Request for a web development sub-forum

[LaRoza]

We have no clear place for web developers, except for the "Programming Talk" forum, which only attracts people doing scripting for the web. I feel that a "Web Development" forum would be benificial to everyone. This includes the newbies asking simple HTML questions in a Programming Forum, and the Web questions scattered about the "General Help" and "Absolute Beginners" forums.

This forum would be good for the (X)HTML, CSS, ECMAScript (and derivatives) and Server Side Scripting questions. Also, this forum would be the perfect place for requests to critique a site, or ask for suggestions for personal web pages.

Please consider this from a person who would love to answer web development questions, but sees such questions randomly posted with some hesitation ("Hi,l don't know if this is the right place to post this...").

[Nano Geek]

+1

[LaRoza]

+1

Good, I have support, now we need more people supporting this. (Asking in Cafe...)

[p_quarles]

I like this idea. It seems like a lot of people around here do some form of web design, either as a hobby or for a living, and it would be great to have a specific place to discuss it where we wouldn't be off-topic (i.e., in the main support forums) or lost in the sea (in the Cafe).

[RAV TUX]

We have no clear place for web developers, except for the "Programming Talk" forum, which only attracts people doing scripting for the web. I feel that a "Web Development" forum would be benificial to everyone. This includes the newbies asking simple HTML questions in a Programming Forum, and the Web questions scattered about the "General Help" and "Absolute Beginners" forums.

This forum would be good for the (X)HTML, CSS, ECMAScript (and derivatives) and Server Side Scripting questions.

Please consider this from a person who would love to answer web development questions, but sees such questions randomly posted with some hesitation ("Hi,l don't know if this is the right place to post this...").

Actually I think a better idea would simply be a Third Party Forum for ThinkBuntu (http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=255232)'s website:

Reference ThinkBuntu (http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=255232)'s signature:

Need help with CSS and web design? CSS Forums (http://www.cssforums.org/forum) | CSS Forums - Wiki (http://www.cssforums.org/wiki)

[LaRoza]

Actually I think a better idea would simply be a Third Party Forum for ThinkBuntu (http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=255232)'s website:

Reference ThinkBuntu (http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=255232)'s signature:

That is only for CSS, and is a very helpful forum.

There are forums for everything, but since UF gets a lot of Web design/development related questions, I think the single account should be able to be enough for a small sub-forum for web design. It could even be a sub-forum of the Programming Talk, but I think it deserves its own place.

[LaRoza]

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=3596913#post3596913

Perfect reason to make this forum.

(This forum would handle web site evaluation and opinions also, not just the coding.)

[Paqman]

Excellent idea!

[Sturmeh]

Web Design is no doubt an art, it could belong in several places...

Art & Design Sub-Forum (http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=16) is one.. :/

I suppose it belongs.

[derekr44]

+1

[LaRoza]

Web Design is no doubt an art, it could belong in several places...


Web Development is a combination of Content (the words), Presentation (the looks), behavior (Client side scripting and java or flash, among others), and there is the backend, which is entirely Programming and Database Mangagement.

It is part art, programming, and design (not visual), it deserves it own forum.

Web Development is more than making a massive bloated MySpace page.

[southernman]

+1

[Chilli Bob]

+1

[LookTJ]

I support this sub-forum request.

[LaRoza]

Any mods or Admins hearing this? What do you think? (To those with Power)

[p_quarles]

Bump.

Mods? Admins? It looks like a few of us could benefit from this kind of forum. Frankly, I'd be fine with a sub-forum of either Art & Design or Programming Talk. It would be great to have a section where we can discuss this topic with others who share our interest.

[Caffeine_Junky]

yeah I will give my vote to the OP, sounds like a reasonable request to me

+1

[LaRoza]

Bump.

Mods? Admins? It looks like a few of us could benefit from this kind of forum. Frankly, I'd be fine with a sub-forum of either Art & Design or Programming Talk. It would be great to have a section where we can discuss this topic with others who share our interest.

I believe it will be lost if it is a subforum, it is too broad and diverse to be a subset of anything.

Interesting, the coloured named members usually respond to such thread quickly, at least once. Maybe they are discussing it in their forum?

[JLB]

I agree with both Rav's and LaRoza's suggestions. I do however think it needs to be at a higher level than a subforum. As Laroza alluded to, it may get lost in the clutter. Either way, I welcome such a place but decent visibility would be best for all imo.

[Zdravko]

+1.
The subforum should tackle HTML, CSS, PHP, JavaScript and Python!

[LaRoza]

+1.
The subforum should tackle HTML, CSS, PHP, JavaScript and Python!

and web site evaluations.



I agree with both Rav's and LaRoza's suggestions. I do however think it needs to be at a higher level than a subforum. As Laroza alluded to, it may get lost in the clutter. Either way, I welcome such a place but decent visibility would be best for all imo.


By sub-forum I meant a section on the main page, like:

Ubuntu Forums > Other Community Discussions > Web Development

[dptxp]

and web site evaluations.



By sub-forum I meant a section on the main page, like:

Ubuntu Forums > Other Community Discussions > Web Development

Oh Yes !!:popcorn:

[Zdravko]

Stop saying yes. Just do it! Now!

[LaRoza]

Stop saying yes. Just do it! Now!

