Ubuntu's Problems

[teapot]

My Goodbye to Ubuntu

{This posting will, of course, be attacked and picked to death. That is the nature of people. I'm doing my best not to unload my emotions here. I hope you, the reader, can do the same...}

Ubuntu is a wonderful idea. I truly believe it will make a large difference in the years to come. Many people in need of reliable (and free) software will use it for business and personal desktops.

But not yet.

The Problems:
1) Misguided advocacy.
2) Tricky installation.
3) Limited support.

Ubuntu is being talked about as if it's the better installation for newbies. It's also given high marks for its default application choices. It's as free as you can get, too. But it is not at the point where you can simply hand a newbie a CD and walk away. You should also hand that newbie a list of references on learning about computer hardware and where to find general information about Linux, at the very least. Don't assume they'll know what to search for on Google. If you can't install for the newbie, I suggest you select your newbie carefully.

Which leads to how tricky installation is. I worked and worked at it. It made me feel stupid (not just ignorant). And if you look at all the posts on the forums here, you might notice that a LOT of people have problems. More than other distributions? More than Windows? I don't know, I don't care! Ubuntu has problems. Installation problems cause user dissatisfaction. Unhappiness spreads faster than happiness. Newbie selection becomes critical at this point.

With the problem of installation comes the problem of support. There are many people working on answering all the questions that arise. I have nothing but praise for all of them. But not everyone is an expert and teacher. Problems arise that are difficult. Scan the forums, see what happens. Does anyone keep track of problem resolution? Does anyone keep on cases until they are solved? Should we expect that from a community-based effort? I think so. Why not?

Personally, I am left with a semi-functional Linux that I've worked on for two weeks. That's a lot of time for me. At this point I really should have at least a functional system, perhaps one that can surf the internet and see movies, hear sounds. I don't. I know others do. So I bid Ubuntu a farewell for now, and good luck. Perhaps in a couple of years we'll meet again.

{I hope someone takes this to heart and helps improve things. That's all I'm trying to do. The other, short-sighted ones may now flame me.}

[tseliot]

Can you make some examples of what you mean for tricky installation? I don't understand.

Do you mean the lack of an eye candy installer?

[NateC]

I seriously find the ubuntu installation easier than windows. It's very simple, even for a newbie. I installed Gentoo in my first month of using Linux.

[xequence]

I find it easy to install... And limited support? This site has 600+ people online at a time!

Im not saying you cant like windows, or hate linux. I personally like windows XP... And some things about the other windows versions. What I dont like is microsoft. But what isnt right is when you say things that arnt right... Like limited support. The people here accually know ubuntu, they use it. Its not like a 1-800 number, which can work good, but not is some implementations. Can you think of someone telling you how to add extra repositories? Like here (http://ubuntuguide.org/#extrarepositories). The only thing I dislike about the support here is that sometimes my topic gets bumped down and people dont see it.


You should also hand that newbie a list of references on learning about computer hardware and where to find general information about Linux, at the very least.

Newbie linuxers (not a word...) can easily get into ubuntu with two sites: Ubuntuforums.org and ubuntuguide.org. (Not including downloading it from ubuntulinux.com)


Does anyone keep track of problem resolution?

There is a wiki ;)

[aerials]

What would be the ideal installation then? Of course it would be nice if you could just insert the cd, enter a username and password at some point and a few minutes later you can log in to your perfectly configured machine.
But that's not gonna happen, since there are billions of different computers out there, so that it is impossible to create an installation method that works on all of them.

What are the big obstacles in the Ubuntu installation anyway?
The only things I can imagine are the partitioning and maybe the selection of the display resolutions to be used by the xserver, since you may not expect from Joe User to know what resolution he is normally running on his 5 year old CRT monitor.

A Windows installation is way more tricky for newbies, if you ask me. I mean the basic installation you can just click through. But do you have a working operating system after that? No! First you need to install drivers for every single piece of hardware, ideally always reboot the whole system after installing one of them and hope it doesn't mess up with another device. Then you need a firewall, virus protection so you have at least a basic security and so on...

With Ubuntu (and many other distros) you just need to make a few decisions during the first minutes of the installation process and it installs you a fully featured, safe operating system.

I generally think the Ubuntu installation causes less problems than a windows installation. The number of questions asked in these forums do not have to be in relation to unsuccessful installations. If it works, you don't have to ask anything.
Maybe that's a cheap assumption, but maybe I'm right ;)
I would say many questions are about problems, that would have existed with another operating system too.

[sophtpaw]

My Goodbye to Ubuntu

{This posting will, of course, be attacked and picked to death. That is the nature of people. I'm doing my best not to unload my emotions here. I hope you, the reader, can do the same...}

Ubuntu is a wonderful idea. I truly believe it will make a large difference in the years to come. Many people in need of reliable (and free) software will use it for business and personal desktops.

But not yet.

The Problems:
1) Misguided advocacy.
2) Tricky installation.
3) Limited support.

Ubuntu is being talked about as if it's the better installation for newbies. It's also given high marks for its default application choices. It's as free as you can get, too. But it is not at the point where you can simply hand a newbie a CD and walk away. You should also hand that newbie a list of references on learning about computer hardware and where to find general information about Linux, at the very least. Don't assume they'll know what to search for on Google. If you can't install for the newbie, I suggest you select your newbie carefully.

Which leads to how tricky installation is. I worked and worked at it. It made me feel stupid (not just ignorant). And if you look at all the posts on the forums here, you might notice that a LOT of people have problems. More than other distributions? More than Windows? I don't know, I don't care! Ubuntu has problems. Installation problems cause user dissatisfaction. Unhappiness spreads faster than happiness. Newbie selection becomes critical at this point.

With the problem of installation comes the problem of support. There are many people working on answering all the questions that arise. I have nothing but praise for all of them. But not everyone is an expert and teacher. Problems arise that are difficult. Scan the forums, see what happens. Does anyone keep track of problem resolution? Does anyone keep on cases until they are solved? Should we expect that from a community-based effort? I think so. Why not?

Personally, I am left with a semi-functional Linux that I've worked on for two weeks. That's a lot of time for me. At this point I really should have at least a functional system, perhaps one that can surf the internet and see movies, hear sounds. I don't. I know others do. So I bid Ubuntu a farewell for now, and good luck. Perhaps in a couple of years we'll meet again.

{I hope someone takes this to heart and helps improve things. That's all I'm trying to do. The other, short-sighted ones may now flame me.}
You have a valid point. Others will now follow suite as have done so already and pretend, "what are you talking about?" , "i had no problem at all - real simple"

I agree that we should be able to have open and honest discussion about how it really is without being condemned as anti<whatever> pariahs. For good and bad.

That Ubuntu has problems is a fact - ok, people? I have been trying for what seems like two weeks to resolve sound issues and i'm not at the end of the tunnel yet. If i've stuck with this its because i'm committed to the vision of open-source and Ubuntu and GNU/Linux in general. But i agree with this thread that there are alot of other people out there who would be put off.
Community driven support is great but does each thread get seen through? my experience it has, but also recently i have found to my dismay that only 1 person has bothered to express any help in resolving my sound issues - where did all the experts go? I spoke to a friend who knew two people with Ubuntu who also had sound issues, one has left.

