Criticism of ubuntu

[poision_heart]

Hi guys i found this wierd article.Whats your opinion about this.

http://architectfantasy.com/?p=1

http://architectfantasy.com/?p=25
is really ubuntu look and feel is bad?

[Dr Small]

This should have been posted in the Cafe or the Backyard.

[Perfect Storm]

Opinions are like [censored], everyone got one ;)

[23meg]

I read them a few days ago; they're the most insightful critique of Ubuntu I've read in a while. There's so much mediocre "criticism" that sadly passes as "constructive" these days that this kind of thing immediately stands out.

[adamklempner]

Good article. He makes a very strong point about the "spit and polish" of everything, that I agree with.

[songshu]

awesome post,

don't know who the guy is who wrote this, but he should be the one doing the new Hardy theme

[BDNiner]

Maybe I am wrong but wouldn't this be a problem with gnome and not ubuntu itself. Or ubuntu's implementation of the gnome desktop.

[23meg]

A lot of the problems mentioned are problems with GNOME, but since Ubuntu ships GNOME, they're Ubuntu's problems too.

[Johan_SV]

Maybe I am wrong but wouldn't this be a problem with gnome and not ubuntu itself. Or ubuntu's implementation of the gnome desktop.

I don't think it matters, the end user doesn't have to think about whether it is Gnome or not, it is Ubuntu's responsibility.

[buntunub]

Ubuntu definitely has the worst artwork of any Distro I have ever seen. The theming is OK, passable at best. ALOT of work needs to go in to theming for Heron -- ALOT ALOT!! In fact, that should be #1 on their list for Heron aside from the plethora of bug fixes with all the dozens of new bugs they introduced with Gutsy (and those they never did fix with Feisty). LOL where to begin -

Splash screen - Horrible. Just pathetic. Quite obviously, NOBODY with any artistic talent had anything to do with it. YUCK!

Default Desktop background -- Amazingly terrible. I actually felt my eyes hurt. Really, who honestly can look at that sick brown color theme and say "gee, thats really beautiful!" ??!

Background choices that come with Ubuntu default - Again, PATHETIC!! You get three, 3, T H R E E choices in sum and total on default install. KDE offers you the easy option of easily getting new backgrounds via webtool interface, or using "set as background" right-click option. This is a pretty miserable failure on GNOME's part here, but Ubuntu must take the blame and carry responsibility for their distro. GNOME does offer an improved artwork utility via Synaptic that rivals KDE's, but too little, too late, and it is not integrated, nor known about by most. But, this is where GNOME warrents the criticism that is so lavishly piled on by the likes of Linus Torvalds, and many other world-class, prominant Developers. Ubuntu needs to embrace KDE and make it their default WM because GNOME is weak in all the area's that count the most. KDE4 is going to revolutionize the Linux world and most likely, ALL the major distro's will sport it as their default WM. Ubuntu would be wise to beat them to it, and start heavy development on its framework now. Kubuntu in its current state is just horrible, and its Devs seems to be in a continual state of confusion and dissaray. It also does not seem to integrate well with the Ubuntu base, nor does it include many/most of the major improvements that the GNOME varient receives... Were talking about the two largest WM's here. KDE was shown to be used nearly twice as much by Linux users than any other WM, so why the emphasis on GNOME, when it is not the preferred choice for most users?

Mind you, I have nothing against GNOME, or any other WM personally. GNOME cant compete with KDE on its own merits and lacks key functionality, and an integrated application base, because of its development model. In short, the GNOME project is its own worst enemy. It could be so much more, and it ~should~ be much more than what it is today. Sad it is really. Just comparing base to base, KDE integrates a software suite that rivals or betters anything offered in the software world today from CD/DVD Burning, Music, Video and Video editing, Graphics, its own Office suite, file managers, browsers.. List goes on and on. All under the K integration package, and all working closely as a team together. GNOME does not have this, and its collection of apps appears to be more ragtag and thrown together than ever before! Such a shame that this was ever allowed to happen at all with what could and should be the flagship WM for GNU/Linux today. As it stands now, I wont even show it to my Grandma, who would recoil in horror at its complete lack of organization and poor performance.

