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dgeorge
November 11th, 2007, 08:10 PM
Hello all,
Just wondering if pyphon // zope // plone is worth learning or are these behind the times.

Where is the future of web development?

Kadrus
November 11th, 2007, 09:06 PM
Hello all,
Just wondering if pyphon // zope // plone is worth learning or are these behind the times.

Where is the future of web development?

I think Zope is worth learning..

dgeorge
November 11th, 2007, 09:19 PM
I think Zope is worth learning..

It took me 4 hours last night to install zope / plone / and pyhon on my linux box.

I really don't know much about it but I am just trying to see what professionals are using to develop there web apps and website designs.

Other options:

php // mysql // dreamweaver // php powered cms (what ever that may be)

What are web designers out there today using to develop there web apps and site designs?

Kadrus
November 11th, 2007, 09:25 PM
It took me 4 hours last night to install zope / plone / and pyhon on my linux box.

I really don't know much about it but I am just trying to see what professionals are using to develop there web apps and website designs.

Other options:

php // mysql // dreamweaver // php powered cms (what ever that may be)

What are web designers out there today using to develop there web apps and site designs?

You said it ..PHP..MySql....ASP...
PHP AND ASP are used a lot for databases and content management systems..so use them if you want to develop CMS..
and Ajax is being used a lot now a days..and of course you can't develop a website without JavaScript....
Euuh..I don't know about DreamWeaver on Linux...but it is used by a lot Windows users..it is a very good HTML software/editor indeed..

dgeorge
November 11th, 2007, 09:43 PM
You said it ..PHP..MySql....ASP...
PHP AND ASP are used a lot for databases and content management systems..so use them if you want to develop CMS..
and Ajax is being used a lot now a days..and of course you can't develop a website without JavaScript....
Euuh..I don't know about DreamWeaver on Linux...but it is used by a lot Windows users..it is a very good HTML software/editor indeed..

I have general knowledge about php // mysql // asp // ajax // and javascript.

I really liked the way plone made everything so easy but does it really have the control to allow programmers to make custom templetes or do all plone websites look like plone.org

I really want to get into to web development again but just trying to find the best track to follow and what languages to focus on.

Any more suggestions?

pmasiar
November 11th, 2007, 09:46 PM
Python with Django/Turbogears/Pylons, or Ruby On Rails is the future.

PHP is a mess, and ASP is worse.

"Convention instead of configuration" simplifies design substantially.

Kadrus
November 11th, 2007, 09:51 PM
I have general knowledge about php // mysql // asp // ajax // and javascript.

I really liked the way plone made everything so easy but does it really have the control to allow programmers to make custom templetes or do all plone websites look like plone.org

I really want to get into to web development again but just trying to find the best track to follow and what languages to focus on.

Any more suggestions?

mm...It depends on what kind of Web Site you want to develop..if you want an attractive design..I really suggest Using Flash..as it makes the site looks great and attractive..and if you want to create a website based to databases and records and CMS..I suggest PHP..
But I really can't tell you what web developers are most using these days..that's how much I know..

Kadrus
November 11th, 2007, 09:55 PM
Python with Django/Turbogears/Pylons, or Ruby On Rails is the future.

PHP is a mess, and ASP is worse.

"Convention instead of configuration" simplifies design substantially.

Or follow his advice..he seems to know more :p..lol

LaRoza
November 11th, 2007, 10:56 PM
PHP is a mess, and ASP is worse.


You know how I feel about that.

There is nothing wrong with PHP the language, except the cluttered global namespace. It is easy to misuse though, but some developers can write clean code with it.

dgeorge
November 11th, 2007, 10:57 PM
pmasiar ,

what do you think of zope and plone?

mkoehler
November 11th, 2007, 11:16 PM
George,

Pyphon, zope, and plone are all outdated. In today's world, you're best off focusing on some of the aforementioned languages, including PHP/MySQL (cross-OS), ASP[.NET]/Access (windows), AJAX/Javascript (cross-OS), Flash (cross-OS, but I don't recommend it), or Ruby on Rails. I use all of the aforementioned on a daily basis (with the exception of Ruby on Rails), but I have heard a lot of positive discussion regarding the latter. If you are interested in writing CGI applications, you should look into learning PERL, however, like pyphon, zope, and plone, I wouldn't recommend utilizing your time to learn them.

Cheers!