We all know the good stuff about Ubuntu, and Linux that is why we are here, but we also need to square up to the facts about what can do with improvement, otherwise we are in denial and won't be able to move forward where we'll only end up imagining Ubuntu is rather than actually getting it there,

cordially,

sophtpaw

[aysiu]

http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=58017
Just some quick responses, too:

A. Windows is not easy to install and configure.
B. I don't know about other people, but I'm not pretending Ubuntu is easy. I installed it, changed my screen resolution by editing the /etc/X11/xorg.conf file, added in some multimedia codecs by copying and pasting some commands from the Ubuntu Guide, and that's it. My computer works. It was not so easy when I installed Windows, believe me.

[xequence]

That Ubuntu has problems is a fact - ok, people?

Yea, but limited support isnt one of them ;)

And im not all "ubuntu rules, windows sucks!" because I do post about the fact I like the .exe installers in windows, very much.

[aysiu]

Yea, but limited support isnt one of them ;)

And im not all "ubuntu rules, windows sucks!" because I do post about the fact I like the .exe installers in windows, very much. I agree. When I posted about my Amarok drag-and-drop questions in LinuxQuestions, I got no responses at all, despite their automatic bump system for threads with no replies. Here, I got a lot of people trying to help. Sure, there's a limit to what people know, but generally if you have a question, it gets answered.

[aysiu]

That Ubuntu has problems is a fact - ok, people? Can you point me to a single post where anyone has ever said "Ubuntu is perfect. There's no way it can be improved?"

[LongTooth]

Teapot, I couldn't disagree with you more. As a Linux user since '99, Ubuntu has been a revelation to me. A saviour. Nay, a God! of the distros.

I'm the kind of person that seems to hit a wall no matter what I try. I achieve a certain level of expertise and can't get passed it. The same applied to Linux. Ubuntu has takened me passed that. I've got a solid, fully functional OS on my PC. And I'm very happy with it. Installing and adding programs couldn't be easier. As a result of my using Ubuntu, I've gone on to installing and playing with Debian Sarge netinstall and DebianPure netinstall.

As for this forum: It has the one thing that maked it unique amoung fourms. And that is the Starter Guide. With all the tips and howtos in one location, working and tweaking your system to perfection is at your finger tips. To say nothing about the Customization Tips & Tricks in the forum itself. Wish other forums were set up as well as this one.

No sir, I couldn't disagree with you more. But good luck in your Linux journey. And I do hope you stay with Linux. Much potential.

[Brunellus]

I'm sorry to see that things didn't work for you.

Problem resolution and follow-up-- You ask whether or not this can be expected of the community. Well, in a word, it can't. "The Community" is made up of people who, to a greater or lesser extent, have lives: school, work, families, their own computers, whatever. It's a tall order to expect *somebody* to stick with your particular problem until it's *resolved* without any expectation of return whatsoever. This is Linux for Human Beings, not Linux for Saints.

The problems are being worked on actively. There are countless components out there, all of which need to work all the time. You can't expect any OS to work with *all* of them. The only worry-free route is Apple's closed-shop approach: all their stuff works beautifully because they only have to worry about supporting Apple.

Misguided activism-- Here, I agree. It's rather like the old Maoist cussword of "Left Adventurism," usually defined as "seizing power before the masses have been awakened." I think a lot of newbies are sold a bill of goods when they're presented with Ubuntu as a "newbie distribution." In my opinion, it is *not*. It's a well-built (mostly) distribution, yes, but not for utter newbies.

A graphical installer would help people feel better, but it wouldn't address the fundamental issues of hardware support and detection.

If you need to go, then go. Nobody should be compelled to use software which doesn't work for them--heck, isn't that why Free software exists?

Don't take this as the Definitive Final Word on the state of the kernel, the OS, or even the community. There's a lot of work going on. Check back in a bit and see how we've been doing.

[Buffalo Soldier]

This posting will, of course, be attacked and picked to death.Noo... not to death. But to near-death perhaps. Even if its picked to death, it will be swiftly resuscitated and then picked to death again... and the cycle repeats... many times...

I'm letting others have a go at it first... while I'm sharpening some bamboo sticks.

[skirkpatrick]

Far from being a Linux guru, I have to say that my installation experience was very pleasant. But that doesn't mean that everybody has that kind of experience due to the fact that everyone has different hardware. The only problem I had on my first install attempt was because I tried to be smart about the way I did it :)

As far as support on these forums, I don't know about anybody else but whenever I've responsed to someone's request, I have always subscribed to the thread so that I received emails whenever someone post back to that thread. I would delete that subscription once I hadn't seen any activity on that thread in 3 or 4 weeks.

[aysiu]

Misguided activism-- Here, I agree. It's rather like the old Maoist cussword of "Left Adventurism," usually defined as "seizing power before the masses have been awakened." I think a lot of newbies are sold a bill of goods when they're presented with Ubuntu as a "newbie distribution." In my opinion, it is *not*. It's a well-built (mostly) distribution, yes, but not for utter newbies. I, too, was mis-"sold" on Ubuntu (especially before finding out about the Ubuntu Guide). It was one of the first distros I tried, and before I embraced the command-line, it was frustrating. Mepis is far easier a transition. After a while, though, I got tired of Mepis' bloat, and Ubuntu was a wonderful second distro.

[skoal]

[...]
The Problems:
1) Misguided advocacy.
2) Tricky installation.
3) Limited support.
as for your well constructed thoughts,

1. I disagree, in part. Advocacy groups come in various flavours, much like ice cream. The Winillas are just enthusiastic, and understandably so. The other distro rocky roaders (like myself) have just cause for celebration as well. Both flavours have bland (or rough) history in prior distro use, supporting that advocacy. However, you do have Chocohates (aka Gates) and Neopolitan (>insert bias here<) advocacy groups here too, but to each his own. They have equally subjective reasons. In the end, what does it really matter?

2. I disagree. Have you ever installed Windows? Once you get past either OS partitioning pages, it's cake a la mode. Granted, post install on Ubuntu can be a chore (to some), see 3.

3. I strongly agree! Booyah! However, taken in context with the winillas. I've long since believed Canonical should hire a full time Documentor to support that genre - trolling these forums, providing assitance when possible, and constructing _definitive_, non redundant, organized wiki entries based on said forum experiences. User supplied wiki(s) are welcome, but sorely lacking in professionalism (when taken in contrast with Windows in general, or even their "Knowledge Base" articles). But that's quite a comparison, and probably unfair to those hard at work on the Wiki. The forums are helpful, especially to newcomers (not newbies <- distasteful term in light of it's origins). They even have a "Beginners" section, which forces us old timers into "shoeless egg shell mode" while offering assistance. However, our free help is just that, free. The employed Documenter would outlive his utility once Ubuntu finally reaches it's goals, those set forth by devs and passed down in stone tablets by Mark. Of course, you always have this (http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/supportoptions/paidsupport/) optoin, much like talking to a dedicated Dell employee.

* I understand your frustration, but no need to give up just yet. You won't find any linux prima donnas here! Quite the contrary (http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/conduct). Send me a private message if necessary, and I'll step you through the remaining problems you're having (via gAIM or other means). Until Ubuntu can finish adding chocolate chip GUI alternatives to all the various flavours using Ubuntu, we have what we have. And that's pretty tasty as is! mmmm...

