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View Full Version : Linux and Microsoft. A realization



weasel fierce
August 23rd, 2005, 01:15 AM
Theres tons of static about how linux can beat microsoft, how microsoft can beat linux, which iwll be the prevalent desktop etc.

It just occured to me, earlier today.... How bloody amazing is it that Linux has even come that far ?

Microsoft is a billion dollar company.

Linux is supported by what ?
People. Common people who had a passion to do something.

That it has even come this far, is simply amazing. That people are talking about how this phenomenom can rival a corporate giant is mind-boggling.

aysiu
August 23rd, 2005, 01:29 AM
I feel the same way. People are talking about what hardware it doesn't support, instead of what hardware it does support. That says a lot about how far Linux has come.

KiwiNZ
August 23rd, 2005, 01:43 AM
Theres tons of static about how linux can beat microsoft, how microsoft can beat linux, which iwll be the prevalent desktop etc.

It just occured to me, earlier today.... How bloody amazing is it that Linux has even come that far ?

Microsoft is a billion dollar company.

Linux is supported by what ?
People. Common people who had a passion to do something.

That it has even come this far, is simply amazing. That people are talking about how this phenomenom can rival a corporate giant is mind-boggling.

Yes it is amazing , but remember there is also some significant Corporate involvement and money involved as well ,eg
IBM , Novell , Canonical, Redhat, Mandriva ,Sun ,HP ,to name a few and Corel and SCO in the past.

nobodysbusiness
August 23rd, 2005, 02:50 AM
I expect that the ball is just starting to get rolling. I'm a computer professional, and so my future career options depend on knowing the right technologies. I believe that Linux will continue to slowly gain momentum over the coming years, and so I feel good about investing some of my time in learning it. But there's also more to it than just my career. I like learning about Linux, and the best way to learn is to have fun while you're at it.

BWF89
August 23rd, 2005, 03:04 AM
With the playingfield the way it is now I'm too worried about Microsoft beating Linux.

But what worries me is that in the future companies will see the open source threat and create laws that cripple open source. And if Linux is going to loose the fight that is how they are going to loose it.

xequence
August 23rd, 2005, 03:12 AM
Theres tons of static about how linux can beat microsoft, how microsoft can beat linux, which iwll be the prevalent desktop etc.

It just occured to me, earlier today.... How bloody amazing is it that Linux has even come that far ?

Microsoft is a billion dollar company.

Linux is supported by what ?
People. Common people who had a passion to do something.

That it has even come this far, is simply amazing. That people are talking about how this phenomenom can rival a corporate giant is mind-boggling.


Its the will of the people =D

Microsoft spends 8 billion a year on R&D yet they still have a bad product. Ol' Billy must be frustrated... And here comes ubuntu. One of the more funded distros. 10 Million dollars, alot of money but not as much as microsoft. Its better.

poofyhairguy
August 23rd, 2005, 03:17 AM
But what worries me is that in the future companies will see the open source threat and create laws that cripple open source. And if Linux is going to loose the fight that is how they are going to loose it.

Trick is that lots of companies see it as a gravy train. Who is going to tell IBM no?

skoal
August 23rd, 2005, 03:18 AM
That's a great observation, and accurate in _part_. However, in the course of some 10+ years that I've used Linux, the _vast_ majority of it's _noteworthy_ achievements have only been realized within the past 4-5 years. I attribute that to the many paid developers hard at work over at RedHat, IBM, HP, Transmeta, and OSDL (which, by the way, is financed by 20+ companies including the likes of Intel, HP, NEC, Dell, Cisco, Hitachi, and yours and mine good buddy, IBM). There's absolutely no difference between them and M$ empoyees punching out their time clock every day...

That's not to discount all the great efforts made by many countless unfinanced developers around the world either. But, truth be known, without such _corporate_ backing (both financial and in personnel) by the likes of these Industry giants, Linux would still be struggling with 2.4 development. I can safely make that observation as an Industry developer (developing/tracking/using critical linux kernel features relating to driver development, IPC apps, etc) since the early 2.0 days.

Let's give major credit where credit is due - to corporations with invested financial interests in Linux...and that's not so bad afterall. We as consumers benefit from it as the technology trickles back down to our _free_ level of desktop use.

\\//

weasel fierce
August 23rd, 2005, 04:32 AM
Oh, I didnt mean to poo-poo the guys who work with this fulltime. Just that linux also has a significant portion of "geeks" as well, who laid the foundations.
:)

az
August 23rd, 2005, 04:59 PM
... and who contribute. Just submitting a patch, making a comment about a bug, or fixing a bug is a great impetus for developers. The model of opensourceis that you make a little effort to keep an ear out and let the community help you.

A handful of people working 9 to 5 in an office are helped out by many users who can scratch their own itches, just by being able to open up the code and fix what is bugging them (which is somewhat of human nature)

Read "the cathedral and the bazaar" by Eric Raymond. It is an essay on the open source developmental model.


I am far more excited about emerging technologies in poorer countries. I mean efforts like the 100-dollar laptop and so forth.