LaRoza
November 11th, 2007, 11:28 PM
George,

In today's world, you're best off focusing on some of the aforementioned languages, including PHP/MySQL (cross-OS), ASP[.NET]/Access (windows), AJAX/Javascript (cross-OS), Flash (cross-OS, but I don't recommend it), or Ruby on Rails.

If you are interested in writing CGI applications, you should look into learning PERL, however, like pyphon, zope, and plone, I wouldn't recommend utilizing your time to learn them.

Cheers!

Those languages aren't used for all the same purpose, PHP, ASP, Ajax, Flash, and Ruby are quite a mix. I don't know what pyphone is, except a mispelling of Python. (Not an insult, many (all) python libraries seem to start with py*) Python is much better than PHP (although it hurts to say).

ASP, PHP, Python, Ruby are all used for server side programming. Actually, and language can be used for that. Flash is for client side, as is Ajax (sort of). Ajax needs a backend to work, and it is not a language.

CGI is very outdated, scripts with PHP, Perl, Python, and others using certain modules are better and faster. CGI scripts can be written in any language, even non scripting languages.

dgeorge
November 11th, 2007, 11:29 PM
George,

Pyphon, zope, and plone are all outdated. In today's world, you're best off focusing on some of the aforementioned languages, including PHP/MySQL (cross-OS), ASP[.NET]/Access (windows), AJAX/Javascript (cross-OS), Flash (cross-OS, but I don't recommend it), or Ruby on Rails. I use all of the aforementioned on a daily basis (with the exception of Ruby on Rails), but I have heard a lot of positive discussion regarding the latter. If you are interested in writing CGI applications, you should look into learning PERL, however, like pyphon, zope, and plone, I wouldn't recommend utilizing your time to learn them.

Cheers!

Very interesting post there mkoehler. Thanks for the information.

So is the conclusion that if you are going to be designing websites over the next few years we should use the following:

PHP/MYSQL for server side scripting and database
CSS for site formatting
Flash to make it look even better
XHTML
HTML - basic markup language

What do you guys think?
Please make your own list of where you think the future of web development is going.

thanks

LaRoza
November 11th, 2007, 11:42 PM
Very interesting post there mkoehler. Thanks for the information.

So is the conclusion that if you are going to be designing websites over the next few years we should use the following:

PHP/MYSQL for server side scripting and database
CSS for site formatting
Flash to make it look even better
XHTML
HTML - basic markup language

What do you guys think?
Please make your own list of where you think the future of web development is going.

thanks

The post you reference doesn't make much sense.

Python seems to have the edge for sever side scripts, although PHP is more widely used. Ruby also has its niche.

XHTML + CSS is the basic code of a page, along with ECMAScript.

Ajax is very useful, but I foresee its coming popularity a trouble. Now people will feel compelled to use it, even when it is not needed. Ajax is just a way of using JavaScript, not a new language.

Flash is overused. It should only be used when it is needed. People seem to overuse good things. www.useit.com is a very good site for learning the best ways to make sites useable.

My site, http://laroza.freehostia.com/home, used PHP, XHTML, CSS and ECMAScript. The page gracefuly degrades, and is quite useable. Joining the "myspace" crowd and overloading it with images/flash/scripts would hurt it severely.

There is one rule of www.useit.com that I violate, that is the fact that home links are hot, however, they are clearly marked as the current page so I don't see why anyone would click on it.

wolfbone
November 12th, 2007, 12:14 AM
Flash to make it look even better

I recently sent a longish email to a new restaurant in town to complain about its shoddy website after it crashed my browser. The idiot designers hired by the restaurant manager had used Flash all over the site - even for navigation menu bars. It didn't look any better than similar, CSS etc. based sites but was riddled with accessibility issues and standards compliance errors.

mkoehler
November 12th, 2007, 01:35 AM
George,

Pyphon, zope, and plone are all outdated. In today's world, you're best off focusing on some of the aforementioned languages, including PHP/MySQL (cross-OS), ASP[.NET]/Access (windows), AJAX/Javascript (cross-OS), Flash (cross-OS, but I don't recommend it), or Ruby on Rails. I use all of the aforementioned on a daily basis (with the exception of Ruby on Rails), but I have heard a lot of positive discussion regarding the latter. If you are interested in writing CGI applications, you should look into learning PERL, however, like pyphon, zope, and plone, I wouldn't recommend utilizing your time to learn them.

Cheers!

