Kde4 Rc 1!

[Incense]

RC1, we're getting close!

http://www.kde.org/announcements/announce-4.0-rc1.php


November 20, 2007 (The INTERNET).

The KDE Community is happy to announce the immediate availability of the first release candidate for KDE 4.0. This release candidate marks that the majority of the components of KDE 4.0 are now approaching release quality.

While the final bits of Plasma, the brand new desktop shell and panel in KDE 4, are falling into place, the KDE community decided to publish a first release candidate for the KDE 4.0 Desktop. Release Candidate 1 is the first preview of KDE 4.0 which is suitable for general use and discovering the improvements that have taken place all over the KDE codebase.

At the same time, the KDE team releases the final version of the KDE Development Platform, which provides the needed libraries and applications the KDE Desktop is based on. The KDE Development Platform, comprising the basis for developing KDE applications, is frozen and is now of release quality. The sourcecode for the KDE Development Platform can be found in the "stable/" subdir on KDE's FTP server and mirrors.

Building on this, the majority of applications included in KDE 4.0 are now usable for day to day use. The KDE Release Team has recently underlined this by calling on the community to participate in reporting bugs during the time remaining before the release of KDE 4.0 in December.
Meanwhile, preparations for the KDE 4.0 release events are taking place, with the main event taking place in Mountain View, California in the USA in January 2008. Make sure you don't miss it!

The new Beta 4 incorporates many improvements from previous Beta and alpha releases: Beta 4, Beta 3, Beta 2, Beta 1, Alpha 2 and Alpha 1.

Anyone try it yet?

Live CD HERE (http://home.kde.org/~binner/kde-four-live/)

[miggols99]

Ooo any screenshots? So does this mean KDE4 is getting more stable? I'm hoping plasma is getting finished, like being able to change the wallpaper etc.

[TheMono]

http://kubuntu.org/announcements/kde4-rc1.php

Go on, you know you want to...

[p_quarles]

Yeah, this is pretty exciting. The OpenSuSE live CD (the beta) looked pretty good, but I'm guessing the real wow factor won't arrive until plasma is finished. I'm looking forward to it.

EDIT: @TheMono: Why, indeed I do want to. ;) Thanks for the link.

[FuturePilot]

http://kubuntu.org/announcements/kde4-rc1.php

Go on, you know you want to...

I'm very tempted :p

[TheMono]

Probably should have waited to post the link after my download finished lol.

Edit: Oh, and to reassure people about running it as a full session - it won't screw up your preferences. That's what the line "export KDEHOME=~/.kde4" does - makes sure that KDE4 doesn't screw with your KDE3 settings.

[pluviosity]

Hmmmmm, download KDE 4, or do physics problem set......so tempting.

[-grubby]

cant resist...downloading now. Only one CD left too

[Incense]

I'm posting this from the openSUSE Live cd. It's really pretty nice! Very usable! The new koffice looks great, the widgets are kind of fun, and the look is fantastic. I can't wait for it to go gold next month! So far only one crash when I was playing with the widgets. Not too bad at all. Good job KDE devs!

[Incense]

Here are some screens. KDE4 Games, Widgets, Amarok 2, the new menu, and the opening desktop. I'm going to admit, it's hard booting back in to KDE3 now.

[-grubby]

Here are some screens. KDE4 Games, Widgets, Amarok 2, the new menu, and the opening desktop. I'm going to admit, it's hard booting back in to KDE3 now.

that is beautiful! I'm compelled to try my live-CD I burned earlier about...NOW

[p_quarles]

Here are some screens. KDE4 Games, Widgets, Amarok 2, the new menu, and the opening desktop. I'm going to admit, it's hard booting back in to KDE3 now.
Great screenshots. I've downloaded the Ubuntu files, and will play with them after I've bork-proofed my data.

Can't wait to play around with the theming.

[sunexplodes]

God, when are they going to replace that horrible taskbar? I am I really the only person who is NOT impressed with all this Plasma stuff?

[-grubby]

God, when are they going to replace that horrible taskbar? I am I really the only person who is NOT impressed with all this Plasma stuff?

when I ran the CD I tried to change the taskbar but I couldn't

[yatt]

Not all the pieces have made it into Debian Experimental, but when it does I am sure to give it a spin. The last Beta was impressive, if you could ignore the countless bugs. I hope the first RC takes care of many of the bigger ones.

[p_quarles]

when I ran the CD I tried to change the taskbar but I couldn't
Really? Well, let's hope that's specific to the live CD. I am not a fan of the 48 pixel task bar, and am already looking for an excuse to move to Openbox.

[71CH]

is KDE hard to use
i'm just starting to feel comfortable with GNOME...

[Incense]

is KDE hard to use
i'm just starting to feel comfortable with GNOME...

No it's really not. You get a menu in the lower left just like windows, with subcategory's for all your apps just like gnome. You can try out the stable version of KDE by running Kubuntu or KDE core on your ubuntu system.

[-grubby]

No it's really not. You get a menu in the lower left just like windows, with subcategory's for all your apps just like gnome. You can try out the stable version of KDE by running Kubuntu or KDE core on your ubuntu system.

nothing to do with what I quoted but, I liked your old avatar better

[Incense]

when I ran the CD I tried to change the taskbar but I couldn't

I tried that too and no dice. I'm sure it's a live disc thing. Also there was no kcontol, only the system settings (or whatever that's called). I really hope we see both (or at least a way to install kcontrol) in final.

[Incense]

nothing to do with what I quoted but, I liked your old avatar better

LOL, so did I. The new one was freaking me out a bit!

[cookies]

Here are some screens. KDE4 Games, Widgets, Amarok 2, the new menu, and the opening desktop. I'm going to admit, it's hard booting back in to KDE3 now.

That looks like Beta 4, RC 1 looks like this:

[Incense]

That looks like Beta 4, RC 1 looks like this:

I've been tricked! The page said it was RC1, but checking the about KDE page, you are correct, it is Beta 4, LOL, still impressed though! Are you running that on Kubuntu, or something else?

[cookies]

I've been tricked! The page said it was RC1, but checking the about KDE page, you are correct, it is Beta 4, LOL, still impressed though! Are you running that on Kubuntu, or something else?

:p

They must need to update their downloads then.

That's not my screenshot, I found it here:
http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/3106

[GeneralZod]

If you want up-to-the minute (well, day) installs running in a hassle-free Qemu VM (no need to worry about packaging, configuration, trampling over your existing install/ config, etc) then my project needs testers, urgently!

http://etotheipiplusone.com/kde4daily/docs/kde4daily.html

I'm hoping to have my first-ever Dot article written on it sometime soon, but this really depends on how busy the Promo team are.

Edit:

Some misc facts:

- Plasma and Oxygen are by far the least developed parts of KDE4 at the moment, and much of Plasma's UI is (or was, until very recently) "Programmer Art". Considering how quickly Plasma has improved in both looks and functionality over just the last few days, though, I'd say there probably isn't much cause for concern over the long term.
- At the moment, Plasma (including the taskbar and panels) has very little configurability using the UI - unsurprising, since it is a total re-write of the whole desktop portion of KDE. Expect it to be more configurable with later releases.
- KControl has not been ported to KDE4. There are rumours of someone being hired to do the port, but this is based off of some random Dot comment a while back and may be entirely false. I'd like to see one, personally.
- Aaron Seigo has a screencast on Plasma prepared, and it's pretty interesting - it should be released along with the next Commit Digest, so keep your eyes peeled if you're interested!

