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xArv3nx
November 14th, 2007, 08:58 PM
Does anyone else get frustrated at the Linux community? I've gotten so sick of it nowadays, just mentioning it gives me a headache.

It really has made me abandon Linux.

Discuss.

EDIT: No flaming please, just tell me what you think of the Linux community.

paul.matthijsse
November 14th, 2007, 09:03 PM
Does anyone else get frustrated at the Linux community?Not at all, it's a very helpful and knowledgeable group of people. What's your problem exactly?

boast
November 14th, 2007, 09:05 PM
Debian has a small forum, so its helpful and my problems usually get help.

In ubuntu forums, my threads get burried in 10 minutes.

shad0w_walker
November 14th, 2007, 09:05 PM
I have never got annoyed by the Ubuntu community, There have been times when i have been annoyed by other communities with the more elitist attitude but they exist no matter what you are dealing with so I really doesn't matter.

wieman01
November 14th, 2007, 09:07 PM
I have never got annoyed by the Ubuntu community, There have been times when i have been annoyed by other communities with the more elitist attitude but they exist no matter what you are dealing with so I really doesn't matter.
+1.

All said.

Nano Geek
November 14th, 2007, 09:10 PM
Debian has a small forum, so its helpful and my problems usually get help.

In ubuntu forums, my threads get burried in 10 minutes.We try to help as many people as possible. There are a lot of users needing help, so not all questions get answered unfortunately. You can help though by answering questions that you know the answer to.

smartbei
November 14th, 2007, 09:13 PM
Does anyone else get frustrated at the Linux community? I've gotten so sick of it nowadays, just mentioning it gives me a headache.

It really has made me abandon Linux.


A new contendant for the dictionary definition of a troll (or more specifically, a contrarian troll)! See http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1032102

Dimitriid
November 14th, 2007, 09:13 PM
For a series of OSes relying on something like FOSS its way too conservative. I guess this is to be expected since the vast majority of computer users tend towards imperialist countries that allow both the monetary resources and the free time in their lifestyle.

Mazza558
November 14th, 2007, 09:14 PM
Yeah, the Ubuntu Forums are, in my opinion, the nicest tech community on the web.

Nano Geek
November 14th, 2007, 09:20 PM
For a series of OSes relying on something like FOSS its way too conservative. I guess this is to be expected since the vast majority of computer users tend towards imperialist countries that allow both the monetary resources and the free time in their lifestyle.I'm not sure I'm following you. How is Linux being to conservative? And I can't figure out what you mean by "monetary resources and the free time in their lifestyle." And what does this have to do with the OP's topic?

xArv3nx
November 14th, 2007, 09:36 PM
A new contendant for the dictionary definition of a troll (or more specifically, a contrarian troll)! See http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1032102
Exactly what I'm talking about.

phrostbyte
November 14th, 2007, 09:39 PM
This thread needs more cowbell.

urukrama
November 14th, 2007, 09:40 PM
It really has made me abandon Linux.

Even if I would be disgusted with the Linux community, that wouldn't be a reason to stop using Linux. I use Ubuntu as my operating system because it helps me be more efficient in my work, not because I want to belong to some community (though that is, in Ubuntu's case, a very positive plus).

aysiu
November 14th, 2007, 09:45 PM
Debian has a small forum, so its helpful and my problems usually get help.

In ubuntu forums, my threads get burried in 10 minutes.
They don't get buried at all.

I looked at your threads. Every single thread had at least 12 views. Some had as many as 288 or 2,973 views. Nothing got buried. Most of your threads were even replied to, and the ones that weren't replied to were viewed, which means the problem was probably too hard to be solved.

Maybe the Debian users are more knowledgeable, but Ubuntu Forum threads do not get buried or ignored.

FG123
November 14th, 2007, 09:48 PM
There are a small bunch of extremists/zealots here who hate capitalism, closed-source software and making money from software, but apart from that most people here are just dandy,

xArv3nx
November 14th, 2007, 09:50 PM
Even if I would be disgusted with the Linux community, that wouldn't be a reason to stop using Linux. I use Ubuntu as my operating system because it helps me be more efficient in my work, not because I want to belong to some community (though that is, in Ubuntu's case, a very positive plus).
But Linux in general is very community oriented, everything revolves around the community.

Once the community dies, Linux will be dead. (Or at least progress halted for a good bit)

aysiu
November 14th, 2007, 09:52 PM
But Linux in general is very community oriented, everything revolves around the community.

Once the community dies, Linux will be dead. (Or at least progress halted for a good bit)
But that doesn't mean you need to interact with the community. The community can toss around ideas, file bug reports, donate money, create documentation, etc., and you can directly benefit from all the community work, but you do not have to sign up for forums or mailing lists and participate in the community in order to use Linux.

Whiffle
November 14th, 2007, 09:52 PM
Exactly what I'm talking about.

From my point of view, smartbei is pretty accurate with that assessment. You didn't even specify what it is that annoys you about us/the linux community. How are we supposed to fix something if we don't know whats broken?

Speaking of which, that is my only gripe about this place, well, I suppose most places. So very often people don't give much of any detail in their posts, just that they have problem X. There may be eleventy billion ways to fix problem X, but if we don't know some background about problem X, then there isn't much chance of an improvement.


I agree, this thread DOES need more cowbell. And christopher walken.

23meg
November 14th, 2007, 09:53 PM
I've gotten so sick of it nowadays, just mentioning it gives me a headache.

It really has made me abandon Linux.

May I ask what your problem with the community has been? What exactly is it that's got you so angry?

xArv3nx
November 14th, 2007, 09:55 PM
Two posts above me:

Windows flaming, I can understand you not liking it, but get over it.

Also, flaming towards other distros (Linspire, Freespire, anybody that made a deal with Microsoft or that uses proprietary software)

It seems every post someone makes they have to say either the word Microshaft or Microsuck.

Dimitriid
November 14th, 2007, 09:56 PM
I'm not sure I'm following you. How is Linux being to conservative? And I can't figure out what you mean by "monetary resources and the free time in their lifestyle." And what does this have to do with the OP's topic?

Not Linux, the Linux Communities Ive encountered. What I mean is that bourgeoisie and petit-bourgeoisie represent a more significant part of the population who has access to computers and enough downtime to use them and come to forums like this. And of course if you consider countries like mine where 60% of the population lives in poverty and rarely has access to computers, people is bound to support a conservative stand on most aspects of life ( except some aspects of IT it seems, not all however, as seen on multiple DRM discussions ).

The Original poster's topic its a non-descriptive rant and these are my reasons to be frustrated with the community sometimes: apparently maybe 1 poster or 2 out of the thousands are able to understand where im coming from most of the time forcing me to either derail topics to explain my political views or watch in disgust at how capitalist thinking erodes everybody's mind and alienates them.

Whiffle
November 14th, 2007, 09:59 PM
Two posts above me:

Windows flaming, I can understand you not liking it, but get over it.

Also, flaming towards other distros (Linspire, Freespire, anybody that made a deal with Microsoft or that uses proprietary software)

It seems every post someone makes they have to say either the word Microshaft or Microsuck.

Yeah that does get old. I do cringe every time I see MS with a $ or Windows spelled incorrectly. That doesn't make me hate linux and boot up windows again, because for me, windows still stinks. I don't think its going to be going away anytime soon, there seems to be alot of pent up anger towards everybody's favorite punching bag OS.


Anyway, my solution is mainly to stick to posts that are tech related, until I see something with a juicy thread title to jump into, like this one.
Oh and I'm totally posting this from Slackware. Take that Ubuntu users!

Dimitriid
November 14th, 2007, 09:59 PM
There are a small bunch of extremists/zealots here who hate capitalism, closed-source software and making money from software, but apart from that most people here are just dandy,

"Small bunch" is a complete misrepresentation: derogative adjectives aside, name more than 3...