We can't, we are just plebes here. Mods? Admins? Ubuntu-Geek?

[Zdravko]

They seem to have abandoned this place. Let's start a revolution and reshape the forum!

[PriceChild]

Patience, good things come to those who wait :)

I'm sure an admin will come across here soon.

I'm just sat here thinking, this is an Ubuntu support forum, not generic web development so it doesn't really fit with our current forum...

[dfreer]

I'm just sat here thinking, this is an Ubuntu support forum, not generic web development so it doesn't really fit with our current forum...

And yet we have an Other OS forum... :D

[mivo]

I'm just sat here thinking, this is an Ubuntu support forum, not generic web development so it doesn't really fit with our current forum...

Well, the same applies to a number of other forums here. ;)

[PriceChild]

Yes we have offtopic forums... but I "somehow" got the idea in this thread that you would want a support forum for web development. I believe there are other forums on the web established for this purpose and much better populated to help with this task.

[p_quarles]

Yes we have offtopic forums... but I "somehow" got the idea in this thread that you would want a support forum for web development. I believe there are other forums on the web established for this purpose and much better populated to help with this task.
Yeah, for web development support, you're absolutely right. My reason for supporting this idea was less about support and more a place to casually chat, share ideas, and get feedback -- about stuff like "does my site look all right on a 19" widescreen," etc.

I guess I was envisioning something that be low-key, friendly and relatively non-technical, but also a good place to ask where one might go for the best support/instructions on topic x.

This might be different from what others want, but that's what was on my mind.

[PriceChild]

I'd just like to point out that the above is my own personal opinion, and is not the official stance of the administration/staff of this board.

[LaRoza]

I'd just like to point out that the above is my own personal opinion, and is not the official stance of the administration/staff of this board.

I didn't want a support forum, I wanted a "Other Communtiy" forum in line with the "Programming Talk" forum. It will be for general discussions, questions, ideas and such. If someone wants an evaluation of their web site, advice on finding a good host, help with XHTML or CSS, with PHP code, free clip and sound art, browser debates, etc, this forum would be a good place for it.

Instead of a "How Do I Learn XHTML?" in the beginner forum, "How do I get PHP to install?" in the installation and upgrade forum, a "What Browser?" in a the Cafe, "What do you think of my web site?" in the Backyard, and "What is wrong with this PHP?" in the programming talk, this forum would be used.

Thanks for responding PriceChild!

[PriceChild]

Instead of a "How Do I Learn XHTML?" in the beginner forum, "How do I get PHP to install?" in the installation and upgrade forum, a "What Browser?" in a the Cafe, "What do you think of my web site?" in the Backyard, and "What is wrong with this PHP?" in the programming talk, this forum would be used.That's the big problem I think.... there's a big difference between getting a webserver and its components running in Ubuntu, and then building websites on top.

Support for getting the Ubuntu machine running perfectly as a server already has places on this forum. However coding the website etc. I would suggest would do better off elsewhere. I think there's a little confusion over which of the two this subforum is intended to be.

[LaRoza]

I think there's a little confusion over which of the two this subforum is intended to be.

Just a little place for web developers and those interested. Web dev is a complex field and includes art, code, usability, programming, design, browser standards compliance and other topics.

This forum gets posts on the material I feel this suggestion would help. It makes sense to have it in a single area.

[Zdravko]

Wait? How long wait?

[LaRoza]

Wait? How long wait?

Until they implement it, until then, thread hunt time!

[Zdravko]

In my mail it appears you wrote initially:
Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************

---Quote (Originally by Zdravko)---
Wait? How long wait?
---End Quote---
Until Ubuntu-Geek comes back from vacation.
***************

[LaRoza]

In my mail it appears you wrote initially:
Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************

---Quote (Originally by Zdravko)---
Wait? How long wait?
---End Quote---
Until Ubuntu-Geek comes back from vacation.
***************

How would you get it in your mail? Yes, I did initially write "Until Ubuntu-Geek comes back from vacation", but I thought better of it, because I saw two meanings, one not so good.

[LaRoza]

I started my own (http://laroza.phpbbweb.com)

[p_quarles]

Awesome. I'll sign up after I run a few errands. Be sure to put the link in your sig.

[LookTJ]

LaRozza, I was about to host a forum for third-party forums to save ubuntuforum's some room on the index. If you don't mind, can I host a forum?

PS: the forums won't have ads ;)

[LaRoza]

LaRozza, I was about to host a forum for third-party forums to save ubuntuforum's some room on the index. If you don't mind, can I host a forum?

PS: the forums won't have ads ;)

Do you want me to be involved? An adless forum will be great. If you want me to assist you, just PM me. I am not happy with what I made, so you have my blessing, although you don't need it :D

[Henaro]

+1 more for this idea.

[LaRoza]

+1 more for this idea.

It seems to be a third party forum. I am supporting Taylor's efforts, because and ad free one is available.

[LookTJ]

It seems to be a third party forum. I am supporting Taylor's efforts, because and ad free one is available.
One bad point: ubuntuforums members will have to reregister.

[p_quarles]

One bad point: ubuntuforums members will have to reregister.
That could actually go either way. It might cut down on good traffic, but it also might cut down on non-serious posters.