[hotweiss]

After entering this:


Xephyr:1 & export DISPLAY=:1; xterm

I get this:


[1] 5772
bash: Xephyr:1: command not found
xterm Xt error: Can't open display: :1
[1]+ Exit 127 Xephyr:1

Any ideas?

And when I enter this:


sudo apt-get install kdm-kde4

I get this:


Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
kdm-kde4 is already the newest version.
The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required:
libbtctl4 libgnokii3 libcamel1.2-10 libnotify1 tremulous-data libdvbpsi4
libxosd2 libvlc0 vlc-nox libebook1.2-9 libedataserver1.2-9 libgnomebt0
libtar libebml0 libxerces27 libmatroska0 libsdl-image1.2
Use 'apt-get autoremove' to remove them.
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
1 not fully installed or removed.
Need to get 0B of archives.
After unpacking, 0B of additional disk space will be used.
Setting up kdm-kde4 (4:3.96.0-1ubuntu2~gutsy2~ppa1) ...
dpkg: error processing kdm-kde4 (--configure):
subprocess post-installation script returned error exit status 1
Errors were encountered while processing:
kdm-kde4
E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)

[hotweiss]

OK I've solved the kdm-kde4 error by removing it and installing it. When I do install it, do I select kdm or kdm-kde4? If I select kdm, it installs. If I select kdm-kde4 I get those errors.

[awakatanka]

That looks like Beta 4, RC 1 looks like this:

Hmm kubuntu's rc version doesn't look like that. Well trying a livecd then. Even the "new" blue bar is in the middle of my screen now. Can't move it can't change it. Bad kubuntu version this.

[sunexplodes]

- Plasma and Oxygen are by far the least developed parts of KDE4 at the moment, and much of Plasma's UI is (or was, until very recently) "Programmer Art". Considering how quickly Plasma has improved in both looks and functionality over just the last few days, though, I'd say there probably isn't much cause for concern over the long term.
- At the moment, Plasma (including the taskbar and panels) has very little configurability using the UI - unsurprising, since it is a total re-write of the whole desktop portion of KDE. Expect it to be more configurable with later releases.
- KControl has not been ported to KDE4. There are rumours of someone being hired to do the port, but this is based off of some random Dot comment a while back and may be entirely false. I'd like to see one, personally.

So, out of curiosity, hopefully somebody can clear this up for me..

How does a product get to RC1, which stands for RELEASE CANDIDATE, when something as big as the entire Desktop UI is so underdeveloped? RC releases exist to (correct me if I'm wrong) weed out last-minute bugs and problems before a major release. Features should be implemented LONG before something like this.

I'm as excited as the next guy, but KDE4 looks like one huge mess to me.

[GeneralZod]

So, out of curiosity, hopefully somebody can clear this up for me..

How does a product get to RC1, which stands for RELEASE CANDIDATE, when something as big as the entire Desktop UI is so underdeveloped?

Depends what you mean by "big", really - in terms of code size and the amount of effort put into it, Plasma is a very small portion of KDE. But I suspect you mean in terms of end-user importance, in which case yes, you are right: people have been saying for ages that the betas were more like alphas, and now the RCs are more like betas, and I wholeheartedly agree - this really shouldn't be labelled as a Release Candidate at all.



I'm as excited as the next guy, but KDE4 looks like one huge mess to me.

I wouldn't write off the entirety of KDE4 based on the ricketiness of its .0 release :) In fact, I'm hard-pressed to think of any project whose .0 releases didn't contain substantial amounts of suckage and missing features.

[sunexplodes]

I mostly meant a mess in terms of orginization and planning. And I already covered that by ranting and raving about the whole "release candidate" thing.

I've used Alpha, Beta, and Release Candidate versions of all kinds of software, from browsers to DEs to entire operating systems, and honestly, KDE4 RC1 feels like an early Alpha at best. Crashy as hell, lacking very seriously in UI, unstable or either nonexistant configuration options, etc.

Of course I'll give it a spin when it's done, but the fact that a project as delayed as KDE4 has been is STILL this incomplete in RC really disappoints.

[samwyse]

I haven't tried RC1 yet, but if it still has UI issues I guess there has to be at least a RC2.

I did try OpenSuse's Beta 4 Live CD:

http://xs321.xs.to/xs321/07473/kde4beta4dolphin.png.xs.jpg (http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs321&d=07473&f=kde4beta4dolphin.png)

Besides having a tree view (unlike Gutsy's D3lphin), I also liked the way the Places icons scale depending on how much space you give them and the ability to have details under the icons.

[easyfragger]

When I try to install kdm-kde4 (as suggested on the kubuntu website), apt wants to remove desktop-base, gdm-themes, and gnome in return :(
What to do if I want to keep gnome, too?

[Naatan]

Tried it, to be honest, its very unfriendly and I'm experiencing quite some lag in the animation department.

Also the fact that you can't use right click on the menubar is really annoying.

step back imo, if this is what KDE4 is going to be, I'm sticking to KDE3.5

[wieman01]

Tried it, to be honest, its very unfriendly and I'm experiencing quite some lag in the animation department.

Also the fact that you can't use right click on the menubar is really annoying.

step back imo, if this is what KDE4 is going to be, I'm sticking to KDE3.5
It's still in BETA... kind of. But it will improve significantly in the coming months, that's for sure. I won't switch before release 4.1, I am with you.

I tested it and it still lacks some basic features. Plus it is not very intuitive at the moment, the start menu (apologize the term) is a nightmare. But as I have said, it will become much better in future. I love its looks.

[Rul]

Tried it, to be honest, its very unfriendly and I'm experiencing quite some lag in the animation department.

Also the fact that you can't use right click on the menubar is really annoying.

step back imo, if this is what KDE4 is going to be, I'm sticking to KDE3.5

Which is the reason why you are not going to see KDE4 as the default desktop in Kubuntu until at least the 8.10 version.

If you look at the developers blogs you will see that they know that KDE 4.0 is far from being complete, and a lot of things are in the stage of "well, at least now it works". Plasma for example is far from being stable and is going to continue changing its API during the KDE 4.0, only to become stable after 4.1.

The reason they are releasing this, is because they want to make an statement: the libraries are ready, KDE is on its way out, basic foundations are there, start working on KDE 4 apps now!

If you wait until all apps and everything is ready, and you have people waiting for KDE 4 to be released to start porting apps, then you can enter in and endless cycle and the process would stale.

[JetskiDude911]

This is pretty cool. I can't wait to see the final version. I'm really impressed so far.

[miggols99]

I just tried the openSUSE live cd and it looked exactly like the beta4. The only thing I found that was different was the taskbar was moved. Where is a proper live cd? Isn't Debian doing one?

[p_quarles]

Hmm. Just came across an answer to an earlier question. Apparently, the new panel is actually a plasmoid, rather than a separate application like kicker.

So, that answers two questions, actually: It doesn't work because Plasma's not ready, and yes, it will be changeable, and to a much greater extent than Kicker.

Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_%28KDE%29) [en.wikipedia]

[mips]

I can't wait to see the final version.

Is there such a thing as a final version ? 4.0 4.1 4.2 4.3..... you get the picture.

[Incense]

I just tried the openSUSE live cd and it looked exactly like the beta4. The only thing I found that was different was the taskbar was moved. Where is a proper live cd? Isn't Debian doing one?

