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arnieboy
August 18th, 2005, 06:36 PM
Ok for starters, this is not an ubuntu bashing thread.. but its just to discuss what people like least about this great distro which is probably all set to become the most popular in the next year or so.
I will start off by saying: The Ubuntu backports is a fabulous project and effort but the speed at which different softwares are updated on backports is a little too slow. thats what I like least about ubuntu. Probably a little bit more manpower can solve the problem..

void_false
August 18th, 2005, 06:43 PM
DNS fadeouts and inability to change keyboard layout with LeftAlt+LeftShift.

Kvark
August 18th, 2005, 07:00 PM
Synaptic/apt-get does not always automatically add shortcuts to the programs it installs to the menu.

TheDude
August 18th, 2005, 07:13 PM
Its more a Gnome thing, but the network tool sucks in Hoary.

krusbjorn
August 18th, 2005, 07:17 PM
been having irritating problems with the sound since early warty, even though this fantastic community has had a lot of threads about it.

SGC
August 18th, 2005, 07:26 PM
It uses Gnome by default

GeneralZod
August 18th, 2005, 07:38 PM
It uses Gnome by default

Beat me to it :)

aysiu
August 18th, 2005, 08:14 PM
All the problem I have with Ubuntu are really Gnome/Nautilus problems:

- needing SMEG to edit the menus
- not being able to double-click open .php files
- other partitions not seen unless they're put in the /etc/fstab file
- numlockx needed just to have numlock turn on by default

Of course, KDE does have all these things, but I don't like KDE--it kind of hangs on my computer, for some reason. I also like Gnome's theme installation is a lot easier and more consistent.

arnieboy
August 18th, 2005, 08:15 PM
It uses Gnome by default
if KDE started using the gtk2 engine I would probably start using KDE too (lol)

Brunellus
August 18th, 2005, 08:19 PM
All the problem I have with Ubuntu are really Gnome/Nautilus problems:

- needing SMEG to edit the menus
- not being able to double-click open .php files
- other partitions not seen unless they're put in the /etc/fstab file
- numlockx needed just to have numlock turn on by default

Of course, KDE does have all these things, but I don't like KDE--it kind of hangs on my computer, for some reason. I also like Gnome's theme installation is a lot easier and more consistent.
I was disappointed by the intial lack of a menu editor for gnome 2.10--it made me miss 2.8, fast!

Smeg is a good stopgap; I'm hoping gnome 2.12 will completely rectify this idiotic omission.

pmj
August 18th, 2005, 08:20 PM
The default theme.

Stormy Eyes
August 18th, 2005, 08:21 PM
I don't like Ubuntu's use of ESD (Enlightened Sound Daemon) to provide software mixing. I have an Audigy, which does mixing in hardware, so ESD just gets in the way. But that's OK. I can deal with having to disable ESD on installs.

aysiu
August 18th, 2005, 08:21 PM
It uses Gnome by default I thought that was what Kubuntu was for.

arnieboy
August 18th, 2005, 09:00 PM
I don't like Ubuntu's use of ESD (Enlightened Sound Daemon) to provide software mixing. I have an Audigy, which does mixing in hardware, so ESD just gets in the way. But that's OK. I can deal with having to disable ESD on installs.
yeah its high time they phased ESD out... and started working on ALSA to make it universal.

Stormy Eyes
August 18th, 2005, 09:02 PM
yeah its high time they phased ESD out... and started working on ALSA to make it universal.

ALSA already has dmix, which should provide software mixing already. Maybe they'll kill -9 the damn thing after Breezy.

weasel fierce
August 18th, 2005, 09:03 PM
Nothing I outright hate, but I would propably say hardware detection is the main thing now. Propably one of the hardest to do, as well

GeneralZod
August 18th, 2005, 09:35 PM
ALSA already has dmix, which should provide software mixing already. Maybe they'll kill -9 the damn thing after Breezy.

I think aRts (or however it's capitalised :)) is on the way out with KDE 4.0, too, so perhaps ALSA will be the only remaining sound server eventualy.