FG123
November 14th, 2007, 10:00 PM
The complaint about the deliberate munging of the word Microsoft gets on my goat too. I'd complain about it being childish, but others would just say right back that it's just "humor".

Let me tell you something about this form of humor - it's fun for a brief moment, but if everyone keeps doing it, it's no longer fun. That time passed ages ago, we're fighting for recognition here, not as comedians.

xArv3nx
November 14th, 2007, 10:02 PM
Yeah, but you're forgetting that half of the people here engage in this (flaming), and say these words.

I'll be back later, going home. (Takes an hour of pure driving to get home from school, first one to get off the bus.)

popch
November 14th, 2007, 10:03 PM
Two posts above me:

Windows flaming, I can understand you not liking it, but get over it.

Also, flaming towards other distros (Linspire, Freespire, anybody that made a deal with Microsoft or that uses proprietary software)

It seems every post someone makes they have to say either the word Microshaft or Microsuck.

Where? I can not see anything of the sort in this thread.

aysiu
November 14th, 2007, 10:04 PM
Windows flaming, I can understand you not liking it, but get over it. Couldn't the same be said of your thread? Just substitute in Linux community for the word Windows in that sentence.

FG123
November 14th, 2007, 10:04 PM
"Small bunch" is a complete misrepresentation: derogative adjectives aside, name more than 3...
Dixon Bainbridge
DoctorMO
You

Sorry, could only do three for now.

EDIT: Not that I have anything against you guys personally, but your opinions... I just smile. :)

aysiu
November 14th, 2007, 10:06 PM
I'll be back later Why bother? If you don't like the Linux community, stay away from it. That'd be the logical thing to do.

I don't know yet whether you are a troll or not, but your behavior certainly is beginning to look more and more troll-like as this thread goes on: Make a strong statement you know will provoke reaction--a vague enough one that you don't need to substantiate When someone calls you a troll, say that that calling reinforces your point (even though you made no such point earlier) Complain about how you dislike the community, but then keep posting in a thread that involves the community

Dimitriid
November 14th, 2007, 10:09 PM
Dixon Bainbridge
DoctorMO
You

Sorry, could only do three for now.

EDIT: Not that I have anything against you guys personally, but your opinions... I just smile. :)

Doesn't looks like much of a bunch to me. Could it be that your dislike from our stances makes you perceive the few vocal opposers who articulate more than saying "windblows" as a bigger annoyance than what we might actually represent?

If anything my case for annoyance which was directly opposite ( and as well, nothing personal either ) holds more water.

potentia
November 14th, 2007, 10:10 PM
I have been frustrated with some fanboys who consider themselves in a battle with Microsoft and with any close source software... and people (probably kids) who claim that GIMP can do anything that Photoshop can do, even though is it a fact that it can't. The problem is, they WANT it to be the truth so much that they deny the reality so much, that discussing with them turns into a joke, a circus.

That is when you know you are not having a discussion with people, but that you are up against fanatics. You get RTFM answers and "learn how to use GIMP/Linux" and blah blah.

The road ahead for Linux can't depend on these guys. We need people with a balanced point of view. Linux is far from ready to compete face-to-face with Windows and OS X. Some day it can, if Linux enthusiasts stop being sensitive fanboys, see the whole matter in a bigger perspective and spend some time on understanding other peoples viewpoint and needs.

Generally people here are extremely helpful, but that is not a Linux geek exclusive; people with the same interest usually help each other quite a lot. The problem is that some new users can't air the slightest opposition to Linux or to some program without insulting the fanboys.

These fanboys should try to work in a support role, and learn some humility and social skills. Any criticism could indicate that something is wrong. If you always think that criticism means that the user is nuts or incompetent, then you are heading towards fanaticism.

I have seen perfectly valid and sound discussions here close because of "trolling". It was not. It as a normal discussion. I almost felt like abandoning Linux and this forum every time. I felt like I was living under a dictatorship. Thats how people living under despotism must feel.

The discussion can just be controlled in here, however. People try Linux every day, and some may trash it, cursing out loud. The only way to get them to use Linux is to improve Linux dramatically and to listen. Not silencing them in here.

This is a safe environment for many fanboys. The real life isn't. I hope they develop their social skills out there among real humans, because the way the act in here would get them into trouble out there. Or into... solitude. With their safe environtment. Linux and their community.

FG123
November 14th, 2007, 10:17 PM
Doesn't looks like much of a bunch to me. Could it be that your dislike from our stances makes you perceive the few vocal opposers who articulate more than saying "windblows" as a bigger annoyance than what we might actually represent?

If anything my case for annoyance which was directly opposite ( and as well, nothing personal either ) holds more water.
Point taken. Although the smaller group with the differing views tends to express those views a little more... passionately than others. :)

aysiu
November 14th, 2007, 10:18 PM
It sounds to me as if you need to recognize and embrace some balance, potentia.

From your description, it would seem there are only those who rightfully criticize Linux and those who are fanboyish and do not accept any criticism of it whatsoever.

That is not the case. And I have never seen legitimate or sound discussions closed because of trolling. If you find such a thread, please point it out to me. There are a lots of criticism threads that are productive and continue for long periods of time (check out the Gutsy Ideal Pool threads, for example), because they are constructive and specific about their criticisms. People who just post "Linux sucks" or "Windows is so much easier; Linux is still for geeks" threads are trolling. When asked to do something about it and make real change, these folks rarely step up to the plate. Whining is one thing. Doing something about it is the only thing that matters. If people want to donate money, contribute code, file bug reports, write documentation, create artwork, or help in other constructive ways, their work is always appreciated. When they just rattle of vague "suggestions" like "Just make suspend work" or "Make it play Windows-only games," how does that help anyone?

I do agree with you, though, that people tend to oversell Linux as this cure-all for Windows problems. GIMP does not do everything Photoshop does. Linux cannot do everything Windows does. Yet people constantly create websites or write blogs that say, "Tired of Windows problems? Try Linux." No. We shouldn't do that. Linux is not a drop-in replacement for Windows. People who come to Linux should recognize the road bumps and growing pains involved in migration, while we wait for the developers to smooth some of that out, as they have been wonderful about doing over the years.

Some people are a bit overenthusiastic, but this "fanboys" label is just a quick way to silence those you disagree with, just as you supposedly feel you're being silenced. You'll see--if you ask any of these alleged Linux-can-do-no-wrong "fanboys" what's wrong with Linux or what could be improved--that they can rattle off more improvement suggestions (and specific ones) than you can.

Nano Geek
November 14th, 2007, 10:20 PM
Not Linux, the Linux Communities Ive encountered. What I mean is that bourgeoisie and petit-bourgeoisie represent a more significant part of the population who has access to computers and enough downtime to use them and come to forums like this. And of course if you consider countries like mine where 60% of the population lives in poverty and rarely has access to computers, people is bound to support a conservative stand on most aspects of life ( except some aspects of IT it seems, not all however, as seen on multiple DRM discussions ).

The Original poster's topic its a non-descriptive rant and these are my reasons to be frustrated with the community sometimes: apparently maybe 1 poster or 2 out of the thousands are able to understand where im coming from most of the time forcing me to either derail topics to explain my political views or watch in disgust at how capitalist thinking erodes everybody's mind and alienates them.I still don't see what this has to do with the original posters complaint. Are you saying that people's political views are the problem with the Ubuntu Forums?

urukrama
November 14th, 2007, 10:24 PM
It sounds to me as if you need to recognize and embrace some balance, potentia.

From your description, it would seem there are only those who rightfully criticize Linux and those who are fanboyish and do not accept any criticism of it whatsoever.