Debian does have one as well, it's beta4 still. The openSUSE cd should be the right one. You can try the download again, they have a torrent link now, so maybe they are linking the right file.

Debian

http://pkg-kde.alioth.debian.org/kde4livecd.html

SUSE

http://home.kde.org/~binner/kde-four-live/

[wieman01]

Is there such a thing as a final version ? 4.0 4.1 4.2 4.3..... you get the picture.
True indeed. But it won't be ready for mass market for long time either. At least from what I can see now.

[Polygon]

holy bejebus, that taskbar is HUGE and UGLY looking.......is that seriously what is going to be standard? its hideous! It looks like it takes up a good inch of the screen!

[wieman01]

holy bejebus, that taskbar is HUGE and UGLY looking.......is that seriously what is going to be standard? its hideous! It looks like it takes up a good inch of the screen!
But you can make it a bit smaller, can't you? KDE3's default taskbar is just a big...

[mech7]

hmm they have made beautifull mockups into a horrible end result :(

[Naatan]

Which is the reason why you are not going to see KDE4 as the default desktop in Kubuntu until at least the 8.10 version.

If you look at the developers blogs you will see that they know that KDE 4.0 is far from being complete, and a lot of things are in the stage of "well, at least now it works". Plasma for example is far from being stable and is going to continue changing its API during the KDE 4.0, only to become stable after 4.1.

The reason they are releasing this, is because they want to make an statement: the libraries are ready, KDE is on its way out, basic foundations are there, start working on KDE 4 apps now!

If you wait until all apps and everything is ready, and you have people waiting for KDE 4 to be released to start porting apps, then you can enter in and endless cycle and the process would stale.

that makes sence, I hope they work everything out. I'm a bit disappointed though, as (up till when I tried RC1) I was looking forward to using the new KDE.

[Andrewie]

http://vizzzion.org/?blogentry=742

those are much better screenshots. I don't find the bar big (the kubuntu bar is bigger then normal) but I've been using kde for so long I don't really notice.

[happysmileman]

But you can make it a bit smaller, can't you? KDE3's default taskbar is just a big...

I really hope so, and I hope it's as customisable as well, I love my two panels, one on top and one on bottom (yes I stole the idea from GNOME, that's what FOSS is about :P) with transparency on both

[Incense]

http://vizzzion.org/?blogentry=742

those are much better screenshots. I don't find the bar big (the kubuntu bar is bigger then normal) but I've been using kde for so long I don't really notice.

Thanks for that link. Those shots do look very nice. Does KDE4 really support the scale and expose compiz features, with out the need for compiz? I know it was have a certain level of compositing, but I didn't know those would be built into kwin.

FTA


KWin has new compositing features. The handy expose effect can be accessed by putting the mouse cursor in the upper left corner. The just click on the window you want to select.

[p_quarles]

I really hope so, and I hope it's as customisable as well, I love my two panels, one on top and one on bottom (yes I stole the idea from GNOME, that's what FOSS is about :P) with transparency on both
As I mentioned before, the panel will actually be a plasmoid. From what I can gather, plasmoids are essentially Karamba widgets, only more built into the desktop and less script-based. I expect that you'll be able to do just about anything with it, if you're willing to tweak.

[joao82]

hmmm I have a noob question.
when the final release for KDE4 is out, will it be available for download from Gutsy repositories?
it's just that I have Ubuntu 6.06 and Kubuntu 7.10 and for example on 6.06 it only lets me update openoffice until version 2.0.2, which is really old. Are all releases of software in a specific ubuntu locked to the same version? I noticed the same with amsn, etc. Why?

[GeneralZod]

Does KDE4 really support the scale and expose compiz features, with out the need for compiz? I know it was have a certain level of compositing, but I didn't know those would be built into kwin.
FTA

Yes, but many people have reported performance issues (but many others have reported silky-smoothness). I imagine there will be a few rounds of testing and fixing before it's usable for everybody who can use Compiz.

Here's a rather dated (5 months old) youtube video. This is using pure kwin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WBLlc6xCQ4

[bongobonga]

I just downloaded the kubuntu version of kde4 (3.96.00 KDE Beta4), from the like that is earlier in this thread, and to be honest I was horrified by just how bad it is. I spent about 1 hour playing about with it, and I would describe it as an Alpha version at best! It is no where near release quality. There are many features which just don't work and others that are very poorly integrated/refined - nothing like there is in KDE3

Here are some things which I found about it.
I set up a dedicated new user for testing kde4. On the same machine I have KDE3 and it works wonderful.


- Audio not working at all in kde4. It works perfectly with all other users on the machine that use kde3/gnome

- Many of the applications just won't start from the 'applications' menu.

- Hot pluggable devices are not automatically displayed. In kde3 a new icon appeared in the desktop, or a dialog opened asking what I wanted to do with is. Nothing like this happens in kde4.

- Dolphin: Not able to start playing dvds etc, no option to play media. One has to manually open kaffine and then play dvd etc.

- No mouse right clicking menus, or at the least very limited menus, is very non-standard and difficult to get used to.

- KDE button menu on toolbar just looks a mess. It is in no way polished or easy to use.

- Toolbars: The features adding/moving/configuring of toolbars appear to have been removed, or at least I wasn't able to discover how to do it after trying for some time. I eventually gave up searching. Searching in kcontrol, didn't give any options related to the toolbar. It these features exist, then they are very badly located and demonstrate how user unfriendly this version of kde has become.
- I was tot able to add a quick start button/icon for applications on toolbar/desktop. There is a grayed out option when right clicking in the applications section of the kde menu, but under no conditions does it become enabled. This is a serious bug at the least.

- Widgets are nice at times, but I like to be able to always see certain widgets, such as pager on the toolbar. Having this as a widget which can be covered by other applications is just not good enough.
- I have a moderately powerful graphics card but the X/widget/window effects look awful. Very poor resolution and rough motion, nothing like the smooth effects that one sees in something like OS-X or even KDE3 using the same machine.

- Is dolphin or Konqueror meant to be the default file manager? Sometimes I get Dolphin and sometimes Konqueror when opening directories/files. This just displays how poorly refined the release is. One of them should be set as the default.

- Removing widgets at times leaves a black square on the desktop about 40 picels square. These can't be removed even by logging out and logging back in. They superimpose any other windows. After an hour of using KDE4 I got five of them on my screen and can't get rid of them. This is a release critical bug.



I really hope that this is just a very bad build that was uploaded and the version from the official kde tree is much better. As it is here, it is now where near as good as kde3 or even beta quality.

[Incense]

Yes, but many people have reported performance issues (but many others have reported silky-smoothness). I imagine there will be a few rounds of testing and fixing before it's usable for everybody who can use Compiz.

Here's a rather dated (5 months old) youtube video. This is using pure kwin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WBLlc6xCQ4

Wow, that is impressive. Somehow I missed all that. KDE devs really have their hands full with this release. I think it may be time for another donation. Thanks for the link.

[Incense]

hmmm I have a noob question.
when the final release for KDE4 is out, will it be available for download from Gutsy repositories?
it's just that I have Ubuntu 6.06 and Kubuntu 7.10 and for example on 6.06 it only lets me update openoffice until version 2.0.2, which is really old. Are all releases of software in a specific ubuntu locked to the same version? I noticed the same with amsn, etc. Why?

