GNOME Foundation Publishes Statement On OOXML Involvement

[23meg]

The GNOME Foundation (http://foundation.gnome.org/) has published its awaited statement in response to allegations that it has been supporting the endorsement of Microsoft's OOXML as an ECMA standard.

http://www.gnome.org/press/releases/ecma-tc45-statement.html


Recently, a number of articles have raised concern in various communities about the GNOME Foundation's membership of ECMA and participation in TC45-M — the technical committee reviewing Microsoft Office Open XML, or "OOXML".

In this statement we describe our participation in ECMA TC45-M, and provide a summary of our position on ODF, OOXML and related issues.

Background

Jody Goldberg is the lead maintainer of Gnumeric, a GNOME-based spreadsheet application, a position he has held for seven years.

Before June 2007, he worked for Novell, representing them on TC45-M in order to obtain further documentation of OOXML during its review process. In June, Jody left Novell and proposed that the GNOME Foundation facilitate his work with TC45-M by joining ECMA as a non-profit.

We accepted Jody's proposal to make sure that OOXML was documented enough such that FLOSS implementations were possible without a huge amount of pain (as experienced by those working on DOC and XLS binary format support). The decision to participate in TC45-M was made by the Board as a direct result of Jody's request. It did not involve any third party influence or financial considerations at any point.

Jody's last interaction with TC45-M was in July, to deal with the latest set of issues he submitted regarding charting and pivot tables. While he is not participating in the current activities of TC45-M (which is focused on issue resolution for the ISO standardisation process), our membership continues so he can participate in the next review period.

During his participation in TC45-M (via Novell and the GNOME Foundation), Jody has raised hundreds of issues with the documentation of the format, which will demonstrate a significant, material, on-going benefit to FLOSS implementations of OOXML and as a result, to users of FLOSS products that require such interoperability.

In 2000, the GNOME community de-emphasised its own office software products, choosing to support the nascent OpenOffice.org project. As a result, there are no office products released on our six-month time-based release schedule today, although we encourage and support projects such as AbiWord, Glom and Gnumeric.

Position


GNOME's principal mission is to deliver Software Freedom to users around the world. The GNOME Foundation aims to support the world-wide developer and contributor base of the GNOME project towards this goal.
The GNOME Foundation is a member of the ODF Alliance, and along with our contributors in the GNOME community, we are passionate supporters of open standards in general. We believe that ODF delivers the best opportunity for industry and government to collaborate on an open document standard, to drive unprecedented innovation, productivity and public transparency.
The GNOME Foundation's support for Jody's participation in TC45-M does not indicate endorsement for, or contribution to, ISO standardisation of the Microsoft Office Open XML formats.
While Microsoft should be applauded for releasing information about the Office document formats, their manoeuvres around the standards process demonstrate that they are not pursuing standardisation as a platform for innovation for the entire industry. Indeed, Microsoft continues to behave in the abusive manner of an unreformed, convicted monopolist with no passion for true industry collaboration in the interests of users.
We are deeply concerned that abuse of the standards process is eroding public trust in the value and independence of international standards. Both ODF and OOXML are very heavily influenced by their implementation heritage, neither are likely to deliver the "one true office format", and both communities have — in their own way — played a role in this erosion of trust.
We in the Open Source and Free Software community should be cautious about taking a black and white approach to a process that is rapidly turning standards into industrial weapons to the detriment of our users, software and communities. We face the very real danger that standards will suffer the same fate as patents: created to spur innovation and sharing, but manipulated to control and restrain.


Get Involved

The GNOME Foundation is supporting the pursuit of Software Freedom through the innovative, accessible, and beautiful user experience created by GNOME contributors around the world. It's a fun and inviting community, so if you're reading this and wondering what you can do to help promote Software Freedom, contributing to GNOME is a great way to start!

Media Enquiries


GNOME Foundation Press Officer
Jeff Waugh (Sydney, Australia)
Email: gnome-press-contact@gnome.org
Phone: +61 2 9318 0284
Mobile: +61 423 989 818

[Stephen Howard]

From the article:
Both ODF and OOXML are very heavily influenced by their implementation heritage, neither are likely to deliver the "one true office format", and both communities have — in their own way — played a role in this erosion of trust.

How can it be said that ODF has 'played a role in this erosion of trust [in the standards process]'?? Unlike OOXML, ODF is 100% transparent, it doesn't have any dark little undefined rooms to which only one company (MS) has the keys.