Edit: Forgot to add in here that the XFCE project, and Xubuntu are a much better choice if your hung up on the whole GTK+ thing. XFCE also sports an integrated package base and it outperforms GNOME across the board. Lets not even talk about speed and functionality, because GNOME simply cant compare or compete there. So, I think its time the Ubuntu devs (Mark) have a good long rethink on the WM they will use as the flagship choice for Heron and beyond.

[23meg]

There goes any hope of having a sane and fruitful discussion on a rare piece of good criticism.

[bruce89]

I don't think it matters, the end user doesn't have to think about whether it is Gnome or not, it is Ubuntu's responsibility.

I don't think so somehow.


Ubuntu definitely has the worst artwork of any Distro I have ever seen. The theming is OK, passable at best. ALOT of work needs to go in to theming for Heron -- ALOT ALOT!! In fact, that should be #1 on their list for Heron aside from the plethora of bug fixes with all the dozens of new bugs they introduced with Gutsy (and those they never did fix with Feisty). LOL where to begin -

[snip big flaming]


Bloody hell, there's no need for that.



Mind you, I have nothing against GNOME, or any other WM personally.


Sounds like you do:



KDE offers you the easy option of easily getting new backgrounds via webtool interface, or using "set as background" right-click option. This is a pretty miserable failure on GNOME's part here, but Ubuntu must take the blame and carry responsibility for their distro. GNOME does offer an improved artwork utility via Synaptic that rivals KDE's, but too little, too late, and it is not integrated, nor known about by most. But, this is where GNOME warrents the criticism that is so lavishly piled on by the likes of Linus Torvalds, and many other world-class, prominant Developers. Ubuntu needs to embrace KDE and make it their default WM because GNOME is weak in all the area's that count the most. KDE4 is going to revolutionize the Linux world and most likely, ALL the major distro's will sport it as their default WM. Ubuntu would be wise to beat them to it, and start heavy development on its framework now. Kubuntu in its current state is just horrible, and its Devs seems to be in a continual state of confusion and dissaray. It also does not seem to integrate well with the Ubuntu base, nor does it include many/most of the major improvements that the GNOME varient receives... Were talking about the two largest WM's here. KDE was shown to be used nearly twice as much by Linux users than any other WM, so why the emphasis on GNOME, when it is not the preferred choice for most users?


Specifically which world class developers?

KDE4 is a load of fd.o stuff abstracted IMHO.

[RudolfMDLT]

I have to agree. Ubuntu needs a feature freeze for 1 year and use the year for polishing otherwise it'll keep on working and looking like a gadget instead of a pro OS. It's just my opinion but Ubuntu works great and is the only OS on my laptop but sometimes it really lets itself down.

[BDNiner]

I guess so, just like you yell at a waiter even though it is not their fault. BTW i think opensuse's default gnome theme is the worst one. Ubuntu's is not that much better, but opensuse's is definitely the worst. I am not a big fan of KDE. It is more a presentation thing than an integration thing. KDE just looks ugly and i feel it tries too much to copy windows and mac instead of standing on its own. Gnome is simple and to the point.

[poision_heart]

Yes i agree its problem of gnome but if you ll see other distro like opensuse or see this new linux mint.They did nice job.So i think ubuntu also look into this matter.

[p_quarles]

There goes any hope of having a sane and fruitful discussion on a rare piece of good criticism.
It's looking that way.

Let's can the budding DE flamewar and get back to the guy's main point: that the software is fantastic but the visual presentation is unpolished. Would you prefer that the developers consider presentation bugs (e.g., with compiz and icons) a showstopper for a release? That's a good question, and I'm not sure what I think.