Can you image what thousands and thousands of kids who get to use free and open source software will be coming up with and giving back to the open source community in a few years?

h4rdc0d3
August 23rd, 2005, 05:14 PM
I don't think it's a matter of linux beating microsoft or microsoft beating linux... each OS has its niche. It is impressive though the growth of linux's niche... and the fact that linux is taking quite a chunk out of microsoft's coffers. I'm suprised that microsoft hasn't tried to co-develop a linux-based OS (like a "Windows LE" for "Linux Edition").

Regardless of my opinon that microsoft will exist for a long time to come... I still think that it sucks.

KingBahamut
August 23rd, 2005, 05:22 PM
Well most accounts are true.

What kills me is that Microsoft does what it does, and still it fails.

The Get The Facts campaign, which I think that MS dumps some umpteen million dollars into, hasnt increased their overall revenue share very much or succeeded in creating very much Fear Uncertainty or Doubt. It certainly hasnt affected the growth of the *nix community.

Europe turns around , Denies Software Patents, Fines MS 875 Million Dollars and required source code. The German Government turns around , drops its liscence spread for MS prodcut , (choosing an unamed Debian solution for its internal government offices) while at the same time telling Ballmer to take his 95% discounted product out the door with him.

Shuttleworth puts Vending machines that give you installable open source product for free and hes actually successful at it.

On top of the fact that Redhat takes a fairly even amount of support from IBM, that for which is attributed the bogus 5 billion dollar suit with SCO.

These and many many more facts are a very clear sign that Microsofts market share , in many areas other than the US, are waning severely.

So, that be said,

Linux Vs Windows.....there is a clear and obvious answer, and its not developed in Washington State.

Kvark
August 23rd, 2005, 06:27 PM
One huge corporation like microsoft isn't that impressive. Sure they have a lot of resources and power concentrated into one place. But the bigger it is, the harder it becomes to keep it streamlined and effective. And the closed source development model makes it very hard for others with interest in windows to help.

With linux on the other hand everyone who has an interest in it can help push development forward. That includes a lot of companies in all sizes of which many have been mentioned here plus countless individuals. It is impossible for a closed organization to stay ahead of that. This is how most (not only software) research and development will work in the future.

Some will say "Wait, why would most R&D become free when patents are what makes it profitable?". Well, if one sector makes the switch, then all concurrenting sectors must switch as well to keep up, ...domino! ...let me use travel as a speculative example. If train development goes 'open source' but airplane development stays closed. Then railroad companies and everyone else with interest in trains will contribute to the development while boing keeps trying to do it alone and gain monopoly on airplanes. The result would be that airlines stay painfully slow with making progress to solve problems with delays, increasing oil prices, security, baggage mishaps etc. While trains relatively quickly would make it possible to live in Italy and work in Norway with extreamly fast magnetic hover trains (no friction) in vacuum tunnels (no air resistance either).

h4rdc0d3
August 23rd, 2005, 07:01 PM
extreamly fast magnetic hover trains (no friction) in vacuum tunnels (no air resistance either)

That would be cool.

its_jon
August 23rd, 2005, 09:30 PM
Th Linux community has it within its power to topple Microsoft.

The answer is simple.

So simple that the Linux community has not capitalised on its upper hand, and yet it is the capitalisation of its upper hand that would go against everything Linux stands for in the public perception.

However, here is how to do it.

Linux has to appear to ALL as the most simple and secure computer system in the world.
By far superior and less confusing than the dated and complex Microsoft product.

Microsoft have realised that Linux has the potential to be simpler to use than its own produce and they have also realised that Linux has just as many quality key applications with the exception that they are free. This is shown in Microsofts recent TV campaign to inform the world that Windows has as lot of software that runns on it....Why would they spend a fortune to inform the world of that ?????? ......because of Linux of course.
What the Linux community does not realise is that all it has to do, especially in the case of Ubuntu is to make sure all this software is MUCH easyer to find and install than Microsoft software, which of course it should be as the vast majority of it is under the same free licence and is 100% nag free. People should be made more aware that Linux is simpler to use and a far greater community in both size and knowledge than the Microsoft world....Software is simpler to inslall and every bit 100% nag free.

Linux is 'NAG' free. No matter how much microsoft dress up its OS the user will always find nag's everywhere !.......nag nag nag nag nag, from the process of locating software to making sure its virus free to the hassle of installing it only to find it requires you to send your credit car number to activate essential area's of it etc etc...

This is a MAJOR imrovement over the Microsoft product so major in fact that the only way Microsoft can get around it would be to build in Linux emulation, however the user would also be able to install all the NAGware alongside it and im not sure if Microsoft would be allowed to run GNU sftware anyway :razz: , so thats M$ knackered then :wink:

Anyway, Linux still has one Major problem of its own to sort out...... Modems.
Sort it by providing a Ubuntu branded Linux modem that is 100% guaranteed to work, heck!, charge for it!.....If I knew it would work when my existing modem diddnt (with a prior hardware check) I would purchase it along with the disk if Ubuntu recommended the 'upgrade' to a more finely tuned Linux quality item, see where Im coming from :-) !

come on, do it.

