Is Ubuntu trying to kill GNU/Linux?

[tom_bxl]

I'm a happy Linux user since 1996 and after having used Slakware and SuSE, I switched to Gentoo 4 years ago. I was pretty happy seeing the success of Ubuntu as a credible alternative to M$ garbage. Not having enough time to maintain my Gentoo box, I decided to switch to Ubuntu...

I then installed Gutsy one week ago and I must admit the installation went pretty smoothly, all hardware was working out of the box, and I start using it. What a disaster, the full system was incredibly slow and freezing at least once a day! I NEVER faced such freezes since years, some application used to crash from time to time but these were always unstable versions; but the system was just rock solid. The fix was pretty easy; completely removing compiz and switching back to metacity. To be sure this was not related to my PC, I installed Ubuntu on another one: same symptoms. Seeing the number of posts about Gutsy/compiz I'm not the only one.

Now my point is the following. Given the success of Ubuntu, I imagine a windows user willing to switch to Linux and installing Ubuntu, what will be his first impression: a slow unstable system. Trying to fix it would require him to understand what X, compiz, a window manager, package dependencies and gconf. Probably too much and he will give up. Just because of fancy graphical effect!

In a time when M$ is trying to create FUD, it is crucial that the first Linux contact is a success. I find it a pity that due to the inclusion of packages having such a fundamental impact on the stability and usability of a system some people may just give up saying "Linux, yeah, I tried it; too many problems"

Mr Ubuntu, may I quote the design principles on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuArchitecture : "Applications should work immediately upon installation, without requiring additional steps...". Next time, please try to focus on usability (this includes stability). Given Ubuntu success, you are one of the key players in GNU/Linux visibility. It would be sad to loose potential GNU/Linux users and loose our credibility right now.

[Dimitriid]

Inflammatory thread title aside, Yes I agree with most of your points, although I personally think compiz fusion is not the only wrong thing on Gutsy ( Network Manager its still another huge show stopper now going as far as to avoiding shut down on a known bug that was not resolved ) I think compiz-fusion is in no way mature enough to be on by default on a distro. Unless its a distro specifically designed to show it off ( think Elive but for Compiz Fusion )

I definitely feel like a Heron alpha tester and not a user of a finished release with Gutsy.

[osxcapades]

Apparently, you're part of a small minority of users for whom Ubuntu does not work as it should. Normally, I think it should. Try using different hardware.

[tom_bxl]

Try using different hardware.... This is a kind of Microsoft statement, change PC every two years :). Also a reason why I'm using Linux, I just want to be free to change hardware when I decide it. Btw, all this hardware works perfectly under Gentoo.

I convinced Ubuntu is a good system but given its visibility, it should not take any risk of disappointing users.

Dimitriid, the smiley was to make the thread title lest inflammatory :)

[aysiu]

Apparently, you're part of a small minority of users for whom Ubuntu does not work as it should. Normally, it does. Try using different hardware.
It may be a minority of users, but I doubt it's a small minority. Do you have any numbers to back up your assertion?

I honestly have no idea how many people are experiencing problems. Certainly some people will experience problems and not bother to post on the forums but just give up. Other people may experience no problems but decide not to post saying "Hey, everything's working. Just thought you might like to know."

I'm not definitely saying it's a majority of users who are experiencing problems; I'm just curious as to why you seem so certain it's a minority.

[Polygon]

trying to make ubuntu or any OS work with every single combination of hardware is extremely hard, if not impossible. even windows doesnt do this, when you get a new video card...you have to dl the drivers from the website...same with sound card, wireless card, etc


it also has to do with marketshare, vendors dont want to waste time creating drivers for such a 'small' userbase....and also the drivers are closed source so its impossible or really hard to create open source ones

[n3tfury]

Inflammatory thread title aside, Yes I agree with most of your points, although I personally think compiz fusion is not the only wrong thing on Gutsy ( Network Manager its still another huge show stopper now going as far as to avoiding shut down on a known bug that was not resolved ) I think compiz-fusion is in no way mature enough to be on by default on a distro. Unless its a distro specifically designed to show it off ( think Elive but for Compiz Fusion )

I definitely feel like a Heron alpha tester and not a user of a finished release with Gutsy.

inflammatory? get over it.

[osxcapades]

It may be a minority of users, but I doubt it's a small minority. Do you have any numbers to back up your assertion?

I honestly have no idea how many people are experiencing problems. Certainly some people will experience problems and not bother to post on the forums but just give up. Other people may experience no problems but decide not to post saying "Hey, everything's working. Just thought you might like to know."

I'm not definitely saying it's a majority of users who are experiencing problems; I'm just curious as to why you seem so certain it's a minority.