\\//_

[Kvark]

The problem here is that installing a whole operating system with drivers, programs, configuration and all is a major operation that the average user often runs into trouble with. That is why Windows comes preinstalled with drivers and everything.

Ubuntu is a good newbie distro. It is easy to use. It just needs to either come preinstalled or be installed by a tech savvy guy, like any other OS.

That you couldn't get someone more experienced to install it for you is your problem, not Ubuntu's problem. I understand that it is frustrating for you to face these problems and try to figure things out on your own. Hope you sometime in the future can get decent help with setting things up cause it really is easy to use after it's properly set up.

[macgyver2]

That Ubuntu has problems is a fact - ok, people?

....

We all know the good stuff about Ubuntu, and Linux that is why we are here, but we also need to square up to the facts about what can do with improvement, otherwise we are in denial and won't be able to move forward where we'll only end up imagining Ubuntu is rather than actually getting it there,
The way you make it sound here...is like no one wants to admit that there are any problems. Have you ever observed any of the conversations that take place in any of the development related IRC channels? Those involved with development are always talking about what is working, what's not working, what can be improved, and how to improve it.

On a related note...the forums aren't the place to go if you really want to get involved with talking about improvement. The devs don't spend all day looking through these forums to see what people are having trouble with. They don't have the time (because they're busy working on improving things for the next release).

Now, if I saw someone involved in development say that Ubuntu doesn't have any problems I'd be concerned. But if just a random forum user says that, well yes, they should probably be corrected. However, that random forum users think in such a manner really has no impact on the ability of the distribution to move forward.

[macgyver2]

...and constructing _definitive_, non redundant, organized wiki entries based on said forum experiences.
The problem here is that so many people just don't look at the wiki (or search the forums, people!) before posting. I've seen so many new threads that have either already been answered elsewhere in the forums or that have an answer that is already posted in the wiki.

"'Scuse me while I whip this [old cliche] out...": You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

Wikis are great things, but they're only effective at providing information if the people who need the information actually look in the wiki!

[aysiu]

Wikis are great things, but they're only effective at providing information if the people who need the information actually look in the wiki! In all fairness, I found the Wiki to be a disorganized mess. The Ubuntu Guide is a much better help, as are Google searches that are prefaced by site:ubuntuforums.org.


But if just a random forum user says that, well yes, they should probably be corrected. However, that random forum users think in such a manner really has no impact on the ability of the distribution to move forward. I still have yet to see anyone say that Ubuntu is without flaw. Sounds like a straw man to me. In fact, look at the thread we had on "what do you like least about Ubuntu?" (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=57994)

[PatrickMay16]

My Goodbye to Ubuntu

{This posting will, of course, be attacked and picked to death. That is the nature of people. I'm doing my best not to unload my emotions here. I hope you, the reader, can do the same...}

Ubuntu is a wonderful idea. I truly believe it will make a large difference in the years to come. Many people in need of reliable (and free) software will use it for business and personal desktops.

But not yet.

The Problems:
1) Misguided advocacy.
2) Tricky installation.
3) Limited support.

YAFAFAFAFAFAFA
Based on your logic, Windows isn't for the newbie either. The newbie you're talking about could certainly not install and configure windows on its own.

[skoal]

The problem here is that so many people just don't look at the wiki (or search the forums, people!) before posting.!
Absolutely! No disagreement there. However, the best way to change sloppy habits is to provide concise alternatives. I remember not more than just a month or two ago, the Wiki was so convoluded with so much information, it took forever just to sort through several unorganized links. That has drastically changed of late, and I tip my hat to those who contributed. It is still far from the comparison I drew earlier. Before that Wiki change, it was no more effective than using the search button, returning 500 keyword matches to such vague subject lines reading "Ubuntu" or "Help" or (as I raise my hand) "for Kopete's sake!"...

Case in point, at one time I used the "Index of Howtos" religiously. Now, you need an index for an index. It reminds me a lot of past Wiki structure. Now you have 5 "page downs" @ 1024 vertical just to reach the end of that index, and you cannot layer multiple "nvidia" related html links in vbulletin that I'm aware of...

The purpose of this thread (at least for me) is resolving issues from _their_ perspective, not mine.

\\//_

[xequence]

The problem here is that installing a whole operating system with drivers, programs, configuration and all is a major operation that the average user often runs into trouble with. That is why Windows comes preinstalled with drivers and everything.

Windows only comes with specific drivers for your system if you use the recovery CD that came with it, specifically designed my the manufacturer for your computer.

In all fairness ubuntu, not specifically designed for my system did better on my hardware then my windows recovery CD that came with it in many places, including these:

1. It got a higher screen resolution then windows
2. It didnt need any other software to use my ethernet card or cable modem... Windows needs that stuff.

[Geekboy]

In all fairness, I found the Wiki to be a disorganized mess. The Ubuntu Guide is a much better help, as are Google searches that are prefaced by site:ubuntuforums.org.
I totally agree. That wiki drives me nuts. I rather use the forums and the Guide.


Based on your logic, Windows isn't for the newbie either. The newbie you're talking about could certainly not install and configure windows on its own.
I also agree with this. I doubt a newbie would find installing Windows on a blank PC with just a WIndows XP disk a piece of cake. I'm not talking about a PC with a preconfigured image that the user just has to unpack. Plus then that newbie would still need to install Office and all the other software that Ubuntu comes with.

I found this install to be very easy. I don't think a graphical installer would really help. It may look nicer, but that's about it.

Plus you really can't beat this community, It rocks! :)

[aysiu]

I also agree with this. I doubt a newbie would find installing Windows on a blank PC with just a WIndows XP disk a piece of cake. I'm not talking about a PC with a preconfigured image that the user just has to unpack. Plus then that newbie would still need to install Office and all the other software that Ubuntu comes with. Just a little bit of trivia: when my wife and I bought a Dell laptop a couple of years ago, we got a restore disk. I recently went back to Dell just to check things out, and now they make you pay extra for the restore CD!

PC Restore recovery solution by Symantec® comes pre-installed on your computer's hard drive. If you require CDs to perform advanced tasks choose the CD for the operating system you selected above.
None
Microsoft® Windows® XP Home Edition backup CD [add $10]
Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional backup CD [add $10]

[xequence]

Just a little bit of trivia: when my wife and I bought a Dell laptop a couple of years ago, we got a restore disk. I recently went back to Dell just to check things out, and now they make you pay extra for the restore CD!

PC Restore recovery solution by Symantec® comes pre-installed on your computer's hard drive. If you require CDs to perform advanced tasks choose the CD for the operating system you selected above.
None
Microsoft® Windows® XP Home Edition backup CD [add $10]
Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional backup CD [add $10]


Is that a question? :P

I think newer systems dont come with restore CDs... I know with my family computer we had to use 6 CD-rs to fit XP onto it with a compaq thingy. (it was a compaq computer...)

Odd how 6 CDs were needed yet windows XP can fit in one and if you take out all the bloatware and stuff it can fit to a 183 MB ISO...

[poofyhairguy]

My Goodbye to Ubuntu

I hope you give another Linux a chance.