Curlydave
August 18th, 2005, 10:09 PM
The default fonts suck. They're uneven, ratty and rather unpleasant-looking.

drizek
August 18th, 2005, 10:16 PM
I think aRts (or however it's capitalised :)) is on the way out with KDE 4.0, too, so perhaps ALSA will be the only remaining sound server eventualy.
ya, arts is going to be replaced by KDEMM.

xequence
August 18th, 2005, 10:32 PM
Uh... The fact I have no idea how to install things that arnt in repositories :P I wanted to see if XPDE was good and it just gave me a compressed file. Thats one thing I like about windows, you can just download one .exe and it will install everything :P

Apt-get/synaptic > exe installer > weird compressed file

somuchfortheafter
August 18th, 2005, 11:05 PM
the fact i have to use a third party app to use wpa, although supplicant is a much better application for wireless network management even if it is just a txt file configuration. also no bootsplash screen. Lack of a pretty default background.

allans
August 19th, 2005, 12:30 AM
Within five minutes of booting ubuntu is set up perfectly for me - just change the theme and fonts. Video is the weakest area of ubuntu imo.

RastaMahata
August 19th, 2005, 01:42 AM
Ubuntu:
Default Audio config, by far.
locknumx not installed by default.
non landscape background. I would still use brown (it is the brown distro), but use a sunset or a desert...
Applications without menu icons.
Spatial by default, closing the previous window.

Gnome:

give me a menu editor
Why can't I install a .deb package with synaptic, either by drag & drop or "file > install..."?
If I remove all the gnome panels, there's no simpleway to add a new one (Really, a right click in the desktop, and selecting "add new panel" wouldnt hurt).
adsl GUI config tool by default. Not everyone knows about pppoeconf, specially newbies. If integrated with the network config tool, better yet.

well... I think that's it right now... :P

arnieboy
August 19th, 2005, 02:01 AM
Within five minutes of booting ubuntu is set up perfectly for me - just change the theme and fonts. Video is the weakest area of ubuntu imo.
"weak" is a wrong word to use. Ubuntu is as good as any other linux distro (if not better) with videos. but yes.. a little tweaking here and there is necessary all of which has been covered in this forum. If I were a newb however, i wud want to see all these tweaks installed by default.

arnieboy
August 19th, 2005, 02:03 AM
the fact i have to use a third party app to use wpa, although supplicant is a much better application for wireless network management even if it is just a txt file configuration. also no bootsplash screen. Lack of a pretty default background.
when u use windows, almost every app is a third party app.
bootsplash screen:the splashy HowTo has been covered in detail in this forum. a boot splashcreen will come as default with breezy.
lack of default pretty desktop background?? .. heh...

arnieboy
August 19th, 2005, 02:05 AM
Nothing I outright hate, but I would propably say hardware detection is the main thing now. Propably one of the hardest to do, as well
if terrorists worldwide cud force hardware manufacturers to write drivers for linux at gunpoint, this would become the easiest thing to do on linux and Microsoft will become bankrupt in 1 month flat.

arnieboy
August 19th, 2005, 02:14 AM
Uh... The fact I have no idea how to install things that arnt in repositories :P I wanted to see if XPDE was good and it just gave me a compressed file. Thats one thing I like about windows, you can just download one .exe and it will install everything :P

Apt-get/synaptic > exe installer > weird compressed file
The mysteries of the weird compressed files can quite easily be unraveled by reading the "README" and/or "INSTALL" file locked within (heh). On a more serious note, yes I do admit binary installers are easier (read as less time consuming) to handle even if u arent a newb.

thecrimsonking
August 19th, 2005, 04:19 AM
KDE isn't the default desktop environment.

flange
August 19th, 2005, 04:42 AM
There's not enough spyware available in the repos.

Seriously though, brown is the only thing I don't really like about Ubuntu. I try to get rid of it, but I can't seem to weed it all out.

kokiri
August 19th, 2005, 06:51 AM
ndiswrapper that just works and is current from the start....it's a super easy package to just roll into a setup yet it's extremely lacking by default.