The beta's and the RC are already in the kubuntu gutsy backports. You can read about it on the website.

http://kubuntu.org/announcements/kde4-rc1.php

the word is it will not be default in Kubuntu though until at least 8.10.the packages in dapper are frozen from june of 2006 (with a few backports, so you won't find too many updated packages for dapper these days. Only bug fixes.

[Incense]

[/Rant]

I really hope that this is just a very bad build that was uploaded and the version from the official kde tree is much better. As it is here, it is now where near as good as kde3 or even beta quality.

I feel ya. I think we're going to see a really good stable 4.1 once all the big bugs are pounded out, and the distros have a chance to really integrate it with their KDE offerings. Also, KDE3 has had a long time to get to the point it is at now. 3.0 rolled out April of 2002.

[Andrewie]

Thanks for that link. Those shots do look very nice. Does KDE4 really support the scale and expose compiz features, with out the need for compiz? I know it was have a certain level of compositing, but I didn't know those would be built into kwin.

FTA

yep kwin has no need for compiz and I believe has no need for xgl or axgl?(can't remember what Red Hat called theirs)

[clintonthegeek]

Ugh.... I'm getting dependancy errors trying to install RC1.. mainly:


E: /var/cache/apt/archives/kde-icons-oxygen_4%3a3.96.0-1ubuntu1~ppa1_all.deb: trying to overwrite `/usr/lib/kde4/share/icons/oxygen/scalable/emblems/emblem-mounted.svgz', which is also in package kde4base-data
E: /var/cache/apt/archives/kdebase-runtime-data_4%3a3.96.0-1ubuntu1~ppa1_all.deb: trying to overwrite `/usr/lib/kde4/share/dbus-1/interfaces/org.kde.KTimeZoned.xml', which is also in package kde4base-data
E: /var/cache/apt/archives/libkonq5_4%3a3.96.0-1ubuntu1~ppa1_i386.deb: trying to overwrite `/usr/lib/kde4/share/dbus-1/interfaces/org.kde.libkonq.KonqHistoryManager.xml', which is also in package kde4base-data

I had Beta 4 installed before, and did uninstall it as mentioned in the Kubuntu release announcement (http://kubuntu.org/announcements/kde4-rc1.php). Any ideas?

[Andrewie]

Ugh.... I'm getting dependancy errors trying to install RC1.. mainly:



I had Beta 4 installed before, and did uninstall it as mentioned in the Kubuntu release announcement (http://kubuntu.org/announcements/kde4-rc1.php). Any ideas?

I think there may still be packages left, or someone made a mistake with the packages, I guess you could let it overwrite the files but I'm not sure.

[clintonthegeek]

Yeah, I got it thanks!

I just uninstalled everything that started with kde4 that I could find, and started from scratch... just a lot of screwing around, that's all.

Now to see what all the fuss is about!

[x0as]

I've just finished building kde4, so I've only had a quick play. I'm not normally a fan of kde but so far I'm impressed with kde4.

edit: added a couple of screen shots

[bartos]

I started out using Kde with Mepis 6 because I was used to it looking like *******. Never used Gnome until Feisty because it looked to plain.
Never really thought about KDE crash handler going off all the time until Ubuntu and gnome. WOW what a difference. My wife won't try linux because I use gnome and she doesn't like the unfamiliar and my setup which is easy for me.
Hopefully KDE4 is more stable and I can entice her to work on my machine with it. Then lure her to the light and install Kubuntu on her machine.
Then all will be right in the world. Ok my world.:lolflag:

[lcampagn]

Don't install this expecting to test anything or try out new features, pretty much the entire GUI doesn't work yet. The new backend features might be working, but it's tricky to tell because there is not much of a control panel either.. :(

Don't bother installing, it'll just disappoint you. Maybe come back in 6 months.

[Incense]

I've just finished building kde4, so I've only had a quick play. I'm not normally a fan of kde but so far I'm impressed with kde4.

edit: added a couple of screen shots

Thanks for the screens! It's looking great! Since you are not normally a KDE fan, I'm just wondering what impressed you about KDE4?

[x0as]

Feels faster, feels & looks a lot more polished that the last time I used kde. I really like the new K menu which I assume is new in kde4?


I tried that too and no dice. I'm sure it's a live disc thing. Also there was no kcontol, only the system settings (or whatever that's called). I really hope we see both (or at least a way to install kcontrol) in final.

I built it from svn & I've got no kcontrol either.

edit: looks like systemsettings could be replacing kcontrol, anybody got a newer link?

http://liquidat.wordpress.com/2007/07/04/kde-4-kubuntu-systemsettings-vs-kcontrol/

[sunexplodes]

I'm really hoping the Plasma desktop is optional. I don't like the new panel, and I HATE kickoff. Give me my kmenu and panel ANY DAY.

[LuisAugusto]

Oh, come on, those Kubuntu crappy packages are killing KDE 4.0 reputation...


I'm really hoping the Plasma desktop is optional. I don't like the new panel, and I HATE kickoff. Give me my kmenu and panel ANY DAY.

This is what you get, when someone doesn't have any idea about what he is talking about.

The new panel is 100% theme able trough svg's.
Well, you're free to hate kick-off, but usability tests show that it's better than the old kmenu, and even more important, they're 2 more menus work in progress, called Raptor and Lacenlot.

As everything desktop/taskbar/widget related is a plasmoid, you're free to make any kind of panel easily, and replace the default one, someone could just decide to make dock, it would be trivial.

Since panel, as the desktop, is a Containment Plasmoid, you can drag any non-containment plasmoids to it (clocks, menus, information widgets, etc, etc, etc) and they'll resize and adjust to their new home.

Plasma makes any other desktop or dashboard/widget implementation looks like big crap. It's still work in progress, yes, but even in it's current condition it's quite good, it just need to get to the "Ok, let's make it know easily configurable for users" (there aren't dialogs for change the background, the position of the taskbars, etc, but the features are already there).

PS: Oh, yes, here's a recently released plasma screencast, enjoy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGYGzTDHhPg

[sunexplodes]

For someone who claims I don't know what I'm talking about, you sure do ignore the point I've made.

I don't like what I've seen of Plasma. I understand how it works. I don't like the stock panel, and I'm aware that you can add new or different ones. I don't think anything is wrong with the CURRENT panel, so I'd like to keep it, and therefore hope it's a simple task to toggle back to the more traditional KDE 3.5 system.

And usability tests or not, Kickoff seems a lot clunkier than a well edited KMenu.

I will look into Lancelot though. Raptor didn't appeal much the last time I checked on its progress.

[sunexplodes]

Okay, Lancelot's nice and all, but it suffers from being WAY too big. I'm a big fan of everything I could want being contained in a small, sleek menu/submenu system. Which is my problem with Raptor. It LOOKS great, but it'll just slow me down and make me less efficient. Are we trying to be more like windows here?

[wieman01]

And usability tests or not, Kickoff seems a lot clunkier than a well edited KMenu.
I must agree, that's what puts me off as well. :-( Hope there will be a way to customize it.

[igknighted]

For someone who claims I don't know what I'm talking about, you sure do ignore the point I've made.

I don't like what I've seen of Plasma. I understand how it works. I don't like the stock panel, and I'm aware that you can add new or different ones. I don't think anything is wrong with the CURRENT panel, so I'd like to keep it, and therefore hope it's a simple task to toggle back to the more traditional KDE 3.5 system.

And usability tests or not, Kickoff seems a lot clunkier than a well edited KMenu.

I will look into Lancelot though. Raptor didn't appeal much the last time I checked on its progress.

