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siddartha
November 29th, 2007, 02:59 AM
Hello,

Is there such a place on the web? Myself I am sick of getting crap information because packagers thought it is cool like that or because the undeveloped developer wants to push his app wasting other people's time and energy.

And the web is full of examples. I will ignore the slashdot results. Anyway, you can have an app like jUploadr - a nice try in java from programmer 3bln of Java. Him or his fans spam the net with his app being able to post pictures to zooomr. It has been months with no such results yet, you have to stay and dig for answers through the comments on the site in order to find out that is not yet possible. They do not have the decency to omit this wonderful feature untill it is valid.

I would try to believe firefox is what it says to be... it isn't since 0.4! Or it was 0.5 the last time they were showing the size loss. Now... it is as big and as slow as Mozilla, but for the features you rely on third party addons that have terrible problems. Some blame the addon makers for the bloat and crashes. I'd say it's the half experienced developers who can't make a true crash-less environment for the third party programmers who are actually making their life easier. SVG? Some. Acid test? In the future... a flash plugin which crashes by itself without taking the whole 'experience' down? No way! They're on the way of making money from endorsements. A great thing as it proves you can live from open source. But I can't see a site saying that the IE7 competition is only slightly better and it bases its succes on being used on other systems than Windows.

Yahoo Messenger? God forbid! The yahoo rpm is the same for years, I doubt they would let it join the network. And it's missing most features anyway. Gaim? Lots of publicity. Another team bound to make money from advertising. The sound and video support is waiting for some years now. I read somewhere that the gaim-vv team has done its job but the main developer was too busy sucking up to google so he could not join the donated code. The interface is changing getting more complex than dumber, moving as the firefox development - this year we are making the code small and convince the world our code is better, next year we are inflating the app and give the results from two years ago with a polished interface and a new set of bugs. Gaim is so badly schetched as it couldn't handle well for years the multiple identities for the yahoo accounts.

Office work? OpenOffice does work in comparison with the above examples. But it's huge. And it promises to get even bigger. It works better than the older Microsoft Offices and it is stable. But you have to use a lor more memory and CPU power to make it run smooth. And there is no pertinent info accessible about the alternatives. I even asked this forum and most answers were like try it yourself... there are good apps out there that still work as they should work - withouth waste of resources and the packs are not that big, yet, no in depth review.

Heck, even the distribution reviews are diving in the same crap. I mean there are only a couple of true reviews for a distribution. The rest of the kids are making the same mistakes from 10 years ago talking and talking about how it installs. About the apps and how they integrate - zero. After all the regular yuppie has no training in usability, he/she just thought that's a good way to generate some traffic to my site. The idea of examining the install is brain dead in the beginning as you either have a newbie and he/she should have the System preinstalled or you have somebody who has done it already and he/she can navigate through the problems as he/she knows where to look for help.

And so on...

So, do you gentle users of ubuntuforums know any good site?

Cheers,
Sidd

dpar
November 29th, 2007, 03:06 AM
Any software reviews are just opinions, and opinions are just that. They are not necessarily "True".

Inxsible
November 29th, 2007, 03:16 AM
Myself I am sick of getting crap information because packagers thought it is cool like that or because the undeveloped developer wants to push his app wasting other people's time and energy.
I even asked this forum and most answers were like try it yourself... there are good apps out there that still work as they should work - withouth waste of resources and the packs are not that big, yet, no in depth review.
So, in short, you are disregarding every reviewer and the developers.

The good thing about Linux is, you have choice !

You can choose not to use the applications that you don't want. Don't use Gaim, if you think it is lacking. Use something else. Now I can suggest a few apps to you, but who's to say that you won't disregard them too. But IMO, they are good apps because they do what I want them to do (I - being the key word)

Like dpar said, opinions are just that. And the opinion that you form yourself, will probably be the best solution for you-- hence the advice of you using the apps and deciding yourself.

You seem to be contradicting yourself, when you say that you don't want to read reviews from users and then you don't even want to try the apps yourself and find out.

That really grinds my gears !

diatribe
November 29th, 2007, 03:18 AM
OP used a whole lot of words to say absolutely nothing

LaRoza
November 29th, 2007, 03:23 AM
So, do you gentle users of ubuntuforums know any good site?


I wouldn't describe me as "gentle", but if you don't want Linux and its attendand benifits and drawbacks, I suggest:

http://www.apple.com/macosx/

Or

http://www.microsoft.com/en/us/default.aspx

You are free to do anything you want, including:

* Use another OS
* Fix the flaws you see
* Work with what already exists because it is good enough

Grey Box
November 29th, 2007, 03:35 AM
Erm, in all fairness, OP has a point.

I have found that for every 4 or 5 distro reviews I find one useful one, but after a while you get to know what's good and what's not in distro reviewers. But isn't it the same if you want to buy a camera or a fridge or a car? You'll get 4 or 5 'fanboy' reviews and paid crap by someone, and then you'll get a review by someone who actually uses the distro and writes from a perspective that resembles your own.

Quality control for packages is difficult. Stable, functional applications are hard to accomplish for programmers. Have you ever done any software development? The first 1000 or so lines of code are the easiest, for example, as you just outline the different functions you want your program. Then you actually try it out and find stuff breaking everywhere because other people's stuff doesn't behave as documented etc., and you only tested it on your own setup which, generic though it may be, didn't have its settings randomly changed as occurs on so many other distros. Plus, a lot of innovative stuff is being designed by people who don't have much programming expertise (not that I have any either, mind you!), but who have a niche interest in a certain functionality (eg: posting stuff to a specific website). If you expect top notch quality first off for something that's not been done before, you're never going to get it.