Anyway, I'm excited about this forum, and I'm hoping that the admins will link to it from the main page, much like the Gamers forum. I hereby volunteer my meagre skills should you need any help, Taylor. :D

[LookTJ]

Anyway, I'm excited about this forum, and I'm hoping that the admins will link to it from the main page, much like the Gamers forum. I hereby volunteer my meagre skills should you need any help, Taylor. :D

Thank you for your support. I will release the link when I think it's ready.

[Zdravko]

Taylor (http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=141830), I will wait in anticipation!

[ubuntu-geek]

There is no need to start multiple threads. We have seen your request and we will review it.

[PriceChild]

*groans*

I don't see why creating a new forum was necessary... my point was that there are already great, established forums for just web development. I am also not the person that makes the final decisions :)

[ubuntu-geek]

I agree pricechild there will be no new forum for web development added here.

[LookTJ]

I agree pricechild there will be no new forum for web development added here.
Thank you for your decision, I appreciate it. However, I am hosting this third party forum for Web Design(not just CSS, but everything related to web design) open to all ubuntuforums members.

http://looktj.myvnc.com/ubuntuforums/

[LaRoza]

How about a Web Centric section in the Programming Talk forum?

[DouglasAWh]

I've been posting a lot of web development questions here recently cause I like these forums better than MozillaZine and I've noticed others are posting Web Development questions too. I'm wondering if maybe we should have a sub-forum for Web Development so people know they are welcome.

Thoughts?

[LaRoza]

I already tried: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=585863

Perhaps you could add to the thread.

[DouglasAWh]

I must say (well, I did: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=605273) that I still think this is a good idea.

[pmasiar]

I am really at loss why this idea was rejected by admins.

Web design is so obviously separate issue from programming or system administration for anyone who has any clue in either area. Members liked it. But "know it all" admins don't see the need, so people were forced out of ubuntu forums to run separate. Truly pathetic.

Oh well.

"with great power comes great ... power".

[Zdravko]

pmasiar (http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=130379), the admins here behave very badly since a few months. I got an improper infraction point ( http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=584843 ) Instead of banishing the moderator forever from these forums he was well covered. Now this is pathetic. These forums used to be nice. Now they are a source of evil and corruption.
I also believe a web dev section would be great.

[pmasiar]

For some strange reason forum powers do not like the idea, so there is nothing what can be done I guess.

maybe having a sticky with links to outside forums could be hack workaround.

[matthew]

The web design idea was rejected because it doesn't really fit the main goal of these forums: to help people learn and use Ubuntu.

There are a large number of places where one may learn about web development that already do this well, better than we could do it.

Furthermore, adding a "not directly related to the forum's purpose" topic would only dilute this site's purpose and cause us to fail to serve our users best.

BTW, pmasiar and Zdravko...the off-topic, passive aggressive tone and comments make you both look bad. I just lost a lot of respect for each of you. If you have a problem with these forums and how they are administered, there are positive and useful ways to address them. Grumpy and rude comments inserted in a thread on a different topic almost guarantee that the admins won't see your thoughts, and that we won't consider them especially valuable if we do.

See how that last paragraph made me look like a bit of a jerk? That's what you guys just did. Let's all quit doing that, okay?

[DouglasAWh]

A sticky could work...

[timcredible]

i have a website that i could easily add a forum to and put web development as a sub-forum. if enough people wanted, i would do this, but really, i use joomla (http://joomla.org) for all my websites, and there's already forums for joomla. pm me if you think this subject is worth it's own sub-forum, and if enough people want it, i'll set it up.

[DouglasAWh]

For now, I'll plan to continue to post here and over at MozillaZine. There's also a MySQL mailing list (and an OOo one, for that matter) that I never post to, but could in a pinch. In my case, I've got my professors too.

[LaRoza]

i have a website that i could easily add a forum to and put web development as a sub-forum. if enough people wanted, i would do this, but really, i use joomla (http://joomla.org) for all my websites, and there's already forums for joomla. pm me if you think this subject is worth it's own sub-forum, and if enough people want it, i'll set it up.

No need, there is already one. http://looktj.myvnc.com/ubuntuforums/

[Kadrus]

I think a sticky is better.

[ThinkBuntu]

You can always come over to my web design/development forum. I'd be happy to expand the categories if there were demand to justify it.

[LaRoza]

I'd be happy to expand the categories if there were demand to justify it.

That would be a good idea. Your forum + wiki is better than what exists so far.

[Zdravko]

matthew (http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=17635), I am amazed to read such things from you... Whatever.
Let's stick to the current topic. The link: http://looktj.myvnc.com/ubuntuforums/
issues
Not Found

The requested URL /ubuntuforums/ was not found on this server.
Apache/2.2.4 (Ubuntu) Server at looktj.myvnc.com Port 80

[LaRoza]

I understand why the idea was rejected. Adding new sub forums to an already large forum requires more scrutiny.

I don't like the tension that is forming, so please lock this thread.

[KiwiNZ]

As requested this thread is locked .

[argraff]

XHTML is a markup language, ECMAScript add behaviour. It makes sense not to mix them.

Boy, do I want to pick your brain about this - more info please?! (Don't make fun of me, I've learned everything the hard way - by reading others' code!)

[LaRoza]

Boy, do I want to pick your brain about this - more info please?! (Don't make fun of me, I've learned everything the hard way - by reading others' code!)