It took me 3 hours to get ndiswrapper to work from sources and I've done it quite a few times before on other distros without using binary packages in 10 minutes. Otherwise I love Ubuntu switched from Suse 9.3 to it.

poofyhairguy
August 19th, 2005, 08:45 AM
What I like least about Ubuntu:

The fact that its tagline/translation- "humanity to others"- has been used to support everything from getting rid of Ubuntu to turning Ubuntu into a Windows clone.

I wish I could make it against the rules here to use the word "humanity" in any post that does describe every person on the earth.

Stormy Eyes
August 19th, 2005, 05:22 PM
The default fonts suck. They're uneven, ratty and rather unpleasant-looking.

The Bitstream Vera fonts? They're among the cleanest, most readable fonts I've ever seen. You should have seen Linux fonts before X Window did easy antialiasing: it was horrible.

zorba64
August 20th, 2005, 02:50 AM
1 Can't seem to kill the tab completion beep in the VT's
2 Messes with the WinXp partitions time.

Otherwise breezy from colony 3 is "damn fine machinery"

Orunitia
August 20th, 2005, 03:29 AM
Videos. I installed all the codecs I needed, but some wmv files still have no sound. Otherwise I'm happy.

sethmahoney
August 20th, 2005, 03:32 AM
Lack of hardware support and the fact that you have to do some things by the command line or by editing obscure files. Oh, and the lack of a useful help system. Which reminds me: Anybody interested in doing work on help/documentation for Ubuntu? Is there anybody already working on that?

aysiu
August 20th, 2005, 03:45 AM
1 Can't seem to kill the tab completion beep in the VT's Have you tried going to System > Preferences > Sound > Sound Events?

MetalMusicAddict
August 20th, 2005, 03:54 AM
Samba not included on installed is my biggest gripe but its a small problem. :) Apt and the Unofficial guide is great.

Breezy has done some nice things. I noticed that I can now define mount points for NTFS and FAT partitions at install. I didnt think I could do that in Hoary. Breezy will be awesome and I caint wait to see what Ubuntu looks like in a year or two. :)

aysiu
August 20th, 2005, 04:00 AM
Breezy has done some nice things. I noticed that I can now define mount points for NTFS and FAT partitions at install. I didnt think I could do that in Hoary. I could define the mount point for FAT but not NTFS in Hoary.

ssck
August 20th, 2005, 04:10 AM
1) DNS disappearing
2) Video support
3) Battery support for laptops (in particular Acer Travelmate)

Other than that I am happy with it.Looking forward to Breezy in October :)

supernaut
August 20th, 2005, 01:02 PM
The lack of polish in the sense that the fonts are ugly, there's a lack of slickness (for lack of a better word) on the start-up and shut down and that you often see flickering on the desktop and windows without widgets drawn (and this is on a 2300+, it's snappy enough in the sense of clicking and action, it's just the drawing that is the problem).

Oh - and one more if I'm allowed it: the brown. ;)

Lord Illidan
August 20th, 2005, 01:18 PM
I say the colour brown...

Also, I think Gnome 2.10's lack of a menu editor is extremely stupid, and goes against the "you can configure anything" motto of linux and opensource software!

craigevil
August 20th, 2005, 03:29 PM
The biggest drawback of Ubuntu, the fact that you can't use regular Debian repositories.
Debian unstable and sometime even Testing is more up to date than even the Ubuntu Backports.
Not to mention all of the repositories available at www.apt-get.org

One example Xfce, on my Debian system I am running Xfce 4.2.2, Ubuntu only has 4.2.1 not that big of a difference. Also a some of the apps in Debian are not in Ubuntu repositories like Bookmarkbridge.


Other than that Ubuntu is a great distro, can't wait to see what changes are in store with Breezy.

a-nubi-s
August 20th, 2005, 03:58 PM
In a word - Metacity

Stormy Eyes
August 20th, 2005, 03:59 PM
Also, I think Gnome 2.10's lack of a menu editor is extremely stupid, and goes against the "you can configure anything" motto of linux and opensource software!

Be patient. They're working on it.