Yahoo and other commercial setups providing software for Linux are difficult to get on board. They care about money and the Linux world is, to them, hostile to their profit motives.

So after lots of pain and anguish I found that you have to take a measured approach to it all. Ubuntu offers to me stability in the big things and enough innovation and cutting edge stuff that I can tinker with to keep me happy. Other distros are more or less the same, actually. SuSE with its commercial backing still ends up with showstopper bugs as often as anything else.

But ultimately compare it to the others. Have you ever used OS X? Beautiful for the first few days, or weeks or months, but then out of nowhere your OS gets fried because fickle Apple wants to pull the rug from under you because you breached some kind of legal bind (eg: iPhones getting bricked, or Bootcamp beta expiring to force you to get Leopard). Microsoft deliberately gives you a broken product to please the government, etc.

The answer is to be realistic about features. The more you want stuff that few other people need, the less likely it is to work properly. The more you venture away from the norm, the more you should backup your work and keep notes of what you're doing.

siddartha
November 29th, 2007, 12:00 PM
Any software reviews are just opinions, and opinions are just that. They are not necessarily "True".

I am not looking for the 'true' review. And I know they are already biased as everyone is subjective. BUT,
1. some place where there are reviews for the sake of reviews and not to get hints, money and gadgets. With other words a place where people do not get paid directly or indirectly by the endorsed company and a place where people don't even think about such a gesture. Because it is one thing not to take into consideration the rewards and make sincere reviews and another thing to suck up to the company hoping that they will add you on their list of corporate Christmass presents.
2. a place where the reviewers have some experience and they have an idea of what are they talking about. Because there are so many sites that make reviews like and another minus to this app is that the menu is not like I am used to with Photoshop as this type of thinking made the Evolution mail client be just a silly, overweight Outlook clone in GTK. Years ago it wasn't like that.

siddartha
November 29th, 2007, 12:22 PM
So, in short, you are disregarding every reviewer and the developers.

Now, please point me how I wrote or insinuated something like that. You're using big words to reply to a message that you haven't read well.


The good thing about Linux is, you have choice !

This is one good example of what I believe to be a bad reviewer. Using old quotes to spice up the review. This line was as usefull at this point as quoting some EA Poe lyrics about futility of life. The purpose of the initial message was to ask for help from the community. I want to know if a site like that is existing. The rest was just a list of pointing out the problems of the community in general at this moment in time and history. And instead you comment on the arguments.

Let's say you are right and the arguments are wrong. Let's say for arguing sake that Gaim is a great piece of software, that firefox is not the only browser in the market (but it's quite sure that the browser market is quite limited as it goes with any piece of code going beyond the 1000 line barrier). I am terribly wrong. Would this make my need for an informed site that doesn't spread kowingly or unknowingly advertising into something else?


You can choose not to use the applications that you don't want. Don't use Gaim, if you think it is lacking. Use something else. Now I can suggest a few apps to you, but who's to say that you won't disregard them too. But IMO, they are good apps because they do what I want them to do (I - being the key word)

Now this is one problem I discovered over the time with the forums. Lots of guys who say I have your answer but will you need it? This is plain sick. Even if you do have the answer - you are not helping anyone but your message counter. Some ten years ago there you had people asking for more details or people answering the way they could, trying to help. With the move of Linux closer to the mainstream and Linux becoming cooler by the week there started the highschool attitude. Human, this is wrong.

To get back to your message: the point is not gaim. I agree the message was a big too long for some to follow, but the point was the existance of a place with good information.

As for alternatives to yahoo, there are. Kopete is walking the same line with nice interface and the functionality is years ahead. Gaim, although packaged in Ubuntu can't even do the yahoo through http in case you are behind a firewall/proxy. Myself I use gyatche, but I admit the interface is somehow weird for somebody who wants to feel like using the yahoo app.

Like dpar said, opinions are just that. And the opinion that you form yourself, will probably be the best solution for you-- hence the advice of you using the apps and deciding yourself.


You seem to be contradicting yourself, when you say that you don't want to read reviews from users and then you don't even want to try the apps yourself and find out.

Now this is interesting. Would you kindly point me how do I contradict myself? If I am to lazy or too inexperienced to do a review myself that means I should read some uninformed review that would prove unuseful and not covering the important parts of the software?

siddartha
November 29th, 2007, 12:25 PM
OP used a whole lot of words to say absolutely nothing

Now this is a sincere review. I really appreciate it. You are completely missing the point, but at least you don't send me change the operating system just because I am looking for a particular web site.

siddartha
November 29th, 2007, 12:26 PM
I wouldn't describe me as "gentle", but if you don't want Linux and its attendand benifits and drawbacks, I suggest:

http://www.apple.com/macosx/

Or

http://www.microsoft.com/en/us/default.aspx

You are free to do anything you want, including:

* Use another OS
* Fix the flaws you see
* Work with what already exists because it is good enough

Please, please, please. Do explain to me the reasonment that lead to your answer.

eldepeche
November 29th, 2007, 01:29 PM
I agree with you. It is really hard to find accurate information about the functionality of applications on version 0.3b. I don't know how many times I have confused a roadmap for a feature list. Part of the problem is that developers are competing for resources. If there are 20 people writing 20 different IM apps, maybe within 18 months they have begun working in groups, and there are 10 projects. If you're lucky, the abandoned/subsumed projects explain on their websites.