Perhaps you want to discuss it on IM? Or on IRC?

[argraff]

Me too. Pity the idea's been canned. Did the advertised third-party forum eventuate? The links were all dead.

Not that I know of. I would really really like to see it happen though - the reasoning was that web design/development wasn't specific to Ubuntu. I'd like to argue that Programming is not either, and that web design/developing is a profession in which Ubuntu already has most, if not all, the tools to compete on an even playing field. I think this is something that Ubuntu should be encouraging! Any other thoughts on that?

[argraff]

Perhaps you want to discuss it on IM? Or on IRC?

IM works for me! Thanks!

[kathryn]

Not that I know of. I would really really like to see it happen though - the reasoning was that web design/development wasn't specific to Ubuntu. I'd like to argue that Programming is not either, and that web design/developing is a profession in which Ubuntu already has most, if not all, the tools to compete on an even playing field. I think this is something that Ubuntu should be encouraging! Any other thoughts on that?

I agree, if programming has its own section, surely web design deserves one too. After all, we use so many different software types in the process of building a site (image manipulation, vector graphics, HTML/CSS/PHP coding tools, not to mention LAMP servers, FTP and SSH, MySQL stuff...the list goes on).

The sheer size of this thread (only 2 or so days old) shows that there is a strong demand for a dedicated section on the forum, and we're all using Ubuntu as web designers. Do you think the higher powers will change their mind on this issue?


There are a lot of Gnome and KDE color picker applets. I used to use Agave, but Geany has a built-in color picker so I didn't bother installing that the last time I updated my system. There's also gcolor2 for Gnome, and probably many more.

Thanks michaelzap! I quite like Geany, so I'll try its colour picker along with some of the other Gnome offerings.

[littlemog]

oh we could band together on irc/im or just email the ******** outta one another. :)

yes, i think that's what we should pretty darn do.

[kathryn]

I just took a peek in #ubuntu (IRC). Way too confusing, and certainly no substitute for a forum (unless we're just up for idle chit-chat). The latter enables all users to view threads any time.

I've noticed that the Ubuntu forum closely resembles the PHP Builder forum... how difficult would it be to set up our own, "Ubuntu for web designers"? It's beyond my abilities but I'd be willing to help out.

[LaRoza]

I just took a peek in #ubuntu (IRC). Way too confusing, and certainly no substitute for a forum (unless we're just up for idle chit-chat). The latter enables all users to view threads any time.


There is also #ubuntu-programming and a few others.

[michaelzap]

Setting up a forum isn't all that difficult. You just need a domain name, web hosting, and whatever forum software you like best. But it wouldn't be the same as having a dedicated subforum here where people will look for it and search results would be integrated with the rest of these forums.

It is a shame that the idea has been nixed so far. I think there are a lot more web design-specific issues to discuss that relate to Ubuntu than there are programming issues, really. For me it was something of a struggle to move from Windows to Linux because I needed to be sure that I had the tools necessary to get my work done.

I would think that it would be a great place for all sorts of Ubuntu-specific discussions, such as how to use the Gimp or Inkscape for design, editors and IDEs for coding, IEs4Linux, virtual machines, etc. for cross-browser testing, as well as LAMP, CVS, and all sorts of other stuff that might help other curious web designers make the switch (and those of us who already have do our work better).

[kathryn]

Yeah, so how do we go about convincing others that we need and deserve a sub-section on this forum? Any practical advice?

[littlemog]

I haven't a clue on convincing the higher powers (i'm still young in the nux world)... but i could setup a forum on my servers. given that just the handful posting here it might be a good start. what do you guys feel?

[argraff]

My husband just set up phpBB (?) on his site, so he might be willing to help if we get stuck...

Yes, a computer science prof and a web designer in the same house - his brother's a programmer and when we get together everyone else rolls their eyes and yawns...:)

I'd prefer it here on the forums, but I don't know how to make it happen. littlemog - that would be way cool - I'd use it! :)

[littlemog]

wow argraff... dynamic duo! I wish my girlfriend programmed... LOL... *looks paranoid around shoulder

well i'll see what i can come up over the weekend. if all else failed, then we'll mop around til the higher powers hears us.

[argraff]

Lol - Husband said something similar about the guys on Slashdot being envious...

*moping* (Are the admins looking yet???) *more moping*

[littlemog]

haha... i'll bet. what do you both do to get away from the hum drum of the virtual world? i get a real orbit when my gf asks me what i'm doing and i'm getting excited about ubuntu and running gos on the other box typing my docs and her totality of a response after my blabbering was

'oh. sounds... nice.'

[kathryn]

Lol. Are they (female programmers) really so rare? I'm a web designer and my bf is a FOSS programmer in his spare time. It is a good combo, we understand each other's bubbling enthusiasm about geeky computer things. :)

Maybe if we mope enough they'll cave and give us a sub-section. :P

More seriously, if I want to offer a structured argument as to why a web design forum is warranted, how do I go about conveying this to the admins/mods? Do I start a new thread, or write to them in some other way?

[SpiderGorilla]

You've got to message them directly. As with any forum, it's best if you assume they really only have time to police the forums if there's a problem. They may have seen this thread, but there's every bit as good a chance they haven't had time.

[littlemog]

let's keep our fingers crossed then. kathryn u gonna mope the powers above?