I'm not quite sure where you don't 'understand' this post. I am not saying that you should learn all of the languages I mentioned, rather, you should focus on a specific set of them. As I mentioned, Flash is not very useful, as it increases the loading time of a webpage exponentially and requires an external player in order to work correctly. Likewise, AJAX, as another user posted, relies on javascript in order to work (It must be noted that most popups are written with javascript, so some people elect to disable javascript as a way to block popups - Therefore, javascript will not work on some people's machines, AJAX included). While it is possible to write web applications wholly in AJAX, it is usually implemented in small-scale functions. Furthermore, people oftentimes use ASP in conjunction Access databases for the job of creating the server-side scripting. Likewise, people often use PHP in conjunction with MySQL databases to create the web applications (server-side scripting). In the end, server-side and client-side scripting just enhances the website by providing the possibility to create dynamic content, but websites are based upon HTML and CSS. I do not have any knowledge of Perl or Ruby, so I cannot comment on them, but in my opinion, if you wanted to make a dynamic website, I would suggest that you utilize PHP (with MySQL) for the dynamic (server-side) content, some variation of javascript for the client-side dynamic content, and CSS and HTML for the static content.

Cheers!

mkoehler
November 12th, 2007, 01:50 AM
Note: When I state HTML, I am inferring XHTML, the more recent standard.

kknd
November 12th, 2007, 02:20 AM
Lua and Python!

dgeorge
November 12th, 2007, 02:32 AM
I recently sent a longish email to a new restaurant in town to complain about its shoddy website after it crashed my browser. The idiot designers hired by the restaurant manager had used Flash all over the site - even for navigation menu bars. It didn't look any better than similar, CSS etc. based sites but was riddled with accessibility issues and standards compliance errors.

Wolfbone, I totally agree with your post in regards to flash slowing down and even crashing browsers at times. It might make the site look good when used correctly but as a major design method I would have to say I would never use flash.

I would say that the following is my choice for web development:

CSS
XHTML
PHP
MYSQL

Please correct me if these are not the standard these days.

The reason I started this discussion is to find out if there is anything out there now that I might be missing.
Should we stick with the four methods listed above for web development or are the other elements that are out there currently (zope, plone , pyhon.. others)
that are gaining in popularity

I can't really comment on javascript because I just haven't used it enough to have a good understanding.

If there were to be a standard web development method what would it be?

Cheers

evymetal
November 12th, 2007, 02:38 AM
Well I am going to have to stand up in favour of plone/zope (although I've not written for plone personally). It's what we use at work for a CMS and it does very nearly everything we ever need simply and without having to understand huge amounts (although the learning curve gets steep if you want to know the advanced things). If you want to check out some examples of plone/zope sites (these are all the company's websites):

www.delib.co.uk
www.rubberductions.com
www.rubberrepublic.com

As I said, I'm not developing in zope or plone myself (although I am used to modifying it, and it's fairly easy to get the hang of), I focus on the backend python/perl/SQL/C etc - but 99.5% of the company's design work is done with plone/zope, and it's easy to extend with python.

As far as I know plone 3 includes loads of new AJAX features, which are quite easy to write. Obviously as I backend programmer I prefer to have complete control over what my code generates, but for Rapid Application development Zope seems great.

dgeorge
November 12th, 2007, 02:38 AM
Lua and Python!

Kknd, thanks for joining into the discussion.

What are the benfits of using Lua and Python?

I would love to learn more about their place in web development

Cheers

pmasiar
November 12th, 2007, 03:48 AM
George,

Pyphon, zope, and plone are all outdated. In today's world, you're best off focusing on some of the aforementioned languages, including PHP/MySQL (cross-OS), ASP[.NET]/Access (windows), AJAX/Javascript (cross-OS), Flash (cross-OS, but I don't recommend it), or Ruby on Rails. I use all of the aforementioned on a daily basis (with the exception of Ruby on Rails), but I have heard a lot of positive discussion regarding the latter. If you are interested in writing CGI applications, you should look into learning PERL, however, like pyphon, zope, and plone, I wouldn't recommend utilizing your time to learn them.

In opinion of many, it is ASP and PHP (and Perl) what is outdated. (BTW writing PERL just proves you don't get it - it is common test, and you failed). New cool kid is Ruby (on Rails), which you don't use, and Python grown recently (last 2 years) couple Rail-like web app frameworks, Django and TurboGears. Either Django, TG, or RoR are rather different approach ro web application, compared to PHP or ASP. More organized, in Model-View-Controller design pattern (see wikipedia).

