this tidal wave, when it comes they can start learning to deal with it, even if they could have before the pressure was on.

[arctic]

it might soudn a bit pessimistic, but most pc-users are gamers. that is a sad fact. die to this, i doubt that linux might reach more than 30% marketshare but... hey, 30% is about 6 times as much linux-users we have today and round about 6 times more than there are mac-users.
i agree, you won't really be able to persuade the hardcore gamers. but convincing those who need a stable and working desktop should be an easier task although even there, there are some weird things happening. take e.g. my press-office. we worked with apple-computers for more than 10 years. now, the directive has decided, due to problems in administration with macs, in order to make all offices in the different cities more compatible to each other and because our new software was designed for windows-xp, that we will switch to windows-xp. the reaction from my colleagues was: "are they mad? we were able to produce our newspapers while all others were suffering from the blaster-worm... now it will be only a matter of weeks before our systems will be plain dead." and the change will cost them over 100 000 € in the next weeks. the directive has not even thought of using e.g. apache-servers... doh. so you see, some people will not learn and do not want to learn. they stick with something that they "know" and that's it. even if it has more downsides than upsides...

[mr_ed]

"Everything was running fine until you installed all this crap on the pc". And by crap they mean Firefox, Gaim, and all those open source programs..."

Heh. Well... you should do them a "favour" then and remove them.
Then let them see how wonderful it is. ;)

[wallijonn]

For your parent's computer I would either suggest you go with caddies so that you can swap in your HD when you want to use Ubuntu or add an external USB2.0 HD so that you can run Ubuntu. That way you never touch their system; all you do is change the boot priority in the BIOS and reset it for them when you log off. If you partition their HD use a GRUB floppy to start your Ubuntu - that way you don't touch their HD. You can add your own internal HD, disconnect their HD while you install Ubuntu. WHen you're finished, reconnect their HD as master, then use the BIOS to boot into your HD. You disconnect their drive so that GRUB doesn't get installed on their drive. When you need to boot into Ubuntu first go into the BIOS and set the boot priority to your HD.

If they are happy with Windows then let them be happy. You cannot convert anyone to Linux anymore that you can convert someone from their religion or political party.

Yes, Linux still tends to have "dependency hell". But that is not to say that everything in WXP is flawless. If you use WXP and Outlook2000 you should find that it cannot use MAPI (but it works in W2K). If you have the MS Photoshop type program you should find that it doesn't work in WXP (but it works in W2K). At least this is what happened to me. My option was to upgrade to Outlook2003 for $99.99. Or use Evolution. I kept the money in my pocket. I paid $400 for MSO 2000 and don't wish to pay another $400 for MSO 2003. No, I don't buy "update" packages as it usually means that I have to install the old app. before I can install the new app. I don't buy "update" OSes either, for the same reason.

Besides, cleaning Windows of Viruses, trojans, worms, bho, spyware is big business. Your Windows running slow? That'll be $79.99, please. I usually charge $39.99. Yes, I can install FireFox for you. That'll be $39.99, please. You want me to format your drive and re-install WXP? That'll be $150.00, please. I will usually install WXP, SP2, security patches, DX9, updates, drivers, etc. You don't have the original WXP CD and you don't have the License? That'll be $450, please. I usually charge $400. You get a WXP CD and license, I install SP2, security patches, updates, DX9, MP10, spyware guard, spybot, Firefox, Thunderbird, Openoffice, PicPerk, anti-virus installed, install the latest BIOS, chipset, video, sound, nic, usb drivers, Everything else is extra. And you're getting the better part of the bargain.

[BWF89]

Don't try to waste your efforts on people not willing to listen. You started this thread on a Gamers forum. The bulk of PC Gamers are Windows Afficionados. They will defend Windows even it it ate their hamster and scared their mom, because Windows is the only platform that will give them the broadest game support.
Gamerplug.com is PS2 and X-Box only...

It would save alot of headaches if I just got my own computer. If I had my own PC (instead of duel booting or external harddriving) I could leave my computer on all day and not have to show my mom how to get Windows back up everytime she wants to do something. If I had my own computer I could run SETI@Home pretty much all day. When 2/3 of the people in your house run Windows on a computer and you run Linux it would just get to be too much bother logging out of Linux and back into Windows everytime I wanted to get of...

Besides, shoveling driveways is good money. You charge $10 for 1 driveway and if you do 2-4 driveways a day that money really adds up. Just doing 2 driveways a day adds up to $140 a week! And I'm planning on getting a custom computer from Northgate (http://www.northgate.com/content/products/DIYbundle.cfm) ...

[r_a_trip]

Gamerplug.com is PS2 and X-Box only...

I wonder if they only game on PS2's and Xboxes than and don't own any PC titles.... :twisted:

Getting your own rig is probably the best option.