Once there are a handful of major players, the issue becomes developer time. They don't have infinite amounts of it. They compete for donations, and people want to give to the team that has the best vision and the best possibility of achieving it. This necessitates competition in terms of future features.

I've found the best way is simply to try the programs that appear to be close to what I'm looking for. That allows me to figure out what the shortcomings are, which ones have a tolerable interface, etc. If I were to take this one step further, I would write up my findings and the reasoning for them (and then spam the community about them :).

I guess the upshot it, with so many programs around, it is more difficult to find good information, and it often has to be generated by the person seeking it. But, if you think other people want the same thing as you, it's easy to become a source for such information if you're willing.

quinnten83
November 29th, 2007, 01:52 PM
I agree that many programs are amateurish at best and documentation and user manuals are severely lacking in the OSS community. And I understand that as an expert user wit high demands it frustrates you that you can not get the kind of in depth review you seek.
The problem is twofold in this case
- everyone reviewing the software is drawing information from the same defective source
- requirements differ on a per user basis,so reviewers can only give their perspective.
As far as the direction GUI is headed on the programs, well might not be innovative, but people demand certain features and want things to look a certain way. So they comply. Maybe misguided, but as long as it works, no one will complain.
Most user are not that concerned about the memory drain provided it does not interfere with their regular activities.


The question you have is valid and so was your request.
But I think if you had left out the "rant" (If i might be so bold as to call it that), your point would have come across better.
I agree with you, but i thought at first that your post was an attack on the software developers for producing sub par quality software. And people here tend to be very protective of the OSS community. As am I, but i do believe we need to get our sh*t together if we actually want to be a real alternative to commercial products, or at least a better one.

siddartha
November 29th, 2007, 04:08 PM
Once there are a handful of major players, the issue becomes developer time. They don't have infinite amounts of it. They compete for donations, and people want to give to the team that has the best vision and the best possibility of achieving it. This necessitates competition in terms of future features.

Yes, the idea would be to gather the developers in bigger teams. And this aproach was described at least in theory by the old principle of separating the user interface (front end) from the engine (back end). Once you have that done you would have a million interfaces but you know the back is strong and people will start chosing just a few interfaces - which means the end for the others.

Than you have the problem of splits. Splits can be good, one example would be sodipodi vs inkscape with inkscape coming out pretty well and with a developing speed above average. But what to do with examples like, again, gaim. There was a team spliting up for the audio/video part and the deal was to link them together downstream so the IM won't have to deal with the instability problems. This project has received a lot over the time - for example each time Yahoo or Microsoft have locked the competing IM clients out there were the Trillian developers to the rescue. The Trillian developers weren't to the rescue for the YM through HTTP so there isn't such a feature for the moment. To get back to the story - time comes that gaim-vv is ready, gaim is ready but the main developer gets a job promise from google and moves the code away to serve google talk.

Where are the developers from years ago? Some years ago there were guys reverse engineering the ICQ protocol and the new protocol when they changed it. Now there isn't any skype alternative and skype is quite mature I might say.

There is also the problem of interfacing with the users. Most open source developers seem to expect to be apreciated as great. Over the time I read a lots of complaints with the big corporation user support. Now it's getting about the same thing with the OSS. Sad. And the point is that I am not attacking the open source or the freedom of choice as previously implied. I am just pointing out some of the weeds. With all those projects I write about I had a personal relationship at some point. I was sending comments and requests to the Evolution team, before they were bought up and became corporate. And the answers were something like 'other users are happy the way things are, why aren't you?'. With Gaim I sent numerous bug reports and feature requests. Some were solved. Some were closed without answer. Well, there was an answer - we are moving to a new version and probably your bug is solved in the CVS. Yes, probably was the right answer as it wasn't in the CVS and it wasn't in the final version either. The turning point was when I received a closing notice for all the bugs/requests as they were moving to a new server and changing the name, changing the logo... they were inviting me to repost all of that on the new platform. No, thank you. And so on.

This was a short list with the weeds. The list of good projects is even longer. You have teams working with the users to bring the best. One extreme case is the Scribus team. They fight every now and than with somebody who comes out and explains them why they should copy InDesign and how their interface is unintuitive because it doesn't look like Quark. In fact, this is a true OSS project. It is not a copy of another program, it is a team making their own experience in the field work for the community. And they are working to make tutorials and to document everything along the way. The idea of breaking the format compatibility lead to a split in code so the users won't be harmed although we are talking about a development trunk. There is the gpsbabel team which works with everybody to get out the corrections for the imense number of GPS exchange formats that are out there. People used to say there aren't good games on Linux. One of the teams helping change that is the Battle for Wesnoth team. They are working, they are collaborating and everything advances marvelous.

I feel like the thread could be split in two as the point was if anybody knows a site with accurate information (thank you for pointing this out). It was my mistake to put true in the subject which misguided some. This second part is about the OSS projects.

If there is a moderator reading: is there ok to have a thread about the experiences users have with the OSS developers? Maybe this would help some get down from their own piedestal and get some extra energy for the teams that work really hard to make a difference. A thread about expressing concern with the project's approach and the available alternatives.

bapoumba
November 29th, 2007, 04:37 PM
If there is a moderator reading: is there ok to have a thread about the experiences users have with the OSS developers? Maybe this would help some get down from their own piedestal and get some extra energy for the teams that work really hard to make a difference. A thread about expressing concern with the project's approach and the available alternatives.
I have been reading, and moved it to the "Cafe" as it is not a support threads suited for ABT.