Ubuntu is being talked about as if it's the better installation for newbies. It's also given high marks for its default application choices. It's as free as you can get, too. But it is not at the point where you can simply hand a newbie a CD and walk away. You should also hand that newbie a list of references on learning about computer hardware and where to find general information about Linux, at the very least. Don't assume they'll know what to search for on Google. If you can't install for the newbie, I suggest you select your newbie carefully.

Thats why in this thread I suggest setting up Ubuntu for new users:

http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=58862&highlight=windows




But not everyone is an expert and teacher.

Which is expected because no one is paid for their time.


Problems arise that are difficult.

Sometimes too difficult for the helpers, but that can't be avoided.


Scan the forums, see what happens.

I do everyday. More than you. I promise. And I see many questions answered.



Does anyone keep track of problem resolution?

Yep. Me and many others do. We help till we can't anymore.



Does anyone keep on cases until they are solved?

I have for more times than I could quickly count (more than 100).



Should we expect that from a community-based effort?

Its a community effort. There should be no expectations or demands....just volunteered resources.



I think so.

You think like a customer. No one pays for Ubuntu. No one is paid to help people on the forum. The people that do it do it because they are nice. They want to help. It feels good. But when you have a life/job/girlfriend/etc. its can't be that big of priority.



Why not?

The problem is your perspective. You want to approach Ubuntu like a product...or a consumer good. Its closer to charity in many ways. You are not charged for it, or any help you are given. And the freeness isn't for some bait and switch thing.....free in a capitalist mindset almost does not apply. Its different.

You are not a customer. No one that works on Ubuntu or helps here gets economic benefit (or any economic incentive) for your use. Instead its more like you are part of a family.

When I help someone on the forum, I think "I'm trying to help my Ubuntu brother/sister." Look at my high post count. I somehow feel a strong bond to this family, so I help a lot. Thats my motivation. Thats the only motivation we have to help you. No economic motivation (like with a product like SUSE, Windows, OSX) applies. Think about it.....thats a pretty weak link isn't it? I'm amazed so many people help, they have no reason to. As someone once said "its just a freaking OS," there are a billion bigger things in life.

If you don't get the help you need, sorry. Just as we don't get a huge benefit from your arrival, we barely feel your loss. If you would have gotten involved and left an impact (like jdong or smoon) we might have changed some things for you, or helped out more to pay you back. But you were just a new user. Your biggest contribution is a post that insults me in a deep way (seeing as how I have helped over 1000 people on this forum). It hurts my image of the family. Makes me want to help less. Thats your effect.

And thats how the system works. Its an organism or a family, not a group of consumers or customers. So expectations should be left at the door.

My motto for the forum is "you get what you pay for, and hopefully a little more." Think about that.....

[moopere]

Folks, folks, folks,

I don't know how we always seem to end up having conversations like this in Linux (and most other forums for most other OS's).

No matter how easy/hard an operating system is made to install there are always people who are going to have problems. Lets live with it, move on and stop complaining.

I can't repair a Keith Black 426 Hemi, but I'm not bitching to the Engine builder...I get a mechanic.

Same with computer software....can't install it because you don't possess the required skills? Well, fiddle around and learn something if you like, but if you don't like and just _can't_ work it out then call in a consultant - thats how these guys make their living after all.

Can't afford that? Buy a system with Linux preinstalled then.

Geez, I used to make a tidy living helping home users install Windows (years ago). Nothing hard about that believe me, but I had a skill set the users didn't have and one they didn't want to bother learning.

Ubuntu (of any variety) has got one of the most effective and trouble free installers of any operating system out there today - and thats a fact you can take to the bank.

This attitude of "I can't get it working so the product is crap" is a load of rubbish. A gazillion people have ubuntu running, most I'd suggest have most/all of the system running quite well and without fuss.

Cheers,
Craig

[byen]

well...everything I wanted to say has already been said here... so there is only one thing I would suggest and hope. Please dont let your experience with one distro effect your opinion abt linux as a whole. In my Opinion, Ubuntu is the best... and this forum is the engine that runs this distro...but as I have learned from experience...all distro's are not for all users..so keep an open mind and try others as well. For Instance Ive tried fedora,suse & mandriva before Ubuntu but for some reason Ubuntu just worked... I know tons of people who may like the other ones that i have mentioned..but as i said...this distro is for me.

So, try some distro's out..see if it fits! goodluck..hope you have better luck!

[npaladin2000]

Ubuntu is a wonderful idea. I truly believe it will make a large difference in the years to come. Many people in need of reliable (and free) software will use it for business and personal desktops.

But not yet.

The Problems:
1) Misguided advocacy.
2) Tricky installation.
3) Limited support.



Ok, teapot, I'm going to respond to your points one at a time, and I hope you're still around to read the responses....of course, you might not be, but it'll still make me feel better. ;)



Ubuntu is being talked about as if it's the better installation for newbies. It's also given high marks for its default application choices. It's as free as you can get, too. But it is not at the point where you can simply hand a newbie a CD and walk away. You should also hand that newbie a list of references on learning about computer hardware and where to find general information about Linux, at the very least. Don't assume they'll know what to search for on Google. If you can't install for the newbie, I suggest you select your newbie carefully.


Honestly, installing ANY OS is a difficult proposition that requires more than simple basic computer knowledge. I know some people have stated "Well, the WIndows Install is HARD!"...which is true, but that doesn't make an Ubuntu install easy...EASIER isn't the same as EASY. They've automated a lot, and made it, I think, as easy as POSSIBLE, but that doesn't mean anyone can do it. So by "newbie" we mean "newbie to Linux" rather than someone new to computers in general who might not know the difference between a USB and an RJ-45 or something. Everything in perspective. ANYONE installing ANY computer OS should have a certain level of hardware skill. Ubuntu's is lower than needed for a Windows install, but that's not the same as not needing any knoweldge at all.



With the problem of installation comes the problem of support. There are many people working on answering all the questions that arise. I have nothing but praise for all of them. But not everyone is an expert and teacher. Problems arise that are difficult. Scan the forums, see what happens. Does anyone keep track of problem resolution? Does anyone keep on cases until they are solved? Should we expect that from a community-based effort? I think so. Why not?


Ok, you're under the impression that this forum works like a paid help desk. Sorry, but it doesn't (I know, I used to work at one). No one here is being paid; we're here to help because we want to help. Some of us are even professionals at that sort of thing in real life, but this is a volunteer community, with no official training and a wide variety of specializations, experiences, and skill levels. The nice part is, no one is reading from a script after saying "Hello, I'm John Smith" with a horribly obvious Indian accent (Apologies to anyone here from India that might be annoyed at me; I know those of you that do this are usually ordered to do so by your employers and you don't have much choice. It's nothing personal. But no one in the states is buying it.)

Anyway, where was I? Oh yes, there IS an official support option, and that would be the bugzilla bug registration. That is ONLY for bugs, rather than helpdesk-type stuff, but there is ticketing, incident tracking, and all the other stuff. I don't know how well a bugzilla setup would work for such things as community support for general help-desk issues...personally, I like the free-form discussion of a forum since you can get a variety of levels of input. But one day someone might try to apply a bugzilla setup to something like that...I'd be willing to participate, just to see how it works out.

See, when worded properly, it DOES come off as a good suggestion. But you came off (maybe unintentionally, but even so) berating a volunteer community for not doing the job it was hired for or something. Remember, this is a community, not a help desk. We help people out when we can how we can. Usually the quality of help is better. But no one's going to fire us if the customer we're talking to gets us mad and we decide to go off on him. At least, I don't THINK anyone's going to fire us....