Python is interesting in that it is widely used beyond web apps. It can replace bash, Perl for text parsing and manipulation, and C for numeric calculation if you can suffer 50% performance hit, which most common apps easily can.

So if you want **modern** way of web apps, certainly avoid ASP and PHP, and go RoR, or even better, Python/Django or TG.

Of course, you still use HTML for page markup and CSS for design, and AJAX for dynamic functionality - this all is client-side. But I don't see reason to start new project in technologies becoming obsolete, like Perl, and also ASP, PHP.

To get feel what **modern** rapid web app development means, install TG and make your own wiki within hour, including installation and reading. Skilled TG expert can demonstrate TG wiki in 20 minutes, including all typing and edits, they have screencast for it. **Rapid** means skeleton app is up and running within days.

dgeorge
November 12th, 2007, 04:03 AM
To get feel what **modern** rapid web app development means, install TG and make your own wiki within hour, including installation and reading. Skilled TG expert can demonstrate TG wiki in 20 minutes, including all typing and edits, they have screencast for it. **Rapid** means skeleton app is up and running within days.

Another interesting post there pmasiar. I personally haven't heard of TG but I did find the screencast
for the TG wiki in 20minutes:

TG wiki in 20 Minutes (http://docs.turbogears.org/1.0/Wiki20/Page1)



Thanks

dgeorge
November 12th, 2007, 04:32 AM
Hello everyone,
I just watched the TG wiki demo and thought that it was impressive.

I just wonder what the learning curve is like for a beginner?
Does it assume you already know pyhon, javascript and ajax?

I noticed a few things during the demo:

1. CSS and HTML - do you create your own templates?
2. Javascript - haven't really studied this... might have to?
3. Ajax - haven't used it at all... can't comment
4. Python - just getting though some beginner tutorials at the moment

Do you need to be an expert in these 4 languages in order to be productive with TG?

I guess I will find out later tonight went I go to install TG. I will keep you posted.

I really liked how it was so easy to complie. I haven't used TG yet but the demo really makes me want to install it and get it a try. It did remind me a lot of R on R though.

TG seems to be a cool way of developing websites.

I haven't looked into it yet but do anyone know if hosing is easy to find for TG?

Any other information about it would be great. I am going to install it tonight on my Linux box and give it a go,

Thanks

pmasiar
November 12th, 2007, 05:26 AM
I just wonder what the learning curve is like for a beginner?

Compared to what?

TG is little trickier than Django but not much, and it is quite more flexible.

> Does it assume you already know pyhon, javascript and ajax?

Yes, you should be reasonably competent in Python. Web application has specific challenges (GUI using templates is one, debugging is another), so learn commandline Python first, and reasonably well. Wiki in my sig has the links to books and sets of training tasks.

AJAX = Asynchronous Javascript and XML. AJAX == JS. It is just how JS is used: to communicate with server, and change underlying HTML dynamically.

You don't have to use AJAX if you don't want to or need to - but certainly it looks cool, page changes without reload.

If you cannot wait, you always can go PHP route - but result are often "quick-and-dirty", and buggy PHP code. I would like to say "always", but LaRoza claims there are examples of clean M-V-C code in PHP, even if I never heard of such a rare beast. Maybe if you beg LaRoza enough for links to PHP best practices and examples of clean PHP code...

> 1. CSS and HTML - do you create your own templates?

Obviously. Who else? Or you can hire someone. :-)

> Do you need to be an expert in these 4 languages in order to be productive with TG?

Not expert, but more that 2-3 weeks of experience is highly advisable. It also depends on your experience with other languages, if any.

> I really liked how it was so easy to complie.

TG is in Python, and Python compiles "behind your back" as needed. This is one of its beauties.

To learn Python, IDLE and Python shell are much better environments than TG. Trust me on that.

> [TG] did remind me a lot of R on R though.

Obviously. TG is pretty much RoR improved. And with somewhat cleaner language ... :-)

> I haven't looked into it yet but do anyone know if hosing is easy to find for TG?

Yes. TG homepage has links to hosting companies friendly to TG. BTW, rumors are that TG scales better than RoR, so is easier to host.

> Any other information about it would be great. I am going to install it tonight on my Linux box and give it a go,

TG website, docs, mailing list.

But you need to become reasonably copetent Python coder first IMHO.