Inxsible
November 29th, 2007, 04:52 PM
I did give you the contradicting quotes that you had in your diatribe.
First you say that all the reviews(at least the ones you have read) are "crap". Then you also point out that most of the answers you get are"try it out yourself" - which from the tone of your statement - felt like "I am sick of getting answers like those"

Now, if you do not want to trust the reviewer(pretty understandable) that's one thing !

But if you do not even want to try out the app, now that's being lazy. Are you saying, you want people to tell you what is good, and if it isn't what you expected - you want to blame them for it?

You used the yahoo example that the apps in linux aren't close to the interface that you are used to in Windows version of Yahoo. Of course it isn't !! Its a different app - which happens to be able to connect to the yahoo network. Have you given it a thought that you might just be too used to that particular version of program rather than it being the fault of the app? Don't expect the new app to do what yahoo does, because they are different apps. Some things are bound to be different because they have been developed by different people. Oh and in case you say that you never said anything about the interfaces being different, heres your quote :)

As for alternatives to yahoo, there are. Kopete is walking the same line with nice interface and the functionality is years ahead. Gaim, although packaged in Ubuntu can't even do the yahoo through http in case you are behind a firewall/proxy. Myself I use gyatche, but I admit the interface is somehow weird for somebody who wants to feel like using the yahoo app.Why don't you try the app and write a review about it. Help out others. Start your own website where there is "correct" information.

Also, keep in mind, that systems vary. A LOT. What works lightning fast on your machine, may not work the same way on someone else's. So there is no way in hell that you can give a guarantee that something will work always. The speed of the app is just an example. There could be a million other things in an app that may give varying results.

mmcmonster
November 29th, 2007, 05:04 PM
A good way to get honest reviews about linux applications:

Just ask on the appropriate Ubuntu forum what application is good for a particular task. You will get a few nice reviews of the various packages.

Even better, if you just pay attention to which packages get mentioned, you will know where the action is. :-)

siddartha
November 29th, 2007, 05:36 PM
I agree that many programs are amateurish at best and documentation and user manuals are severely lacking in the OSS community. And I understand that as an expert user wit high demands it frustrates you that you can not get the kind of in depth review you seek.

Being amateurish is not a problem with me. Nobody knows things by default, there is a learning process involved. Even more: there are good, stable, useful projects that started out as 'I want to learn C and I thought this is a good way'. Or 'I wanted to know more about the internals of this device so I wrote this'. It is an excellent aproach. Along the way there is the community helping if you are the one trying to make a difference. I believe that if you are trying to make the next text editor there aren't going to be a lot of people helping you. But if you try to make your mobile phone talk with your computer you are already making big steps as other people with the same model and goal would try to collaborate to get things done.

With the documentation... I have seen both sides. There are overnight hacks for which a documentation would mean ten times the coding effort. There are programs that evolve so fast even if you are making a documentation it is going to be outdated long before publishing it. And there is the sittuation where a project evolves along some developmental lines and which works the documentation along the way. Ok, you might get out the N+1 version and still bundle it with version N documentation for the moment so you won't let your users wondering for basic information. Of course, there are projects that don't fall into either category and those projects are nil unless there is a miracle going on. Just making a piece of software and not caring for the outcome, than I am quite sure the next version would be a good, finished product either.


The problem is twofold in this case
- everyone reviewing the software is drawing information from the same defective source.

Hahaha, they are not even bothering to do so nowadays. I am searching for reviews for some hardware device and I get litteraly thousands of sites trying to sell that thing or trying to get you into buying it from other site. Than there are review sites who don't even bother to get the information. They just copy/paste the first paragraph than link you to the real site... or worse, link you to another site that copied the first paragraph and which will link you (hopefully) with the real review.

Speaking of which: is there a way to blacklist or ignore sites and domains on google? That would be of help as the main offenders are usually abusing the system and have higher rankings than the others who copy the review, who, in turn, are higher ranked than the actual site.


- requirements differ on a per user basis,so reviewers can only give their perspective. .

Oh, that would be a good break from the usual type. That would be of help even in this form. Because, you see, there are barely any reviews who speak of their requirements. If you read carefully you would see parts like 'it is a nice product but the users would demand that it should clean the carpet after'. It's the users, a collective character with a personality of its own. Some sort of deity. And the poor reviewer is not worthy enough to be communicating directly with it's worship, the users. You don't see "I needed this and the application could not deliver". You see that "other projects offer this feature" and the reviewer has no use and even sometimes no idea of what that feature is good for. It's just taking the check list from other sites and parsing the list yourself for the good of the community and reaching the normal 5% standard deviation.

So even if misinformed a sincere personal perspective is also something hard to find. I remember reading a lot of reviews about the new 7.10 ubuntu. Thank God they finally understood all of them which is the sense of this particular numbering! Aside of spending two thirds of the review on the install and autodetection process (with no information whatsoever about how to avoid the problems which is a good sign he/she shouldn't have bothered to write the review in the first place) so after the install they debate if the mighty user would like the brown background or if the new icons are stilish enough. It's not about their taste, it's about the greater good of humanity as in humanity for others ;-) Sincerely I believe that two screenshots would have eliminated any reasons to write a word about the general appearance of the desktop.


