How does Ubuntu give back? DCCA?! Microsoft!?

[nrdlnd]

Hi!
Ubuntu wouldn't exist without Debian and the Debian Community. Anyone who have tried to install Debian Sarge and also Ubuntu can see the similarities. Ubuntu is using the very good Sarge installer and of course Apt and of course also the other Debian programs. Ubuntu is modyfying them though so they can't be used by Debian and Ubuntu puts up its own repositories. Is this the same as when Microsoft takes programs and make them incompatible with other systems? Maybe not as Microsoft never gives anything back. But how does Ubuntu give back to the community? Is it any better than Microsoft?

There has been a thread on this forum before about the DCCA (Debian Common Core Alliance). As of what I've been able to read about the DCCA there where a lot of misconceptions of what it is and who took the initiative. The DCCA is supported by Bruce Perens among others. It has also been critisized that it's built on Debian Sarge and LSB (the Linux Standard Base), and that Debian Sarge is outdated. Ubuntu is also built on Debian Sarge even if it is a snapshot of Debian Unstable that is modified. Anyone who have installed both Debian Sarge and Ubuntu can see the similarities! Why doesn't Ubuntu join DCCA?

Ubuntu is a very good distribution (maybe the best) but I think it's very important for its future to solve these questions. It must give back to and participate in the Debian and Linux community and speak out and show that. Otherwise it will be a new Microsoft! :^o

[Knome_fan]

*sigh*
There has indeed been a lot of discussion about the relationship of debian and ubuntu and though you of course might be of the opinion that it should and could improve, you simply seem to have fallen to all the FUD that has been spread about this issue.

Some links you should take a look at:
http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/patches/
http://mako.cc/writing/to_fork_or_not_to_fork.html
http://utnubu.alioth.debian.org/

[Buffalo Soldier]

http://www.ubuntulinux.org/ubuntu/relationship/document_view

As Ubuntu prepares for release, we "freeze" a snapshot of debian's development archive ('sid'). We start from 'sid' in order to give ourselves the freedom to make our own decisions with regard to release management, independent of Debian's release-in-preparation. This is necessary because our release criteria are very different from Debian's.By using Debian's Sid as it's starting point, Ubuntu gives back very much back to Debian no matter in terms of bug fixes, feedbacks, suggestions, user experience and etc. Canonical also hires a sum of Debian developers (I'm not sure if they hirer more Debian developer than those commercial Debian-based distro, someone might want to check this out).

About those other distro's... By basing themselves with Debian's Sarge which is already rock-solid-stable that Debian is world famous for.. they are involve in the get-your-hands-dirty kinda hardwork that Ubuntu is doing. In my opinion, they are they ones who are simply enjoying the ride and hitch-hiking on the hardwork of Debian developers.


Many Ubuntu developers are also recognized members of the debian community. They continue to stay active in contributing to debian both in the course of their work on Ubuntu and directly in debian.

When Ubuntu developers fix bugs that are also present in debian packages -- and since the projects are linked, this happens often -- they send their bugfixes to the Debian developers responsible for that package in debian and record the patch URL in the debian bug system. The long term goal of that work is to ensure that patches made by the full-time Ubuntu team members are immediately also included in debian packages where the debian maintainer likes the work.

A better representation (in graphic I mean) of Debian - Ubuntu relationship: http://www.netsplit.com/blog/work/canonical/ubuntu_and_debian.html

I suggest you visit the Mark Shuttleworth, Ubuntu and Debian (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=49946) thread for further read. PLUS, the http://linux.blogweb.de/uploads/02-...uttleworth.mpeg video is a MUST see. It's a large download, but it is worth it. After watching it, if you think Ubuntu is not cool, you will think Ubuntu is cool. If you already think Ubuntu is cool... then you will think Ubuntu is super cool.

[nrdlnd]

I've not intended to spread FUD. This was something that was very unclear for me. I've been using Ubuntu on my laptop since May. When I saw that Ubuntu didn't join the DCCA I became suspicious. It's not OK for me to use software that's free as in beer. If it were so I could as well download a pirated copy of Windows from the net.