1) the old panels may have worked for you, but why take away from the choice of others? With the old panels, you always had to have at least one. Personally, I would rather non have any. Now I can do that.

2) I suspect you will adapt. Change is annoying at times, but usually worth it. Also, if it really doesn't catch on, someone will port the current kmenu.

3) If you don't like the panels and menu's in kde4, why use it? KDE3 will always be there.

[sunexplodes]

1) the old panels may have worked for you, but why take away from the choice of others? With the old panels, you always had to have at least one. Personally, I would rather non have any. Now I can do that.

2) I suspect you will adapt. Change is annoying at times, but usually worth it. Also, if it really doesn't catch on, someone will port the current kmenu.

3) If you don't like the panels and menu's in kde4, why use it? KDE3 will always be there.

Seems contradictory to me.

1) I never suggested to take away the choice from others. If you go back and read what I said, I expressed that I hope I HAVE the choice between the two, rather than being forced to use the new UI if I don't like it.

2) I'd hope somebody ports it. I'd hate to leave KDE, but man, I am SO not impressed with what I've seen so far.

3) Yep. It'll always be there. But I'd like to be able to take advantage of some of the new features, and more importantly, the new programs, which will likely have a KDE4 dependency.

I really don't see why you're taking my comments as if they're attacks. I think some good work's being done with KDE4, but the general UI is not pleasing to me in its current state, and in a few areas, I think it's taking a step or two backward. It's not like I'm picking on YOU or something. Nor am I stating that these advances shouldn't be made, I'm just saying that the option should be there for people who like the old way better. The reason I use KDE over GNOME is because I like CHOICE. I like to be able to customize and use my desktop environment in such a way as to please me visually AND help me get my work done efficiently.

My ideal would be the "You CAN use Plasma if you want to, but you don't HAVE TO." That's all I'm saying here.

[supertones]

I used to like qt because it was kde now i like kde because it's qt. In all honesty kde alone does not compare with compiz fusion gnome menu bar and awn with kde programs

[Polygon]

i tried the live cd but my computer wont boot it...it boots ubuntu cds fine but not this one...and i know the iso is correct as i downloaded it via torrent so it checks out.....

[happysmileman]

- Audio not working at all in kde4. It works perfectly with all other users on the machine that use kde3/gnome

Works for me on LiveCD, Kubuntu packages are generally accepted to be bad, and are you sure the new user is a member of the 'audio' group?


- Many of the applications just won't start from the 'applications' menu.
Yeha I found that KDE3 support isn't that good on Kubuntu, now I just use LiveCDs and all those programs open fine, but they're all KDE4 programs.


- Hot pluggable devices are not automatically displayed. In kde3 a new icon appeared in the desktop, or a dialog opened asking what I wanted to do with is. Nothing like this happens in kde4.
It's in a plasmoid on LiveCD, but Kubuntu packag didn't have much plasmoids last time I checked, possibly missing?


- KDE button menu on toolbar just looks a mess. It is in no way polished or easy to use.
I much prefer it to the current one, overall, but I think when you exit menu and re-enter it, it should be back at start and not in the subcategory you were in, hopefully that will be an option by 4.0.


- Toolbars: The features adding/moving/configuring of toolbars appear to have been removed, or at least I wasn't able to discover how to do it after trying for some time. I eventually gave up searching. Searching in kcontrol, didn't give any options related to the toolbar. It these features exist, then they are very badly located and demonstrate how user unfriendly this version of kde has become.
Not only could I move toolbars, I was also able to detach them fine as well and have them as separate windows.
Unless you are talking about the panel at the bottom, in which case I agree and hope it'll be fixed soon, but if you see screenshots of the new panel (the one that wasn't included in RC1 for some reason) it looks like a whole new panel, I think the curernt one was just temporary until new one was fixed or something.


- Widgets are nice at times, but I like to be able to always see certain widgets, such as pager on the toolbar. Having this as a widget which can be covered by other applications is just not good enough.
I assume you're talking about panel not toolbar, in which case the new panel should be able to contain those widgets.


- Is dolphin or Konqueror meant to be the default file manager? Sometimes I get Dolphin and sometimes Konqueror when opening directories/files. This just displays how poorly refined the release is. One of them should be set as the default.
Dolphin should be default, but I'm assuming it should be fixed by 4.0, since I can't imagine it being that hard to change.


- Removing widgets at times leaves a black square on the desktop about 40 picels square. These can't be removed even by logging out and logging back in. They superimpose any other windows. After an hour of using KDE4 I got five of them on my screen and can't get rid of them. This is a release critical bug.
Didn't happen to me, but if it's common then yes it should be considered a critical bug.


I really hope that this is just a very bad build that was uploaded and the version from the official kde tree is much better. As it is here, it is now where near as good as kde3 or even beta quality.

Well the Kubuntu packages are notoriously bad, and a lot of your problem didn't happen to me, but yes I hope it gets more stable by the time it's released, it's now in RC and everything actually functions (that I've tried) so hopefully they should be able to focus on just fixing bugs until then.

(I left out a couple of your points if I had no response to them because I didn't test what you asked, I'm back on KDE3 for today)

[happysmileman]

I used to like qt because it was kde now i like kde because it's qt. In all honesty kde alone does not compare with compiz fusion gnome menu bar and awn with kde programs

Compiz-fusion and AWN run on KDE as well, comparing a plain DE to a DE with Compiz-fusion and AWN is just asking to be flamed.

[LuisAugusto]

For someone who claims I don't know what I'm talking about, you sure do ignore the point I've made.

I don't like what I've seen of Plasma. I understand how it works. I don't like the stock panel, and I'm aware that you can add new or different ones. I don't think anything is wrong with the CURRENT panel, so I'd like to keep it, and therefore hope it's a simple task to toggle back to the more traditional KDE 3.5 system.

So, are you aware that the new plasma panel can make everything the old one can? Making it like kicker it's just a matter adding a plain svg image as theme XD

And the "traditional" KDE 3.5 (as far as this discussion goes) it's just a wallpaper, a crappy panel (yes, kicker sucks, and most people agree on this) and nothing more, it's not actually something hard to reproduce...


And usability tests or not, Kickoff seems a lot clunkier than a well edited KMenu.

I will look into Lancelot though. Raptor didn't appeal much the last time I checked on its progress.

Well, that's a matter of taste.

I guess some "old school" hackers surely will port KMENU, even if it's a implementation more than 10 years old.

[LuisAugusto]

Compiz-fusion and AWN run on KDE as well, comparing a plain DE to a DE with Compiz-fusion and AWN is just asking to be flamed.

I believe that his point was that those are gnome-centric, and awn it¡s gtk application, it's made for gnome, it runs on KDE, which is different.

I love KDE, I really do, it's just that since they start hacking hard for KDE 4 they somehow abandoned KDE 3.5.x. While Gnome still got features, at this right moment, I believe GNOME 2.20 it's better than KDE 3.5.x in many (most?) aspects. Of course, KDE it still have Amarok , K3b and Konqueror, which are it's advantages from my point of view.

See you.

[Incense]

I believe that his point was that those are gnome-centric, and awn it¡s gtk application, it's made for gnome, it runs on KDE, which is different.

I love KDE, I really do, it's just that since they start hacking hard for KDE 4 they somehow abandoned KDE 3.5.x. While Gnome still got features, at this right moment, I believe GNOME 2.20 it's better than KDE 3.5.x in many (most?) aspects. Of course, KDE it still have Amarok , K3b and Konqueror, which are it's advantages from my point of view.