Most user are not that concerned about the memory drain provided it does not interfere with their regular activities.

The poor are not concerned because they have no idea there could be otherwise. Some years ago all the bad programmers were in the Windows teams. Now, it seems that a new breed has come thanks to the numerous classes of programming (it's the cool thing, and you get to make lots of money along the way) and there are programmers that are so untrained as they could not get to that level... and they join the OSS to help the world.

Back to the user... my friends who still have Windows ME on their computers endure crashes of the whole system, they work with an old version of Microsoft Office as thir machine isn't good enough for the huge Open Office. And they live. Word crashes it's a good thing. They know it could be worse - word can corrupt its own doc files and if you don't have a backup you are set days behind. You can say they are well trained.

To work with examples and not by gossip. For torrents as it was established that torrents could be legal file sharing ;-) You have azureus. It's a huge beast, who eats a hundred MB of memory after following the site guides about reducing memory consumption. And I am sure that most of their users don't get to the point of reading how to optimise usage. They just suffer in silence. On my laptop with a four thousands RPM hard drive anything else means doom. The whole machine should wait for the mighty azureus to do its job. And there are so many users from what I have seen on the torrents. Did they choose it because they have no concern about the memory and CPU consumption? I bet they could use some extra space both with the noise/heat problems and also with the responsiveness of the other apps. But they don't know there is a uTorrent out there that works in 8M of RAM. With a 50 torrent list and downloading from two sources and seeding a third it barely reached 10M(!). And it works flawless on Wine and out of the box. In Ubuntu it even has it's own icon and menu entry by itself. Now, what happened? Java is the wrong answer is most of the OSS projects, but that's a matter of taste in the end. But from 10 to 100 there are 90M wasted for the same functionality. It's not like 2M extra, as I see that the most modest gnome applets waste 2M just to show you a pretty icon.

People just don't know things can be otherwise. Because nobody is telling them. I have Open Transport Tycoon.. it's flying and it's so small it loads almost instantly. And its a good and complex game. There are games with many layers, many libraries beneath them.. only loading a library is taking more time than opening the whole thing with the Transport Tycoon. I believe we have passed long over the make it easier to the developer. Now they are reusing huge chunks of code from various libraries and this takes more development time to lean that thing and adapt to the bugs of the unfinished code and move as the older version is no longer developed and you have to use the new one which is so much the same thing only bigger than just taking glibc and doing the thing yourself. I know it's not precisely like that but I'm making the point of how useless some libs have became.


The question you have is valid and so was your request.
But I think if you had left out the "rant" (If i might be so bold as to call it that), your point would have come across better.
I agree with you, but i thought at first that your post was an attack on the software developers for producing sub par quality software. And people here tend to be very protective of the OSS community. As am I, but i do believe we need to get our sh*t together if we actually want to be a real alternative to commercial products, or at least a better one.

It was a choice I have made. Not giving the rant would give me wrong answers. At least, I got no answer from those who can't even read a longer post. It's a win I think.

As with them being protective... I am still waiting for them to give me a reason not just saying choose something else and I am not going to tell you anything because I am so good.

Finally, we shouldn't be afraid to call a bad project bad just because it also has a few good things. To answer an advice: if on MacOS I'd go safari any time. Let's say for a moment that the firefox doesn't have its share of problems. And that it isn't their fault they were unable to make a stable browser. Stop. This is a huge drawback in 2007. In 1995 would have been just another badly planned app. But now, most of the activity is done from within the browser. Now you have even office applications online. So the browser is pretty much the equivalent of the kernel. And if the Linux kernel would have had the stability of this browser... probably linux would have end up in the museum of operating systems. And even ignoring this problems... I recall the developers talking about the light browser, about the small pack and tiny memory footprint. Now they are putting a spellchecker in! Wow. Most languages don't even have a decent spelling dictionary but they moved that in! And they are talking about ease of use and interface and still don't integrate the native toolkits so on all systems it looks like in Windows and the theme support is... actually is there such thing? They have their own themes like WinAmp ten years ago. But WinAmp was a innovator, they were among the first to promovate the idea of skins. I look at Open Office and although it is criticised for it's appearance I remember it's purpose was looking consistant on all systems. Firefox has what purpose, to make all systems look like Windows from a distance?

wlc3069
November 29th, 2007, 05:45 PM
if you took the time to review and post a blog about it i would read it, you're a great writer and have valid points

siddartha
November 29th, 2007, 05:46 PM
I have been reading, and moved it to the "Cafe" as it is not a support threads suited for ABT.

Thanks. This is what it happens when you don't make your homeworks. I wasn't aware there is a cafe section. I have a couple of other off-topic threads which I posted over the Absolute Beginner thinking there is no better option.

Now, to get back to the original question is a thread about openly criticising the OSS projects OK?

bapoumba
November 29th, 2007, 05:53 PM
Thanks. This is what it happens when you don't make your homeworks. I wasn't aware there is a cafe section. I have a couple of other off-topic threads which I posted over the Absolute Beginner thinking there is no better option.

Now, to get back to the original question is a thread about openly criticising the OSS projects OK?



It was a choice I have made. Not giving the rant would give me wrong answers. At least, I got no answer from those who can't even read a longer post. It's a win I think.

I all depends on how you want to make your point. A ranting flamebait will not be okay. You'll see it fast.