[poision_heart]

Nice topics you covered about gnome.But its not like we should shift to kde.After gnome 2.20 gnome users already increased.Kde is more matured than gnome so thats advantage of kde.Ya but i liked your xfce view.

[Arthur Archnix]

Gutsy broke my GDM. Transitions between usplash and gdm, gdm and desktop, and again upon logging out require hacks to make look good. I agree that its a time and polish thing.

When I'm able to submit patches maybe then I'll complain about it and tell developers how to spend their time. For now I've got a bug open and try to help others resolve similar issues.

Still, interesting article. thanks for the link.

[buntunub]

I guess so, just like you yell at a waiter even though it is not their fault. BTW i think opensuse's default gnome theme is the worst one. Ubuntu's is not that much better, but opensuse's is definitely the worst. I am not a big fan of KDE. It is more a presentation thing than an integration thing. KDE just looks ugly and i feel it tries too much to copy windows and mac instead of standing on its own. Gnome is simple and to the point.

I actually agree with this, and its a good point given M$'s latest FUD. XFCE is probably the best choice given that, and it has a great package set and base, and is much better functionally.

This is NOT a GNOME flamewar, and I apologize if my post appeared to be. I love GNOME, KDE, XFCE, Flux,..all. Its all a part of GNU/Linux, and so its all good. BUT, were talking about Ubuntu here specifically. Ubuntu's implementation of the GNOME WM more to the point. Ubuntu is perhaps the flagship of the Linux world now for many reasons, and it should litterally BE the best/most functional/bug free of them all if it truly wishes to impress ALL crowds. I just dont think using GNOME is the way to attain that.

[igknighted]

I guess so, just like you yell at a waiter even though it is not their fault. BTW i think opensuse's default gnome theme is the worst one. Ubuntu's is not that much better, but opensuse's is definitely the worst. I am not a big fan of KDE. It is more a presentation thing than an integration thing. KDE just looks ugly and i feel it tries too much to copy windows and mac instead of standing on its own. Gnome is simple and to the point.

???

KDE is very little about copying. In fact, I would go as far as to say that in many ways, it is the most innovating desktop available (windows/mac included). I'll throw KDE4 in my analysis here, but even kde3 stuff is relevant.

1) KDE's kioslaves are the greatest things ever. No more need for an ftp client, or a program to talk to your camera or ipod, or any other separate program. Now you can simply connect your device or remote filesystem, KDE connects to it, and any app (kde app) can use the device through the kioslave. I know I am completely oversimplifying this, but in use they are amazing.

2) Plasma. Yes, this is KDE4 and not done yet. But they are completely blurring the lines about what is the desktop and what is the panel. Which is good, because why should I not be able to drag my trashcan icon to the panel or back? Or why can't my weather applet sit on my desktop? Great move.

3) Symantic desktop. Strigi search is only a part of this. The use of meta-tags for all your documents and files coupled with the kioslaves will let your computer be able to always display the most relevant stuff to you. Example, in your documents you have a file from Jim. In the side panel, dolphin might be displaying a recent email from jim, or a cad drawing of a part referenced, or something else relevant. The first example of this will likely be Mandriva's nepomuk project, no idea when to expect this.

4) Innovative naming sKemes. Sorry, kouldn't resist.

The first 3 items are, to me, pushing the status quo about what your desktop should do. They are certainly not merely "copying apple and MS". I'm not trying to put down the other DEs here, but I fail to see what Gnome, Apple or MS are doing to innovate on the desktop like KDE is, which is why I feel completely comfortable with my statement above.

[bruce89]

I actually agree with this, and its a good point given M$'s latest FUD. XFCE is probably the best choice given that, and it has a great package set and base, and is much better functionally.

This is NOT a GNOME flamewar, and I apologize if my post appeared to be. I love GNOME, KDE, XFCE, Flux,..all. Its all a part of GNU/Linux, and so its all good. BUT, were talking about Ubuntu here specifically. Ubuntu's implementation of the GNOME WM more to the point. Ubuntu is perhaps the flagship of the Linux world now for many reasons, and it should litterally BE the best/most functional/bug free of them all if it truly wishes to impress ALL crowds. I just dont think using GNOME is the way to attain that.