[Dimitriid]

Its just getting worst, they should have kept their mouths closed about it.

[samjh]

Let's see if I have this right:

1. Jody Goldberg represents Gnome Foundation in TC45-M.

2. Because of point 1, the FLOSS community accuses Gnome of helping OOXML become an ISO and ECMA standard.

3. The FLOSS community prefers that Gnome Foundation shun OOXML altogether and support ODF absolutely.

Assuming that I've correctly identified those three issues, here are some observations:

1. ODF is already an ISO standard.

2. ODF is not widely used.

3. OOXML is not an ISO or ECMA standard.

4. OOXML is developed by Microsoft and will be used in its MS Office suite.

5. MS Office suite is the de facto industry standard for office application software.

6. Due to points 4 and 5, it is likely that OOXML will become an informal but de facto industry standard format for office documents.

7. Goldberg's representation of the Gnome Foundation appears to encourage TC45-M to uncover as much information about OOXML's technical details as possible.

8. By doing point 7, it should become much easier for FLOSS developers to write file format converters for the OOXML format, therefore enhancing the interoperability of FLOSS office applications with MS Office.

What's the big deal? It looks like the Gnome Foundation is doing the smart thing by standardising a document format that will probably become an informal, de facto, industry standard anyway. Yes, support ODF, but if FLOSS office applications are going to be effective in taking a significant portion of MS Office's market share, then interoperability will be a key issue. How better to assure best chances of interoperability than to expose OOXML using ISO and/or ECMA standards?

As I've posted before, an ISO/ECMA standard is just something on a bit of paper. It has no real value until the industry and consumers support and use it. With MS Office's market share, ODF is unlikely to make a big dint in the world of office document formats even though it is an ISO/ECMA standard. OOXML will make a huge dint, whether or not it attains ISO/ECMA standardisation.

[Dimitriid]

8. By doing point 7, it should become much easier for FLOSS developers to write file format converters for the OOXML format, therefore enhancing the interoperability of FLOSS office applications with MS Office.

No. By doing that, the only thing that it does its perpetuate Microsoft as the "defacto industry standard" by playing catch up instead of supporting alternative standards and denouncing Microsoft.

Battles against Microsoft's monopoly practices are being fought but by conceding it only sets back other victories like Microsoft getting banned from preinstalling the OS on all machines on Europe.Active resistance whenever possible is the ONLY way to fight Microsoft, otherwise it compromises which is exactly what Microsoft wants to cut deals, enrapture and trap people then sue.

[popch]

Battles against Microsoft's monopoly practices are being fought but by conceding it only sets back other victories like Microsoft getting banned from preinstalling the OS on all machines on Europe.Active resistance whenever possible is the ONLY way to fight Microsoft, otherwise it compromises which is exactly what Microsoft wants to cut deals, enrapture and trap people then sue.


That depends a bit on the kind of damage you want to minimize. The lock-in of documents into Microsoft's proprietary formats is by far the most disturbing effect of their de facto monopoly. A set of reasonably documented (and reasonably useful) formats for office documents would greatly reduce that damage. It would also - as others have pointed out - break one of the most relevant instruments used for acquiring that monopoly.

[sloggerkhan]

http://www.itwire.com/content/view/15738/1090/1/0/

has another article on this. Apparently KDE has rejected OOXML, while GNOME is being wish-washy even as MS renegs on their original promises regarding the format.

[Vadi]

... what do GNOME and KDE have to do with OOXML? They're just getting themselves in sticky ground.

[sloggerkhan]

Because their desktop environments include word processors, it's a huge deal whether they feel compelled to spend development manpower implementing the format. And if a really poorly documented and overly complex format with proprietary pieces gets accepted as a standard, there may be an expectation that an implementation is included in the DE.

[toupeiro]

... what do GNOME and KDE have to do with OOXML? They're just getting themselves in sticky ground.

Considering they both has significant investments in other office suites, quite a bit.

[Mateo]

It will be included in both OpenOffice and GnomeOffice no matter whether it gets ISO or EMCA approval. It will probably be included in KOffice as well. It will be default in NONE of these, however. This is all a bunch of posturing that means absolutely nothing.

[Vadi]

Yeah, they'll have to include it, like it or no. Just include it and be quiet though.

[TeraDyne]

I don't understand why anyone should even care about what they do. Personally, I'm tired of the "blind-faith" approach that most FOSS evangelists take, and I applaud the GNOME foundation for having the guts to stand up and try to improve OOXML documentation, even though it isn't a completely open standard.