Constructive criticism is always welcome.

quinnten83
November 29th, 2007, 06:06 PM
Post it anyway.
To heck with it if it has been done already.
This merits discussion.
The only way to succeed is to take a critical look at ourselves and improve in the areas that need improving and perfect the areas we are good at.

what I want is a place where i can find good information on small office networking with OSS without all the commercial clutter.
i still haven't been able to find an answer to my question if you can make home directories mount from a network server on login (effectively mimicking the roaming profile on windows AD computers).

Linuxland is vast. it is too easy to get lost.
EDIT:
oh yeah, to answer your question,no I don't really know where you can find a site with that what you want.

rune0077
November 29th, 2007, 06:17 PM
Try www.softpedia.com if you haven't already. They have plenty of reviews and all the software reviewed and offered on the site is free to download (or at least free to try), so there's not much commercial interest involved in it.

popch
November 29th, 2007, 06:22 PM
i still haven't been able to find an answer to my question if you can make home directories mount from a network server on login (effectively mimicking the roaming profile on windows AD computers).

Off topic and wrong subforum, but where's the problem? Some of the oldest unix books I read many years ago took it for granted that you set up your systems that way.

Even when I do not know how to do it, I know that NFS (or even SMB) are the protocols to be used. I presume that you mount the user's home directory in a script which runs when the user logs in. It's just conceivable that the data describing a user account includes the home directories to be mounted. Ask in the proper subforum, and I think you will find someone who actually knows how to do it.

siddartha
November 29th, 2007, 07:49 PM
I did give you the contradicting quotes that you had in your diatribe.
First you say that all the reviews(at least the ones you have read) are "crap". Then you also point out that most of the answers you get are"try it out yourself" - which from the tone of your statement - felt like "I am sick of getting answers like those"

Yes, so, if I don't want to test it without further information where do I get this info? From an hypotetical place where there is actual information.


Now, if you do not want to trust the reviewer(pretty understandable) that's one thing !

I would love to trust the reviewer, but the reviewer keeps inseting information 'heard of' and 'checked'.


But if you do not even want to try out the app, now that's being lazy. Are you saying, you want people to tell you what is good, and if it isn't what you expected - you want to blame them for it?

I am lazy. In a way it is a lot easier for me if I stumble upon a .deb than for a Windows user who after uninstall has to hunt down the left overs and every now and than has to reinstall the system just to make sure there are no more libraries that get loaded without need, remaining configurations, etc. Anyway, this is why I am asking the help of the community - I install an app, I check it out, I pass the information so not everybody would have to install 10 packs and check each one.


You used the yahoo example that the apps in linux aren't close to the interface that you are used to in Windows version of Yahoo. Of course it isn't !! Its a different app - which happens to be able to connect to the yahoo network. Have you given it a thought that you might just be too used to that particular version of program rather than it being the fault of the app? Don't expect the new app to do what yahoo does, because they are different apps. Some things are bound to be different because they have been developed by different people. Oh and in case you say that you never said anything about the interfaces being different, heres your quote :)

The main issue with the original yahoo pack is that I am not sure it even works after the last changes in system. Than, it doesn't have anything than the most basic functions and it looks like it was some sort of presentation software - here, it can be done. I care less about the interface.

Now, I though I expressed myself wrongly, but that thing with the interface is about the fact that gyache is different and that I hope nobody would complain to me after installing gyache and noticing it is so much different. So maybe you haven't read all I wrote in that quote.

And about doing the same thing as the official client does (which I am not used with) I would like to have an OSS app that does 10 times more things so I could boast about how much better OSS is. Yet, in this particular case, beyond having multiple accounts at once there isn't much to do as this is the protocol.


Why don't you try the app and write a review about it. Help out others. Start your own website where there is "correct" information.

For one very simple reason: I want to work with that community instead of making another project like that. Hence, the thread.


Also, keep in mind, that systems vary. A LOT. What works lightning fast on your machine, may not work the same way on someone else's. So there is no way in hell that you can give a guarantee that something will work always. The speed of the app is just an example. There could be a million other things in an app that may give varying results.

Hehehe, another textbook quote. I see uTorrent working in 8M of RAM and almost no CPU usage when in background. I see Open Transport Tycoon making wonders with about the same memory footprint. Unless you are talking about the state of the art 3D graphics or some sort of complicated math/phisics calculations (like SETI) there is no reason of testing on the latest and most powerful, yet most sites specialised in testing and reviewing are going for the top of the line. So tell them your argument.

What I tink is silly is for you to add this argument when in my oppinion Azureus on Java vs uTorrent over Wine has the same results using a K6-2 or a Hammer with 128M or 4G of RAM. Or firefox with memory leaking addins. I am talking about raports. I am not saying "my Doom 14 runs well on my system so I'm wondering why are you complaining". I say that a slow app on my system is going to be slower on an older system and a waste of dissipated heat on a newer system while a fast application on my system has a good chance of running faster than the previous on your system too.

siddartha
November 29th, 2007, 07:51 PM
A good way to get honest reviews about linux applications:

Just ask on the appropriate Ubuntu forum what application is good for a particular task. You will get a few nice reviews of the various packages.