Lovechild
August 20th, 2005, 04:03 PM
two things:

1) No proactive security like Fedora provides (SELinux, Exec-shield, FORTIFY_SOURCE, etc)
2) sudo, which I personally loath - it's a stupid, heartless thing to inflict on your fellow human beings

Skatox
August 20th, 2005, 04:50 PM
* Use of smeg for editing menus,
* Gnome-panels
* Metacity,


I think it's not ubuntu problem, more like gnome problem XD

arnieboy
August 20th, 2005, 06:49 PM
* Use of smeg for editing menus,
* Gnome-panels
* Metacity,


I think it's not ubuntu problem, more like gnome problem XD
what do u not like about gnome panels?

poofyhairguy
August 20th, 2005, 07:30 PM
In a word - Metacity

Lol. I agree with this one. The "drawing black lines to minimize things" idea was one of the worst I have ever encountered. Where is our competition to the genie effect? Even e16 (pretty old) has a better minimize trick.

jerome bettis
August 20th, 2005, 07:42 PM
In a word - Metacity
AGREED

i need to find a way to get a window to be sticky asap

Stormy Eyes
August 20th, 2005, 08:25 PM
AGREED

i need to find a way to get a window to be sticky asap

Start with sudo apt-get install openbox obconf and then openbox --replace. :)

isTHEr3mOr3
August 20th, 2005, 11:33 PM
Better Mplayer support (apt-get). In Fedora it works IMHO better, more stable and the mplayer-mozilla plugin installed on Fedora had the full screen option.
Easier dual booting install (f.a. like Suse)

Make Mythtv and tvcards easier to install, and work with, out of the box (that's probably a Linux issue)

Lovechild
August 21st, 2005, 01:14 AM
Better Mplayer support (apt-get). In Fedora it works IMHO better, more stable and the mplayer-mozilla plugin installed on Fedora had the full screen option.
Easier dual booting install (f.a. like Suse)

Make Mythtv and tvcards easier to install, and work with, out of the box (that's probably a Linux issue)

As much as mplayer disgusts me on a personal level, I will shoot that one down with the patent argument - I'm sorry but we cannot distribute patented software it is ILLEGAL.

If you want better support for patented codecs, maybe using gstreamer plugins from universe would work, the 0.9/0.10 series is starting to look good, I'm sure it could be made a Breezy+1 goal to integrate it at least. However the idealist in me favors pushing open and patent-free formats..

As for MythTV, I have seen a debian based distro that was tailored for that need, it was featured in an episode of systm, you might want to look it up. This is a fairly special use case, but never the less interesting.

jerome bettis
August 21st, 2005, 03:03 AM
i already tried openbox, it's worse.

erikpiper
August 21st, 2005, 03:12 AM
i already tried openbox, it's worse.
Sound. Hving to disable the sound server for games, then enabling it again. Blegh.

Repositories. Too many problems.

Smeg doesn't come with the system!


Other than that, it's great!

23meg
August 21st, 2005, 03:38 AM
cpu peaks often caused by the included versions of gam_server , firefox and nautilus. they're my #1 nightmare in daily use.

Paul Bramscher
August 21st, 2005, 04:03 AM
I've seen this already mentioned:
* Not very attactive default fonts.

But also:
* Choppy mpg playback. Kaffeine seems to be buggy (actually crashing), noatun is jerky. I understand some of the codecs cannot be included for licensing issues, but I had better video playback luck on my old SuSE 8.2 distro. Ubuntu could have everything "good to go" with regard to video, but just not include the codecs. Seems that more work could be done there.
* Some bugginess with the initial login screen, though it may be a setting in my xorg. Seems sized for 1024x768, but I'm only at 800x600. The screen scrolls when it shouldn't scroll and flips around a bit. Might just be my fault, but it should work without going into configs and debugging things manually.
* I liked the boot-up dialog of SuSE. Neat background, colored "OK's" inside a box, etc. The Ubuntu/Debian method looks low-level. Very functional, but not really "pretty".
* Would be nice to have a command-line "switchdesk" command, to switch the default desktop. Although I guess this is easy enough to do at the login dialog screen (picking the session type).