LaRoza
November 12th, 2007, 05:56 AM
If you cannot wait, you always can go PHP route - but result are often "quick-and-dirty", and buggy PHP code. I would like to say "always", but LaRoza claims there are examples of clean M-V-C code in PHP, even if I never heard of such a rare beast. Maybe if you beg LaRoza enough for links to PHP best practices and examples of clean PHP code...


Yes, my own code is clean. I agree Python is better, in many senses of the word, but for Web Development, PHP is very good, although it is very easy to make, as you say, "quick and dirty" and buggy code.

At the moment, I haven't done much work on Web sites, and I have trouble writing code for my sites, because I write it in PHP5, then have to alter it at the last minute for my host, which has PHP4. I get weird code like "$page->__destruct()", and odd classes because of this...

mkoehler
November 12th, 2007, 07:30 AM
In opinion of many, it is ASP and PHP (and Perl) what is outdated. (BTW writing PERL just proves you don't get it - it is common test, and you failed). New cool kid is Ruby (on Rails), which you don't use, and Python grown recently (last 2 years) couple Rail-like web app frameworks, Django and TurboGears. Either Django, TG, or RoR are rather different approach ro web application, compared to PHP or ASP. More organized, in Model-View-Controller design pattern (see wikipedia).

Python is interesting in that it is widely used beyond web apps. It can replace bash, Perl for text parsing and manipulation, and C for numeric calculation if you can suffer 50% performance hit, which most common apps easily can.

So if you want **modern** way of web apps, certainly avoid ASP and PHP, and go RoR, or even better, Python/Django or TG.

Of course, you still use HTML for page markup and CSS for design, and AJAX for dynamic functionality - this all is client-side. But I don't see reason to start new project in technologies becoming obsolete, like Perl, and also ASP, PHP.

To get feel what **modern** rapid web app development means, install TG and make your own wiki within hour, including installation and reading. Skilled TG expert can demonstrate TG wiki in 20 minutes, including all typing and edits, they have screencast for it. **Rapid** means skeleton app is up and running within days.

Pmasiar,

While I can agree with you on most of what you said, I would like to point out a few other opinions of mine. ASP was always a dead technology, as it was created by Microsoft. It was created as a more-or-less proprietary language with the intention of rivaling PHP, but without creating libraries for multiple OSs, they never had a chance. However, your comment that PHP is becoming outdated is baseless. While there are new technologies and/or languages that are being developed which rival PHP, it fails to become obsolete. Just as is true with C, there are many other languages that rival it, and most of the time, it is even easier to use the other languages. Nevertheless, it has existed since 1972 and is still widely used today (might I mention it is used as the code base for GNOME). C is also the language of choice by most universities and colleges majoring in the computer science fields, and not by chance. It is a complex language with a high degree of functionality and extended online and offline documentation. For the same reasons as this, PHP will not disappear anytime soon. Since its development in 1995, it has become a standard in the web development sector of the IT industry. While it might not be as user-friendly as Ruby on Rails (or whatever the new, 'hip' web development language may be), it widespread influence and usage will be notable for at least another decade.

Cheers!

pmasiar
November 12th, 2007, 07:59 AM
PHP fails to become obsolete. Just as is true with C,... For the same reasons as this, PHP will not disappear anytime soon. Since its development in 1995, it has become a standard in the web development sector of the IT industry. ... will be notable for at least another decade.

It is ridiculous to compare C and PHP.

C is ultimate language for effective use of CPU (when you don't want to use ASM). C is very good fit for task it was designed to solve, and is result of many attempts to design optimal system-level programming language.

PHP is first attempt to make dedicated web programming language. Yes, it allows lot of people to write ugly code, and yes, they love it, because it allows them to write code, and they would not be able to create any code in C or Java/struts. But new generations of web application languages and frameworks are coming, and will replace PHP, in time.

Of course kids will continue to start with PHP, because it is "easy" to hack a page, however ugly, but it works. But with more modern approaches, like RoR or Py/TG, it is not harder (I would tell easier - languages are more organized), and separating template from code really helps. Of course some selected professionals will keep PHP code, and will learn to write clean and maintainable PHP code. But like with Perl, good clean code is so scarce it will hardly have any culture impact on all the young hackers, hacking away messy PHP pages.

Of course PHP will be around in 10 years, and even in 20. COBOL is around after 40 years, and even is teached in every community college. It does not change not a single iota in fact that COBOL **is** obsolete. Like PHP is obsolete: not because is not used anymore, but because there are better ways to do it, better ways to solve problems in PHP's niche: RoR and Py/TG or Py/Dj.