Unfounded moaning about something is called flaming. Stating that GNOME is pathetic and why and saying KDE4 will have everyone's babies and everyone should use it is not useful.

I've asked for this thread to be closed.

[poision_heart]

Mandriva is ok but lacking somewhere against ubuntu.Well what you ll say about linux mint?It also came from ubuntu.Mint menu is nice example of making gnome better.

[23meg]

Would you prefer that the developers consider presentation bugs (e.g., with compiz and icons) a showstopper for a release? That's a good question, and I'm not sure what I think.

No. I'd prefer it if the artwork creation process was modified so that new artwork wouldn't arrive so late in the cycle and cause problems that are hard to fix at that point.

[buntunub]

Unfounded moaning about something is called flaming. Stating that GNOME is pathetic and why and saying KDE4 will have everyone's babies and everyone should use it is not useful.

I've asked for this thread to be closed.

Attempting to stifle a discussion is not helpful either, just because your ~opinion~ of it is that it is not helpful. Its your ~opinion~ and nothing more than that. Its certainly not any more correct than mine or anyone elses. Stifling a discussion just because you dont like it is both unhealthy and shows a closed minded nature.

The discussion is about artwork, theming and the lot. The WM used plays a HUGE part in that.

[ticopelp]

That's a great article. Many thanks to the OP for sharing it.

Personally, I like Ubuntu's emphasis on choice -- if someone wants GNOME, KDE, or XCFE, they can find a ready-made distro to install. As I much prefer GNOME personally, I'd be disheartened to see Ubuntu abandon it in favor of a KDE-only distro.

[-grubby]

That's a great article. Many thanks to the OP for sharing it.

Personally, I like Ubuntu's emphasis on choice -- if someone wants GNOME, KDE, or XCFE, they can find a ready-made distro to install. As I much prefer GNOME personally, I'd be disheartened to see Ubuntu abandon it in favor of a KDE-only distro.

right on the mark. Linux is about choice. NOT about locking you in.

[Zdravko]

Hi guys i found this wierd article.Whats your opinion about this.

http://architectfantasy.com/?p=1

http://architectfantasy.com/?p=25
is really ubuntu look and feel is bad?
Who said Ubuntu look and feel is bad? Did you read the articles? :mad:

[buntunub]

right on the mark. Linux is about choice. NOT about locking you in.

Agree!

So, why the disparity with new Ubuntu implementations between Buntu DE's then, and the poor artwork/theming with Ubuntu, while its cousins seem to not suffer from that? Ubuntu seems to give unfair functionality to its GNOME varient while Xubuntu and Kubuntu do not get it. I guess the point is, why the lack of uniformity when it comes to functionality (when feasable) and theming/artwork?

[gn2]

The customisation that linux offers is unparalleled.

Art is in the eye of the beholder, if you don't like the look and feel, change it.

[SomeGuyDude]

Y'know I've tried a lot of distros. In the past three months I had two flavors of Ubuntu, Kubuntu (so I've messed with KDE and not just GNOME), and Xandros. Mandrake and FC were a while ago, as well as a failed attempt at OpenSUSE.

This article is... not inaccurate, but highly misleading. Ubuntu out of the box is okay but somewhat stifling. It doesn't feel as good as I'd been led to believe. HOWEVER, take a week to customize and now it's gorgeous. Simple as that. The beautiful part is that you can take the initiative and make it how you want it. Also this is crap:

"Specially when you compare them to the competition. When you look at the photo transitions of iPhoto on a MacBook, they are smooth and fluid. When you drag windows around in Vista, or minimize and maximize on top-end hardware, the transitions are fluid and consistent. When you minimize and maximize windows in Ubuntu? The animation sometimes disappears if your computer is under load. When you enable photo transitions in F-Spot on Ubuntu? I can’t believe my eyes witnessing the graphical tears on the photo as one picture transitions to the next. This is on an Intel Quad CPU with Nvidia Geforce 8800."