Things that made me want to go with it:
* Free updates, user community, cool philosophy. And I get the feeling that Red Hat is using Fedora as a public beta testbed, and was disappointed that the Germans sold SuSE to an American company. So I was distro hunting at precisely the time that Ubuntu came around.

arnieboy
August 21st, 2005, 04:13 AM
* Free updates, user community, cool philosophy.
The only part of the Ubuntu philosophy that I don't like is the unwillingness to make updated debs and putting them in the official repositories after an official release. The backports repos have resulted but the obvious lack of speed in updating that has seriously turned me off.

poofyhairguy
August 21st, 2005, 08:02 AM
The only part of the Ubuntu philosophy that I don't like is the unwillingness to make updated debs and putting them in the official repositories after an official release. The backports repos have resulted but the obvious lack of speed in updating that has seriously turned me off.

You sound like perfect candiate for Breezy. Stable enough!

ilbahr
August 21st, 2005, 09:05 AM
First I think ubuntu is a great distro. I treid few and settled on Ubuntu and unless the updagrade process from Horay to Breezy is not buggy (as promised by ubuntu that updating is hastle free) i do not think i will ever swithch.

I only have one take on Ubuntu. You are putting to much effort to attract window users that you are forgetting the essence of linux which is knowledge and learning. I do not know why for example in the menus you do not put the name of whatever bit of software i am using instead of "file manager" why not put "nautilus and the file manager icon" This will teach us that this is the bit of software that do the file management. So if we think it is bugy its the one to be removed and another candidate to be installed.

It took me a while to know that gksudo is the command i need to run a gtk sudo window from command line. Or that gnome-theme-manager is the one i need to change the theme. Why not be more transparent those strange names did not scare me when i was a zombie window user and made my first switch to linux. And for sure i do not want to be a zombie user in ubuntu too.

The beauty of linux is that you can run gnome with enlightenment as a window manager and rox-filer for file management. Depending on my hardware i have the freedom of choice. Fast operating system with little bit of art IceWm with nautilus. This is not a choice in window.

To have this freedom I need to learn to understand so please do not treat us as zombies not after we have awakened.

Cheers
ilbahr

Knome_fan
August 21st, 2005, 09:14 AM
You are putting to much effort to attract window users that you are forgetting the essence of linux which is knowledge and learning.
This is the essance of linux? Where did you get this from?
I always thought it simply was a free OS, silly me...

Buffalo Soldier
August 21st, 2005, 09:38 AM
This is the essance of linux? Where did you get this from?
I always thought it simply was a free OS, silly me...I agree with ilbahr. GNU/Linux is NOT about:
becoming a Windows clone
attracting people who are interested looking for a Windows clone
attracting people who are not interested in free/open source, standard and format.


It's not stated directly, but I believe it is implied. GNU/Linux is more than just free (no cost) OS.

http://www.linux.org/lessons/beginner/l1/lesson1b.html

If someone where to ask me to sum up what is all this freedom about GNU/Linux is for in two words. I would definitely choose knowledge and learning. The freedom to know what is "under the hood", to tinker with it and spread it.

poofyhairguy
August 21st, 2005, 09:40 AM
First I think ubuntu is a great distro. I treid few and settled on Ubuntu and unless the updagrade process from Horay to Breezy is not buggy (as promised by ubuntu that updating is hastle free) i do not think i will ever swithch.

I only have one take on Ubuntu. You are putting to much effort to attract window users that you are forgetting the essence of linux which is knowledge and learning. I do not know why for example in the menus you do not put the name of whatever bit of software i am using instead of "file manager" why not put "nautilus and the file manager icon" This will teach us that this is the bit of software that do the file management. So if we think it is bugy its the one to be removed and another candidate to be installed.

It took me a while to know that gksudo is the command i need to run a gtk sudo window from command line. Or that gnome-theme-manager is the one i need to change the theme. Why not be more transparent those strange names did not scare me when i was a zombie window user and made my first switch to linux. And for sure i do not want to be a zombie user in ubuntu too.

The beauty of linux is that you can run gnome with enlightenment as a window manager and rox-filer for file management. Depending on my hardware i have the freedom of choice. Fast operating system with little bit of art IceWm with nautilus. This is not a choice in window.

To have this freedom I need to learn to understand so please do not treat us as zombies not after we have awakened.