I used the word "apparently" in my post because it only seemed as though not many users were experiencing problems. But more edits to my post were still needed. Thanks for pointing this out.

[smartboyathome]

I have had some problems with Compiz Fusion (and must admit that I have had to restart at least 3-4 times a week, sometimes more), but it was probably more to do with all the applications I was running in addition to Fusion (Firefox 2 for school, Firefox 3 for play, OpenOffice, and many more heavy apps).

[n3tfury]

not only that, when you're running other software that's beta, it's a bit hard to blame the OS innit.

[tom_bxl]

trying to make ubuntu or any OS work with every single combination of hardware is extremely hard, if not impossible. even windows doesnt do this, when you get a new video card...you have to dl the drivers from the website...same with sound card, wireless card, etc


it also has to do with marketshare, vendors dont want to waste time creating drivers for such a 'small' userbase....and also the drivers are closed source so its impossible or really hard to create open source ones

I fully agree and realize this point. I'm however not sure it applies in my case since I'm using the nvidia drivers, from nvidia :-). Do not misunderstand me, I definitively appreciate the good work from the Ubuntu developers and community. I just find that compiz is maybe not ready for a stable system.

[agurk]

To include or to not include Compiz, that was the question. And Mr Ubuntu knew that he was going to be bashed either way. FWIW, I think it was a good desicion to include it, but it was also the first thing I disabled. The second was trackerd... ;)

[Dimitriid]

Apparently, you're part of a small minority of users for whom Ubuntu does not work as it should. Normally, I think it should. Try using different hardware.

Hardware is not the issue since everything worked perfectly without a single hitch on Feisty. Even compiz fusion. The problems described here + the problems I had with gutsy are specifically related to the distro and/or the updates on it. Updates that break previously working functionality speak of degrading quality control.

I am not assuming that gnome 2.20 is the root of the problems because it has worked perfectly ok on Arch Linux.

[Dimitriid]

not only that, when you're running other software that's beta, it's a bit hard to blame the OS innit.

In the case of Linux a distro can choose which software AND which version of said software to include so no its not hard to blame the OS. I though ubuntu aimed to be a bit more updated than Debian without getting to the point of becoming unstable. Compiz Fusion and later implementations of Network Manager have changed this however.

If this is the new direction for Ubuntu fine, but it will definitely hurt adoption ratio since I for example would no longer recommend it as a transition distro for Windows users.

[n3tfury]

In the case of Linux a distro can choose which software AND which version of said software to include so no its not hard to blame the OS. I though ubuntu aimed to be a bit more updated than Debian without getting to the point of becoming unstable. Compiz Fusion and later implementations of Network Manager have changed this however.

If this is the new direction for Ubuntu fine, but it will definitely hurt adoption ratio since I would no longer recommend it as a transition distro for Windows users.

i don't understand. im saying say the use of Firefox three that's not included (for obvious reasons) in gutsy can possibly cause issues not to be blamed on the OS.

[Dimitriid]

i don't understand. im saying say the use of Firefox three that's not included (for obvious reasons) in gutsy can possibly cause issues not to be blamed on the OS.

If said issues are tested and/or detected or there is reasonable doubt then Gutsy could use the same version Feisty used by default. Same goes for compiz ( regular compiz, not fusion, which is a lot more stable ). If the new nvidia drivers break functionality or become worst you keep the old ones in.

In short, the main advantage to the modular nature of the Linux kernel and applications implemented for it is precisely that you can select whatever works best for you. To me this should land distros in 4 main categories:

1) Distros that never compromise system stability and security and rather trade in the amount of features and compatibility ( think Debian stable )

2) Distros that compromise stability and new features trying to update as much as possible within reason: within reason means its not gonna be a rock solid smooth ride but some things outta "just work, out of the box" This is where I though Ubuntu aimed to stay

3) Distros that compromise new features and updates trying to retain some stability. This is getting close to volunteering into a beta test, recommended for more advanced users or systems where user needs to know a bit about what he is doing ( I say Arch for example )

4) Distros that never compromise new features and software advances. The bleeding edge, certified beta testers and quite often even alpha testers to new features that are more than a little bit rought around the edges. Not sure which distro would be a good example but I say think about something with compiz fusion on by default, newest "restricted" ( in other words proprietary ) drivers including the new proprietary ati aixlg enabled drivers, possibly even KDE 4 early betas.

I think the reason why some distros raise to popularity and good adoption rates and mantain it is because the only general group that has a true mass appeal is #2. Compiz Fusion is to be considered alpha at this point, veeery rough around the edges, still largely unproven. Even more so cause its very nature compromises x server stability.