I've got an Intel Dual CPU and some shared memory crap, and the animation NEVER disappears, it just gets a little halted if I'm doing something extremely strenuous.

It ain't perfect, but this guy's really going off the rails and laying into it for some pretty asinine problems.

[Rinzwind]

Would it be an idea to disect that blog and post them in the idea pool?
I saw lots of well argumented complaints, Though most don't bug me I do sometimes wonder why someone decided to put something in the menu I look at ;)

[bakster]

I tested kde4 since first beta.I don't think it will be some kind of revolution.It will be much better then current 3.5 series,more polished(for me kde 3.5 is a complete GUI mess) ,nice eyecandy (plasma,qt4 look and feel) and strigi.

GNOME also have a lot of problems,but next Ubuntu/GNOME will be also exciting.Tracker should offer similar features as strigi.GnomeVFS will be replaced with new GVFS.Pulseaudio will replace ESD in Hardy(I hope). Epiphany will use WebKit.A new and powerful network manager. Problems with menu bar, dialogs,panels should be fixed.Here is GNOME roadmap (http://live.gnome.org/RoadMap).Of course,not everything is listed there.The best way to track development is gnome bugzilla + mailing list.

[poision_heart]

Yes i read article.You didnt get my question,i ask related with that article that is really ubuntu look n feel bad cos those articles related with that only.When you ll see competitors you ll feel ubuntu is behind in terms of look n feel.And thats what everyone saying here.

[Zdravko]

Everyone? I am not everyone. I am satisfied with Ubuntu look and feel. The articles focus on small bugs that should be normally fixed before LTS final release.
Other competitors? Ubuntu does not have them. Ubuntu is an OS of its own. You can't compare apples with pears - read the article one more time to understand this.

[23meg]

Would it be an idea to disect that blog and post them in the idea pool?

No, it would be a good idea to dissect it and file bugs.

[buntunub]

Everyone? I am not everyone. I am satisfied with Ubuntu look and feel. The articles focus on small bugs that should be normally fixed before LTS final release.
Other competitors? Ubuntu does not have them. Ubuntu is an OS of its own. You can't compare apples with pears - read the article one more time to understand this.

Its precisely "fanboi" attitudes such as these that stifle innovation and true progress in the linux world.

Ubuntu is NOT a unique distro. In point of fact, Ubuntu would not exist at all were it not for Debian, its true master of masters. It was not closed minded attitudes that got Linux to what it is today, that is for sure.

[bruce89]

In point of fact, Ubuntu would not exist at all were it not for Debian, its true master of masters.

Indeed, only about 10% of packages in Ubuntu are modified from Debian's version IIRR.

The more time goes on, the more I want to replace the desktop with Debian.

[tubasoldier]

I have to agree. Ubuntu needs a feature freeze for 1 year and use the year for polishing otherwise it'll keep on working and looking like a gadget instead of a pro OS. It's just my opinion but Ubuntu works great and is the only OS on my laptop but sometimes it really lets itself down.

I agree with this. I just ditched Ubuntu off of my laptop. It has gotten very very buggy. My laptop is not all that compatible with linux anyways, and so when something goes slightly wrong with Ubuntu it goes very wrong with my laptop. Fedora fits it quite well, other than the package management is not as nice as synaptic. But you only need to set it up and then leave it alone.

I'm still sticking with Ubuntu on my dekstop. For now. But we will see how other things turn out.

[p_quarles]

Indeed, only about 10% of packages in Ubuntu are modified from Debian's version IIRR.

The more time goes on, the more I want to replace the desktop with Debian.
You know, I've been mulling that over myself for the past week or so. Really the only downside is the fact that a number of precompiled .deb packages are now built for Ubuntu, and there is no guarantee of binary compatibility.