Thank you very much for the links! The first one I don't understand but I guess it's patches that Ubuntu developers have given back to Debian. The second link was rather informative and made me feel a little better. I cite from it:

"There is some debate on the degree to which Ubuntu developers have succeeded in accomplishing the goals laid out by Remnant. Ubuntu has filed hundreds of patches in the bug tracking system but it has also run into problems in deciding what constitutes something that should be fed back to Debian. Many changes are simply not relevant to Debian developers. For example, they may include changes to a package in response to another change made in another package in Ubuntu that will not or has not been taken by Debian. In many other cases, the best action in regards to a particular change, a particular package, and a particular upstream Debian developer is simply unclear.

The Ubuntu project's track record in working constructively with Debian is, at the moment, a mixed one. While an increasingly large number of Debian developers are maintaining their packages actively within both projects, many in both Debian and Ubuntu feel that Ubuntu has work left to do in living up to its own goal of a completely smooth productive relationship with Debian.

That said, the importance of the goals described by Remnant in the context of of the Ubuntu development model cannot be overstated. Every line of delta between Debian and Ubuntu has a cost for Ubuntu developers. Technology, social practices, and wise choices may reduce that cost but it cannot eliminate it. The resources that Ubuntu can bring to bear upon the problem of building a distribution are limited — far more limited than Debian's. As a result, there is a limit to how far Ubuntu can diverge; it is always in Ubuntu's advantage to minimize the delta where possible."

After having these things explained I will continue use and support Ubuntu and Debian. I don't think the Ubuntu developing model is obvious for everyone - it needs to be explained. I still think the DCCA is a good thing.

I wish Ubuntu the best!

[az]

I still think the DCCA is a good thing.

I wish Ubuntu the best!


Firstly, if the DCCA was representative of Debian, it would not exist. The DCCA is a lobby group. They want to convince debian that binary compatibility (Common Core) is a good thing.

I do not beleive that many Debian developers feel that this is neccessary (or even a good thing).

There even was a conversation about the original name for it (Debian Common Core - Ian Murdock tried to use that name, but despite being the founder of Debian years ago, he cannot use the Debian trademark for such a venture and was corrected on the mailing list for that.)

I hope this puts things into perspective.

[nrdlnd]

[QUOTE=Buffalo Soldier]http://www.ubuntulinux.org/ubuntu/relationship/document_view
"By using Debian's Sid as it's starting point, Ubuntu gives back very much back to Debian no matter in terms of bug fixes, feedbacks, suggestions, user experience and etc. Canonical also hires a sum of Debian developers (I'm not sure if they hirer more Debian developer than those commercial Debian-based distro, someone might want to check this out).

About those other distro's... By basing themselves with Debian's Sarge which is already rock-solid-stable that Debian is world famous for.. they are involve in the get-your-hands-dirty kinda hardwork that Ubuntu is doing. In my opinion, they are they ones who are simply enjoying the ride and hitch-hiking on the hardwork of Debian developers.

A better representation (in graphic I mean) of Debian - Ubuntu relationship: http://www.netsplit.com/blog/work/canonical/ubuntu_and_debian.html]"


I'm very happy that I've got these things explained! But I still think that Ubuntu should join the other vendors in DCCA and try to inplant your developingmodel. It's better to join forces!

[Brunellus]

[QUOTE=Buffalo Soldier]http://www.ubuntulinux.org/ubuntu/relationship/document_view
"By using Debian's Sid as it's starting point, Ubuntu gives back very much back to Debian no matter in terms of bug fixes, feedbacks, suggestions, user experience and etc. Canonical also hires a sum of Debian developers (I'm not sure if they hirer more Debian developer than those commercial Debian-based distro, someone might want to check this out).

About those other distro's... By basing themselves with Debian's Sarge which is already rock-solid-stable that Debian is world famous for.. they are involve in the get-your-hands-dirty kinda hardwork that Ubuntu is doing. In my opinion, they are they ones who are simply enjoying the ride and hitch-hiking on the hardwork of Debian developers.

A better representation (in graphic I mean) of Debian - Ubuntu relationship: http://www.netsplit.com/blog/work/canonical/ubuntu_and_debian.html]"


I'm very happy that I've got these things explained! But I still think that Ubuntu should join the other vendors in DCCA and try to inplant your developingmodel. It's better to join forces!
it is only 'better to join forces' where your putative allies' efforts support and advance your own.

So long as Ubuntu continues to be GPL, free, and open, who really cares how close or how far it is from Debian?

[Stormy Eyes]

Oh dear Astarte, not this crap again...

[mike998]

Oh dear Astarte, not this crap again...

Yah - this particular subject has been beaten to death in other threads.