I promise its not the intention to simplify names just to please Windows users. Quite honestly most users don't care what the programs are named (as long as they work) so Ubuntu is made for that common user (who may or may not have ever touched Windows). If you ever wonder what a program's real name is, ask us here and you will get and answer I bet.

Knome_fan
August 21st, 2005, 09:53 AM
I agree with ilbahr. GNU/Linux is NOT about:
becoming a Windows clone
attracting people who are interested looking for a Windows clone
attracting people who are not interested in free/open source, standard and format.


Huh? Where did I talk about it becoming a Windows clone? Making something easy to use doesn't mean making it a Windows clone, on the contrary, Windows can in many instances serve as a reminder of how not to do it if you want it to be userfriendly.
Further, there's no such thing as GNU/Linux with a single purpose, it's many different things to many different people.



It's not stated directly, but I believe it is implied. GNU/Linux is more than just free (no cost) OS.

Again, huh?
Where did I imply that I meant free as in beer, not as in freedom?



If someone where to ask me to sum up what is all this freedom about GNU/Linux is for in two words. I would definitely choose knowledge and learning. The freedom to know what is "under the hood", to tinker with it and spread it.
Well, that's fine if that's the important part for you, but how does this imply that a project like Gnome should make things complicated on purpose to force users to learn things they shouldn't have to know about if they don't want to?
After all, that's what ilbahr's suggestions boil down to.

ilbahr
August 21st, 2005, 10:42 AM
First its a pleasure to get such quick responce to my opinion. Second Knome_fan just putting the name of the software in the menu is more of acknowledgement then complication. It just guide me to what to search for if I want to learn more. Also having more detailed documentation will help more. Do not you want more people to learn. If we do then rest assure that our input will be more positive and effective.

I also think poofyhairguy that I will be filling the forms with too many unanswered threads if i asked for each and every program name. Its much more easier just for them to be visible.

Regardless of how you view my opinion i have to thank everyone who worked on this great distro.

Cheers
ilbahr

Knome_fan
August 21st, 2005, 11:52 AM
First, I don't have a problem with you wanting to also have the name of the software in the menu. I think the topic on how to best organize the menu has been debated to death already, so let's not get into it.

What I had a problem with is you proclaiming what the essence of linux is. As I said, I strongly believe there is no such thing, though I will gladly agree that gaining knowledge and learning is one of the things that attract me to linux.

Finally, there are other ways to learn the names of the applications you are using:
1. If the app has a menu, then help -> about should help you out.
2. Use smeg to see what commands are actually executed
3. If you want to know something about a application that neither shows up in smeg, nor has a menu, like the gnome-theme-manager, here's a workaround for you.
Simply drag the app from the menu to your panel. Now you'll be able to right click, choose properties and you'll be able to see the actual command run.

macgyver2
August 21st, 2005, 03:18 PM
What do I like least about Ubuntu? The default colors. :) I prefer blues and purples.

ilbahr
August 21st, 2005, 11:46 PM
First, I don't have a problem with you wanting to also have the name of the software in the menu. I think the topic on how to best organize the menu has been debated to death already, so let's not get into it.

What I had a problem with is you proclaiming what the essence of linux is. As I said, I strongly believe there is no such thing, though I will gladly agree that gaining knowledge and learning is one of the things that attract me to linux.

Finally, there are other ways to learn the names of the applications you are using:
1. If the app has a menu, then help -> about should help you out.
2. Use smeg to see what commands are actually executed
3. If you want to know something about a application that neither shows up in smeg, nor has a menu, like the gnome-theme-manager, here's a workaround for you.
Simply drag the app from the menu to your panel. Now you'll be able to right click, choose properties and you'll be able to see the actual command run.
Thanks for the tip though i already discovered it when i was searching for the name of the application for the theme switcher. Now i want to know what is the equivalent command to the "run command' in the gnome-panel>applications.

Even this trick did not work.

By the way i need it for i run openbox. I do not like the fact that i have to open a terminal each time i run a program. In enlightenment i used E-Exec to run applications from one launcher.

Thanx in adavance.


Cheers
ilbahr

tdell
August 22nd, 2005, 04:51 PM
Painfully slow networking, so much so that I have switched to SUSE.
Most of my questions are in the Unanswered Threads.