Debian is great (I do use Etch on my server), and it's probably where I'll end up sooner or later. That said, I think Ubuntu's goal is completely different: it's not trying to be the most resource efficient or most customizable distro (though it can be those, if you know what you're doing), it's trying to appeal to people who are used to their OS coming with their computer. That's something that Debian isn't about (and it would be sad, I think, if they took that direction), but it's still a good goal.

[D-EJ915]

I definitely agree with Gnome's new appearance thing, it sucks, badly. Having to go around and around to do things is the whole reason I hate gnome to begin with, and they just make it worse, ugh.

[buntunub]

GNOME by itself, and for the more experienced users, is not that bad. Because it lacks uniformity overall, it suffers badly. It ~may~ have some sort of roadmap, but it needs a complete facelift and makeover. Great ideas, bad implementation imo. This stems from poor leadership most likely. Again, very sad, because one can only look at it in bewilderment and think, "Ahh.. What a wasted opportunity there to really BE something!"

Fortunately, or unfortunately, depending on how one sees things, GNOME lacks the "bling, bling" factor, that most modern users expect and require. By modern I mean below the geriatric age of the old timers still clinging to the "L33t" command line mentality that went south a decade ago with the advent of new fangled things like Xservers and GUI's. If you fall into that category then please stop reading this thread. You will never understand it no matter how hard you try..

[p_quarles]

@buntunub: That last post is a pretty good example of why some people here might suspect you're trying to start a flamewar. Can you tone it down a bit? It's possible to disagree with someone else's opinion without being disrespectful.

[igknighted]

I agree with this. I just ditched Ubuntu off of my laptop. It has gotten very very buggy. My laptop is not all that compatible with linux anyways, and so when something goes slightly wrong with Ubuntu it goes very wrong with my laptop. Fedora fits it quite well, other than the package management is not as nice as synaptic. But you only need to set it up and then leave it alone.

I'm still sticking with Ubuntu on my dekstop. For now. But we will see how other things turn out.

No offense, but I really doubt Fedora will fit that bill either. Fedora's goal is to be as modern as possible (more so than Ubuntu), at the expense of a few bugs if necessary. Don't get me wrong, I love fedora. I use it on my desktop, and its great. But if your reason for leaving Ubuntu was its focus on pumping out new software, I doubt you will be happy in Fedora either.

Slackware, Debian, RHEL/CentOS, and even OpenSuse would seem to be more up your alley due to their longer development cycles.

[igknighted]

Its precisely "fanboi" attitudes such as these that stifle innovation and true progress in the linux world.

Ubuntu is NOT a unique distro. In point of fact, Ubuntu would not exist at all were it not for Debian, its true master of masters. It was not closed minded attitudes that got Linux to what it is today, that is for sure.

His opinion of Ubuntu's theme is just as valid as yours. If you want to make the claim that "everyone hates Ubuntu's theme", then show us some numbers to back it up.

I hate Ubuntu's theme. It's not the brown, its how it is presented. Look at Sidux... now that is brown done right.

In the end, if you have a better idea for a theme, present it. This is open source, the community makes the distro. Present your theme to the community and the dev team and explain why yours should be default, and see where it goes.

The color scheme is not what is holding Ubuntu back. It isn't gnome. It isn't any of these trivial things. It is the lack of a desire for something different from the general populace. The status quo for many is simply good enough, so they wont rock the boat. So I don't think the theme is that pressing of an issue.

[mivo]

Its precisely "fanboi" attitudes such as these that stifle innovation and true progress in the linux world.

Would you mind posting links to the themes, splash screens or other artwork you have contributed to the Linux world?

Thanks! :)

[ticopelp]

Fortunately, or unfortunately, depending on how one sees things, GNOME lacks the "bling, bling" factor, that most modern users expect and require. By modern I mean below the geriatric age of the old timers still clinging to the "L33t" command line mentality that went south a decade ago with the advent of new fangled things like Xservers and GUI's. If you fall into that category then please stop reading this thread. You will never understand it no matter how hard you try..