[Lovechild]

I'm not so much concerned about what they do for Debian, which I find an utterly uninteresting platform considering Linux as a whole. Let's look at it:

Bazaar and bazaar-ng - both very interesting and highly usable distributed revision control systems. Could be useful but neither one seems to be catching on as the cvs replacement.. let's face it, CVS just needs to die.

Launchpad (mainly of interest: Malone, Rosetta), as a translator I absolutely love Rosetta as it shows a lot of promise and I can do work on the go - however it is my understanding that Launchpad isn't open source and that is a problem. I'm told this might change soon but untill then I don't really consider it a contribution to the cause - cool as it is. Malone would greatly help unifying the various bugtrackers if I understand it correctly, this would be great especially for the kernel guys since the tendency is for bugreports to be filed with the distros and the fixes neither doesn't get send upstream or they get lost on lkml since the kernel guys aren't that good at using their bugzilla.

In terms of package maintance I know there are quite a few X-Force developers on the Ubuntu team, which means they are contributing at least development time to Xorg, very beneficial.

As a whole grepping sourcecode for @ubuntu* is a sorta disappointing experience currently, but I have a feeling once they fix many of Debian's shortcomings (GUI installer, etc) we'll start to see them devote time to some of the interesting project they outlined, I'm especially looking forward to the VoIP one.

[nrdlnd]

Brunelius wrote:
" it is only 'better to join forces' where your putative allies' efforts support and advance your own."

I've just got explained that the Ubuntu developing model is superior to the other vendors as it gives more back and faster to the Debian package maintainers. Why not then join forces with the other vendors and try to convince them to use the same model? It should benefit Ubuntu also as the patches are applied faster!

[KingBahamut]

DCCA and LCC are just ways for Murdock to try to get a grapple hold on what he has no control over. For him to say for instance..........


Debian is increasingly just another upstream source for them. Personally, I think this is a huge mistake on their part–sure, they have lots of momentum, but that's largely because Debian seemed to be faltering for a little while. But now that sarge is out there, the real momentum is behind Debian again, though Ubuntu still has momentum on the desktop side. If I were them, I'd continue focusing on that. I certainly wouldn't be so eager to unhook from the Debian train just yet.

While Murdock might be right in certain instances about this, what is clear is that this is more of a power play on his part to try to regain control of the situation. At least he was/is willing to admit the faltering of Debian, however, for him to say as a result of Sarge being out, that opinions are waning back to Debian is premature.

While it might be advisedable for a Debian Core to exist, one that other Distros can build upon to their satisfaction ( rather than have Debian actually try to build an enterprise system by itself ) it doesnt seem that this is going to happen. Though Murdock's main project Progeny isnt as nearly successful as one might think.

[Brunellus]

Brunelius wrote:
" it is only 'better to join forces' where your putative allies' efforts support and advance your own."

I've just got explained that the Ubuntu developing model is superior to the other vendors as it gives more back and faster to the Debian package maintainers. Why not then join forces with the other vendors and try to convince them to use the same model? It should benefit Ubuntu also as the patches are applied faster!
..because the other vendors won't use ubuntu's model, and ubuntu won't use theirs. The only options to each side are capitulation, negotiation, or rejection.

Neither side will capitulate, negotiation is not possible, so each side will continue along its own path.

[poofyhairguy]

I'm very happy that I've got these things explained! But I still think that Ubuntu should join the other vendors in DCCA and try to inplant your developingmodel. It's better to join forces!

Not always. The DCCA is trying to get the Debian spinoffs to rally around Sarge- to keep Sarge as their base. Ubuntu will and can never do this because Ubuntu has always been based on Sid.

Plus....Ubuntu is now whats pushing the Debian world. We added Xorg first. We will hammer out Cairo first. We package the newest Gnomes and KDEs first.

Why should the leader join a group that plans to follow? Let them follow I say.

[nrdlnd]

[QUOTE]Not always. The DCCA is trying to get the Debian spinoffs to rally around Sarge- to keep Sarge as their base. Ubuntu will and can never do this because Ubuntu has always been based on Sid.

I'm not quite sure of that. I don't know all the members of DCCA but at least Mepis is based on Sid and testing. Is it really a bad idea to have servers based on Sarge?
The most important thing for me was to get the Ubuntu development model explained to me and how it can benefit the Linux community. Thanks for that!

[poofyhairguy]

[QUOTE=poofyhairguy]

I'm not quite sure of that. I don't know all the members of DCCA but at least Mepis is based on Sid and testing.