Personally, I am left with a semi-functional Linux that I've worked on for two weeks. That's a lot of time for me. At this point I really should have at least a functional system, perhaps one that can surf the internet and see movies, hear sounds. I don't. I know others do. So I bid Ubuntu a farewell for now, and good luck. Perhaps in a couple of years we'll meet again.

I just went back and had a look at all of your problems, and they came down to one problem: your video. You had a poorly supported video card. That accounts for EVERY problem you had listed, including most of the trouble you had with the installer. Your video card is not supported with a default install by the included sis driver (i'm not sure it's supported at all, even with the latest one. As you yourself said, it's not on the HCL. Honestly, the installer made the best decision it could as to a compatible driver...you just didn't listen to it. ;) It's a little understandable since there's a thing right there that says "SiS." But the VESA driver would have functioned for what you wanted (2D, no 3D acceleration), you just chose not to listen when the installer offered you the most compatible driver choice available (Which it did, rather than continuously trying to get an incompatible driver to function...the installer's auto-detection REALLY IS very good). In other words, your problems were not caused by the driver, but by USER ERROR...in other words, yourself. However, since you wanted advanced functions, you were given the exact steps to take after installing a new video card, and a recommendation of a chipset, and a couple of brands, and places to buy them. You were offered the solution to your problems. Yet, on leaving the forums, you post a farewell message that dings the community for not following through and solving people's problems. ](*,)

[cyrix]

I think Ubuntu has been easy to use BUT when the documentation shows me how to install something and the packages are not available there's not much I can do... I can **** and moan and still get NO responce to if/when the issue will get ever get fixed. \\:D/

I can do it the old fashioned way but why? You created the installer programs for a reason right?

I learned a long time ago from a Colonel named Burgess. He told me, Staff Sergeant Sheline, one OH SHIP can kill all of those atta boys.

[sophtpaw]

The way you make it sound here...is like no one wants to admit that there are any problems. Have you ever observed any of the conversations that take place in any of the development related IRC channels? Those involved with development are always talking about what is working, what's not working, what can be improved, and how to improve it.

On a related note...the forums aren't the place to go if you really want to get involved with talking about improvement. The devs don't spend all day looking through these forums to see what people are having trouble with. They don't have the time (because they're busy working on improving things for the next release).

Now, if I saw someone involved in development say that Ubuntu doesn't have any problems I'd be concerned. But if just a random forum user says that, well yes, they should probably be corrected. However, that random forum users think in such a manner really has no impact on the ability of the distribution to move forward.

Fair enough, i take your point. And i was relating to those enthusiastic rockers or random user you call em. If things are being worked on, then great, and i believe they are.
And one of the things i hope they work on is the sound. I am not the only person to have experienced issues relating to sound. And i have had surprisingly little support or even interest shown, although it seems hundreds have read the thread relating to my problem. That has been a disappointment. Instead i find people saying how it is all great and how their computer works, with a tone of defensiveness, didn't someone already say they're going to sharpen their teeth! - i just wish they would spend less time on threads like these, giving rebuttals and what not and back actually helping guys like me. But as someone else has pointed out; this is Ubuntu for human beings not saints. and random users are to be ignored rather than corrected. But i have heard a tone of defensiveness in so

I have been one of those enthusiastic Ubuntu rockers, all high-octane-newbie energy and no actual grounding in understanding, although i've helped where i could with people who knew even less than me, so as to free up the energy of those who know more to answer the more difficult questions. So, i do love Ubuntu and have been a general enthusiast. i did not find install hard. I followed the guide and installed repositories and codecs and what not and tweaked my system, despite little know how, by combination of the guide and help here in the forums and irc, and ease of use of Synaptic, i got my computer to a state that i was happy. But i also have run into sound trouble above and beyond a simple install ever since i brought kde in and kde apps, which is a problem and that is a fact. It is also a fact that alot of people have sound issues with Ubuntu for whatever reason. I'm glad to hear that there are alot of people behind the scenes quitely doing things to constantly improve things, because i don't intend to go anywhere fast and i still think i'll work it out and if it takes time that is worth the price for an otherwise in everyotherway great distro. I just wanted my frustration to be heard and acknowledged, and to be honest i have thought of going somewhere more stable like sarge if that is what i'm looking for, but not yet anyways.

Thats All Folks :grin:

Viva the GNU generation


--
sophtpaw

[sophtpaw]

Wikis are great things, but they're only effective at providing information if the people who need the information actually look in the wiki![/QUOTE]


Again, finding the relevant wiki is not always as easy as it may sound. I've been sent to a couple wrong wikis in my time here and followed them in my ignorance, innocence and hope, nay desperation (like a fly being told, "hey, you can get out by using this pane of glass here." and fluttering for teh sum total of total energy expenditure and 0% gain. Wikis are great but they are not everything. Someone has said this before too wikis need a wiki to guide people through.

[a-nubi-s]

Referring to points from original post.

1. Yes, Ubuntu has been mislabeled. IMO no Gnome distro (ATM) should be thought of as "newbie".

2. Yes, compared to some distros (Mepis, PCLinuxOS) the installation could be seen as tricky.

3. No, if you really need that sort of support, it is available and they will stay with you until the problem is resolved. But you must pay for it.

teapot, try PCLinuxOS or Mepis. They are LIVE CDs with everything you need, very easy graphical installs that take about 30 mins. and fully functional out of the box.

[tseliot]

Referring to points from original post.

1. Yes, Ubuntu has been mislabeled. IMO no Gnome distro (ATM) should be thought of as "newbie".

2. Yes, compared to some distros (Mepis, PCLinuxOS) the installation could be seen as tricky.

3. No, if you really need that sort of support, it is available and they will stay with you until the problem is resolved. But you must pay for it.

teapot, try PCLinuxOS or Mepis. They are LIVE CDs with everything you need, very easy graphical installs that take about 30 mins. and fully functional out of the box.
I completely agree with you. And I've tried PClinuxOS, it's a very good distro to start with.

[essexman]

I completely agree with you. And I've tried PClinuxOS, it's a very good distro to start with.
I haven't ruled out trying other distros but I' sticking with Ubuntu because of the ease in setting up RT2500 wireless on my Desktop and Linksys 8180 card on my laptop. As for ease of use, it is down to the individual. My girlfriend instantly accepted that programmes are started from the top of the screen rather than the bottom. No big deal.

The main difference is the install. Other distros are far more comforting and informative during install. It is bizzare, but I do think that Newbies would be happier with a series of splash screens saying: "Ubuntu is loading", "Here is what you will soon be able to do...", and "You can browse the internet with ease". Mepis is the most comforting , because you can see that it works well with your set up (or not) before installing.

The ultimate distro only has to be instlled once.

[rolfotto]

Hi Teapot.

I appreciate your situation as unique to yourself, I had the complete opposite experience with Linux.

For me, it's easier than Windows plus you get a lot more free tools which the Windows world makes you pay for.......

But then my experience is unique to me too.

Sorry to see you go. But if you ever try Linux/Ubuntu again - I found that many people fail not because Linux is so hard but because they have a Windows mindset.