This sort of inflammatory nonsense is unnecessary, and does nothing to help your credibility in trying to make a point.

[nand]

Very good article! The author gives a good analysis of why 'polishness' is important and some good examples of what's wrong in ubuntu.

I will quote one paragraph from his article which IMO resumes the polish argument in a good example


Let me wrap up this discussion with a final point. Whoever makes the argument that we should not make a big deal out of the little quirks, could potentially be encouraging mediocrity. Was Apple the first company to make an MP3 player? Absolutely not. Then why is the Ipod synonymous with portable media? If Steve Jobs were to tell you the secret to the success of his company he would say that business is wonderful for Apple because so many people make interesting products, but they make them poorly, or not as well as they really could. His company just knows how to do it better. Apple doesn’t always do things differently by creating a fundamentally new and revolutionary idea. Apple often succeeds through a large collection of small improvements, that together make a device or piece of software that provides a new and revolutionary experience. Ipod clearly shows when something is made right, people will notice the pleasant experience, and like the forbidden fruit, once you get a taste, it’s very difficult to go back to your ignorant ways.

[DarkOx]

I've another criticism to add to the list:

Ubuntu's boot-up process looks horrible. The splash screen looks alright, except it routinely flashes text at the user. This doesn't give a good first impression for the system. At best, it looks unfinished and at worst it will reinforce the stereotype of Linux as a text-based hacker OS (actually, on second thought there is something yet worse: it could remind people of older OS's like DOS).

Long story short, it'll be great to see the SlickBoot specification implemented.

[toupeiro]

This sort of inflammatory nonsense is unnecessary, and does nothing to help your credibility in trying to make a point.

Not to mention his point is completely lost.

If CLI is so last decade, explain to me why Windows server 2008 has a version called Windows Server Core which will completely lack the windows gui, or even something as flexible as that new fangled thing called an Xserver (circa 1984) and is fundamentally based on System V with an extended subset of windows CLI commands? Its funny how much banter there is about CLI when Microsoft, being linux's biggest competition for desktop and server implementations, is reverting almost all of their core functionality back to CLI. This can also be seen in Vista's "power shell". Historically, the best windows admins and most efficient windows users (business or home) I ever met are moderate to heavy CLI users. This is an applicable statement all through the 1990's and the 2000's. That wouldn't be the case if CLI was really dying/dead. What exactly are you basing your statements on? I'm basing mine on supporting thousands of users and systems over the last decade, and being that I am still healthy and under 30, I am nowhere near a geriatric. (As if age has anything to do with anything. Please...)

As far as Gnome is concerned:

If you don't like gnome... don't use it. If you really have an issue about it, sound it off at gnome.org. Or *gasp* contribute to the project and try making it better? I hate to say it, but reading your comments sheds a light on you that exposes you to be 'chronically uninformed' on some of these topics, and your attitude towards the forum members echoes that of an angsty teen who learned about linux and wikipedia at the same time. You will attract more flies with honey than with vinegar, and those 'old timers' are likely some of the ones writing your howto's when you break your box, so a little respect would be nice. Afterall.. its ARTWORK you are using for your main gripe about Ubuntu's implementation of gnome! Ubuntu's no. 1 priority should never be shininess. Run vista if you care more about pretties than productivity. In My Opinion, the minimalistic approach ubuntu has at a default interface is a plus. It will inspire some additional creativity in its users to theme the WM themselves, which is way better than Canonical pretending to know what should be aesthetically pleasing to the world.

[adam.tropics]

To the OP...very interesting read, thanks for posting...oh, and in the day of everyone and his dog having a blog, refreshingly well written too.

I was going to comment further but us 'geriatric old timers' get mighty tired trying to untangle the common sense in some of the posts when threads go down this road.

[23meg]

I've reported this hijacked and ruined thread to be closed, and started a new thread (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=3722431) for those who want to actually discuss the points made in these two articles.