People give up to easy!

[perlluver]

The guy couldn't get a program installed, so he is going back to Windows. WOW!!!

:popcorn:

[juxtaposed]

You'd be surprised how frustrating one experience can be.

If that one program was really essential... It makes sense. If it was one with a bunch of good alternatives, it doesn't.

[NoSmokingBandit]

imagine you went to a completely new operating system and the first thing you do is try to install an app like you've dont thousands of times on windows, but now in ubuntu it does t work at all. Wouldnt you think that everything is going to be that difficult if you couldnt even install 1 program. Alot of people go to linux because people brag about how easy it is, but if you see its not easy as soon as you start of course you would be inclined to go back to what you know.

[professor fate]

i've invested at least 20 hours into getting my sound card to work, and it's still dead. no rest for the wicked.

[karellen]

some people find time the most valuable resource they have, so spending it on learning something new for doing something very familiar may not be an option they are willing to consider

[pelle.k]

Don't you worry, he's already infected.
Let me tell you, i tried linux *several* times before i got stuck, but the thing is, i always came back.

I can understand if someone gives up early. Imagine you're stuck at a crappy resolution, and X wont let you go over 60Hz in refresh rate. I promise you, i give it 5 minutes then i reboot before my eyes bleed to death. I might give it another try, but there's always that timeframe.
Another issue is; no sound. I get sick, *literally* if i can't fire up a media player and listen to music while i'm at my computer.

[n3tfury]

The guy couldn't get a program installed, so he is going back to Windows. WOW!!!

:popcorn:

if it's the post i was trying to help him with (gsopcast), well, these are things that normal people don't want to deal with. can't blame them really, although, the program in question is not even in synaptic so there's some terminal "work" involved.

linux isn't for everyone no matter how easy you make things.

[perlluver]

Sure when I made the move to Ubuntu, I was about to cry, with the apt-get, and all the terminal things. But I am learning and the other day I loaded up Windows 2000, and my eyes started bleeding because the refresh rate wouldn't go over 60. Soon as I was done, I plugged back in the Ubuntu box, and just said lovely. But to know I am secure and can almost do anything I want, I love it. Sure I had problems getting my Nvidia card to work, but when the Final Release came out, and I downloaded Envy, they Installed like a dream and are working fine. Sure it is hard but, just got to listen and learn. Any problems come here and check to see if there is someone else with the same problem. But for one program I would never go back to Windows.

[juxtaposed]

What's everyone talking about their eyes bleeding when the refresh rate isn't over 60? Mines at 60 on Debian here. I'm not sure about what it is on windows, but I don't notice a difference either way.

[professor fate]

Everyone has a threshold of pain or tolerance. A neighbor of mine many years ago wanted to go biking with me. It wasn't just any regular bike ride. It was six miles up hill and no flat ground along the way; not for the faint of heart. She was out just after the first mile. I can't blame her. She just reached a level of tolerance that she couldn't pass. I have mine. For instance, you'll never catch me jumping out of a plane. I don't care how safe you say it is.

[perlluver]

Everyone has a threshold of pain or tolerance. A neighbor of mine many years ago wanted to go biking with me. It wasn't just any regular bike ride. It was six miles up hill and no flat ground along the way; not for the faint of heart. She was out just after the first mile. I can't blame her. She just reached a level of tolerance that she couldn't pass. I have mine. For instance, you'll never catch me jumping out of a plane. I don't care how safe you say it is.

Well yeah I understand your problem, you were just pushed into this, you can't get your sound card working, and all the other problems you have experienced. If none of my cards, or other devices worked I would give up too.

:(

[fuscia]

i reinstalled just because i messed up my mpd.conf file too badly to be rescued.

[perlluver]

i reinstalled just because i messed up my mpd.conf file too badly to be rescued.

I reinstalled twice, I messed up my xorg.conf file so bad I couldn't fix it. But after I lost everything twice, I came to the forums and learned how to fix it. I understand Linux is hard to understand. Back when Red Hat 6.1 was around I messed up two hard drives and gave up on Linux. But I came back when I saw how good Ubuntu looked. I tried the live CD everything worked, so I saved my stuff and Installed it.

[Fbot1]

Makes sense to me.