If you look at Windows - many things are hard and unintuitive there too. And sometimes Windows changes settings around for no reason which Linux usually doesn't - that can cause frustration.

My point is that there is always investment in changing over to a new OS. With Linux, the investment tends to be upfront, with getting hardware to work, to get acquanted with the Unix way of things, and to get things to work just so. But once that is done, the investment in stuff that is already done and working tends to be minimal. It keeps on working, as you set it and like you set it.

With Windows, the investment can be minimal upfront - depending on your hardware. But over an extended period, the investment can take hidden chunks of that you won't notice too much but still eats at your time and resources.

Installing programs that won't uninstall correctly later on. Malware/spyware and all the spyware detectors that have to be run. Antivirus software that has to be run. Programs that cause themselves to boot at start-up even though you tried everything to stop said behavior. Paying for programs that did relatively little tasks (ftp clients, reading DBs, a better image manipulation software than GIMP). The default of IE and Outlook that can't be ripped out. All these things eat at the user's time, patience, or resources in the Windows world. And it's generally accepted to just "deal" with it. Or you have to take the time to really learn the system, just like Linux to deal with it.

Anyway, that's my experience with Linux and Windows. Ubuntu isn't perfect nor is it particularly the most friendly a distro can be, yet it's the community and sites like ubuntuguide.org that make it outstanding in my eyes. And distrowatch.com shows it's popularity so it has something going for it.

OTOH, this is like the central meeting point of Ubuntu users - so you do see a lot of problems. I'd imagine if Microsoft's forum (if they have one), you'd also see a flood of posters with problems or annoyances. I know I see enough of this same stuff at the Apple forums......

And also, where does the blame stop at Ubuntu and start? Windows ships with a barebones system (unless your vendor overloads with mostly undesirable bloatware which is another issue) - you don't get a decent image manipulation program, you get paint. With Ubuntu you can use Gimp. With Windows, you don't get a bittorent client, with Ubuntu, Gnome has one...... Ubuntu also provides an office suite, cd ripper, and other things off the bat that Windows doesn't. And all those downloads from the repositories for free. Even though these tools aren't directly connected with Ubuntu, if things go wrong - users will tend to complain here first. In the Windows world, if it's not made by microsoft, you would tend to go to the developer of the software first.

Anyway - people should choose what's right for themselves - but IMO if they want to install Linux, they should be prepared for a learning curve and the CLI. But I feel they'll get amply rewarded later on.........

[a-nubi-s]

By all means essexman, do stick around if it's working for you. It's just that some people oddly feel when it's not working they must stick it out to the bitter end. That isn't right. teapot spent 2 weeks on what could have taken half an hour.

If the hat fits, wear it. If not, find another. That simple really.

[nocturn]

This kind of post is what I call a "hit and run complaint".

There were some vague complaints posted and no further replies.
Ubuntu is not perfect, nothing is. The community tries to help out and succeeds very well at this considering the fact that when you buy from something like microsoft and get stuck, there is *no* support (for free that is).

So, moving on...

[Lord Illidan]

Do you think that we are all a bunch of linux zealots and geeks who worship Linux and Ubuntu?
We are not. We are ordinary mortals, and we are willing to admit Linux and Ubuntu have problems. Even Microsoft Windows has problems.

But I would like to know, for example, why you are going to just quit after 2 a miserable 2 weeks of using Ubuntu. I have been trying to use Linux for 1 and 1/2 years, switching between distros, Fedora, Mandrake, Suse, whatever, and finally, I settled on Ubuntu. Had I lost courage during the first 2 weeks, I would have just thrown down everything and I wouldn't be here now.

Say which problems we have and we will try to help. Ubuntu's support is excellent, nay, legendary.

The installation. I have had no problems whatsoever. Maybe it is your graphics card, in which case, you should change it to vesa. Linux driver support is not so good, yes, but that is because hardware manufacturers refuse to supply drivers for a minority, with the exception of NVIDIA.


Ubuntu is not perfect. No one said it is. It is not the perfect newcomer's distro, but it is trying to be. Give it a chance, persevere, and it will be. Whining does not help anything..

[a-nubi-s]

OT - avatar looks great now Lord Illidan :)

[npaladin2000]

It WAS his graphics card....the installer correctly decided the VESA driver was the most compatible, but since his chip was made by SiS, he decided to try the SiS driver (without checking to see if that driver is compatible with his video chip). When that didn't work he was given instructions on how to use dpkg -reconfigure and had a couple of video cards recommended to him.

Basically, the installer's junk because he didn't trust it, and we're not good tech support because we couldn't get a compatible driver for his video card out of the ether or something.

I wish him luck reinstalling Windows onto his PC, and would like to know what video driver Microsoft recommends by default. And I hope someone steals all of his seperate driver discs. ;)

Thing is, I'm sure he learned from this attempt, and next time he tries (whether it be this or another Linux distro) I'm sure he'll start off a bit better informed. The question is whether he'll find a community that's more friendly, or less so.

[a-nubi-s]

Then teapot would have been better off with a Live CD installer like PCLinuxOS or Mepis. Shame that, oh well.

[macgyver2]

Just a little bit of trivia: when my wife and I bought a Dell laptop a couple of years ago, we got a restore disk. I recently went back to Dell just to check things out, and now they make you pay extra for the restore CD!

PC Restore recovery solution by Symantec® comes pre-installed on your computer's hard drive. If you require CDs to perform advanced tasks choose the CD for the operating system you selected above.
None
Microsoft® Windows® XP Home Edition backup CD [add $10]
Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional backup CD [add $10]
Yeah, when I bought my Fujitsu several years ago it was the same thing...a separate partition with the recovery image on it. No CDs whatsoever. Really steams me that I paid for something that I never even used. I never even booted into windows, never opened the wrapping on the shiny certificate thing. Just formatted the drive and installed Gentoo. I had also spent weeks prior to buying the computer on the phone with several companies trying to find one that would just sell me a freakin' computer with a blank drive! Finally I got referred to someone on a higher tier that admitted that the microsoft forced companies to sign agreements that they will ONLY sell computers with windows or else lose the ability to sell ANY computers with windows on them...so annoying!

[aysiu]

And i have had surprisingly little support or even interest shown, although it seems hundreds have read the thread relating to my problem. That has been a disappointment. Instead i find people saying how it is all great and how their computer works, with a tone of defensiveness, didn't someone already say they're going to sharpen their teeth! - i just wish they would spend less time on threads like these, giving rebuttals and what not and back actually helping guys like me. But as someone else has pointed out; this is Ubuntu for human beings not saints. and random users are to be ignored rather than corrected. But i have heard a tone of defensiveness in so You're still taking the tone of "I'm a paying customer, and you guys are the help desk." People aren't ignoring your posts about sound. Maybe people just actually don't know how to solve your sound problems. Seriously. We're just other Ubuntu users, like you. Sure, some of us have more experience than others, but no one's saying, "Ha ha ha. I know how to solve that sound problem, but I'm not going to help out in this thread. I think I'll just respond to a troll instead." If people know how to help, they will. I, for example, have no idea how to solve sound problems because I never had sound problems. I do, however, know how to solve screen resolution problems because I had screen resolution problems, so I help out with those. No one's out to get you.