See you.

Yeah we have not seen a lot of new features since 3.5, but that was just a year and a half ago, and the work they are putting into KDE4 seems like it's going to make it all worth it. Looking at Gnome 2.20, (IMO) there really isn't anything that I feel we're missing in KDE. I do like the theme intergration with the desktop settings, and the mail notifcation is nice... but, I don't know, I guess I'm too much a KDE guy to really care. :) The applications really do make KDE great. I have not looked back since I started using kontact, amarok, quanta, and koffice just to name a few. They are all getting reved for KDE4, and that excites me more then anything. I guess we'll see what happens next month when the code goes gold.

[sunexplodes]

So, are you aware that the new plasma panel can make everything the old one can? Making it like kicker it's just a matter adding a plain svg image as theme XD

And the "traditional" KDE 3.5 (as far as this discussion goes) it's just a wallpaper, a crappy panel (yes, kicker sucks, and most people agree on this) and nothing more, it's not actually something hard to reproduce...

How about explaining WHY Kicker sucks (and everybody agrees on it)? Because from where I stand, it's quick, highly customizable, and does everything I could want it to. And as for making a Plasmoid LOOK like Kicker, sure. An SVG can do that. Whatever. BUT you're overlooking functionality. The "Configure Panel" dialog is very powerful and does a lot. It allows me to very finely tune the appearance and BEHAVIOR of my panel. Which is important to me. Every argument I've heard about plasma has been all Style, no Substance.


Well, that's a matter of taste.

I guess some "old school" hackers surely will port KMENU, even if it's a implementation more than 10 years old.

Just because it's old, doesn't mean it's bad. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[DeadSuperHero]

Gee, I love flamewars and arguements and all, but this is getting a bit ridiculous.

Anyway, can't wait to take a gander at the finished KDE4. I tried KDE3 a couple weeks ago, and I found it's actually very nice once you get used to customizing everything. I can't wait to screw around with plasmoids.

In any case, we can all agree...better than Aero or Aqua. That's for sure.

[LuisAugusto]

How about explaining WHY Kicker sucks (and everybody agrees on it)? Because from where I stand, it's quick, highly customizable, and does everything I could want it to. And as for making a Plasmoid LOOK like Kicker, sure. An SVG can do that. Whatever. BUT you're overlooking functionality. The "Configure Panel" dialog is very powerful and does a lot. It allows me to very finely tune the appearance and BEHAVIOR of my panel. Which is important to me. Every argument I've heard about plasma has been all Style, no Substance.

1.- You can't get rid of it
2.- It's ugly
3.- Transparency support is pitiful
4.- For example, if you put a .png/svg background image in gnome-panel and it has some sort of transparency, it will respect it, kicker doesn't.
5.- Did you really believe that it's customizable????! Are you serious?

And, well I wasn't talking about making a new plasmoid that looks like kicker, I was talking about just a svg background for the current plasma panel.

What you ask for, are dialogs, not features, Plasma Panel can make anything kicker can and a lot lot more, it's just it still doesn't have dialogs for changing settings.




Just because it's old, doesn't mean it's bad. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I didn't say it is bad, I said that it's 10 years old.


Yeah we have not seen a lot of new features since 3.5, but that was just a year and a half ago, and the work they are putting into KDE4 seems like it's going to make it all worth it.

Completely agree, I wasn't bashing KDE, I was just pointing out what happen, in order to give us the new KDE 4 they sacrifice work in KDE 3.5.x, which is 100% understandable.


Looking at Gnome 2.20, (IMO) there really isn't anything that I feel we're missing in KDE.

Dialogs compatible whit composite, a very clean and polished interface, and a lot of 3rd party applications, like screenlets, avant-window-navigator, etc.


I do like the theme intergration with the desktop settings, and the mail notifcation is nice... but, I don't know, I guess I'm too much a KDE guy to really care. :)

I'm actually definitively a KDE fan, but for introduce people into Linux world, and for productive machines I use GNOME.


The applications really do make KDE great.

I agree


I have not looked back since I started using kontact, amarok, quanta, and koffice just to name a few. They are all getting reved for KDE4, and that excites me more then anything. I guess we'll see what happens next month when the code goes gold.

I like all of those, but in their KDE 3.5.x state they aren't any better than their counterparts, their at the same level, KDE 3.5.x applications doesn't make GNOME apps looks like a toy anymore. What I still love about KDE applications is that they are more integrated.


And, as a side note, after you really use KDE 4.0, it's quite hard to go back to KDE 3.5.x, Impressive applications like amarok 1.4.7 looks so old at the side of 2.0, and that one is just and example, overall, all the desktop experience is the same.

KDE 4.0 will possibly be lacking some stuff, as kprint, klipper, kppp, among other. But what will be there, is already better than their KDE 3.5.x counterparts.

[therobbot]

1.- You can't get rid of it
2.- It's ugly
3.- Transparency support is pitiful
4.- For example, if you put a .png/svg background image in gnome-panel and it has some sort of transparency, it will respect it, kicker doesn't.
5.- Did you really believe that it's customizable????! Are you serious?


I believe you are talking about style while sunexplodes was talking about functionality. With kicker I can add many applets and I can have it setup like I want to (I currently have very small bars, one at the top, one at the bottom, kind of like the Ubuntu Gnome setup). Plasma is promising all this (the functionality and plasmoids on the panel) but it hasn't really shown it yet. I agree with sunexplodes that I'd rather see and test functionality first before having it nice-looking. We have a release candidate now and still the panel seems kind of useless. But I still believe that Plasma will get there. And I can imagine that it will be great because it is a unified approach. I'd just like some more functions rather than a better look first.

Tobias

[therobbot]

Something I haven't seen yet in this discussion:
I sure hope that Plasma will have a "lock configuration" button. I think having the configuration menus popping up all the time on the plasmoids and in the upper right corner is just strange. I mean... normally I'd set it up and then I don't want to customize it anymore until I get bored by the current setup. So it's probably a ratio of about 1/100 of customize/use. For that the customization possibility is way too much in your face.

Tobias

[LuisAugusto]

I believe you are talking about style while sunexplodes was talking about functionality. With kicker I can add many applets and I can have it setup like I want to (I currently have very small bars, one at the top, one at the bottom, kind of like the Ubuntu Gnome setup). Plasma is promising all this (the functionality and plasmoids on the panel) but it hasn't really shown it yet. I agree with sunexplodes that I'd rather see and test functionality first before having it nice-looking. We have a release candidate now and still the panel seems kind of useless. But I still believe that Plasma will get there. And I can imagine that it will be great because it is a unified approach. I'd just like some more functions rather than a better look first.

Tobias

I pointed out why people hate kicker. That's all.

And, Plasma (at it's current state) aloud you to have multiple panels, change their size, add plasmoids to it, etc.

Again, the functionality is there, what it's missing are dialogs.

Anyway, I agree that Plasma isn't RC Quality, but it's the only non-frozen part of KDE 4.0, so it will change, for example, in the RC there isn't a Change Background Dialog, on the svn, it already exists.


Something I haven't seen yet in this discussion:
I sure hope that Plasma will have a "lock configuration" button. I think having the configuration menus popping up all the time on the plasmoids and in the upper right corner is just strange. I mean... normally I'd set it up and then I don't want to customize it anymore until I get bored by the current setup. So it's probably a ratio of about 1/100 of customize/use. For that the customization possibility is way too much in your face.