Personally, I support ODF and the use OpenOffice, and I probably always will, but with the work that GNOME Foundation's team, I know that there is a better chance of getting support for OOXML. With that support, good document converters will eventually be released. I will be able to easily collaborate with someone who has chosen to use Microsoft Office instead of OpenOffice.

Beside, if OOo can support a MSOffice format, more people might turn to it as a free alternative instead of buying\pirating the expensive MSO. If we can get those people to try OOo, they may decide to switch to ODF as well, and get others to try it, and so on.

Yeah, wishful thinking, I know.

Edit: Yeah, I forgot a word. Whoops. >_>;

[Xbehave]

No. By doing that, the only thing that it does its perpetuate Microsoft as the "defacto industry standard" by playing catch up instead of supporting alternative standards and denouncing Microsoft.

Battles against Microsoft's monopoly practices are being fought but by conceding it only sets back other victories like Microsoft getting banned from preinstalling the OS on all machines on Europe.Active resistance whenever possible is the ONLY way to fight Microsoft, otherwise it compromises which is exactly what Microsoft wants to cut deals, enrapture and trap people then sue.

How does it benifit users to not be able to read a file format?
WHY dont we all just shut up and do a linus instead of a rms.

These guys write code, if they can get their program to read a format thats good![FULL STOP, NEXT THREAD]

[bash]

I don't understand why anyone should even care about what they do. Personally, I'm tired of the "blind-faith" approach that most FOSS evangelists take, and I applaud the GNOME foundation for having the guts to stand up and try to improve OOXML documentation, even though it isn't a completely open standard.

Personally, I support ODF and the use OpenOffice, and I probably always will, but with the work that GNOME Foundation's team, I know that there is a better chance of getting support for OOXML. With that support, good document converters will eventually be released. I will be able to easily collaborate with someone who has chosen to use Microsoft Office instead of OpenOffice.

Beside, if OOo can support a MSOffice format, more people might turn to it as a free alternative instead of buying\pirating the expensive MSO. If we can get those people to try OOo, they may decide to switch to ODF as well, and get others to try it, and so on.

Yeah, wishful thinking, I know.

Edit: Yeah, I forgot a word. Whoops. >_>;

Thank you. The first post in this thread I can really agree with. People need to seriously start to differenciate and drop this "Anything that somehow has MS on it, is the evil". I mean it seems as even intelligent and clever people just shut off their brain when they hear the word MS. MS has done and still does a lot of bad things. But not everything is the evil. And if the GNOME Foundation is trying to improve the MS launched format OOXML then I find that a lot better than just sitting around and complaining about how evil MS is.

[Mateo]

Thank you. The first post in this thread I can really agree with. People need to seriously start to differenciate and drop this "Anything that somehow has MS on it, is the evil". I mean it seems as even intelligent and clever people just shut off their brain when they hear the word MS. MS has done and still does a lot of bad things. But not everything is the evil. And if the GNOME Foundation is trying to improve the MS launched format OOXML then I find that a lot better than just sitting around and complaining about how evil MS is.

More importantly, this is not 1999. Microsoft stock trades for a little less than $35. Many companies you've never heard of trade for more. Microsoft's simply not that relevant any more. The fact that people still put on their tin-foil hats when the topic of Microsoft comes up shows that they haven't been paying attention the last few years.

[Sp4cedOut]

More importantly, this is not 1999. Microsoft stock trades for a little less than $35. Many companies you've never heard of trade for more. Microsoft's simply not that relevant any more. The fact that people still put on their tin-foil hats when the topic of Microsoft comes up shows that they haven't been paying attention the last few years.

I think the company that controls 95% of the home user market and a significant percent of the server, video game, and mobile market is pretty relevant.

The price a stock trades for is not a good indication of its actual worth or the power of the company.

[Eruaran]

It will be included in both OpenOffice and GnomeOffice no matter whether it gets ISO or EMCA approval. It will probably be included in KOffice as well. It will be default in NONE of these, however. This is all a bunch of posturing that means absolutely nothing.

Sorry but as far as KDE & KOffice are concerned, that is incorrect:

"We're taking part in the OASIS because we truly believe in Open Standards. KOffice standardises on OpenDocument. Free Software and open standards are a perfect match and the way to move forward for a society to ensure vendor-independent access to its data. We're actively participating in the OASIS since it matches our value, and we believe that one strong standard is in the best interest of our users." - David Faure (KDE Developer and Official Representative who works on KDE/KOffice).