That is not the case. And I have never seen legitimate or sound discussions closed because of trolling. If you find such a thread, please point it out to me. There are a lots of criticism threads that are productive and continue for long periods of time (check out the Gutsy Ideal Pool threads, for example), because they are constructive and specific about their criticisms. People who just post "Linux sucks" or "Windows is so much easier; Linux is still for geeks" threads are trolling. When asked to do something about it and make real change, these folks rarely step up to the plate. Whining is one thing. Doing something about it is the only thing that matters. If people want to donate money, contribute code, file bug reports, write documentation, create artwork, or help in other constructive ways, their work is always appreciated. When they just rattle of vague "suggestions" like "Just make suspend work" or "Make it play Windows-only games," how does that help anyone?

I do agree with you, though, that people tend to oversell Linux as this cure-all for Windows problems. GIMP does not do everything Photoshop does. Linux cannot do everything Windows does. Yet people constantly create websites or write blogs that say, "Tired of Windows problems? Try Linux." No. We shouldn't do that. Linux is not a drop-in replacement for Windows. People who come to Linux should recognize the road bumps and growing pains involved in migration, while we wait for the developers to smooth some of that out, as they have been wonderful about doing over the years.

Some people are a bit overenthusiastic, but this "fanboys" label is just a quick way to silence those you disagree with, just as you supposedly feel you're being silenced. You'll see--if you ask any of these alleged Linux-can-do-no-wrong "fanboys" what's wrong with Linux or what could be improved--that they can rattle off more improvement suggestions (and specific ones) than you can.

This is well-written. Thank you.

FG123
November 14th, 2007, 10:26 PM
Isn't aysiu an english teacher or somesuch in real life? How can you bump heads with them and expect to win? :)

Nano Geek
November 14th, 2007, 10:28 PM
Isn't aysiu an english teacher or somesuch in real life? How can you bump heads with them and expect to win? :)I think he's an ex-English teacher. And yea, don't expect to win. :)

aysiu
November 14th, 2007, 10:28 PM
Isn't aysiu an english teacher or somesuch in real life? How can you bump heads with them and expect to win? :)
I taught high school English for five years, but I'm taking a break from teaching. Right now I work as a receptionist for an admission office.

I don't see how that means I "win." There are a lot of intelligent and articulate folks on these forums.

FG123
November 14th, 2007, 10:30 PM
Uhg, smile once in a while aysiu. :)

Dimitriid
November 14th, 2007, 10:32 PM
I have been frustrated with some fanboys who consider themselves in a battle with Microsoft and with any close source software...

Well I too get annoyed to know that my entire existence is either acceptance of something I hate or constant struggle against it. Cause Microsoft and closed source represents a lot more than just software, it represent the current state of affair on almost every single part of life.

But even then, Ubuntu actively encourages this sentiments even on people without strong feelings about all corporations: take a look at your menu, go to add/remove programs and read the language used to describe software other than FOSS in there ( not to mention its ratings and warnings )



and people (probably kids) who claim that GIMP can do anything that Photoshop can do, even though is it a fact that it can't. The problem is, they WANT it to be the truth so much that they deny the reality so much, that discussing with them turns into a joke, a circus.

If anything everybody is almost in complete agreement about GIMP vs Photoshop ( with GIMP always on the losing end ). I honestly think that you too misrepresent how annoyed you are by a very tiny minority with the actual amount of people on the aforementioned group.



The road ahead for Linux can't depend on these guys. We need people with a balanced view. Linux is far from ready to compete face-to-face with Windows and OS X. Some day it can, if Linux enthusiasts stop being sensitive fanboys, see the whole matter in a bigger perspective and spend some time on understanding other peoples viewpoint and needs.

Without what you perceive as zealots there wouldn't be any GNU Linux or FOSS to begin with, compromising developers have been consistently bought out by Microsoft. Restricting people to what feels comfortable to you will eventually lead into other kinds of restrictive environments like the windows environment.

Im sorry but you just can't have it both ways sometimes, not when so many people want Linux gone.



Generally people here are extremely helpful, but that is not a Linux geek exclusive; people with the same interest usually help each other quite a lot. The problem is that some new users can't air the slightest opposition to Linux or to some program without insulting the fanboys.

You'd get the same reactions on ANY place where volunteers try to help others with their chosen software. That again is to me a complete misrepresentation from somebody intend on bitting the hand that feeds him when the same behavior is ever present if you even think about mentioning Linux to a forum of windows gamers helping you troubleshoot for example ( even 10x more immature if you ask me )



These fanboys should try to work in a support role, and learn some humility and social skills.

I do work on a support role, a Help Desk no less. What I get out of my humility and social skills its a paycheck. I suggest you try making official support requests to Canonical employees if you demand "humility and social skills". Otherwise you are in no position to demand anything out of anybody which is what you look like when you select this language.



I have seen perfectly valid and sound discussions here close because of "trolling".

Ive seen the exact same thing on every single internet forum in the last 15 years or so. I just don't understand why you insist on applying qualities of any internet community as if they were exclusive of Linux communities.



The discussion can just be controlled in here, however. People try Linux every day, and some may trash it, cursing out loud. The only way to get them to use Linux is to improve Linux dramatically and to listen. Not silencing them in here.

Well go ahead and improve it dramatically then, you are free to do so under GNU License. Maybe you'd find is no small tasks then. As for "silencing" people I think only moderators are actually capable of doing that. Other than that its just a forum of volunteers and people with a few common interests ( and I do have to stress a few ) no different from any other.

potentia
November 14th, 2007, 10:39 PM
The point is, I can't. I am not a programmer, nor is almost every user on the planet. This "do it yourself" attitude does lead anywhere. People wont. Thy will choose the better product. That is, right now, not Linux.

Thats why I repeat: listen to the costumer that are not part of the Linux enthusiast core.

I'll try to find these closed discussion. A few where move to a closed part of the forum? Seaching for contect doesn't help...

I'll get back to my everyday life: politics...with face to face discussions.

aysiu
November 14th, 2007, 10:42 PM
The point is, I can't. I am not a programmer, nor is almost every user on the planet. I'm not a programmer either.

If you'd read my post carefully, you would have seen I offered several suggestions for ways people can improve Linux and/or Ubuntu. I did not say, "Hey, if you're a programmer, you can help. Otherwise, there's nothing you can do."

I'll spread them out so you can be sure not to miss them this time:
You can write documentation
You donate money
You can file bug reports
You can contribute artwork
You can create marketing materials

There are any number of ways you can positively contribute to Linux that do not involve being a programmer.

p_quarles
November 14th, 2007, 10:46 PM
The point is, I can't. I am not a programmer, nor is almost every user on the planet. This "do it yourself" attitude does lead anywhere. People wont.
There are a lot of ways to help without being a programmer. I think aysiu's point, though, was that complaining about things that developers are already trying to fix (such as suspend) also leads nowhere. And I agree wholeheartedly.

Thy will choose the better product. That is, right now, not Linux.
For you, perhaps not. I find that Linux suits my needs considerably better, though.


Thats why I repeat: listen to the costumer that are not part of the Linux enthusiast core.
That's what Canonical is doing. No, it's not at the point yet where it will satisfy the needs of every user, but their goal is to make it attractive to people who are not part of the "Linux enthusiast core." Again, asking developers to do something that they're already trying to do doesn't really lead anywhere.

potentia
November 14th, 2007, 10:48 PM
I'm not a programmer either.

If you'd read my post carefully, you would have seen I offered several suggestions for ways people can improve Linux and/or Ubuntu. I did not say, "Hey, if you're a programmer, you can help. Otherwise, there's nothing you can do."

I'll spread them out so you can be sure not to miss them this time:
You can write documentation
You donate money
You can file bug reports
You can contribute artwork
You can create marketing materials
There are any number of ways you can positively contribute to Linux that do not involve being a programmer.

And, actually, I did most of these things and did it intensively for 6 years. I am even running a open source website with 8.000 to 10.000 unique monthly visitors. What makes you think that I didn't participate?