[SunnyRabbiera]

really though, even me with my hellish initial experience with linux I still came back to it...
of course I had a fully legit reason to be annoyed, I had Suse linux 9 and it was a real pain in the you know what.
What most people dont understand is that there is more then one distribution out there, so if a distribution like ubuntu dont work out there are plenty of others to try.
at the time i first tried linux Suse was second place only to mandriva then mandrake, the only reason I used suse initally is that for one it was free and second it was allegedly easy... the first part was right at least.
But my suse expeience was nightmarish, it wasnt until I used Mepis that linux became a viable option for me.
I think new possible users should do some homework before switching over to linux, i know I did and I learned about Mepis during a general inquiry on easy to use distrobutions.
I will admit, perhaps Ubuntu ISNT the right distro to start off with if you need stuff like multimedia to work on the fly.
There are better ones to start off with, distros like Mepis, PClinux and even mandriva might be better places to start then ubuntu...
But I am not dissing ubuntu, its a great distro for sure but it is one of the hard ones to get used to for a total newbie.

[perlluver]

really though, even me with my hellish initial experience with linux I still came back to it...
of course I had a fully legit reason to be annoyed, I had Suse linux 9 and it was a real pain in the you know what.
What most people dont understand is that there is more then one distribution out there, so if a distribution like ubuntu dont work out there are plenty of others to try.
at the time i first tried linux Suse was second place only to mandriva then mandrake, the only reason I used suse initally is that for one it was free and second it was allegedly easy... the first part was right at least.
But my suse expeience was nightmarish, it wasnt until I used Mepis that linux became a viable option for me.
I think new possible users should do some homework before switching over to linux, i know I did and I learned about Mepis during a general inquiry on easy to use distrobutions.
I will admit, perhaps Ubuntu ISNT the right distro to start off with if you need stuff like multimedia to work on the fly.
There are better ones to start off with, distros like Mepis, PClinux and even mandriva might be better places to start then ubuntu...
But I am not dissing ubuntu, its a great distro for sure but it is one of the hard ones to get used to for a total newbie.

I agree completely. There are so many Distros, try another one. If you still hate it, go back to Windows, or Mac. Freedom of choice right? Don't just give up on all of them over one program.

[popch]

I understand Linux is hard to understand. .

I do not think so. Linux is much easier to understand than some other widespread operating systems and window managers. The problem is that in order to use linux on some hardware or with some applications you have to understand it, while other software systems come bundled with your hardware and do not require any understanding in order to get it to work at all.

However, there are many sources which help you understanding the parts of Linux which you need to know about, while other systems are poorly documented. Not that there's no documentation, but it's not all that helpful.

Some people just fail to remember that they used to have a hard time learning to use the system they are using now.

[sailor2001]

I have interested about 6 guys in my housing to go linux....All are somewhat computer literate and all are "scared" to make the big step downloading/installing......I think the best thing I could do is start a lug. Any suggestions?

[the yawner]

One thing I've noticed with the help in this place is that it usually forces the totally clueless to try out the terminal with commands they barely understand. This should not always be the case especially when there's a graphic frontend for the tasks that need be done. Of course not all of the terminal commands are covered. But I say people should be taught to be familiar with the desktop first, and learn the internal details if they do so wish.

My 2 beans.

[argie]

One thing I've noticed with the help in this place is that it usually forces the totally clueless to try out the terminal with commands they barely understand. This should not always be the case especially when there's a graphic frontend for the tasks that need be done. Of course not all of the terminal commands are covered. But I say people should be taught to be familiar with the desktop first, and learn the internal details if they do so wish.

My 2 beans.

Hard to give instructions.
Copy-paste into Terminal:

echo "deb blahblah" >> /etc/apt/sources.list
vs.
Go to System » Administration » Synaptic
Then open
Options » Repositories » Third Party. Now copy-paste:

deb blahblah

[-grubby]

I tried to install Java for 2 weeks..reinstalled because of it..didn't give up. Little did I know it was in the repositories

[n3tfury]

Hard to give instructions.
Copy-paste into Terminal:

echo "deb blahblah" >> /etc/apt/sources.list
vs.
Go to System » Administration » Synaptic
Then open
Options » Repositories » Third Party. Now copy-paste:

deb blahblah

i can't tell if you're agreeing or not with yawner or not. if you're not think about this: for the noob, copying and pasting in the terminal certainly does work, but it does nothing to teach them how to use synaptic. they're going to remember where the gui is as compared to "ok, i just copied and pasted, but wth did i just do?"

[n3tfury]

I tried to install Java for 2 weeks..reinstalled because of it..didn't give up. Little did I know it was in the repositories

again, not everyone wants to screw around with computers. that's how it is and always will be.

[argie]

i can't tell if you're agreeing or not with yawner or not. if you're not think about this: for the noob, copying and pasting in the terminal certainly does work, but it does nothing to teach them how to use synaptic. they're going to remember where the gui is as compared to "ok, i just copied and pasted, but wth did i just do?"