[LaRoza]

You've got to message them directly. As with any forum, it's best if you assume they really only have time to police the forums if there's a problem. They may have seen this thread, but there's every bit as good a chance they haven't had time.

You are better off posting in the Forum Feedback and Help.

Maybe a revived effort would make it happen...

[argraff]

haha... i'll bet. what do you both do to get away from the hum drum of the virtual world? i get a real orbit when my gf asks me what i'm doing and i'm getting excited about ubuntu and running gos on the other box typing my docs and her totality of a response after my blabbering was

'oh. sounds... nice.'

Sometimes I win the geeky award - I want to put Linux on an iPod (don't have one yet, don't want to actually hand Apple money...).

To get away? Mostly hang out with our friends and family. We each have our own hobbies and enjoy the alone time too. It's all about balance. :)

@LaRoza: do you think the admins will actually read another thread pleading for a subsection? What about a poll? (They're pretty busy, I'm guessing, so maybe a quick look at '225 people want a web design section' would be easier?)

[LaRoza]

@LaRoza: do you think the admins will actually read another thread pleading for a subsection? What about a poll? (They're pretty busy, I'm guessing, so maybe a quick look at '225 people want a web design section' would be easier?)

Yes, if there was a stronger desire for it, they may see the reasoning.

[LaRoza]

Note to admins: The last several posts are from another thread from the Art and Desgin forum.

[duckgoesoink]

I've moved the posts about a subforum for web development to Request for a web development sub-forum (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=585863)

I really think that there should be a subforum for web development - we're designing and developing on the Ubuntu operating system, using software programs that are supplied with or compatible with Ubuntu (Inkscape, GIMP, various text editors, development servers, etc).

Web design and development is something Ubuntu is very capable of, straight off the shelf (or with more programs added through the package manager), and it should be pushed - to potential users, web design on a linux box is often perceived as impossible. Linux is well known for being a good web server environment, but less known for being a good web design/development environment. This needs to change, and a subforum will help make that clear.

As the Ubuntu user base grows, so will the number of web designers posting in unrelated areas of the forum (including cross posts all through the art & design section, the programming section, the absolute beginners section, the multimedia section, the community cafe section, etc). If there was a subforum everything would be in one place, making it easier for everyone trying to find information and solutions to various problems using this platform, including learning to use and set up Ubuntu and it's programs for web design.

(Obviously it would be a forum about Ubuntu-based web design.)

[kathryn]

I am writing to revive the request for a web development sub-forum.

Having read an earlier thread (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=585863) initated by LaRoza, these are the current arguments against the creation of a sub-forum for web designers:

1. There are other established forums (external to the Ubuntu forums) for web development.

2. The suggestion of a web design sub-forum does not fit the primary goal of these forums: “To help people learn and use Ubuntu”.

3. The addition of a sub-forum which is “not directly related to the forum's purpose” would “dilute this site's purpose”. It is further argued that this would lead to a failure to serve the users of this forum.

I genuinely believe that our request is warranted, but I do not wish to incite a “flame war” against the administrators of the forum. Users who wish to lend support to this request should refrain from using inflammatory language and aggressive tones. I will ask forum staff to remove posts which are not in-keeping with the spirit of this thread.

Some of the arguments I use in this post are built upon the excellent ideas of other users who have already posted material on this issue. I can't take all the credit.

Now I will present the counter arguments to each of the above points in turn.


1. There are other established forums (external to the Ubuntu forums) for web development.


This argument similarly applies to existing sub-forums offered by ubuntuforums.org. In particular, the “Programming Talk” section of the Development and Programming Forum arguably resembles the countless programming forums offered on the internet. A quick Google search for “programming forum” retrieves many pages. Some of these forums are specific to a programming language (e.g. C++) or may be more generalist in nature.

In fact, the sub-title to the “Programming Talk” forum states that
“The questions do not have to be directly related to Ubuntu and any language is allowed.”

However, there is clearly a need for sub-forums dealing with (for example) packaging and compiling software in Ubuntu, since the processes are usually distribution-specific. I have no qualms there.

At this point I would argue that web developers constitute a vast and diverse body of Ubuntu users who will benefit from a Web Design forum. Such users range from newbies to experienced web designers asking questions which are scattered across the many forums on this site – from “Absolute Beginners” and “General Help” to “Art and Design” and “Programming”.

In a similar vein to the “Programming Talk” section, a dedicated sub-forum could bring together the web design issues (which are continually posted on the site) relating to the following:

- Web designers wishing to move across from another OS, and all associated concerns:

. availability of suitable software
. use of such software
. establishment of LAMP servers (obviously including installation of Apache, MySQL and PHP)
. CVS

...much in the same way that new users to Ubuntu are permitted to post queries about Linux-friendly IDEs, text editors and bash scripting.

- Use of the IDEs/coding tools for (X)HTML / DHTML / XSLT / XML / CSS / ECMAScript (e.g. JavaScript) / Server-side scripting (e.g. PHP)
- Use of command-line or user interface tools for FTP and SSH
- Use of vector-graphics and image manipuation programs such as Inkscape and GIMP in a web design context, including construction of site designs, graphic-based navigation components of sites, and so on...
- Virtual machines, etc. for cross-browser testing
- Good web design practices (much as programmers would discuss good programming practices)

Web developers must deal with content (words), presentation (appearance and user interface), behaviour (client- and server-side scripting), and back-end components such as databases and website management. Web designers are not particularly welcome/encouraged in the programming forum or the #ubuntu-programming IRC channel (I was in there yesterday and the other room inhabitants were bemused by my presence), and the “Art and Design” forum addresses only one aspect of a web designer's job.