Back to square one. I don't like the attitude in here when confronted with some enthusiasts.

aysiu
November 14th, 2007, 10:48 PM
People who believe that Ubuntu is not working to listen to the "customers" should check out Warty Warthog (the Ubuntu release from October 2004), Breezy Badger (the October 2005 release), and then compare them to Gutsy Gibbon (the October 2007 release).

Dimitriid
November 14th, 2007, 10:48 PM
The point is, I can't. I am not a programmer, nor is almost every user on the planet. This "do it yourself" attitude does lead anywhere.

I suppose this "do it the way I tell you to do it!" attitude you take does? There you have it up there, ways you can contribute if you'd like.

aysiu
November 14th, 2007, 10:49 PM
And, actually, I did most of these things and did it intensively for 6 years. I am even running a open source website with 8.000 to 10.000 unique monthly visitors. What makes you think that I didn't participate? I didn't say you didn't participate. I said you didn't read my post carefully, which you didn't appear to, since you reacted as if I'd said you had to be a programmer to positively contribute.

potentia
November 14th, 2007, 10:50 PM
For you, perhaps not. I find that Linux suits my needs considerably better, though.


That is the whole PROBLEM in here! I do not talk about your needs or mine! We BOTH use Linux (from time to time).

I am talking about NEW users. Potential users. Millions of people!

n3tfury
November 14th, 2007, 10:50 PM
Does anyone else get frustrated at the Linux community? I've gotten so sick of it nowadays, just mentioning it gives me a headache.

It really has made me abandon Linux.

Discuss.

EDIT: No flaming please, just tell me what you think of the Linux community.

i'm not sifting through these pages to see WHY you're sick of the community, so why don't you update your original post. thanks.

SomeGuyDude
November 14th, 2007, 10:50 PM
The point is, I can't. I am not a programmer, nor is almost every user on the planet. This "do it yourself" attitude does lead anywhere. People wont. Thy will choose the better product. That is, right now, not Linux.

Thats why I repeat: listen to the costumer that are not part of the Linux enthusiast core.

I'll try to find these closed discussion. A few where move to a closed part of the forum? Seaching for contect doesn't help...

I'll get back to my everyday life: politics...with face to face discussions.

Okay here's what I don't get.

Ignoring the fact that Linux offers distros that range from "build it yourself" to Ubuntu's general user-friendly environment, it seems like you're complaining that Linux isn't exactly like OSX or Windows.

That's the reason those of us who DO use it have decided to do so. If you want Windows, use Windows. If you want OSX, use OSX. It's like buying a stick-shift car and then complaining that it's harder to use than an automatic and people don't want to "work" to make their car go.

potentia
November 14th, 2007, 10:52 PM
People who believe that Ubuntu is not working to listen to the "customers" should check out Warty Warthog (the Ubuntu release from October 2004), Breezy Badger (the October 2005 release), and then compare them to Gutsy Gibbon (the October 2007 release).

We are not talking about Canonical here, but the followers, the community.

Lets see where Ubuntu would be without Shuttleworth and his millions of $$$.

Dimitriid
November 14th, 2007, 10:52 PM
That is the whole PROBLEM in here! I do not talk about your needs or mine! We BOTH use Linux (from time to time).

I am talking about NEW users. Potential users. Millions of people!

So current users don't matter, only potential new users with no guarantee they'd even like Linux should be pampered and spoiled while people who actually make the OSes and people who makes that possible are irrelevant to you?

potentia
November 14th, 2007, 10:52 PM
I didn't say you didn't participate. I said you didn't read my post carefully, which you didn't appear to, since you reacted as if I'd said you had to be a programmer to positively contribute.

I can see I was replying to Dimitriid (http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=323051).

p_quarles
November 14th, 2007, 10:53 PM
That is the whole PROBLEM in here! I do not talk about your needs or mine! We BOTH use Linux (from time to time).
I was specifically responding to your claim that Windows was "better" than Linux, as though that were objectively quantifiable. Leaving both you and me out of the picture, I still think that the better OS depends on the user and his or her needs.

SomeGuyDude
November 14th, 2007, 10:53 PM
That is the whole PROBLEM in here! I do not talk about your needs or mine! We BOTH use Linux (from time to time).

I am talking about NEW users. Potential users. Millions of people!

So what you're saying is that rather than continue to be the product that the millions of us who DO use it like about it, Linux (as though "Linux" were a single entity, but we'll go with that for now) should abandon its prior ideals in order to emulate the very thing that it's supposed to be giving us an alternative to??

Let me ask you: what should Linux do to "fix" this problem, and once "fixed" what is going to separate it from, say, Windows or OSX?

potentia
November 14th, 2007, 10:53 PM
So current users don't matter, only potential new users with no guarantee they'd even like Linux should be pampered and spoiled while people who actually make the OSes and people who makes that possible are irrelevant to you?

I never said that. That is what you read. See? Sensitive to criticism!

Dimitriid
November 14th, 2007, 10:54 PM
I never said that. That is what you read. See? Sensitive to criticism!

You cant have it both ways how many times will we have to repeat that?

potentia
November 14th, 2007, 10:55 PM
So what you're saying is that rather than continue to be the product that the millions of us who DO use it like about it, Linux (as though "Linux" were a single entity, but we'll go with that for now) should abandon its prior ideals in order to emulate the very thing that it's supposed to be giving us an alternative to??

Let me ask you: what should Linux do to "fix" this problem, and once "fixed" what is going to separate it from, say, Windows or OSX?

I never said that.

Linux should not listen to me but to all the people it would like to embrace. That actually does happen with OS X and Windows.

Nano Geek
November 14th, 2007, 10:56 PM
That is the whole PROBLEM in here! I do not talk about your needs or mine! We BOTH use Linux (from time to time).

I am talking about NEW users. Potential users. Millions of people!We can't know if Linux works for those people unless they try it themselves and then file bugs telling us what didn't work for them. Whining on the forums isn't going to do anything but make people dislike you.

potentia
November 14th, 2007, 10:56 PM
You cant have it both ways how many times will we have to repeat that?

You clearly don't want to try.

SomeGuyDude
November 14th, 2007, 10:57 PM
I was specifically responding to your claim that Windows was "better" than Linux, as though that were objectively quantifiable. Leaving both you and me out of the picture, I still think that the better OS depends on the user and his or her needs.

Bingo. I still feel a little "floating" from time to time even in Ubuntu (can't imagine if I was stuck in Gentoo or something), but I like it better. It is better for me.

It's true that not as many people buy Mindless Self Indulgence CDs as buy Linkin Park CDs, but I heavily doubt you're going to find MSI altering itself just to be more marketable.

You're in politics, potentia, right? Why do people like Ron Paul over Hillary Clinton? Should Paul abandon his steadfast principles in order to sway more voters in the way Clinton can drift from topic to topic in order to gain support...

...OR should go educate everyone why he believes his ideas are the best, bringing THEM to HIM instead of pandering HIMSELF to THEM? You can argue that Paul can't win, but that's not the point. If everyone just tries to morph into "Mr Popular" then we LOSE OUR CHOICE.

Windows has their function, OSX another, Linux one as well. Asking one to change in order to turn into the other means you want FEWER choices.

potentia
November 14th, 2007, 10:58 PM
We can't know if Linux works for those people unless they try it themselves and then file bugs telling us what didn't work for them. Whining on the forums isn't going to do anything but make people dislike you.

See? People don't file issues here, and if you get 100 mio users then this system would collapse!

You have to be pro-active and ask people, new users, potential users.

You are stuck within your community world.

Nano Geek
November 14th, 2007, 10:59 PM
I never said that.

Linux should not listen to me but to all the people it would like to embrace. That actually does happen with OS X and Windows.Do Windows and OS X have websites where you can talk to developers? Do they have forums with over 400,000 members? Do Windows and OS X ask for ideas for future releases and look at them one by one? I think not. From what I've seen, Ubuntu listens to its users way more that Microsoft and Apple do.

potentia
November 14th, 2007, 11:00 PM
How would you loose choice? I see close to 100 distros, yet one of them fail to gain mass approval.