Of course many people will ignore better ways, and will stick in old obsolete ways, I know it quite well. What else is new? Amish people don't use cars, but so what? You are free to drive around in horse-drawn cart, but I will not.

smartbei
November 12th, 2007, 08:03 AM
@mkoehler: Of course PHP and C won't disappear any time soon. Notice please that no one claimed they would. Indeed, PHP has a huge portion of the server-side scripting market. However, lately we can see a trend towards different languages and technologies - RoR, Django, TG, etc. By mentally extending this trend we can foresee the eventual decline of PHP as a server-side language (which is all it is [questionably] good for). Granted, this may take 20, 30, 40 years to happen, and it may not happen at all, but it is still foreseeable. This is what we (I say we lightly, as I have not yet participated in this thread) base our advice on.

Besides, as has been well-coverd by others, there are numerous advantages to using one of the several Python frameworks for instance.

BTW - another example of clean code in PHP I found was libchart (http://naku.dohcrew.com/libchart/pages/introduction/).

EDIT: pmasiar beat me to it :p.

LaRoza
November 12th, 2007, 08:04 AM
Amish people don't use cars, but so what? You are free to drive around in horse-drawn cart, but I will not.

Interesting comparison.

I am making a move towards Python from PHP, perhaps I will be more like you, except for the physical and age differences...

avik
November 12th, 2007, 08:33 AM
I tend to go with raw HTML (IE can't handle XHTML, and it's not XML if it's not served as XML), along with CSS, maybe some Javascript if it really helps (but it should never be necessary). Then, for the backend, my preference is Ruby, but Python is nice too.

The problem with PHP is that it wasn't designed coherently, and so its functionality is all over the place. As far as I know, things are getting better by the day, but Ruby and Python allow for more functional code, a great benefit when manipulating data.

Whatever the case, it's important to learn a language and learn it well. With Ruby or Python, that's easier, because the available code samples are better than those of PHP. With PHP, you'll find a great deal of amateurish code advocating bad practices. Once again, you can learn any language, but you have to learn it well.

Learn to put all the technologies at hand together coherently, separating the parts when necessary, and you'll be good to go.

kefler
November 16th, 2007, 04:27 PM
This is in response to "Where is the future of web development"

A lot of you make a valid point, but weather or not a language is dieing, dead or new out of the bakery, if you're in the industry, "maintainable" languages is all about preference. If someone were to hand me something made in php, could I keep it clean ?

Depends on the persons coding habits. I have a way I like to do things, others have their ways of doing things in different languages. Fact of the matter remains, if you're in the industry it's usually on a need to know basis, you can't start off writting python code in a php document, and you can't go off writting php in a python document. You code in the language that was previously used to create the project, that's assuming your task isn't to port over a project :lolflag:

A language that is dead or dieing or brand new has nothing to do with what language I choose to learn and I'm guessing that goes the same for many of you. It's simply personal views, needs and/or learning curve.

I will not nail someone if they can't learn perl, python, or php, for all I know that person could be a genius when it comes to C++
I will not say one language is better than another because IMO that is never the case. Would I be better off using Python instead of PHP? NO I don't know python, I've never seen anything written in python and I certainly wont take the time to learn python unless I see a need for it. I've been doing web and application development for 7 or 8 years now and while that may not be all that long, it certainly is a long period of time to not run into something created in python. Is python popular, no idea, is python useful, I'm sure it has many uses just like any other language, is php a messy language by nature, I don't think it is, but regardless of weather it's messy or not, until I find another language that can do it in LESS code than php does, I simply will stick to my roots and stay with php. Weather it's messy code or clean code, the only thing that matters is if what is trying to be made can be understod by whomever has to update/modify it next. While the majority of applications I do read through are my own, I know what's trying to be accomplished and I certainly understand my own code and I believe if any language is well documented, anyone can understand it.

As for XHTML and HTML, I'm sorry but

<html>
and

<HTML>
(yes stupid example)
will come out just fine on any browser. W3C standard you say ?
Microsoft IE I say ?

There will always be browsers out there that don't follow standards down to the T and something will go unexpectedly with your website on that browser despite you using standard code.