Tobias

Couldn't agree more.

[sunexplodes]

Gee, I love flamewars and arguements and all, but this is getting a bit ridiculous.

Anyway, can't wait to take a gander at the finished KDE4. I tried KDE3 a couple weeks ago, and I found it's actually very nice once you get used to customizing everything. I can't wait to screw around with plasmoids.

In any case, we can all agree...better than Aero or Aqua. That's for sure.

Yeah, flamewar indeed.

I'd like to apologize for my part in it. I don't want to fight with anybody, I really would just like to have the option of keeping my Kicker and KMenu over the new Plasma stuff. That's all. I'm sure it's beautiful and very functional.

I don't see why there has to be a fight. For me, KDE is about having choice.

[DeadSuperHero]

Yeah, flamewar indeed.
For me, KDE is about having choice.

That's true. However, someone will probably port kicker to KDE4, and then all will be well.

[Erunno]

That's true. However, someone will probably port kicker to KDE4, and then all will be well.

Unlikely, I don't see anyone really missing Kicker on the devel mailings lists and the current maintainer of Kicker in KDE3 (Aaron J. Seigo of Plasma fame) seems to hate it with a passion. Plus, as far as I understand the Kicker code is not trivial and hard to maintain thus further lowering its chances that it will be ever seen in KDE4.

Since most of Kicker's functionality will probably be ported to a plasmoid over time (hopefully until 4.1) I don't really see the need of Kicker in KDE4 (just something that behaves like it).

[Sammi]

You guys do realize that Plasma is not finished yet and still lacks major features that will be implemented later, right?

How is it fair to compare a piece of software that is still unreleased and in heavy active development with one that was released as feature finished and stable years ago?

[esaym]

is KDE hard to use
i'm just starting to feel comfortable with GNOME...


I find gnome almost impossible to use. I just recently converted a few people to kde. I don't know why, but I spend hours trying to get a simple task done in gnome. Simple file browsing really seems to be a pain. I am not sure if kde is more windows like or it is just more "natural" but I have never really had a problem with it. It was the first desktop I used when I first tried linux back in 2002. I had never even knew what gnome was until about a year ago.

Linus has ranted about gnome and usably many times.

I have messed around with kde4. I am not the kind of person that likes alot of pretty stuff all over the screen. Hopefully I can disable it all. I currently just use the win98 theme with kde. Works fine.

[racoq]

I start to say that i'm an XFCE user, and occasionally an Gnome user (Xubuntu and Ubuntu) but i start to say that Plasma seems indeed quite promising, the default theme, and the dialogs, seems very pretty, i liked the widgets, and the new composite builtin support that supports an exposé like effect. However as ever all that great new eye candy is spoiled by that horrible big panel with the "K".

I mean we all agree that usability is not having a big taskbar that takes a lot of space from the workspace, but instead of that a thin and elegant bar.

I wonder in what studies they've based their conclusions that this new taskbar is more usable? That's simply not true. It just seems to get in the way of everything.

Are we all that wrong, and they are not? I really don't think so.

[happysmileman]

However as ever all that great new eye candy is spoiled by that horrible big panel with the "K".
Change the icon?


I mean we all agree that usability is not having a big taskbar that takes a lot of space from the workspace, but instead of that a thin and elegant bar.
Change the size? (And GNOME has 2 taskbars by default so it's still the same amount of space used)


I wonder in what studies they've based their conclusions that this new taskbar is more usable? That's simply not true. It just seems to get in the way of everything.
AFAIK the studies were to do with the new Menu, not the taskbar it's on, I agree the taskbar is a bit big, but it's a lot easier to change than in GNOME (at least on 3.5, and hopefully in 4)

[atlfalcons866]

im using gnome till kde4 is default in ubuntu

[racoq]

Change the icon?


Change the size? (And GNOME has 2 taskbars by default so it's still the same amount of space used)


AFAIK the studies were to do with the new Menu, not the taskbar it's on, I agree the taskbar is a bit big, but it's a lot easier to change than in GNOME (at least on 3.5, and hopefully in 4)

the problem is that at the present time, the size of the panel is not resizable. Will it be in the future?

I don't have nothing against the K, just against the big taskbar who takes too many pixels. I thought that as was said here that some of the KDE developers/designers, disliked the big and ugly kicker, why would they do a "kicker" V2 to kde 4?

Even if the panel size does is changeable in the future, default look counts and IMO that is far from a very clean default interface.

I agree with you about gnome. I removed the second panel and replaced it by AWN (which takes much less space on the workspace on one of mine computers)

[igknighted]

the problem is that at the present time, the size of the panel is not resizable. Will it be in the future?

I don't have nothing against the K, just against the big taskbar who takes too many pixels. I thought that as was said here that some of the KDE developers/designers, disliked the big and ugly kicker, why would they do a "kicker" V2 to kde 4?

Even if the panel size does is changeable in the future, default look counts and IMO that is far from a very clean default interface.

I agree with you about gnome. I removed the second panel and replaced it by AWN (which takes much less space on the workspace on one of mine computers)

Have you read this thread? It IS resizable already, the GUI config dialog just isn't done yet. This has been discussed above ad nauseum. The feature is in place and by the time the final version is out, it should be ready to go. In fact I believe someone mentioned some of this is already in place in the svn.

Also, creating an AWN-like dock that makes use of compositing and can have myriad plugins is a trivial affair with plasma. Don't be surprised to see one of these available shortly to replace the default panel.

[yatt]

Seems contradictory to me.

1) I never suggested to take away the choice from others. If you go back and read what I said, I expressed that I hope I HAVE the choice between the two, rather than being forced to use the new UI if I don't like it.

2) I'd hope somebody ports it. I'd hate to leave KDE, but man, I am SO not impressed with what I've seen so far.

3) Yep. It'll always be there. But I'd like to be able to take advantage of some of the new features, and more importantly, the new programs, which will likely have a KDE4 dependency.

I really don't see why you're taking my comments as if they're attacks. I think some good work's being done with KDE4, but the general UI is not pleasing to me in its current state, and in a few areas, I think it's taking a step or two backward. It's not like I'm picking on YOU or something. Nor am I stating that these advances shouldn't be made, I'm just saying that the option should be there for people who like the old way better. The reason I use KDE over GNOME is because I like CHOICE. I like to be able to customize and use my desktop environment in such a way as to please me visually AND help me get my work done efficiently.

My ideal would be the "You CAN use Plasma if you want to, but you don't HAVE TO." That's all I'm saying here.I doubt you will be able to not use Plasma, but you should be able approximate the older style panels when it is done. As for the old KMenu, I'm fairly sure someone will port. The All-In-One menus didn't make it terribly far in Gnome. Although the all-in-one menus for Gnome were really bad...

[Tharkun]

I'll pass on KDE and stick with Gnome as it IIRC is more free.

[Polygon]

I'll pass on KDE and stick with Gnome as it IIRC is more free.

that used to be the case, which is why gnome got started in the first place but both kde and gnome are equally 'free' now.

[mysticrider92]

I tried some slightly older KDE4 release and was quickly turned off by the lack of a configuration program, but those screenshots are just so nice... I am probably going to end up installing it again soon (yay, 400mb of installer files on Arch Linux...).

I can't wait to see the completed KDE4, I may be a little closer to switching from GNOME...