"If OfficeOpen XML becomes an ISO standard, we will, in all likely hood, still not spend time on supporting it. The standard is enormous, very complex and to a large extent so badly specified that a full implementation is probably even harder than implementing the old Microsoft binary file formats. Add to that patent encumbrances and problems with copyrighted elements -- and our conclusion is that we prefer to concentrate on making KOffice a great set of applications that are satisfying to use and satisfying to develop." - Boudewijn Rempt (developer of Krita, core KOffice contributor and KOffice release manager).

I believe David Faure and Boudewijn Rempt are setting an excellent example. Please, please, please, don't allow Microsoft to poison the well. Support truly open standards which will benefit us all.

[Eruaran]

"Microsoft continues to behave in the abusive manner of an unreformed, convicted monopolist with no passion for true industry collaboration in the interests of users."

I'm glad somebody representing the GNOME Foundation noticed.

"and both communities have — in their own way — played a role in this erosion of trust."

In the case of ODF I would disagree and suggest this is sounding like FUD. And I think the characterization of OOXML as one of the "communities" is misleading. OOXML is Microsoft's attempt at poisoning the well. It is not about openness, it is about that "unreformed, convicted monopolist" doing everything it can, no matter how unethical, to perpetuate its monopoly.

"We... should be cautious about taking a black and white approach to a process that is rapidly turning standards into industrial weapons to the detriment of our users, software and communities. We face the very real danger that standards will suffer the same fate as patents: created to spur innovation and sharing, but manipulated to control and restrain."

Microsoft turned "standards into industrial weapons" to the great detriment of users a long time ago. Was the intention of ODF to "spur innovation and sharing" or was it to "control and restrain" ? A "very real danger" ? Who is the danger ? Who is it that would "control and restrain" the market as much as possible to its own advantage ?

This sounds like muddying the waters to me. I find the ambiguous suggestions in these statements more of a concern than anything that "unreformed, convicted monopolist" might do.

It sounds naive at very best.

[PartisanEntity]

Come on people. Many of you seem to be fabricating witches and problems where there aren't any.

You want to lambaste Gnome for trying to find out as much as possible about Micosoft's proposed open document standard? You want open source developers to spend a huge amount of time reverse engineering later instead?

Running around just denouncing Microsoft, as some of you seem to demand, is childish and unrealistic. It's a game of give and take. Look how far we have come without sinking to the lowly standards of the likes of Microsoft.

[Eruaran]

Come on people. Many of you seem to be fabricating witches and problems where there aren't any.

You want to lambaste Gnome for trying to find out as much as possible about Micosoft's proposed open document standard? You want open source developers to spend a huge amount of time reverse engineering later instead?

Running around just denouncing Microsoft, as some of you seem to demand, is childish and unrealistic. It's a game of give and take. Look how far we have come without sinking to the lowly standards of the likes of Microsoft.

I'm sorry but "Microsoft's proposed open document standard" ? We already have an ISO open document standard. If Microsoft's proposed "standard", Office Open XML, is so open, then developers of free software wont have to spend a "huge amount of time reverse engineering later", will they...

[23meg]

Sorry but as far as KDE & KOffice are concerned, that is incorrect:

"We're taking part in the OASIS because we truly believe in Open Standards. KOffice standardises on OpenDocument. Free Software and open standards are a perfect match and the way to move forward for a society to ensure vendor-independent access to its data. We're actively participating in the OASIS since it matches our value, and we believe that one strong standard is in the best interest of our users." - David Faure (KDE Developer and Official Representative who works on KDE/KOffice).

"If OfficeOpen XML becomes an ISO standard, we will, in all likely hood, still not spend time on supporting it. The standard is enormous, very complex and to a large extent so badly specified that a full implementation is probably even harder than implementing the old Microsoft binary file formats. Add to that patent encumbrances and problems with copyrighted elements -- and our conclusion is that we prefer to concentrate on making KOffice a great set of applications that are satisfying to use and satisfying to develop." - Boudewijn Rempt (developer of Krita, core KOffice contributor and KOffice release manager).

I believe David Faure and Boudewijn Rempt are setting an excellent example. Please, please, please, don't allow Microsoft to poison the well. Support truly open standards which will benefit us all.

Contrasting evidence:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=3983161&postcount=41