Yep, and Sarge too. Ubuntu has never had anything to do with Sarge.



Is it really a bad idea to have servers based on Sarge?


Nope. Sarge is great for servers. Is it a bad idea to ask Ubuntu (a desktop distro) to be based on Sarge. I think so, and the developers agree.

[newbie2]

CA is also joining the LSB group -->

"The group includes Debian-based distributors such as Linspire, LinEx, Sun Wah, UserLinux and Xandros. It doesn't, however, include the most successful Debian-based project of all - Ubuntu, whose popularity has made it a de facto standard since its launch by South African dot-com billionaire Mark Shuttleworth in 2004."
http://www.techworld.com/applications/news/index.cfm?NewsID=4462&inkc=0

[majikstreet]

Honestly, how many times have you seen a distro based on another distro... I'm not counting! Debian is a great distrobution--- that's why Ubuntu is based on Debian! Ubuntu is just way more user friendly. I installed Debian and it was a n00b's nightmare.

majikstreet

[xequence]

Honestly, how many times have you seen a distro based on another distro... I'm not counting! Debian is a great distrobution--- that's why Ubuntu is based on Debian! Ubuntu is just way more user friendly. I installed Debian and it was a n00b's nightmare.

majikstreet

I have to aggree. I tried debian. I was impressed at how much ubuntu just worked, and how hard debian was to work at all.

[bob_c_b]

Having come from RedHat and Mandrake and now very happy with Ubunutu, I have seen a trend develope around virtually any distro that dares to get too popular or attract too many new users; the dreaded "now they are becoming Microsoft" comment. Honestly, this kind of inflamatory remark is no better than Win-trolls who spend hours explaining to use why Linux is not ready for the desktop. Even worse is that it is so divisive and really only seeks to create division and labels. If you are honestly a Linux supporter why would you drop this bomb?

If you can't see what Mark and Cano give back to the community (code, jobs, straight cash funding and vocal support for F/OSS) I don't know what to tell you. If all of this and a GPL-compliant distro of very high quality isn't enough, what is? Does it really boil down to politics? The Debian community is fairly divided of DCCA and many consider it a defacto fork. It has been debated here pretty thoroughly and probably can't be taken much further.

But the whole MS reference is just inflamatory and doesn't even come close to applying. When the day comes that any one distro virtually eliminates the others, tramples the GPL and becomes the exclusive OS to the vast majority of OEMs you can make that comment (and the way Linux is developed and licensed this is near impoosible). Until then I suggest if you want a legitimate discussion you edit your topic or try again in a less inflamatory manner.

[angkor]

I have to aggree. I tried debian. I was impressed at how much ubuntu just worked, and how hard debian was to work at all.

I agree Debian is a bit more difficult in setting up than Ubuntu is, but I got my first taste of Linux through Debian and eventually had it set up just the way a like it without any more trouble than a first-time user of an OS should have. Going from Debian Sid to Ubuntu was nothing but great....everything I learned using Debian I could use in Ubuntu and setting up Ubuntu was therefore a breeze. One of the things I like best about Ubuntu is that it is based on Debian.

I don't care much for all the 'politics' behind the distros, that dcca stuff and development models. I just want a distro that works for me.

[fordfan753]

Hmm...people that criticize Ubuntu for being based on Debian don't seem to realise that everything is based on something. Debian is based on both the GNU tools, and of course the Linux kernel. The Linux kernel was originally based on Unix. Everything is based on something, the trick is innovation...what can Ubuntu/Debian/Linux/anything else do that the predecessor can't? What can it do better? It's like people that cover songs, there are those that sing the song exactly the same, and there are those that really make the song their own. In the same way Ubuntu is a kickarse distro in it's own right, and while still having strong ties with Debian, it should not be hiding in it's shadow. I have also heard about Ubuntu based distros, I might have a look at them, see what they can do differently. ;)

[newbie2]

"Ubuntu: derivative or fork?"
http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/43904/

[bored2k]

Aside from this topic being discussed numerous times already, I don't see this discussion getting anymore productive than what it already is. If you still want to read more on this, refer to these threads below which cover the same issue.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=65937&highlight=debian+common+core+alliance
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=57799&highlight=debian+common+core+alliance
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=57913&highlight=debian+common+core+alliance
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=57211&highlight=debian+common+core+alliance
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=50982&highlight=debian+common+core+alliance