Even better, if you just pay attention to which packages get mentioned, you will know where the action is. :-)

An excellent point. It works in most cases. But there are times when the apps that come with the distro win even if there are better alternatives. Nevertheless a good starting point.

siddartha
November 29th, 2007, 07:54 PM
if you took the time to review and post a blog about it i would read it, you're a great writer and have valid points

I am still hoping that in all this Webspace there is at least one site like that. I would like to endorse it as much as I can and avoid the split. To have a place like this is very important, now as the good old sites are bought one by one (unrelated but I am now thinking of dpreview and imdb) and even Linux is influenced more and more by the big corporations. There is nothing bad in having corporate sponsorship, at least in the beginning. Later on they do impose their own point of view as they are out there to make a profit not to help the community.

siddartha
November 29th, 2007, 07:57 PM
I all depends on how you want to make your point. A ranting flamebait will not be okay. You'll see it fast.

Constructive criticism is always welcome.

It should be personal, about the private needs and not about the degree of coolness and clearly without the epithets that I abused in this thread. And if there is no positive answer in the end, I would probably double it with a blog.

Inxsible
November 29th, 2007, 10:46 PM
Yes, so, if I don't want to test it without further information where do I get this info? From an hypotetical place where there is actual information.

I am lazy. In a way it is a lot easier for me if I stumble upon a .deb than for a Windows user who after uninstall has to hunt down the left overs and every now and than has to reinstall the system just to make sure there are no more libraries that get loaded without need, remaining configurations, etc. Anyway, this is why I am asking the help of the community - I install an app, I check it out, I pass the information so not everybody would have to install 10 packs and check each one.


For one very simple reason: I want to work with that community instead of making another project like that. Hence, the thread.


I am still hoping that in all this Webspace there is at least one site like that. I would like to endorse it as much as I can and avoid the split.
Lets just say there is not a single website which provides the information that you want/are looking for. Will you then start your own website with the said information?

You talk about "hunting down the left overs", but you don't seem to realize that Linux is NOT Windows. Things are going to be different. That's why its a different OS altogether. (Yes, thats a "typical" quote again -- but what else do you want me to say? whichever way you look at it, Linux is NOT Windows and its not going to be either-- so I had to use the typical quote) :roll:

Seems like you are all talk, no effort !

But then again, you agreed that you were lazy, so I guess it's moot.

23meg
November 29th, 2007, 11:52 PM
You may be interested in Debian Package of the Day (http://debaday.debian.net/). linux.com (http://linux.com) and Ars Technica's Open Ended (http://arstechnica.com/journals/linux.ars) also do to-the-point application reviews.

quinnten83
November 30th, 2007, 09:42 AM
Off topic and wrong subforum, but where's the problem? Some of the oldest unix books I read many years ago took it for granted that you set up your systems that way.

Even when I do not know how to do it, I know that NFS (or even SMB) are the protocols to be used. I presume that you mount the user's home directory in a script which runs when the user logs in. It's just conceivable that the data describing a user account includes the home directories to be mounted. Ask in the proper subforum, and I think you will find someone who actually knows how to do it.


i did that, but nobody directed me to an answer or something that might indicate an answer :(.
And i tried googleing, just couldn't find anything i could use.
I am quite new to this, so perhaps I didn't know the proper terminology.
if you have any ideas, I welcome them like i welcome food after a week of fasting!:lolflag:

quinnten83
November 30th, 2007, 09:55 AM
Lets just say there is not a single website which provides the information that you want/are looking for. Will you then start your own website with the said information?

You talk about "hunting down the left overs", but you don't seem to realize that Linux is NOT Windows. Things are going to be different. That's why its a different OS altogether. (Yes, thats a "typical" quote again -- but what else do you want me to say? whichever way you look at it, Linux is NOT Windows and its not going to be either-- so I had to use the typical quote) :roll:

Seems like you are all talk, no effort !

But then again, you agreed that you were lazy, so I guess it's moot.

I want to do more in the linux comm.
I am not a coder, but a power user at best.
So perhaps bloggin about programs would be kool.
been thinking of that as a project anyway, but maybe something with video.
of course there are countless blogsof programs that do this, but it could be fun.
If anybody would be so kind as to inform me where I can get the necesarry vodeo programs, that would be nice.

23meg
November 30th, 2007, 01:11 PM
I want to do more in the linux comm.
I am not a coder, but a power user at best.
So perhaps bloggin about programs would be kool.
been thinking of that as a project anyway, but maybe something with video.
of course there are countless blogsof programs that do this, but it could be fun.

Some places you can contribute to:

Debian Package of the Day (http://debaday.debian.net/)
Ubuntu Screencasts (http://screencasts.ubuntu.com/)


If anybody would be so kind as to inform me where I can get the necesarry vodeo programs, that would be nice.

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam/RecordingScreencasts

vincentvee
December 3rd, 2007, 01:46 AM
reviews are generally based on real world experience, which means that what worked for someone might not necessarily work for your configuration, as much as it would be good if stuff just worked and and i totally agree with a lot of what you have said, but on the whole, i find that i can generally find a solution to most things i need to get done
in regard to firefox....try a different browser, i never had a great deal of time for it myself, i use swiftfox now, though am unsure what differences there are between the two, i get better results from swiftfox, although i never really had any trouble with firefox either
which makes me wonder if this is a troll thread?

regomodo
December 3rd, 2007, 02:27 AM
jeebus! O thought this is a forum. Not an essay.

to answer your question - anything that comes up at digg. There is nothing opinionated there and always true

siddartha
December 7th, 2007, 06:00 PM
Try www.softpedia.com if you haven't already. They have plenty of reviews and all the software reviewed and offered on the site is free to download (or at least free to try), so there's not much commercial interest involved in it.