There is no doubt that a separate web design sub-forum would be frequented by the forum users. Other users have cited seeing questions such as “How Do I Learn XHTML?" in the Beginner forum, "How do I install PHP?" in the Installation and Upgrade forum, a "What Browser?" in the Cafe, "What do you think of my web site?" in the Backyard, and "What is wrong with this PHP?" in Programming Talk. Many users have already expressed a keen interest, with one user writing that they prefer to post in these Ubuntu forums over other offerings on the internet.

2. The suggestion of a web design sub-forum does not fit the primary goal of these forums: “To help people learn and use Ubuntu”.


The existence of a sub-forum would assist curious web designers make the switch to Ubuntu, and help existing Ubuntu-based web designers to solve problems together. I believe this is in-keeping with the quoted primary goal of the forums. Have a look at Ubuntu Bug #1: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1. Surely a web design forum will contribute to the, err, “extermination” of this bug.

Referring back to my comments in (1), I would argue that the “Programming Talk” sub-forum is not in-keeping with the primary goal of the Ubuntu forums. Let me quote again:
“The questions do not have to be directly related to Ubuntu and any language is allowed.”

Aside from the Ubuntu-specific nature of packaging and compiling, programming languages and the text editors or IDEs are often cross-distribution (or even cross-platform, e.g. NetBeans). Therefore providing forum space to address such issues is surely not entirely consistent with the stated primary goal. Besides, there are other forums on the internet for using the various languages and IDEs – again, refer to point (1).

Furthermore, the various software which aids programmers in their work are almost entirely not distribution-specific. Rather, they are desktop specific – namely, KDE (e.g. KDevelop) or GNOME (e.g. Anjuta, Glade). There are established third-party forums dedicated to the KDE and GNOME desktops [see point (1)] and often the individual software has at least a mailing list to support users.

3. The addition of a sub-forum which is “not directly related to the forum's purpose” would “dilute this site's purpose”. It is further argued that this would lead to a failure to serve the users of this forum.


I think I've already discussed points (1) and (2) sufficiently to argue that the forum's purpose would not be “diluted” further by the addition of a web design sub-forum.

Finally, the issue of sub-forum location.


At this point, the web designers would probably settle for a sub-forum in any location of ubuntuforums.org. Various locations have already been suggested, so there are many options:
- As a Web Development sub-forum of “Programming and Development”
- As a sub-forum of “Art and Design”
- As a standalone sub-forum (e.g. in “Other Community Discussions”)
- As a sub-forum of the “Forum Community Discussions”, along the lines of “Community Cafe Games”

The users with a vested interest in the creation of the web design forum will be happy to negotiate the location of the forum with the site administrators.

[kathryn]

For anyone interested, I have posted a new thread (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=705947) in the Feedback section of the Ubuntu site, requesting they reconsider the formation of a web design sub-forum.

I have attached a poll.

[kathryn]

My new thread (see below) has just been closed (about an hour after its creation), by a site administrator.

UPDATE: My new thread has been tacked onto the end of LaRoza's thread (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=585863) and the poll now says 1337 "no" votes against 3 "yes" votes. LaRoza has re-opened the thread.


For anyone interested, I have posted a new thread (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=705947) in the Feedback section of the Ubuntu site, requesting they reconsider the formation of a web design sub-forum.

I have attached a poll.

[LaRoza]

Note to admins: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=698004

In short, I suggested that in lieu of a new forum, Programming Talk be renamed to Programming and Web Development, so the two, not always Ubuntu-specific, subject would have a clear place to live.

[duckgoesoink]

My new thread (see below) has just been closed (about an hour after its creation), by a site administrator.

UPDATE: My new thread has been tacked onto the end of LaRoza's thread (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=585863) and the poll now says 1337 "no" votes against 3 "yes" votes. LaRoza has re-opened the thread.

Why did they do that? Surely it would have been more objective to leave it as a new thread, to evaluate based on current opinions. 1337 of them voted no? They must really hate web designers...


Web design in a Linux environment (almost no WYSIWYG possible) is like cooking from scratch - you might save time using a pre-made sauce, but it will always taste better when you take a few more minutes to combine the ingredients yourself.

[littlemog]

sheeesh i just voted and saw the numbers for myself... ugh. well this calls for a change.. i'm provoked to go write a whole buncha tutorials on web design on ubuntu when my boss goes on leave... >.<

well, good try kathryn, at least we know what the current odds are and what to work around.

[LaRoza]

Why did they do that? Surely it would have been more objective to leave it as a new thread, to evaluate based on current opinions. 1337 of them voted no? They must really hate web designers...


Web design in a Linux environment (almost no WYSIWYG possible) is like cooking from scratch - you might save time using a pre-made sauce, but it will always taste better when you take a few more minutes to combine the ingredients yourself.

Post this there so they can here your opinion.