Think,

'Light and breezy, Linux = easy'

all chant after me....



anyway, back to trying to solve my modem problem now :neutral:

Brunellus
August 23rd, 2005, 10:08 PM
Th Linux community has it within its power to topple Microsoft.

The answer is simple.

So simple that the Linux community has not capitalised on its upper hand, and yet it is the capitalisation of its upper hand that would go against everything Linux stands for in the public perception.

However, here is how to do it.

Linux has to appear to ALL as the most simple and secure computer system in the world.
By far superior and less confusing than the dated and complex Microsoft product.

Microsoft have realised that Linux has the potential to be simpler to use than its own produce and they have also realised that Linux has just as many quality key applications with the exception that they are free. This is shown in Microsofts recent TV campaign to inform the world that Windows has as lot of software that runns on it....Why would they spend a fortune to inform the world of that ?????? ......because of Linux of course.
What the Linux community does not realise is that all it has to do, especially in the case of Ubuntu is to make sure all this software is MUCH easyer to find and install than Microsoft software, which of course it should be as the vast majority of it is under the same free licence and is 100% nag free. People should be made more aware that Linux is simpler to use and a far greater community in both size and knowledge than the Microsoft world....Software is simpler to inslall and every bit 100% nag free.

Linux is 'NAG' free. No matter how much microsoft dress up its OS the user will always find nag's everywhere !.......nag nag nag nag nag, from the process of locating software to making sure its virus free to the hassle of installing it only to find it requires you to send your credit car number to activate essential area's of it etc etc...

This is a MAJOR imrovement over the Microsoft product so major in fact that the only way Microsoft can get around it would be to build in Linux emulation, however the user would also be able to install all the NAGware alongside it and im not sure if Microsoft would be allowed to run GNU sftware anyway :razz: , so thats M$ knackered then :wink:

Anyway, Linux still has one Major problem of its own to sort out...... Modems.
Sort it by providing a Ubuntu branded Linux modem that is 100% guaranteed to work, heck!, charge for it!.....If I knew it would work when my existing modem diddnt (with a prior hardware check) I would purchase it along with the disk if Ubuntu recommended the 'upgrade' to a more finely tuned Linux quality item, see where Im coming from :-) !

come on, do it.

Think,

'Light and breezy, Linux = easy'

all chant after me....



anyway, back to trying to solve my modem problem now :neutral:
you can lead the people to free software, but you can't make them install.

The fact of the matter is that for a lot of people, the barrier is low enough to climb over, or ignore, and it continues to go down, regardless of how much 'WELL LINUX OUGHTA' hectoring is going on.

The big switch won't come from disparate users, but from the usual methods of compulsion--large corporations wishing to save on licencing and administration costs. When you need to use Linux at the office, then it'll start to make sense to use it at home.

The example of History might be useful. Apple had a superior platform in the original Macintosh--it was supposed to be the ideal platform for new users of computers. What happened? If you don't believe Apple's hype, they failed--because businesses bought IBM/Intel/Microsoft computers instead. They didn't buy them because of any real superiority--but because they were cheaper, and hardware was plentiful and available. The Macintosh continues to teeter on the lip of the dustbin of history as a result.

So shall it be with GNU/Linux (and maybe GNU/Hurd, if it ever gets together). The push will come not from idealism but hard-nosed pragamatism by largely-clueless suits looking to put widgets everywhere. Linux already wins in the licensing category, probably wins in the maintenance costs. It's competitive in terms of hardware--anything will run Linux, and for a large organization, it wouldn't be too hard to standardize hardware to work.

So what I'm waiting for is a large organizational upheaval towards free software. In Europe, the public sector has begun to do this in small places--Munich, Vienna, various Spanish regional authorities. Brazil's federal government is pro-GNU. Now it's a question of waiting for other, larger organizations to deploy GNU/Linux on their desktops.

its_jon
August 23rd, 2005, 10:55 PM
I sometimes think that Linux people misinterprete constructive critisisim as negative feedback.

Lets remember that one of the main reasons Microsoft is where its at today in not the size of its bank account but the size of its ears.



:::::
Ubuntu is probably the nearest thing to a Windows competitor.

Brunellus
August 23rd, 2005, 11:07 PM
I sometimes think that Linux people misinterprete constructive critisisim as negative feedback.

Lets remember that one of the main reasons Microsoft is where its at today in not the size of its bank account but the size of its ears.



:::::
Ubuntu is probably the nearest thing to a Windows competitor.

Microsoft is where it is today because of very astute maneouvering out of the starting-gate. Selling the cheapest preinstalled OS on the IBM PC was quite a coup--having third parties write indispensible application software for that OS (remember Lotus 1-2-3 and WordPerfect?) was even better.

If anyone worked hard at figuring out what 'common users' wanted, it was Apple. Their GUI was miles ahead--still is!--of anything Microsoft has been able to build. Where has it gotten them? the brink of bankruptcy and a small slice of a huge market.

The illusion of ease at the consumer level with Microsoft is entirely a product of its total domination of the desktop marketplace at the OEM level. Windows is 'easy' because most end-users never have to install it. As a result, device manufacturers can write drivers only for windows, because they are under no pressure to consider alternative operating systems.

Nothing speaks so eloquently to a corporation as money.