ONE of them could be different, could it not?

potentia
November 14th, 2007, 11:01 PM
Do Windows and OS X have websites where you can talk to developers? Do they have forums with over 400,000 members? Do Windows and OS X ask for ideas for future releases and look at them one by one? I think not. From what I've seen, Ubuntu listens to its users way more that Microsoft and Apple do.

You have 400.000 members here, but not professional software. GIMP still takes forever to add a few features, Pidgin too. These members do not add the expected value.

SomeGuyDude
November 14th, 2007, 11:02 PM
I never said that.

Linux should not listen to me but to all the people it would like to embrace. That actually does happen with OS X and Windows.

That's also because Apple and MS are profit-based businesses. The guys from Ubuntu sell t-shirts and mugs, but they aren't running a company here. It's a project.

As such, they don't want to "market" it to the maximum number of people, they want to pull the maximum number of people to the project. That's a BIG difference. The point is that they have an idea of the perfect OS and people agree or disagree and the creators simply try and make it the best they can.

Apple and MS don't run like that. They're out to make money and their goals aren't whether or not the product is optimal with any "real" basis, but what they think the most people will buy. Obviously most Linux distros know full well 99% of people will NEVER use it. Are they going to change? HELL NO, because they're making what THEY WANT. Remember, this is all FREE.

If next week, out of NOWHERE, suddenly 90% of computer users want a command-line style OS that requires the user to get into the nuts and bolts of it, you can bet your *** the next Windows and OSX platforms will conform.

You know who won't, though? Linux distros. The ones that appeal to the users' newfound desires will get a bunch of users, the rest will stay the same. That's how Linux works. The creators make what THEY think is the best OS and you can either take it or leave it.

Again, read my Ron Paul analogy.

Dimitriid
November 14th, 2007, 11:02 PM
I never said that.

Linux should not listen to me but to all the people it would like to embrace. That actually does happen with OS X and Windows.

You are wrong on both accounts:

1) How can you listen to people who, more often that not, have completely contradicting opinions and still satisfy them all? Decisions need to be made and the whole point of Linux is that you can branch whatever you want, even the Kernell itself, if you disagree. Many do, and realize its hard to get anywhere above the garage level on their distros and software. So unless you propose we somehow force many volunteers to follow the decisions that would make x persons happy its just not possible.

So thats 3 times ( I hope its a charm ): You can't have it both ways sometimes.

2) That actually certainly does NOT happen with OS X and Windows, in fact quite the opposite with windows Vista for example. OS X market is won with aesthetic choices, fashion and hype, features being a distant fourth. Microsoft has gotten and kept its dominance by brute force bullying almost every vendor into selling their OS and bullying whoever doesn't by locking everything to any outsider. Giving people what they want is not even close on their lists of priorities.

potentia
November 14th, 2007, 11:03 PM
And see, ANOTHER trend. I NEVER said "be more like Windows or OS X", just asked people to listen to potential users.

Then I get the "turn into Windows or OS X"

Relax man! Linux is open source and you have a billion distros. One of them could change without it would stab you in your back?

SomeGuyDude
November 14th, 2007, 11:05 PM
How would you loose choice? I see close to 100 distros, yet one of them fail to gain mass approval.

ONE of them could be different, could it not?

This is ridiculous because no one buys an OS-less computer and then installs one on their own. The reason, at this point, that Windows is huge is simply that Windows is huge. It's the Paris Hilton effect. That's also why Windows is far bigger than OSX: it's established.

Wal-Mart's Ubuntu PC sold like crazy. You can bet that as more and more PC's come pre-loaded with Linux it's going to get bigger. As long as Linux requires people to uninstall their OS, there's a huge roadblock.

The majority of computer users have NEVER reformatted a hard drive unless a virus destroyed it. How many do you think are comfortable enough to install a brand new OS, even if it WAS "perfect" in your mind?

potentia
November 14th, 2007, 11:05 PM
Well, then I leave it, as so many people do even before taking it.

SomeGuyDude
November 14th, 2007, 11:05 PM
And see, ANOTHER trend. I NEVER said "be more like Windows or OS X", just asked people to listen to potential users.

Then I get the "turn into Windows or OS X"

Relax man! Linux is open source and you have a billion distros. One of them could change without it would stab you in your back?

I stopped making that accusation on the last page. Stick with me here, man.

potentia
November 14th, 2007, 11:06 PM
This is ridiculous because no one buys an OS-less computer and then installs one on their own. The reason, at this point, that Windows is huge is simply that Windows is huge. It's the Paris Hilton effect. That's also why Windows is far bigger than OSX: it's established.

Wal-Mart's Ubuntu PC sold like crazy. You can bet that as more and more PC's come pre-loaded with Linux it's going to get bigger. As long as Linux requires people to uninstall their OS, there's a huge roadblock.

This is so naive. Victimized. People don't see the genius of Linux and the freedom. That is your opinion though. Lets see if the Dell offer will be an Ubuntu break through.........

Nano Geek
November 14th, 2007, 11:07 PM
You have 400.000 members here, but not professional software. GIMP still takes forever to add a few features, Pidgin too. These members do not add the expected value.Photoshop has been around about five years longer than the GIMP has, so it's obvious that it would not have as many features. And as an instant messenger, Pidgin is in no great rush to add video-chat to it's software.

But what does this have to do with fanboys and getting new users?

Dimitriid
November 14th, 2007, 11:07 PM
Microsoft does not listens to their users, they force them to accept whatever they want since they are literally stuck with the os whenever they buy a computer. And I can assure you they do not listen, Ive taken literally hundreds of calls from customers pissed off cursing at Vista demanding a supervisor that would give em a refund on their system or a copy of XP.

As for the apple users its clear that the users that get listened to are the poseur juppies buying whatever trend steve jobs sends their ways while they praise it like zombies on your nearest starbucks.

SomeGuyDude
November 14th, 2007, 11:08 PM
Also, your signature is driving me crazy.

"Be open to criticism. Don't let Linux / open source enthusiasm turn into fanaticism (excessive intolerance of opposing views). Let people prefer commercial software to your pet software. Respect pluralism."

You're conflating our enjoyment of Linux as it is with criticism of Windows or whatever. I don't give a fig what OS someone uses. If they try Linux out and dislike it, good for them. However, you're taking this and turning it inside out by then saying that we Linux users shouldn't want our OS to remain as it is, the way WE like it.

potentia
November 14th, 2007, 11:08 PM
I stopped making that accusation on the last page. Stick with me here, man.

I have 100 replies on one page here. You made the accusation somewhere.

p_quarles
November 14th, 2007, 11:08 PM
Wal-Mart's Ubuntu PC sold like crazy. You can bet that as more and more PC's come pre-loaded with Linux it's going to get bigger. As long as Linux requires people to uninstall their OS, there's a huge roadblock.
Yeah, that was a huge success. It was really interesting reading the user reviews on Wal-Mart's web site, too. One guy bought one for his elderly grandmother, didn't realize it ran Linux until he started setting it up, and thought he would have to return it at that point. After playing with it for a bit, he realized it was perfect for his grandmother's needs, and said that it made him consider running Linux himself.

SomeGuyDude
November 14th, 2007, 11:09 PM
This is so naive. Victimized. People don't see the genius of Linux and the freedom. That is your opinion though. Lets see if the Dell offer will be an Ubuntu break through.........

What? You're not even saying anything. Are you honestly denying the fact that Windows comes pre-loaded is a factor?

Do you REALLY think that if every PC came with Ubuntu, and that every University had a "Linux Standard" with software in the classroom, that 75% of them would uninstall it and put Windows on because it's "better"?