Compiz being on Ubuntu might not be a bad idea, as an easy install on the repositories. Pre-installing it was starting to be a bit much ( although compiz was a lot less sketchy than compiz fusion ) but on by default on certain hardware is just a bad idea unless you are a #3 or possibly #4 distro.

At least that is how I see it.

[tom_bxl]

I fully agree with the points of Dimitriid, in my original post, I emphasize on the fact that Ubuntu has to biggest Linux market share ( see 2006 desktop survey (http://www.desktoplinux.com/cgi-bin/survey/survey.cgi?view=archive&id=0821200617613) ).

Ubuntu being close to 30%, it is more likely to be chosen by Linux newcomers. In a period where Linux is being considered as an alternative to windows, it's not the right time to reduce the testing efforts, delivering an unstable version to the public, especially if unstability is caused by eye candies packages.

I would personally prefer a policy as one new stable version every year for instance and why not some unstable releases every three months so everyone would be happy, people look for stability and people looking for brand new software. But the general availability version should aim at stability.

[RebounD11]

I used to have Feisty as my main OS but I moved to openSuSE when Gutsy came out. I wanted a distro that supports all my hardware and works well.

Feisty worked great and only had a little thing against my wireless card (which required a compromise: reboot when I wanted to switch from wireless to wired networking) and another small issue with my screen resolutions (it detected a wide screen and mine is 4:3 one).

But Feisty got old, I wanted something more up-to-date and Gutsy seemed right. But it was disappointing to say the least: black screen on first boot (reinstall nvidia drivers and reinstall CF, and make it so that it's only active when I need and want it active) that took 2-3 hours to sort out. No networking (wired or wireless), eventually got one adapter out of three to show in the network manager but still wouldn't connect. So after a day of installation (for me an OS is fully installed when everything works and has all the programs I use installed and running) I was half way to having a working computer but couldn't go further because the lack of networking.

That's when I knew I had to move on to a different distro: openSuSE 10.3

PS: And the irony o this is that I switched to Ubuntu from openSuSE 10.2 (trying other distros in during the switch but stuck to Ubuntu).

[kopinux]

there wouldnt be a problem if a person bought his computer that comes pre-installed with ubuntu/linux. it is nice to know we are having a choice now.

about hardware problems, we might have forgotten lots of hardware has a "designed for windows" logo in the box. you can't blame ubuntu for that.

[tom_bxl]

The point of this thread is definitively not hardware compatibility (please see my previous comments) nor the debate about closed drivers from manufacturers. All my hardware is working perfectly with Ubuntu and Gentoo and both distributions make a great job using of GNU/Linux core components to properly detect and get them to work.

The main points I want to put forward are:
1) I got everything working under Ubuntu in a fairly reasonable amount of time. Since a couple of days I'm back to what I expect from my system: fast and solid. However, I don't think a newbie switching from Windows to Ubuntu, would have managed to get to this point without a lot of learning and probably spending too much time to get there. I though the Ubuntu philosophy was to provide a Linux system to the broadest audience with a very minimum of headache in getting a system + apps running
2) The root cause of point 1 is the inclusion of default packages that are not stable enough

I think a "keep it simple" approach would be preferable, i.e. install by default only using rock solid components and give the opportunity to users to install less stable package later. The fact that Ubuntu decided to go another way is not a good think for the credibility of GNU/Linux as an alternative.

[Dimitriid]

there wouldnt be a problem if a person bought his computer that comes pre-installed with ubuntu/linux. it is nice to know we are having a choice now.


Very good point, BUT, many of the linux powered hardware vendors do overcharge quite a bit, Dell included. I hope this changes with the new $199 gOS walmart deals and I hope the same guys sell a $350-400 Linux laptop too.

[Bubs]

I agree. I haven't been using linux as long as you. I've only been using it as my desktop for almost a full year not, but I've had linux installed on at least one computer I own for a few years now.

Ubuntu is my distro of choice and Gutsy was a bit more of a hassle than I wanted. I didn't have compiz on by default it wouldn't run. Good thing because I don't want it. network manager is ****, always has been. I think they should replace it with wicd. Thats what I use on my desktop for feisty and gutsy. works every time. I only have a small issue with the icon not working very well in the top panel. I hope for hardy they give up the flashy looks and just give us a really good distro.

BUT I', not saying gutsy is a bad distro. I like ubuntu it works and it's easy to use. two things I like when I use my computer. but I agree with the previous poster who said they feel like they are an alpha tester for hardy. it just doesn't feel comlpete

[bruce89]

I think they should replace it with wicd. Thats what I use on my desktop for feisty and gutsy. works every time. I only have a small issue with the icon not working very well in the top panel.

I want Epiphany as the default browser, but that won't ever happen.

wicd doesn't pay much attention to the HIG (http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/hig/) either.