That's true enough. I agree. The example was hardly perfect. The thing is it's easy to make a mistake when giving more complex instructions. Also, if my experience is anywhere near the norm, lots of people just forget stuff like this because they aren't bothered. They 'just want it to work'. The people who want to be able to do the stuff again without help usually ask for that information specifically. But then, my sample size is some 6-10 people.

[-grubby]

again, not everyone wants to screw around with computers. that's how it is and always will be.
ya..I know. Some people just want to use their computers for work and wonder why they should change if it works perfectly fine already.

[zero244]

How much time do you Windows users spend degragging your hard drive.......scanning for viruses.......spyware. How much time do you spend doing fresh installs because you cant disinfect your computer.
How many times a year does your browser get hijacked......tool bars installed without notice.
Most Windows users only know how to double click on a program to install it........they know almost nothing about what is going on uder the surface.
So expecting them to learn how to use Linux is almost an impossibility.

[wispygalaxy]

Well, I accidentally deleted Windows Vista when I was installing Ubuntu as part of a dual boot. I clicked on "Guided-- use entire disk". I didn't get frustrated with Ubuntu. It was my fault. Luckily, I had my most important documents backed up. I got Vista back on my laptop since my college requires that I have it, but Ubuntu is my preference :)

[n3tfury]

so that worked out for you - good deal.

[popch]

I think it is sort of a cultural thing.

Most 'residents' here would presumably agree that you have to understand computing and OS'ing a bit if you want to be able to use a computer for whatever you do use it for.

People insisting on using other environments often think that it ought to 'just work' like any appliance does. After all, scarcely any one knows how to change or adjust a sparking plug or how to disassemble and reassemble the alternator. To be truthful, most people would be surprised to learn that they actually own such things.

I sincerely can not say who of those is right, if any. I know for sure that I prefer knowing about computers and software. But then, I am a fossil in many things.

[Irihapeti]

Interesting comment, popch.

And I don't know that we can say definitely which culture is right, overall. I think it depends on where you are and what you are (supposed to be) doing.

I used to be an office temp, back in the days of Windows 3.11 or so. I wanted things to just work so I could get on with what I was there to do. It was definitely NOT the right thing for me to be trying to change things on the system I was using, or even telling them that I thought there were better options. (I didn't see it that way at the time, and caused a bit of friction.)

At home here I can organise things as I like. Again, though, I have to say I'm probably spending time on it that I really ought to be using for something else. But I get a bit like a dog with a bone and have trouble letting it go.

And professor fate, I admire the way you've taken up this challenge and are giving it your best shot.

Irihapeti

[Spike-X]

People insisting on using other environments often think that it ought to 'just work' like any appliance does.

The thing is, though, it's a computer. Not a toaster. You can only simplify it so far, and at the end of the day, people need to realise that they might have to pull their heads out of their butts and actually learn a damn thing.

[Toffeeapple]

I tried to install Java for 2 weeks..reinstalled because of it..didn't give up. Little did I know it was in the repositories

hahahahahah...

happened to me too :)

kicked myself for that.

BUT! it did teach me that there is a world of interesting stuff in the synaptic package manager : )

[Mazza558]

People give up to easy!

Who's easy?

Badum.. Tshhhh! :)

[popch]

The thing is, though, it's a computer. Not a toaster. You can only simplify it so far, and at the end of the day, people need to realise that they might have to pull their heads out of their butts and actually learn a damn thing.

It used to be the same with automobiles. You had to be a mechanic to use one, and you had to savy maps in order to arrive where you wanted to.

And the thing is, though, if toasters were built like computers and their software, you would go hungry to work most mornings.

Still, I rather believe that computers are more useful to you if you know a bit about how they work (when and if they do).

[Spike-X]

It used to be the same with automobiles. You had to be a mechanic to use one, and you had to savy maps in order to arrive where you wanted to.

And the thing is, though, if toasters were built like computers and their software, you would go hungry to work most mornings.

Still, I rather believe that computers are more useful to you if you know a bit about how they work (when and if they do).

As are cars. I'm not a mechanic, but I know to check the tyres, oil, transmission fluid, etc regularly, in order to keep my car* running smoothly. I don't expect it to "just work" - I know that, as a car owner*, there are certain basic things I need to take responsibility for.

If most people put the same lack of effort into learning to drive as they do into learning how to use their computer, we'd have far fewer drivers on the road**.

* Hypothetically speaking - I don't actually own a car.