Do you ACTUALLY believe that?

Dimitriid
November 14th, 2007, 11:11 PM
This is so naive. Victimized. People don't see the genius of Linux and the freedom. That is your opinion though. Lets see if the Dell offer will be an Ubuntu break through.........

I don't know why would you think you can get away with such statement and still call him naive. Please let us know when said breakthrough happens, im sure its any minute now!

potentia
November 14th, 2007, 11:11 PM
Just wait until they buy a new printer or a WIRELESS USB network card...

Some here had major troubles with drivers for their DELL pc when they upgraded to Gusty. Same problems I had. No internet. If they see this upgrade button every 6 months and they get the problems I had yes.

And yes, I think real computer users, not a "grandmom" will notice the total lack of pro software for Linux. Or wonder why they have to upgrade their OS to get a slightly new version of their software.

aysiu
November 14th, 2007, 11:15 PM
Don't forget that Dell doesn't have television or print advertisements for Ubuntu computers, has only two models available, and constantly advertises (even on the Ubuntu computer pages) that it "recommends Windows Vista."

There's no way anyone would stumble upon the Dellbuntu computers. They'd have to go out of their way to find those models.

SomeGuyDude
November 14th, 2007, 11:15 PM
Just wait until they buy a new printer or a WIRELESS USB network card...

Some here had major troubles with drivers for their DELL pc when they upgraded to Gusty. Same problems I had. No internet. If they see this upgrade button every 6 months and they get the problems I had yes.

And yes, I think real computer users, not a "grandmom" will notice the total lack of pro software for Linux.

A few things.

1) Ubuntu != Linux as a whole. Not every distro has that many upgrades. This one does, but we all seem to think that's fine.

2) I have an HP and had both internet and printer usage immediately. That includes spending about 2 minutes to use a printer over a wireless network. My main printer is via USB and after plugging it in I swiftly got a little popup that said "Hey you have an HP F4140 Deskjet!"

3) Ever tried to get a Vista computer to share files over a network with an XP one? Boy THAT's fun. And that's, ostensibly, the SAME DAMN OS.

4) It's OPEN SOURCE. If Ubuntu had Microsoft or Apple's budget, I have a sneaking suspicion that there would be FAR fewer compatibility or stability issues. The fact that a 100% free OS works even THIS well is nothing short of a miracle.

5) Again, it's FREE. Quit your bitching and be happy that there is a free OS that works even adequately, let alone the phenomenal experience many have had with whatever Linux flavor they use.

popch
November 14th, 2007, 11:15 PM
real computer users, not a "grandmom" will notice the total lack of pro software for Linux. Or wonder why they have to upgrade their OS to get a slightly new version of their software.


Depends a bit on your definition of 'real computer user' and 'pro software'. Would you care to elaborate?

And then, I wonder what makes you say anyone had to upgrade their OS.

p_quarles
November 14th, 2007, 11:16 PM
And yes, I think real computer users, not a "grandmom" will notice the total lack of pro software for Linux.
Grandmothers are real computer users, imho. In any case, I'm a fairly serious computer user, and haven't noticed a lack of applications that fit my needs in a way that's more than adequate. Again, I think this depends on the user and what he/she does, and can't really be measured apart from specific cases.

P.S.: This seems to be getting awfully heated. Can everyone just take a deep breath before posting? :)

aysiu
November 14th, 2007, 11:18 PM
My wife upgraded from Panther to Tiger and was almost in tears over the printer problems she had as a result. Does that mean OS X isn't ready for "real computer users"?

Upgrades always have the potential to cause problems.

For those who do not like to troubleshoot, I would recommend upgrading from LTS to LTS or waiting at least two months after a release to upgrade.

The fact is that most "unreal" computer users I know never upgrade software and only upgrade operating system versions when they feel their old version is "too slow" (i.e., Windows 98). And even then they "upgrade" by just buying a new computer.

potentia
November 14th, 2007, 11:20 PM
You will not be offered GIMP 2.4.1 in Feisty from the repos, will you? They you have to find a DEB from somewhere... and it certainly won't be from the GIMP website or Pidgin for that matter.

A gradmom will not install software and probably not install hardware either. A heck of a lot of people will.

If these people are students that get a licence for some software to go with Word or research.... it won't run on Linux. They will notice. We used a lot at my university (and it was not MS software!).

Tax software... something wonderful not made for Linux. It wont run. People will notice.

Dimitriid
November 14th, 2007, 11:22 PM
Im a real computer user and I don't have to do any such things, in fact the only thing I need to do to use the newest or the most reasonable stable versions of software its:


su -c "pacman -Syu"

Now can we please establish the fact that we are talking Linux in general and that for every shortcoming on Ubuntu ( or Dell ) there is probably an alternative, a working alternative?

Im also a professional working on the IT field and I do not need ANY tools to troubleshoot hardware problems which is what I get paid for. Im pretty sure most Doctors, Lawyers, Engineers and so forth do not forget 5 years of studies whenever they don't have access to a computer. I even know people who can code with a pencil and a paper and are quite proficient let me tell you.

Photoshop users in fact are the only group of self proclaimed pseudo-professionals that constantly whine about their little tool. Meanwhile I also know many people capable of producing and manipulating images with little more than pencil and paper. I guess I should tell em they are not professionals since they aren't using photoshop, how dare they!

SomeGuyDude
November 14th, 2007, 11:22 PM
The fact is that most "unreal" computer users I know never upgrade software and only upgrade operating system versions when they feel their old version is "too slow" (i.e., Windows 98). And even then they "upgrade" by just buying a new computer.

Yep. Most still use WinXP that I know, quite a few are still on Win2K. If the complaint that upgrading causes problems means OS's aren't ready for prime time was true, explain friggin' VISTA. And you know what? I like Vista and have never said otherwise. But it's had just as many (if not more, relatively speaking) than the Feisty -> Gutsy upgrade.

Around here, how many Feisty users are there? I think there are some Edgy and Dapper folks slinking around, too. It's not like updates are mandatory.

potentia
November 14th, 2007, 11:23 PM
My wife upgraded from Panther to Tiger and was almost in tears over the printer problems she had as a result. Does that mean OS X isn't ready for "real computer users"?

Its Unix under the helmet, right? ;)

In theory, yes. Apple have ruined their good name in my country with components of lousy quality and lousy support. So, my conclusion, they failed as well. But I can only imagine that they will act when they see the bad publicity in they newspapers. They too are up against MS with a tiny market share.

aysiu
November 14th, 2007, 11:23 PM
And my parents-in-law noticed when mlxchange.com and their Canon printer didn't work in Mac OS X. So what?

The only point here is that Windows is the dominant OS and thus gets a lot of third-party support (drivers supplied by hardware manufacturers and a lot of native commercial software). So what?

Nano Geek
November 14th, 2007, 11:24 PM
You will not be offered GIMP 2.4.1 in Feisty from the repos, will you? They you have to find a DEB from somewhere... and it certainly won't be from the GIMP website or Pidgin for that matter.

A gradmom will not install software and probably not install hardware either. A heck of a lot of people will.

If these people are students that get a licence for some software to go with Word or research.... it won't run on Linux. They will notice. We used a lot at my university (and it was not MS software!).

Tax software... something wonderful not made for Linux. It wont run. People will notice.So your argument is basically that, since it is not in every way better than Windows, it is just about unusable for every computer user?

SomeGuyDude
November 14th, 2007, 11:24 PM
You will not be offered GIMP 2.4.1 in Feisty from the repos, will you? They you have to find a DEB from somewhere... and it certainly won't be from the GIMP website or Pidgin for that matter.

A gradmom will not install software and probably not install hardware either. A heck of a lot of people will.

If these people are students that get a licence for some software to go with Word or research.... it won't run on Linux. They will notice. We used a lot at my university (and it was not MS software!).