[sophtpaw]

You're still taking the tone of "I'm a paying customer, and you guys are the help desk." People aren't ignoring your posts about sound. Maybe people just actually don't know how to solve your sound problems. Seriously. We're just other Ubuntu users, like you. Sure, some of us have more experience than others, but no one's saying, "Ha ha ha. I know how to solve that sound problem, but I'm not going to help out in this thread. I think I'll just respond to a troll instead." If people know how to help, they will. I, for example, have no idea how to solve sound problems because I never had sound problems. I do, however, know how to solve screen resolution problems because I had screen resolution problems, so I help out with those. No one's out to get you.


Thank you for reassuring me, because, i thought you were purposefully ignoring me, Aysiu, and had the answers but enjoyed watching me suffer day after day, while you had fun responding to trolls instead. ;-)

Agues, i find it hard to believe that none of the long time users have any knowledge of this issue and yes i became suspicious, but thx again, and i'll drop my story. I apologize if i've made you or anyone feel like this is the helpdesk, and i'm entitled to help. I appreciate that this is just another resource run by human beings who have other lives.
I just got real frustrated with this after 2 weeks and counting. If i could call some 1 800 Ubuntu premium line i'd pay anything per minute to have a techie sort me out in 5 mins.

But not to worry, worse comes to worse i'll move to another distro that wont have the issue or where there is the support for it. Maybe Mepis people say is easy and ready out of the box. I also thought Sarge might be a good stable distro, i know i like debian-style, so that narrow it down just a little.

I know that I'm not going back to Micro$oft because i don't wanna feel like a software pirate, and i don't have hundreds of dollars to spend on stuff that crashes on me and i just plain rather give my money if i had to to someone other than Bill Gates (nothing personal; he could be a great guy to have a beer with - but enough is enough!)

I just have to find my cozy niche in the GNU/Linux world. Unfortunately, although my heart is in the right place i'm computer illiterate and i don't think i'll ever get very far, and in the past that has meant, "fohget aboud 't" when it comes to Linux, but things have changed dramatically, so that people like me can start getting out of the rain and under the umbrella too.

Thx all your help and support in the past,


--
sophtpaw

[Brunellus]

Canonical offers paid ubuntu support, you know.

[sophtpaw]

Canonical offers paid ubuntu support, you know.

Right, here we go. Now, i didn't know that! Thank you for something practical to help me move along. You wouldn't have had the number handi?
I'll google or something otherwise.
thx for teh pointer !

--
sophtpaw

[poofyhairguy]

And one of the things i hope they work on is the sound. I am not the only person to have experienced issues relating to sound. And i have had surprisingly little support or even interest shown, although it seems hundreds have read the thread relating to my problem.

I promise its not because of lack of interest. Sound was a big problem in Hoary. People had problems us volunteers could not fix. In fact, to fix the problems the Ubuntu developers have had to spend a lot of time themselves (for Breezy). So if you don't get the help you want, its because the problem is to big for us low ends to deal with.

[aysiu]

Right, here we go. Now, i didn't know that! Thank you for something practical to help me move along. You wouldn't have had the number handi?
I'll google or something otherwise.
thx for teh pointer !

--
sophtpaw Here's the link for paid tech support:

http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/supportoptions/paidsupport/

Personally, I think you should just try another distro. I had a couple of distros that didn't recognize my mouse, and guess how long I stayed with those...

Mepis is wonderful. Give it a shot!

[npaladin2000]

But not to worry, worse comes to worse i'll move to another distro that wont have the issue or where there is the support for it.

That's what a lot of people do....that's what they're EXPECTED to do in many cases, and I don't care how many people from whatever distro call them "traitors" or whatever. That's how I ended up running Ubuntu in the first place....Fedora Core 4 has a hardware problem with certain (many) Palm PDAs and syncing. The devs are still working on it, but it's a necessity for me.

Since distros do things a bit differently, you may just have better luck with another distro, though I'd stick to the core distros rather than some of the more "out there" ones. Fedora 4 is one I recommend to people to try. It's a bit big, but since it has to serve as a base for both an enterprise server and a corporate workstation distro it makes a real good workstation, unlike straight Debian. And the Fedora community is about on the same level as this one, meaning pretty much at the top of the game, of course. :) (You'll find me in the Fedora forums too).

Let's see...are there any others? SUSE 9.3 didn't impress me....Mandrake/Mandriva hasn't impressed me for years...Xandros is decent but doesn't have much of a community. I had problems with Mepis and never saw much of a community for that one either. Knoppix might be worth a shot; by virtue of it being an installable LiveCD they work a LOT on automatic hardware detection, and are supposed to be top of the game there.

If you're patient and have lots of spare time Gentoo is an excellent distro to play with and learn a lot from. There NOTHING is automated (you manually install from scratch and even compile the source) but they have an excellent step-by-step (by step, by step, by step...it's long but very detailed) guide on exactly how to do it. Whether you have a working Linux at the end of it or not, it would be an excellent learning experience if you have the time (I went through it twice and thought so, even though I'd never consider the distro for daily use...it'd be a GREAT experiment for a Linux class though).

[drizek]

I seriously find the ubuntu installation easier than windows. It's very simple, even for a newbie. I installed Gentoo in my first month of using Linux.

true, but the ubuntu installer still is subpar.

I agree with the OP, ubuntu is not a good distro for noobs. however, to the OP, you should stick with it and worka around the installer and any other bad things about ubuntu like all of us here have. it is well worth it.

after a while of using linux, all the things that seem "difficult" to a noob, you can do in your sleep. this is partly why there isnt a strong noob-proofing of linux. most developers use linux so much that they dont see anyhting wrong with it anyomre.

as for moving to another distro, thats a great idea as well. thats what linux is about. no distro claims to be or even tries to be everything to all people. if ubuntu is not playing nice with your hardware or if it just doesnt fit you, its time to move along. working around some problems in distros can be more time consuming than download another distro-burn-install-repeat.

[Stormy Eyes]

Agues, i find it hard to believe that none of the long time users have any knowledge of this issue and yes i became suspicious, but thx again, and i'll drop my story.

I could be wrong, but I've had a look at all of the threads that you started in order to get help with sound, and not once did you specify what sort of hardware you were using. How in Hell's name are we supposed to help you if we don't know what kind of hardware you're using? If you're going to ask for help, you have to meet us halfway. For example; I've used Linux since 1999, but the only sound cards I've used were SoundBlaster 16, SoundBlaster Live!, and Audigy2. I don't know a damned thing about most of the sound cards on the market, but if I know which one you're using, I could at least google it and go on from there.

[ongcoo]

I just learned ubuntu for less then a month.
Personal I feel that it is rather easy to use.
Bearing in mind hardware also play a vital role in the installation.
I tried to install in a brand new Acer 3603 which is Celeron based with lots of new feature like new intel chip set 915 and Broadcom wireless chip set.
From the forums I managed to get the set on.
Now I am learning 855resolution and try to install it.
Life must go on, please don't give up.
In fact, I run a IT retail chain in Singapore. everyday, I meet lots of our customers who has faced the same.
Cheers!
Ong Chee Lip

[Wolki]

I just got real frustrated with this after 2 weeks and counting. If i could call some 1 800 Ubuntu premium line i'd pay anything per minute to have a techie sort me out in 5 mins.

OK, if you're willing to pay money I have a solution for you. It might not be the one you want, but - many experienced linux users agree - it is the easiest and maybe best one.