[littlemog]

well as promised earlier before the threads got relocation, i'll try and setup a temporary board if anyone is keen to use it for the purpose of discussion on webdesign & ubuntu. it's raw off a cpanel install, its 2am and i got work in the morning so no tweaking of the themes/skins yada yada but it's functional and i tried to setup a barebones structure. give it a go if you're a web designer of any sorts on ubuntu, and if you've the time (i don't, with multiple projects at work) and could suggest for new boards/themes... i'll be happy to have some help.

Ubunfix - Forums for Webdesigners on Ubuntu
http://ubunfix.cosmofury.com/

or at least till we get somewhere (past the 13xx poll results >.<)

[kathryn]

Why did they do that? Surely it would have been more objective to leave it as a new thread, to evaluate based on current opinions. 1337 of them voted no? They must really hate web designers...

LaRoza posted a poll with the original thread, right? If the initial poll had the options (yes/no) flipped, it could explain the huge number of 'no' votes (if the original poll and mine were pooled). NB: No one has voted no since the thread was re-opened. I have no idea where 1337 came from.

[littlemog]

and the numbers seem a bit overwhelming... bug?

[LaRoza]

and the numbers seem a bit overwhelming... bug?

For those that do not know, 1337 is a number that means something. Someone, possibly an admin must have added it to prove a point. (A joke)

I have discussed this with an admin, and I have added it to the Forum Council Agenda for the next meeting.

With the creation of the Development and Programming forum, the addition of a web development forum is more likely.

I will attend the meeting, but if for some reason I can't, I would like to have someone as backup so the item isn't skipped because of my absense.

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncilAgenda

[aysiu]

Until it has been decided on by the Forum Council, can we at least reopen the thread and move the relevant posts there? People should be allowed to discuss it unless a hard decision has come down that it'll never happen in the near future.

[LaRoza]

Until it has been decided on by the Forum Council, can we at least reopen the thread and move the relevant posts there? People should be allowed to discuss it unless a hard decision has come down that it'll never happen in the near future.

There is a thread closed somewhere? If you are refering to my old thread, that was reopened.

Actually, it was closed a while ago when it started to get ugly...

(I requested it to be closed at the time)

[littlemog]

sounds great... hope they come to a decision during the meeting. thanks a lot!

[aysiu]

There is a thread closed somewhere? If you are refering to my old thread, that was reopened.

Actually, it was closed a while ago when it started to get ugly...

(I requested it to be closed at the time)
I guess it's open again now. I could have sworn it was closed.

I re-read the whole thread, and I didn't see it getting ugly.

As stated before, I think it's best to leave it open until the Forum Council has a final decision about it.

If the Forum Council finally decides against it, I think it should be re-closed. In the meantime, people should be able to discuss it.

My own point of view on the matter--I agree in theory that it is too large a topic to have its own subforum here, and it isn't really directly related to Ubuntu. On the other hand, we do continually get web design support requests and discussions here with no real place to put them, and I think they naturally flood the Programming Talk subforum, which annoys the programmers who do not want web design talk there.

In other words, I can see it going either way.

But unless we decide to ban web design talk altogether, we should have an agreed-upon place to put web design support requests and discussions, whether it be in a web design subforum or in the Community Cafe somewhere... or in Programming Talk.

[kathryn]

For those that do not know, 1337 is a number that means something. Someone, possibly an admin must have added it to prove a point. (A joke)

That "joke" is in extremely poor taste and reflects badly on the administrators. I'm not amused in the slightest and I think the poll should be returned to reflect the true results. What is the point of offering poll functionality if the admins can play "God" with the data? I was suspicious of the number 1337 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leet) but I (naively) dismissed the possibility of a rigged poll.


I have discussed this with an admin, and I have added it to the Forum Council Agenda for the next meeting.

With the creation of the Development and Programming forum, the addition of a web development forum is more likely.

I will attend the meeting, but if for some reason I can't, I would like to have someone as backup so the item isn't skipped because of my absense.

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncilAgenda

Only forum staff can attend, I'm guessing?

[aysiu]

That "joke" is in extremely poor taste and reflects badly on the administrators. I'm not amused in the slightest and I think the poll should be returned to reflect the true results. What is the point of offering poll functionality if the admins can play "God" with the data? I was suspicious of the number 1337 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leet) but I dismissed the possibility of a rigged poll.



Only forum staff can attend, I'm guessing?
I'm not sure who put the 1337 in (I don't even know how to tamper with polls myself), but I agree it is in poor taste. Can you run a few poll options by me, and I'll try to reinstate a normal poll into this thread?

Anyone can attend Forum Council meetings, however. From the Forum Council Wiki page (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncil):
* Meetings are held monthly on channel #ubuntu-meeting on freenode. Forum Council meetings are open to any and all who want to attend.

[kathryn]

I'm not sure who put the 1337 in (I don't even know how to tamper with polls myself), but I agree it is in poor taste. Can you run a few poll options by me, and I'll try to reinstate a normal poll into this thread?

Anyone can attend Forum Council meetings, however. From the Forum Council Wiki page (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncil):

Some options:


Do you support the proposal to introduce a sub-forum dedicated to web development? (Yes / No)
Would you benefit from a sub-forum dedicated to web development? (Yes / No)
Is there a need for a web development sub-forum on this site? (Yes / No)
Have you ever posted a web development question on the Ubuntu forums site? (Yes / No)
Do you visit the Ubuntu forums for advice on web development with Ubuntu? (Yes / No)
Do you participate in web development/design, as a hobby or a professional? (Yes / No)


I think the item in bold would be the most telling question...