Tax software... something wonderful not made for Linux. It wont run. People will notice.

Okay so NOW you're saying that because software made for Windows doesn't work with Linux, it's Linux's fault? That EXACT argument could be used against... OSX for example. Some Apple user gets an MS Office CD at the school's repository and it won't work. Does that mean OSX is bad?

My friend, if your politics are anything like your debating skills here, you need to do some more research on things. I'm going to the gym, hopefully you'll have stepped back a bit by the time I come back.

potentia
November 14th, 2007, 11:26 PM
Photoshop users in fact are the only group of self proclaimed pseudo-professionals that constantly whine about their little tool. Meanwhile I also know many people capable of producing and manipulating images with little more than pencil and paper. I guess I should tell em they are not professionals since they aren't using photoshop, how dare they!

This part is just pathetic.

For your knowledge, some work exclusively in 16-bit mode using RGB, CMYK and LAB mode. (Sometimes even in 32 bit mode) using the many layer modes. The same is impossible in GIMP, and the things that can be done takes forever using GIMP features.

But hey, here we are: your reaction was exactly as I am used to.

aysiu
November 14th, 2007, 11:27 PM
But hey, here we are: your reaction was exactly as I am used to. Your reaction is also what I'm used to. Go figure.

potentia
November 14th, 2007, 11:29 PM
Okay so NOW you're saying that because software made for Windows doesn't work with Linux, it's Linux's fault? That EXACT argument could be used against... OSX for example. Some Apple user gets an MS Office CD at the school's repository and it won't work. Does that mean OSX is bad?

Reseach? Of course I know this, so:

I did not say that is is Linux fault, but it is the dilemma here! People DO NOT NEED LINUX because they will be CUT OFF from all the Windows software that whey want or need. Thats is why Linux is not just preinstalled on computers.

That is why I never wanted OS X allthough I was tempted.

Multiple OS'es is actually not all that good from an end user point of view.

xArv3nx
November 14th, 2007, 11:31 PM
Why isn't this thread closed yet? *scratches chin*

Dimitriid
November 14th, 2007, 11:32 PM
This part is just pathetic.

For your knowledge, some work exclusively in 16-bit mode using RGB, CMYK and LAB mode. (Sometimes even in 32 bit mode) using the many layer modes. The same is impossible in GIMP, and the things that can be done takes forever using GIMP features.

But hey, here we are: your reaction was exactly as I am used to.

So they HAVE to work on those modes? I guess we only need 1 image editing application. Hell why stop there, why do we need all these silly programing languages? Lets just all learn visual basic .net and call it a day.

Im glad photoshop has more features than gimp. I really am. Just don't expect me to ever consider you a professional if you cant do without em.

potentia
November 14th, 2007, 11:32 PM
Why should it be? Afraid of a debate? Harms the community?

Dimitriid
November 14th, 2007, 11:33 PM
Why isn't this thread closed yet? *scratches chin*

Its on recurring discussions now in case you havent noticed so its close enough to being closed.

panaretos22
November 14th, 2007, 11:33 PM
propably mate the success of ubuntu makes your self to think bad things...go and make a cofee to wake up...Ubuntu community is the best i am very new and my problems solved within 1 hour ..i am very happy to be here

popch
November 14th, 2007, 11:33 PM
Photoshop users in fact are the only group of self proclaimed pseudo-professionals that constantly whine about their little tool.

LOL

(a) It's not true. When you really want to know, you can see about then same number of MS Office users claiming the same. Other products also are mentioned quite frequently, although I can not recall them at the moment.

(b) Some computer users do live from the work they do. Some of that work involves using Photoshop (or other computer programs). While it is perfectly possible that other programs can be 'just as good', it is also perfectly irrelevant. A 'true' professional will be able to judge if learning to use another tool which is 'just as good' as the one he now uses unthinkingly, with great speed and effect is worth the effort. Besides, what's the point of the Gimp being free when he already has spent all that money on Photoshop? And when the cost of the software is negligible in comparison to all other production costs?

(c) I find your term 'proclaimed pseudo-professionals' offensive. If it matters at all, I do not use Photoshop. I have other favorite tools which I will not lightly abandon.

potentia
November 14th, 2007, 11:34 PM
So they HAVE to work on those modes? I guess we only need 1 image editing application. Hell why stop there, why do we need all these silly programing languages? Lets just all learn visual basic .net and call it a day.

Im glad photoshop has more features than gimp. I really am. Just don't expect me to ever consider you a professional if you cant do without em.

They HAVE to, yes. But you wouldn't know, and why would I ever need your opinion about whether or not I or someone else is a professional.

xArv3nx
November 14th, 2007, 11:35 PM
Why should it be?
Apparently, I was "trolling".

Other than that, I have no idea. I don't even think I was trolling.

p_quarles
November 14th, 2007, 11:37 PM
Multiple OS'es is actually not all that good from an end user point of view.
Got to disagree on that point. Competition and necessity are the two main things that drive innovation. Competition between the OSes has resulted in improvements for all of them.

Of course, a lack of interoperability is bad for the end user. I have to say, though, that I think this is where GNU/Linux gets it unequivocally right: the lack of interoperability today is a direct result of closed specs on things like printers, video cards, office documents, and server protocols (i.e., Exchange server). Open replacements for these things are a boon for all computer users, regardless of which OS they're using.

potentia
November 14th, 2007, 11:37 PM
Democracy wouldn't be possible if it had to live with these rules about trolling.

But, hey. Look at post #1 and then you have the answer to the question asked.

potentia
November 14th, 2007, 11:40 PM
Got to disagree on that point. Competition and necessity are the two main things that drive innovation. Competition between the OSes has resulted in improvements for all of them.


Thats true. OpenOffice probably won't change much but it certainly motivated MS to improve MS Office 2007. (I know that is not OS related, just an example).

But still, it is not fun for developers to make cross-platform software (actually most don't), and it is not fun to be cut off from great software. An OS is not stronger than the sum of software made for it.

potentia
November 14th, 2007, 11:43 PM
Ah, so the thread was moved. Pathetic.

popch
November 14th, 2007, 11:45 PM
it is not fun for developers to make cross-platform software (actually most don't), and it is not fun to be cut off from great software..

There's more of cross-platform software than you may realise. Besides the obvious candidates (i.e. software written in portable languages) there's a growing number of software which is used over the web which renders our precious computers into mere rendering devices.

As someone already has mentioned: the network is the computer. Even the latest cheapo computer from Walmart wants a network for best computing experience.

xArv3nx
November 14th, 2007, 11:45 PM
Ah, so the thread was moved. Pathetic.
Calm down, bovice. o_o

Dimitriid
November 14th, 2007, 11:47 PM
LOL

(a) It's not true. When you really want to know, you can see about then same number of MS Office users claiming the same. Other products also are mentioned quite frequently, although I can not recall them at the moment.

(b) Some computer users do live from the work they do. Some of that work involves using Photoshop (or other computer programs). While it is perfectly possible that other programs can be 'just as good', it is also perfectly irrelevant. A 'true' professional will be able to judge if learning to use another tool which is 'just as good' as the one he now uses unthinkingly, with great speed and effect is worth the effort. Besides, what's the point of the Gimp being free when he already has spent all that money on Photoshop? And when the cost of the software is negligible in comparison to all other production costs?

(c) I find your term 'proclaimed pseudo-professionals' offensive. If it matters at all, I do not use Photoshop. I have other favorite tools which I will not lightly abandon.

a) Well I mean they whine if they dont have Photoshop, not about it.

b) I am not able to not use anything other than Windows XP embedded and Microsoft Internet Explorer as the tools the company requires me to troubleshoot and document on a daily basis. Unlike photoshop employee's I am expected to adapt to whatever the situation is, which includes internet explorer, citrix, even the proxy connection being down altogether and keep helping customers even with nothing but a way to talk to them.