Yes, this seems like a good option from the first examination.

siddartha
December 7th, 2007, 06:01 PM
You may be interested in Debian Package of the Day (http://debaday.debian.net/). linux.com (http://linux.com) and Ars Technica's Open Ended (http://arstechnica.com/journals/linux.ars) also do to-the-point application reviews.

Good options as well. Thank you.

siddartha
December 7th, 2007, 06:28 PM
reviews are generally based on real world experience, which means that what worked for someone might not necessarily work for your configuration, as much as it would be good if stuff just worked and and i totally agree with a lot of what you have said, but on the whole, i find that i can generally find a solution to most things i need to get done
in regard to firefox....try a different browser, i never had a great deal of time for it myself, i use swiftfox now, though am unsure what differences there are between the two, i get better results from swiftfox, although i never really had any trouble with firefox either
which makes me wonder if this is a troll thread?

Hmm, if you use it with no addons whatsoever it might just work. Put the flash and you are bound to have crashes, even from things like using firefox just for your tube a couple of days without restart. I guess the darn thing should/could be restarted from time to time and here it solves the memory problems and some of the crashes. Also, there are things like the photouploader for zooomr which does crash it any time and also some banners, luckily nothing on the main sites of the world. It is still better than the new IE 7 but I'm not so sure for how long as IE usually getts stronger with the passing of the time and FireFox seems to get bloated and more 'feature-full'.

Myself I am waiting for epiphany to change from geko and see the difference.
Anyway, wonder no more, this is not a troll thread.

vincentvee
December 8th, 2007, 03:13 AM
what version of ubuntu are you running?
i am using 7.04 and don't get any crashes at all even on youtube, have all the multimedia plugins installed, also several others like the WML browser, web developer toolbar, download statusbar....and some others, no problems, but then all i use youtube for is finding videos and then downloading them with youtube-dl, if you have the video download plugins installed into firefox there are problems with crashes but only when you try to start a download, hence i use youtube-dl
anyway....hope you get it sorted anyway


Hmm, if you use it with no addons whatsoever it might just work. Put the flash and you are bound to have crashes, even from things like using firefox just for your tube a couple of days without restart. I guess the darn thing should/could be restarted from time to time and here it solves the memory problems and some of the crashes. Also, there are things like the photouploader for zooomr which does crash it any time and also some banners, luckily nothing on the main sites of the world. It is still better than the new IE 7 but I'm not so sure for how long as IE usually getts stronger with the passing of the time and FireFox seems to get bloated and more 'feature-full'.

Myself I am waiting for epiphany to change from geko and see the difference.
Anyway, wonder no more, this is not a troll thread.

siddartha
December 9th, 2007, 12:28 AM
what version of ubuntu are you running?
i am using 7.04 and don't get any crashes at all even on youtube, have all the multimedia plugins installed, also several others like the WML browser, web developer toolbar, download statusbar....and some others, no problems, but then all i use youtube for is finding videos and then downloading them with youtube-dl, if you have the video download plugins installed into firefox there are problems with crashes but only when you try to start a download, hence i use youtube-dl
anyway....hope you get it sorted anyway

I don't donwload anything. But letting the browser over two days on with flash intensive sites like youtube leads to a certain crash no matter what you navigate.

igknighted
December 9th, 2007, 12:44 AM
I don't donwload anything. But letting the browser over two days on with flash intensive sites like youtube leads to a certain crash no matter what you navigate.

Thats hardly an Ubuntu bug... firefox has trouble on any platform if you leave it running too long. I might try another browser, or try downloading the newest flash player from the adobe site (a new version just came out).

siddartha
December 9th, 2007, 01:54 PM
Thats hardly an Ubuntu bug... firefox has trouble on any platform if you leave it running too long. I might try another browser, or try downloading the newest flash player from the adobe site (a new version just came out).

Huh?

daynah
December 9th, 2007, 02:16 PM
Siddartha, take a clue from your name.

There is no truth in opinions.

"Wise is the man with few preferences."

And please, try not to just post things like "huh". It takes up bandwidth just for a sound that does not indicate what you're confused about.

argie
December 9th, 2007, 02:47 PM
I don't donwload anything. But letting the browser over two days on with flash intensive sites like youtube leads to a certain crash no matter what you navigate.

Interesting. Try the same thing without the flash plugin (yeah, I know its pointless but it'll help find the problem). If it still happens, use some other browser. Konqueror is good, and a lot of people swear by Opera. If it doesn't happen, it's the flash plugin that's causing the trouble.

siddartha
December 10th, 2007, 01:27 PM
Interesting. Try the same thing without the flash plugin (yeah, I know its pointless but it'll help find the problem). If it still happens, use some other browser. Konqueror is good, and a lot of people swear by Opera. If it doesn't happen, it's the flash plugin that's causing the trouble.

The Flash plugin is one of the trouble-makers. The bad part is the browser development effort wasn't directed towards standard compliance (Acid test promised only with version 3) and even less towards stability (as long as you allow extensions made by a third party, don't let them crash your app, let them crash by themselves).

siddartha
December 10th, 2007, 01:29 PM
Siddartha, take a clue from your name.

There is no truth in opinions.

"Wise is the man with few preferences."

And please, try not to just post things like "huh". It takes up bandwidth just for a sound that does not indicate what you're confused about.

Nope, you just made me waste bandwidth with this reply. If you bothered to read the thread you would know the answer to your both dilemas.

handy
December 10th, 2007, 01:45 PM
I smell a troll.