1) Save the money you would have paid for support.
2) Use that money to buy a sound card that works well with Linux. There's lots of cheap ones that work fine, and expensive ones too; depending on your needs. For additional cheapness grab a used one from eBay and sell your old one there.
3) Profit from having sound working out of the box with nearly any linux distribution you might want to try.

Back when i switched to linux, i couldn't find a driver for my old sound card. Spent days looking for one, found those for the chipset above and below but not for mine. The manifacturer changed names a few times by then, it was nearly impossible to google for any information and i was getting fed up. Next time i visited my parents it turns out my father bought a reserve sound card from a pc flea market that claimed linux support. I put it into my box and turned on the computer, Mandrake popped a little window up saying "New sound card found. Do you want to install it?", i said yes and everything was working at once. Haven't had a problem since, even when i upgraded my board and got one with on-board sound it worked great (maybe because both use the same kernel module, though I didn't know that then).

[mstlyevil]

I agree with the OP, ubuntu is not a good distro for noobs.

I have to disagree with you totally on that comment right there. Ubuntu is my first Linux distro and I have been at this for a week. I am not a IT guy and have only owned a computer for 4 years now. When I installed Ubuntu, I at first felt lost. After reinstalling a couple of times and reading the How to's index page and the unofficial guide, I was able to set it up, Get dvd's working, sound working, and most of my issues resolved without posting a thread asking for help. If a newbie is willing to take the time to read the forums and play with the os he will learn it in no time and will have the satisfaction of having a new Microsoft free OS. Just as it took month's for me to learn how to set up Win Xp, it only took me a week to learn and set up Ubuntu to my liking. Ubuntu does have it problems, but a little paitience is all that is needed and a little initive to take the bull by the horns and do something about the issue. I have only 2 problems left to resolve, and I intend to get them resolved instead of throwing my hands in the air and saying awe shucks, ubuntu sucks because it is not 100 % perfect. If I had that attitude, i would've thrown my pc out the window 4 years ago. ](*,)

[aysiu]

I agree with you, and that was my experience, too, but generally newbies don't have the go-to attitude that you or I have. Plus, a lot of newbies insist on doing everything the GUI way (including configuring), and for that Mepis is better.

[npaladin2000]

I agree with you, and that was my experience, too, but generally newbies don't have the go-to attitude that you or I have. Plus, a lot of newbies insist on doing everything the GUI way (including configuring), and for that Mepis is better.

I think we really need to define "n00b" a little more clearly. Someone can be Windows proficient but a n00b to Linux....then again they could be a n00b to computers in general. Personally I think the second category has a better shot at doing well with Linux. The Windows guys want GUI config tools, because for the most part you can't do a stinking thing at a Windows CLI (really...there isn't a lot...you're FORCED into the GUI for the most part), so naturally everything should be done in a GUI. That's naturall..it's a bit of a jump.

[poofyhairguy]

Personally I think the second category has a better shot at doing well with Linux.

Agreed. the less someone knows WIndows, the better.

[rgsproductions]

I think Ubuntu is a very good distro for new people. Most of my experience is in windows. I started with Caldera and mandrake linux and gave up very soon with hardware issues. About a year ago, I did Xandros 3.2 and that got me back in linux. I was unhappy with the updates and program choices. Xandros was very good though. I found Ubuntu was very easy to install from both alternative and live cd on two very different computers. I had one small partition issue and one nvidia issue. Ubuntu was installed, updated and running in less than two hours. I have dual boot xp and Ubuntu on one drive and back up copy and second Ubuntu test and destroy set up on a second drive. All issues were answered fast by the forums and it sparked me to get deeper into linux. I have found my dealings with Ubuntu very positive and will continue to use Ubuntu as my main operating system for a long time to come.

[GuitarHero]

Glad you feel that way, but why did you dig up a year-old topic?

[rgsproductions]

Sorry, was just looking arounr adn did not read the dates.

[Derek Djons]

It's too bad Ubuntu Linux isn't working quite the way you have expected. I don't find that a reason to stab your post to death. But I do want to say something which is typical in common!

People want easy support. Computer manufacturers offer that since somebody bought a computer from them. Everybody knows also that Microsoft doesn't have any support if comes to trouble. The PC manufacturer is there for the troubleshooting (logical in my opinion!). But as soon as people hear it will cost them money they are disappointed. They don't seem to understand that the chance of Windows breaking itself is very small. There's a big difference between installed drivers which fail and installing some software which breaks your system. They blame Microsoft, the PC manufacturer and what not!

When people hear about a free Operating System they truly want to try it. But when they discover they have to do some effort to solve some problems it's immediately over. It's not easy, it's not ready it lacks!

So both solutions suck! But it's always the GNU/Linux distribution which is considered as the worst of both. People seem to like more paying and bitching about warranty and price.

Please don't take this personal theapot, I'm not referring to you as such a user! It's just a piece of generic / common info I wanted share with you all.

[mogwai]

I have spotted some misconceptions in your statements, teapot.
Have you tried Dapper Drake (Ubuntu 6.06 LTS)?
It has come a long way since the last version. It has a graphical installer (which is what I think you were talking about when you mentioned the tricky install).

How much effort did you put into trying to learn? By the sounds of it, not too much.

Personally, I am left with a semi-functional Linux that I've worked on for two weeks. That's a lot of time for me. At this point I really should have at least a functional system, perhaps one that can surf the internet and see movies, hear sounds.

Have you seen the 'Easy Ubuntu (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=84742)' and/or the 'Automatix (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=80295)' projects?

My question to you is:
Would someone who has never seen MS Windows be struggling as well? How about someone who has never used a computer? Would they be better off using Windows or Ubuntu?

The answer is: It wouldn't matter! They both take a lot of effort to learn.
Switching from Windows to Linux and then saying "It isn't easy" is, IMHO, either stupidity or sheer laziness. Of course it is going to take time and effort learning the new system, espcially when switching from something that is very familiar.

Take your time before delivering ultimatums, and put some real effort into learnig and understanding, and you will reap the rewards.

[bruenig]

Which leads to how tricky installation is. I worked and worked at it. It made me feel stupid (not just ignorant). And if you look at all the posts on the forums here, you might notice that a LOT of people have problems. More than other distributions? More than Windows? I don't know, I don't care! Ubuntu has problems. Installation problems cause user dissatisfaction. Unhappiness spreads faster than happiness. Newbie selection becomes critical at this point.


Got to agree with you there, I hate the graphical install. I loved the old textual install but then again that is why they have the alternate cd.

[BuffaloX]

Too bad with these hardware problems.

2 weeks ago I made a post, concerning mobo with SIS chipset, which didn't work even with Nvidea graphics adapter. The graphics adapter worked with ubuntu in a VIA based motherboard.
The SIS board had worked with ubuntu 5.1. :-k

I think there's a problem with some of the SIS chipset drivers in Ububtu.
And why has ubuntu 6.06 problems with relatively new hardware, that worked on 5.1? :confused:

In general hardware is very easy to install in ubuntu, because it works right away. But of course not ALL hardware can be supported.

I should have filed an error report, but didn't, because I didn't know it was possible.
I have changed the mobo, and everything works now.
That is everything on 3 different systems!

[henriquemaia]

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