"Well, XHTML is standard, not my fault if they are using a crappy browser"

No, it's not your fault if they use a "crappy" browser or an outdated one that was good for it's time, as a web designer you have 2 options, find a way to make it work or exclude them.
Chances are if you're dealing with one of the major browsers out there, and you're in the industry, you're going to find a way to make it work and now it's no longer about standards or languages, now it's about someone elses preferences being forced upon you. It's never fun and it's what leads people to these subtle preference wars.

So, as someone else said in their post, find a language that suits you and learn it well, then if you want to explore by all means. As for what language to start with, skim through the pages and get the names of the language and take them at face value, they are just a programming language. Don't go by what someone else has to say about it, find out if it has what you need and see if it's easy for you to learn, if not, move down the list. See for yourself first hand to see weather or not if YOU like it, there are plenty of people out there who like and prefer every which language but that doesn't mean any one of them should be studied first with the except of HTML/XHTML(which ever one YOU prefer loose/strict respectivey) since you can't really excape using _HTML when it comes to web design :lolflag:

Sorry if I impeded on anyones opinions, or sounded like I was leaning towards one language, that was never my intension with this post.

Remember, someone wanting to learn a new language is often going to go by what he or she first reads, now when it comes time that they need to learn that language they avoided BECAUSE of your opinion, it's going to be harder to learn for them because now they think it's just utterly messy or useless and they are so firmly rooted on the language they saw this oh so long seemingly informative post about on a form that they stopped keeping an open mind about languages.

"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach the man to fish and he eats for a life time" so long as fish don't die out :lolflag:

Kadrus
November 16th, 2007, 04:55 PM
This is in response to "Where is the future of web development"

A lot of you make a valid point, but weather or not a language is dieing, dead or new out of the bakery, if you're in the industry, "maintainable" languages is all about preference. If someone were to hand me something made in php, could I keep it clean ?

Depends on the persons coding habits. I have a way I like to do things, others have their ways of doing things in different languages. Fact of the matter remains, if you're in the industry it's usually on a need to know basis, you can't start off writting python code in a php document, and you can't go off writting php in a python document. You code in the language that was previously used to create the project, that's assuming your task isn't to port over a project :lolflag:

A language that is dead or dieing or brand new has nothing to do with what language I choose to learn and I'm guessing that goes the same for many of you. It's simply personal views, needs and/or learning curve.

I will not nail someone if they can't learn perl, python, or php, for all I know that person could be a genius when it comes to C++
I will not say one language is better than another because IMO that is never the case. Would I be better off using Python instead of PHP? NO I don't know python, I've never seen anything written in python and I certainly wont take the time to learn python unless I see a need for it. I've been doing web and application development for 7 or 8 years now and while that may not be all that long, it certainly is a long period of time to not run into something created in python. Is python popular, no idea, is python useful, I'm sure it has many uses just like any other language, is php a messy language by nature, I don't think it is, but regardless of weather it's messy or not, until I find another language that can do it in LESS code than php does, I simply will stick to my roots and stay with php. Weather it's messy code or clean code, the only thing that matters is if what is trying to be made can be understod by whomever has to update/modify it next. While the majority of applications I do read through are my own, I know what's trying to be accomplished and I certainly understand my own code and I believe if any language is well documented, anyone can understand it.

As for XHTML and HTML, I'm sorry but

<html>
and

<HTML>
(yes stupid example)
will come out just fine on any browser. W3C standard you say ?
Microsoft IE I say ?

There will always be browsers out there that don't follow standards down to the T and something will go unexpectedly with your website on that browser despite you using standard code.

"Well, XHTML is standard, not my fault if they are using a crappy browser"

No, it's not your fault if they use a "crappy" browser or an outdated one that was good for it's time, as a web designer you have 2 options, find a way to make it work or exclude them.
Chances are if you're dealing with one of the major browsers out there, and you're in the industry, you're going to find a way to make it work and now it's no longer about standards or languages, now it's about someone elses preferences being forced upon you. It's never fun and it's what leads people to these subtle preference wars.

So, as someone else said in their post, find a language that suits you and learn it well, then if you want to explore by all means. As for what language to start with, skim through the pages and get the names of the language and take them at face value, they are just a programming language. Don't go by what someone else has to say about it, find out if it has what you need and see if it's easy for you to learn, if not, move down the list. See for yourself first hand to see weather or not if YOU like it, there are plenty of people out there who like and prefer every which language but that doesn't mean any one of them should be studied first with the except of HTML/XHTML(which ever one YOU prefer loose/strict respectivey) since you can't really excape using _HTML when it comes to web design :lolflag:

Sorry if I impeded on anyones opinions, or sounded like I was leaning towards one language, that was never my intension with this post.