[littlemog]

anyone can attend? why, we should then, shouldn't we? *winks

[kathryn]

A sincere thank you to whoever returned integrity to the poll data associated with this thread!

[aysiu]

Some options:


Do you support the proposal to introduce a sub-forum dedicated to web development? (Yes / No)
Would you benefit from a sub-forum dedicated to web development? (Yes / No)
Is there a need for a web development sub-forum on this site? (Yes / No)
Have you ever posted a web development question on the Ubuntu forums site? (Yes / No)
Do you visit the Ubuntu forums for advice on web development with Ubuntu? (Yes / No)
Do you participate in web development/design, as a hobby or a professional? (Yes / No)


I think the item in bold would be the most telling question...
I have to warn you, though, that multiple-select polls do not add up to 100%, and they're a little hard to make sense of. The polls don't really work on a yes/no basis. You select which poll options you want and vote on those.

Can I suggest you make a single-select poll that asks users to select the option that most closely reflects their strongest opinion?

[aysiu]

A sincere thank you to whoever returned integrity to the poll data associated with this thread!
Oh, that happened quickly and without my intervention. Great!

[LaRoza]

That "joke" is in extremely poor taste and reflects badly on the administrators. I'm not amused in the slightest and I think the poll should be returned to reflect the true results. What is the point of offering poll functionality if the admins can play "God" with the data? I was suspicious of the number 1337 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leet) but I (naively) dismissed the possibility of a rigged poll.


It was likely not thought of as such, and may have been another moderator (probably a joke on me actually).



I'm not sure who put the 1337 in (I don't even know how to tamper with polls myself), but I agree it is in poor taste. Can you run a few poll options by me, and I'll try to reinstate a normal poll into this thread?

Anyone can attend Forum Council meetings, however. From the Forum Council Wiki page (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncil):

"Edit Poll", in the upper left of the poll. You can add, remove, and change the numbers.


anyone can attend? why, we should then, shouldn't we? *winks

I feel that this thread, and a single person (me, if nothing happens between now and then) are enough. I don't want to have the council overwhelmed. Of course, you can attend, but since I added it to the agenda, it is my responsibility to be there.

[aysiu]

"Edit Poll", in the upper left of the poll. You can add, remove, and change the numbers. I don't have that option or am not seeing it.

[LaRoza]

I don't have that option or am not seeing it.

This is a thread in the Cafe Games, that I didn't create.

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/4223/nonamevq8.png

[kathryn]

I have to warn you, though, that multiple-select polls do not add up to 100%, and they're a little hard to make sense of. The polls don't really work on a yes/no basis. You select which poll options you want and vote on those.

Can I suggest you make a single-select poll that asks users to select the option that most closely reflects their strongest opinion?

The % votes does add up to 100% now.

If you're still interested in changing the poll question, what about something like this:

What do you think of the request to create a web development sub-forum on this site? Why?

Choose one of the following responses:


I support the request. I already use Ubuntu for web development.
I support the request. I want to use Ubuntu for web development but I need help switching from another operating system.
I support the request. I'm a newbie to web design and would like to learn on Ubuntu.
I support the request, although I am not involved in web development (or rely on another OS).
I do NOT support the request. I already use Ubuntu for web development.
I do NOT support the request. I intend to use Ubuntu for web development.
I do NOT support the request. I am not involved in web development.
I do NOT support the request. My involvement is irrelevant.
I have no strong opinion either way.

[duckgoesoink]

For those that do not know, 1337 is a number that means something. Someone, possibly an admin must have added it to prove a point. (A joke)

Hah, I didn't even even understand that until now - I don't use internet spelling. It's not funny.

[LaRoza]

Hah, I didn't even even understand that until now - I don't use internet spelling. It's not funny.

It was most likely a joke against me, as this was my (old) thread that was closed, therefore no one could post on it.

Whoever did it, must have realized the thread was now open and fixed it so the votes would make sense.

[kathryn]

It was most likely a joke against me, as this was my (old) thread that was closed, therefore no one could post on it.

Whoever did it, must have realized the thread was now open and fixed it so the votes would make sense.

Good thing too. The poll results clearly reflect a differing view to the "joke" data.

[stalkier]

I think it is a very good idea. I am using Ubuntu on my older desktop right now and I still do some web design work on it. I think it is a very good idea and don't know why it wasn't concidered earlier. I truly hope it goes though for you buddy.

[runningwithscissors]

LOL. Web designers wanting to use Linux.

I thought they were in love with their gaudy Apple PCs.

[kathryn]

LOL. Web designers wanting to use Linux.

I thought they were in love with their gaudy Apple PCs.

Who cares which OS the web designers are switching from? The fact that they use or want to use Ubuntu is what matters. This is an Ubuntu forum, after all...

[kathryn]

LaRoza,

what transpired at the council meeting? Any news?

[LaRoza]

LaRoza,

what transpired at the council meeting? Any news?

Yes. They are working on such a development, and they are planning changes that will benefit the entire forum. It will take some time, of course, but it should be worth it.

The transcript of the meeting is in the Forum Council Agenda forum

http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=318