** As a regular cyclist, I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing.

[popch]

As are cars. I'm not a mechanic, but I know to check the tyres, oil, transmission fluid, etc regularly, in order to keep my car* running smoothly. I don't expect it to "just work" - I know that, as a car owner*, there are certain basic things I need to take responsibility for.

If most people put the same lack of effort into learning to drive as they do into learning how to use their computer, we'd have far fewer drivers on the road**.

* Hypothetically speaking - I don't actually own a car.

** As a regular cyclist, I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing.

Agreed, even as the pedestrian I am.

As a regular cyclist, you check your chain, transmission, brakes, cables, lights and things every day before taking a ride, I take it?

The same applies to bikes as I stated before: some people simply do not want to know how it works and how to look after it. They're still alive.

[Spike-X]

As a regular cyclist, you check your chain, transmission, brakes, cables, lights and things every day before taking a ride, I take it?

Not every day, but yeah, I definitely stay on top of things. The last thing I was is for my brakes to not be there when some peanut pulls out in front of me in heavy traffic. Or if I'm half way down a tricky downhill trail in the middle of the bush.


The same applies to bikes as I stated before: some people simply do not want to know how it works and how to look after it. They're still alive.

Sure, but their car might not be in such great shape if they let their transmission fluid or oil level get too low. There should definitely be a mechanical component to the driver's test. At the very least, it would help to keep bimbos like Paris Hilton and her legion of clones off our roads.

[popch]

it would help to keep bimbos like Paris Hilton and her legion of clones off our roads.

You presume that failing a test keeps people off the road. It does not.

However, it appears that the two of us are in agreement that some technology is better or more safely employed when used with at least some basic knowledge.

Other people appear to feel differently. That's when I get impatient, when they come in here screaming bloody murder without giving any clue about what their problem might be.

[Spike-X]

it appears that the two of us are in agreement...

Yeah. How boring! Umm...what are you doing walking? You should get a bike, dammit!! Bikes are superior, and anyone who doesn't agree is a fool to themselves and a burden to others!


I get impatient, when they come in here screaming bloody murder without giving any clue about what their problem might be.

As do I, when they do the same in real life. They expect me to bail them out time and time again, rather than bothering to learn a damn thing for themselves.

[popch]

Yeah. How boring! Umm...what are you doing walking? You should get a bike, dammit!! Bikes are superior, and anyone who doesn't agree is a fool to themselves and a burden to others!.

Yes, I like being a burden to others. Also, I am afraid of the automobile traffic which cuts right across the lanes I had to use were I so silly as to take a bike to work. Also, some of the roads are a bit too steep for me. I used to smoke a lot.

Public transportation is about four minute's walk from my home and right across the road from where I work. I get to read a few books while riding to and from work.

[Spike-X]

Public transportation is about four minute's walk from my home and right across the road from where I work. I get to read a few books while riding to and from work.

Very handy!

I get the best of both worlds - 15 minutes' ride to the train station, then 20 minutes on the train where I can read the paper/a book, listen to podcasts, etc.

[PartisanEntity]

The guy couldn't get a program installed, so he is going back to Windows. WOW!!!

:popcorn:

If it was something important with no alternatives I would understand, as long as they did not try to install an .exe file.

[Bliepo32]

In my case, I try things very long. After that I give up. Several months later, at some random moment, I decide it is time to try again. Most of the time it will work then.

[pelle.k]

As are cars. I'm not a mechanic, but I know to check the tyres, oil, transmission fluid, etc regularly, in order to keep my car* running smoothly. I don't expect it to "just work" - I know that, as a car owner*, there are certain basic things I need to take responsibility for.

If most people put the same lack of effort into learning to drive as they do into learning how to use their computer, we'd have far fewer drivers on the road**.

* Hypothetically speaking - I don't actually own a car.

** As a regular cyclist, I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing.

Thankyou! That's what i've been preaching for ages.
The toaster analogy someone made was also bloody excellent. I mean it's freakin high tech were talking about.
People expect it to work without effort, and it has to do *everything*. Can you *see* the dilemma? You can't have a toaster that can do online banking, by loading it with bread and pushing a button alone.
Also, how would you think our roads would look if people didn't have to bother about a drivers licence and all of that (yes, we force them because they'd probably think it was unnecessary if we didn't.) I mean, they just wanna go from here to there.
- "I don't care about how a car works. It should be easy."
Thank god we have an authority enforcing driving licenses, because in reality people just wanna press the pedal and steer.

- "but people don't need to know what's under the hood"
Yes, that is correct, but they still have to know how to operate the stereo and follow road signs and plan their route.