As for the point of spending money on photoshop I dont remember it being as cheap as you mention but in any case employees are never making management decisions so I do not see how it applies. Industry standards to me are nothing but a worthless lock in mechanism so other industries, like the IT industry, get their money unconditionally. I do not expect managements to ever change, however I do expect employers to know a little better than that. And I don't see why all other professionals not only know but are expected to know, except photoshop users.

With that narrow minded thinking there wouldn't be any jobs left for people developing and supporting Linux, and if they are already in decline I don't think its looking good so you might wanna reconsider your entire paradigms about what being a professional means.

p_quarles
November 14th, 2007, 11:49 PM
There's more of cross-platform software than you may realise. Besides the obvious candidates (i.e. software written in portable languages) there's a growing number of software which is used over the web which renders our precious computers into mere rendering devices.

As someone already has mentioned: the network is the computer. Even the latest cheapo computer from Walmart wants a network for best computing experience.
Yeah, good point. It's actually online apps that are the current threat to Microsoft's dominance. Google, obviously, but I also remember reading an announcement recently that said Adobe is attempting to port it's entire CS to an online application. These are very long-term plans, so it's hard to know if it'll ever happen, but the online application seems to be a huge trend right now.

Dimitriid
November 14th, 2007, 11:51 PM
They HAVE to, yes. But you wouldn't know, and why would I ever need your opinion about whether or not I or someone else is a professional.

Refer to the "industry standards" comment on my previous post please, thank you.

potentia
November 14th, 2007, 11:51 PM
Calm down, bovice. o_o

I am calm. I just think this removal of threads with a little criticisms and debate is pathetic. It is, actually, enough for me to abandon Linux. A nice short adventure, but I have had enough. People act like members of a cult.

Anyway, I need the disk space for data. Ciao, Linux.

potentia
November 14th, 2007, 11:53 PM
Refer to the "industry standards" comment on my previous post please, thank you.

LAB mode is not an industry standard, is it? 16 bit isn't, is it? CMYK is what publishers use, so that is what you need.

Period. Goodbye.

Dimitriid
November 14th, 2007, 11:54 PM
Deleting of threads or locking of threads you'd ve right. But this IS a thread touching mostly on recurring topics.

p_quarles
November 14th, 2007, 11:54 PM
I am calm. I just think this removal of threads with a little criticisms and debate is pathetic. It is, actually, enough for me to abandon Linux. A nice short adventure, but I have had enough. People act like members of a cult.

Anyway, I need the disk space for data. Ciao, Linux.
You're possibly misunderstanding why it was moved (not removed). This is, in fact, a recurring discussion around here. That doesn't make it a bad thing, it's just that not everyone in the Cafe is interested in seeing the same issues being brought up over and over. So, as a compromise, the admins created a separate space for these topics.

Dimitriid
November 14th, 2007, 11:57 PM
CMYK is what publishers use, so that is what you need.

Windows is what 99% of the people uses, so thats what you need. I guess you are going back to windows, too bad you didn't had a nice Linux trip.

potentia
November 14th, 2007, 11:58 PM
You're possibly misunderstanding why it was moved (not removed). This is, in fact, a recurring discussion around here. That doesn't make it a bad thing, it's just that not everyone in the Cafe is interested in seeing the same issues being brought up over and over. So, as a compromise, the admins created a separate space for these topics.

If it is a recurring discussion (about the community) then it is just even more relevant. It is in fact moved to somewhere where it will never be found. A room for heated discussions that is not hidden like that would be more suitable. But thats not relevant for me. Linux is in my past.

popch
November 15th, 2007, 12:02 AM
Unlike photoshop employee's I am expected to adapt to whatever the situation is, which includes internet explorer, citrix, even the proxy connection being down altogether and keep helping customers even with nothing but a way to talk to them.

As for the point of spending money on photoshop I dont remember it being as cheap as you mention but in any case employees are never making management decisions so I do not see how it applies.

Couple of misunderstandings:

Nowehere did I imply that Photoshop was cheap. If it was, I would have it even when I am only an amateur.

Also, I did not in particular speak about employees or other people not involved in the choice of tools. As a matter of fact, I was thinking of photographers I personally know and who are very professional indeed. Some of them earn their living as freelancers, others are employed but have their pick of tools.

And I can assure you, in comparison to the hardware a photographer needs to have in order to produce decent works the price for a mac or two including photoshop is nearly negligible.

p_quarles
November 15th, 2007, 12:04 AM
As was already mentioned, threads that say new things or offer useful solutions are never moved or locked, and are genuinely appreciated by most people here. This thread has mostly just rehashed an old back-and-forth ("Linux users are fanatics," "No we're not"). For those who think this is a relevant debate, there's always Slashdot.

Anyway, bye.

Dimitriid
November 15th, 2007, 12:20 AM
Couple of misunderstandings:

Nowehere did I imply that Photoshop was cheap. If it was, I would have it even when I am only an amateur.

Also, I did not in particular speak about employees or other people not involved in the choice of tools. As a matter of fact, I was thinking of photographers I personally know and who are very professional indeed. Some of them earn their living as freelancers, others are employed but have their pick of tools.

And I can assure you, in comparison to the hardware a photographer needs to have in order to produce decent works the price for a mac or two including photoshop is nearly negligible.

I seen artists produce very good work with very bad tools. In fact one of my favorite directors, David Lynch, made his latest film entirely with low quality digital videocams. And you will notice it, but this was an aesthetic choice as well as a technical and production related one.

Thats is my point really, man are supposed to control their tools, not the other way around, which is what companies like Adobe and Microsoft want to make profits but what would ( imho ) eventually kill all creativity and innovation.

keyboardashtray
November 15th, 2007, 01:54 AM
My only complaint with the extremely helpful Ubuntu community is that vague one-line complaints with a controversial title get 13 pages of replies while well-thought out rants with major specific concerns hardly get one.

popch
November 15th, 2007, 07:43 AM
I seen artists produce very good work with very bad tools. In fact one of my favorite directors, David Lynch, made his latest film entirely with low quality digital videocams. And you will notice it, but this was an aesthetic choice as well as a technical and production related one.

Thats is my point really, man are supposed to control their tools, not the other way around, which is what companies like Adobe and Microsoft want to make profits but what would ( imho ) eventually kill all creativity and innovation.

When man is supposed to control his tools, then he obviously is entitled to choose photoshop over paint when it - in his assessment - is the tool fitter for the task.

I do not think that you want to imply that all true artists select inferior quality of their products for esthetic reasons.

SomeGuyDude
November 15th, 2007, 07:46 AM
My only complaint with the extremely helpful Ubuntu community is that vague one-line complaints with a controversial title get 13 pages of replies while well-thought out rants with major specific concerns hardly get one.

True. But then, it's probably because this is a message board and succumbs to the same faults as any other.

An inflammatory title gets people interested, a one-line complaint is easy to respond to.

I once read a joke somewhere that the easiest way to get help with Linux is to say on a message board or in a chat room "LINUX SUCKS I CAN DO [WHATEVER] SO MUCH EASIER WITH WINDOWS."

Mellowdrone
November 15th, 2007, 08:03 AM
I once read a joke somewhere that the easiest way to get help with Linux is to say on a message board or in a chat room "LINUX SUCKS I CAN DO [WHATEVER] SO MUCH EASIER WITH WINDOWS."

Make no mistake, this isn't a joke - unless, what you've said was a joke, and if that's the case I hereby retract what I've stated here.

Dimitriid
November 15th, 2007, 08:05 AM
When man is supposed to control his tools, then he obviously is entitled to choose photoshop over paint when it - in his assessment - is the tool fitter for the task.

I do not think that you want to imply that all true artists select inferior quality of their products for esthetic reasons.

Absolutely not of course. I don't have a problem with choice, I have a problem with dependency, I hope that clears it out a bit more.