Remember, someone wanting to learn a new language is often going to go by what he or she first reads, now when it comes time that they need to learn that language they avoided BECAUSE of your opinion, it's going to be harder to learn for them because now they think it's just utterly messy or useless and they are so firmly rooted on the language they saw this oh so long seemingly informative post about on a form that they stopped keeping an open mind about languages.

"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach the man to fish and he eats for a life time" so long as fish don't die out :lolflag:
LOl..nice example..that cracked me up at the end..:lolflag:

CptPicard
November 16th, 2007, 08:53 PM
Most PHP code I have seen has been next to illegible simply because of mixing HTML and lots of PHP logic. It's just plain awful.

At least try to implement some kind of an MVC pattern. Makes things much cleaner and clearer. TG and RoR enforce this, which is a Good Thing.

One of the platforms that I haven't seen mentioned here is Java -- it's probably because web development on Java just happens to be so complex that not many people actually learn it, and those who do go insane at an early age. I've actually spent the better part of the past decade doing my web app development using Java, and I still don't quite get it how they managed to make the learning curve so incredibly steep and the whole thing so Byzantine -- to get a simple "Hello World" out of a database through all the layers to your JSP if you do things right (transactions and all) -- requires remarkable project wiring. And then something breaks, you get a NullPointerException, and there is no way to debug it except start from scratch...

It is true that the J2EE stack is indeed very complete in the sense that it's sufficient all the way... if you need distributed transactions, messaging, all that. Mostly you don't, and even the "light-weight" non-J2EE solutions are just a nightmare to integrate. And the horrible amount of architecture and layering isn't usually necessary.. when was the last time you wanted to switch databases from underneath your web app -- perhaps even to the tune of having a different schema in the db, so that having "flexibility" in your ORM actually matters?

So anyway, needed to get that off my chest... sorry for rant. ;) I'm going to do my next project in TG.

Zope is problematic because it wants to "own" your project a bit like an J2EE app server wants to, but just in a ... weirder way. MySQL is not a "web app methodology" but just another database. Consider PostgreSQL, I have a strong preference for that one, although for a n00b either will do just fine.

RoR is problematic because while it's easy to generate your code for simple things, you'll want to move beyond the simple stuff. I really don't understand all the noise that is being made of the 10 minute blogs and stuff; what REALLY matters how rapid REAL development is... that is, when you're actually developing something BEYOND the 10 minute blog.

Whatever you do, don't use PEARL... ;)

pmasiar
November 16th, 2007, 09:11 PM
Would I be better off using Python instead of PHP? NO I don't know python, I've never seen anything written in python and I certainly wont take the time to learn python unless I see a need for it.

Some people (like me) DID seen PHP, and for good reasons (like missing Model-View-Controller patters, see wikipedia) decided that non-MVC web app is just wrong way.

Of course people who never used MVC does not miss it - it is known fact, see blub paradox (http://weblog.raganwald.com/2006/10/are-we-blub-programmers.html)

pmasiar
November 16th, 2007, 09:12 PM
LOl..nice example..that cracked me up at the end..:lolflag:

LOL ... quoting whole page for a last line! What a waste of electrons!

Kadrus
November 16th, 2007, 09:18 PM
LOL ... quoting whole page for a last line! What a waste of electrons!

Still is the same :p..

LaRoza
November 16th, 2007, 11:25 PM
Most PHP code I have seen has been next to illegible simply because of mixing HTML and lots of PHP logic. It's just plain awful.

At least try to implement some kind of an MVC pattern. Makes things much cleaner and clearer. TG and RoR enforce this, which is a Good Thing.

My PHP code doesn't mix any PHP or XHTML. It also keeps all ECMAScript and CSS separate from the markup.

It is easy for me to make a site using my own libraries of PHP. I used to, when learning PHP, mix it, but I quickly stopped doing that!

CptPicard
November 16th, 2007, 11:39 PM
Good for You. :) Now that you're at that level, there really is no reason to be using PHP anymore in your business logic level, right? :)

LaRoza
November 17th, 2007, 12:48 AM
Good for You. :) Now that you're at that level, there really is no reason to be using PHP anymore in your business logic level, right? :)

There is no real reason to use PHP over Python for me, except that for most of what I do, the PHP works, so why change? Python is my prefered language, but I see no reason to change existing, working code.