[cookies]

Whatever happened to Raptor Menu? (http://pinheiro-kde.blogspot.com/2007/11/more-on-raptor.html)

[Zoiked]

I was pretty upset on how they rushed KDE 4. They had the best concept, features, looks but they had listen to the users that just said "Hurry up with the release!". I just hope KDE 4.1 will fix and update all them stupid and annoying bugs and not finished features. When Ubuntu 8.10 comes out, KDE 4 should be polished and KDE should be back on track. :D

[user1397]

Ehhh...
it installed well, but as far as being stable....ehhh (its prolly my old, dumb computer)
I do like the new look, and the whole default widgets thingie at the top right corner though

[LuisAugusto]

Whatever happened to Raptor Menu? (http://pinheiro-kde.blogspot.com/2007/11/more-on-raptor.html)

Work in progress, they're developing it.

Here is a commit-digest (http://commit-digest.org/issues/2007-11-04/) showing its ideals and progress

[DeadSuperHero]

Holy Crap! Blu Ray support?!
Effing tight!

[therobbot]

I still don't quite see what is better about all those new menus. Kmenu works very fine for me if it's setup sensibly (well structured and not too many submenus) which works much better here than in windows where it quickly becomes cluttered.

It still seems to be the fastest menu I tried. Kickoff is just so annoying with all those clicking. I have to click to get to a submenu and if I accidently clicked on the wrong one I have to move to the left and click again and again to go to the right one and again and again...

I think this is nice for people who have troubles working with the mouse like my parents. But I feel is very unproductive for regular computer users. Am I the only one feeling this way? I sure hope Kmenu will be ported... I like change and new ideas (e.g. I got totally used to Compiz and Scale to switch tasks) but they have to make my workflow better not slow it down.

Tobias

[Incense]

I still don't quite see what is better about all those new menus. Kmenu works very fine for me if it's setup sensibly (well structured and not too many submenus) which works much better here than in windows where it quickly becomes cluttered.

It still seems to be the fastest menu I tried. Kickoff is just so annoying with all those clicking. I have to click to get to a submenu and if I accidently clicked on the wrong one I have to move to the left and click again and again to go to the right one and again and again...

I think this is nice for people who have troubles working with the mouse like my parents. But I feel is very unproductive for regular computer users. Am I the only one feeling this way? I sure hope Kmenu will be ported... I like change and new ideas (e.g. I got totally used to Compiz and Scale to switch tasks) but they have to make my workflow better not slow it down.

Tobias

I've been using the new menu on SUSE for about a year now, and I don't feel like it slows me down at all. Although to be honest I have all the programsI really use on the first fav menu, and everything else I use katapult to launch. I can see your point though since programs can become nested pretty far down on those sub menus. I'm sure the old k menu will pop up in KDE4. ATM you can load kickoff, tasty, and KBFX (i think it's called) or the normal K menu. I think it would be really odd for this level of choice and customization to be lost in KDE4.

[Sammi]

I was pretty upset on how they rushed KDE 4. They had the best concept, features, looks but they had listen to the users that just said "Hurry up with the release!". I just hope KDE 4.1 will fix and update all them stupid and annoying bugs and not finished features. When Ubuntu 8.10 comes out, KDE 4 should be polished and KDE should be back on track. :D
No!

Always release early and release often!!!

You really should take a look at the essay by Eric S. Raymond, The Cathedral and the Bazzar, often heralded as the Linux manifesto. One of the chapters is named "Release early, release often", and it deals with how open source development works better when the software is released as quickly as possible, rather than sitting on it until it's "perfect".

Read it here: http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/cathedral-bazaar/ar01s04.html (http://www.catb.org/%7Eesr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/cathedral-bazaar/ar01s04.html)

This article explains it pretty well too:
http://radio.weblogs.com/0103807/stories/2002/12/01/understandingTheImportanceOfReleaseEarlyReleaseOft en.html

...If you re an ex-commercial developer then you want desperately o reach a "1.0" stage or a "near functional", "mostly baked" stage before going live. You wouldn't want to release something piece meal, would you? After all -- that's the way it's done.
Actually no. In the Open Source world, that's not how it's done. The best Open Source projects tend to start small, release early, release often (RERO) -- even if it's only a little bit of functional (but useful) code. Projects can release anything as long as it stands on it's own feet and is at least minimally useful to someone beyond the initial developer. Open Source projects tend to evolve as much or more than they are developed. Most projects are an ever changing, ever morphing response to the constant customer input that "release early, release often" brings...
KDE 4.0 is not supposed to be a complete or "perfect" release. It's supposed to be a good base for KDE to evolve on in the future.

[cookies]

Work in progress, they're developing it.

Here is a commit-digest (http://commit-digest.org/issues/2007-11-04/) showing its ideals and progress

Ah, thanks for clearing that up.

[ice60]

is there a way to make KDE look like it's using gtk? i'd like to use it, but i think qt looks ugly a lot of the time. i've seen 1 or 2 kde desktops i really like, but if it got rid of the qt look i'd really like it! i thought someone was working on a way to make gtk apps like like qt apps and vice-versa??

[DeadSuperHero]

Hm...I don't want to go through the trouble of compiling RC1 myself...
Any pre-compiled ISO's to download?
Last one I know of for RC1 is just OpenSUSE

[cookies]

is there a way to make KDE look like it's using gtk? i'd like to use it, but i think qt looks ugly a lot of the time. i've seen 1 or 2 kde desktops i really like, but if it got rid of the qt look i'd really like it! i thought someone was working on a way to make gtk apps like like qt apps and vice-versa??

Well, first I'd say find a style here (http://kde-look.org/index.php?xcontentmode=8x9x10x11x12x13x14x15x16&PHPSESSID=86254cd2ea90aec5be25408ce2cbe95c) that looks like a GTK theme.

And KDE can make GTK apps look like KDE, but not the other way around.

[happysmileman]

that used to be the case, which is why gnome got started in the first place but both kde and gnome are equally 'free' now.

Except now Miguel de Icaza is trying to push Mono (Implementation of MS's .NET platform), and supports OOXML, calling it a "superb standard". So while these things are "free" (excluding the blatant omissions in the OOXML specification) I still consider them a hypocrisy considering QT wasn't free enough for Miguel, but incomplete standards made by MS are apparently good enough.

So I consider KDE to be "more free" nowadays.

[happysmileman]

Holy Crap! Blu Ray support?!
Effing tight!

Do you have a link for this, I've searched and definitely saw something about improved blu-ray support in K3B, but is that ripping or burning? Will it be able to play Blu-Ray videos? Will they be limited to data storage?

/me wants answers, preferably ones explaining how great the blu-ray support is

[yatt]

Do you have a link for this, I've searched and definitely saw something about improved blu-ray support in K3B, but is that ripping or burning? Will it be able to play Blu-Ray videos? Will they be limited to data storage?

/me wants answers, preferably ones explaining how great the blu-ray support isIt shouldn't be too different from KDE3. Some apps like k3b may not have the appropriate menus in KDE3 (no idea for KDE4), but for most media players, it will be the same as what KDE3 can do.

[happysmileman]

It shouldn't be too different from KDE3. Some apps like k3b may not have the appropriate menus in KDE3 (no idea for KDE4), but for most media players, it will be the same as what KDE3 can do.

KDE3 supports blu-ray? I wouldn't know because I don't have a blu-ray drive (or any blu-ray disks) but it'd definitely be interesting to know, especially with all the effort they put into trying to lock out everyone except Vista users (pretty much)