Tom

poofyhairguy
August 22nd, 2005, 07:38 PM
Painfully slow networking, so much so that I have switched to SUSE.
Most of my questions are in the Unanswered Threads.

Tom

At least you didn't give up on Linux. Ubuntu is not for everyone.

arnieboy
August 22nd, 2005, 07:43 PM
At least you didn't give up on Linux. Ubuntu is not for everyone.
I am getting a T shirt printed this weekend. "They wrote Ubuntu for me" will scream across the front. On the back will run "Do I care if it bummed u? NO"

arnieboy
August 22nd, 2005, 07:44 PM
How does that go with your marketing strategy poofy?

wrtrdood
August 22nd, 2005, 07:54 PM
It's a Gnome thing --- the file requester: where the hell is the path keyin field :-x

There's a lot of tools I like that use this thing. I HATE being stuck with "point and click". Sheesh~

Ubuntu has so far proven to be the best distro I've used to date.

poofyhairguy
August 22nd, 2005, 08:04 PM
How does that go with your marketing strategy poofy?

Perfectly. The biggest point I want to get across with my PR ideas is to use moderate language when dealing with potential users of Ubuntu.

I want people to say "Ubuntu might work for you" rather than "Ubuntu will work for you." I want people to say "well, Ubuntu isn't for everybody" rather then them say "I guess you are not good enough for Ubuntu." I want people to say when they hear that a person has left Ubuntu for another distro "I'm glad you found what you wanted in the Linux world, do you have any suggestions before you go?" rather than say "why do you hate Ubuntu?"

I want happy, moderate language. Its the best hope if the Ubuntu community does not want to be labled zealots (more than we already are).

Stormy Eyes
August 22nd, 2005, 08:52 PM
Perfectly. The biggest point I want to get across with my PR ideas is to use moderate language when dealing with potential users of Ubuntu.

I tell people who ask me about Ubuntu because they know I'm into Linux, "You might find it useful if you don't mind reading instructions and doing a bit of tinkering. You can try it using a bootable CD without trashing your Windows setup, if you like." I see no reason to sell Linux in general as a Windows replacement, nor do I see any reason to humor those who mistakenly believe that Linux is a Windows-like system and end up disappointed when they can't play their MP3s or their MMORPGs.

If you want Windows, you know where to find it. (http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/I/If-you-want-X--you-know-where-to-find-it-.html)

phen
August 22nd, 2005, 09:02 PM
ubuntu specific: the browser and email icon after a fresh install.

other: problems with codecs and media players. i am still not able to play all media files...

cheers!

nrdlnd
August 22nd, 2005, 10:00 PM
I have used Ubuntu since about 4 months on my laptop, a new HP one. Everything worked out of the box automagically even wireless (of course I had to do some mods). One thing didn't work and it was the cardreader. I have now installed Hoary on my desktop since about a week and I want to sum up the problems I've had:

- numlockx not installed by default

- I have an ASUS A7N8X-E Deluxe mainboard and the Sarge installer doesn't recognize the Nvidia/Realtek LAN-controller (Mepis and Knoppix do). I had to install an old card I had.

- single click not default (I'm used to KDE).

- First I did not like that Gnome was default as I'm used to KDE since a couple of years. I did convert though as the Gnome theme is so simple and beautiful and the colours are very light and soft. I use the "Grand Canyon" theme and it's really a work of art! What I DON'T like is the way Gnome is configured. I can't understand why this sleek display manager has TWO panels. The one on the top is useless in my opinion and I've had a lot of work to move the necessary icons and functions to the lower panel. It wasn't easy until I understood how to unlock the icons. It had been better if the default had been one panel and those who want two can install the top panel themselves (a poll maybe?).

- There are some KDE-programs that I don't want to be without so I installed Kubuntu also. The problem is that not all programs show up in the Gnome menus. One example is K3B that I think most users think is the best program for burning. I'm not sure of this but I think that Ubuntu didn't come with a burning program!?

- I do defintiely not like that there is no easy way to mount other partitions. It could at least be a function as in Mepis where you have icons on the desktop and you only have to right click on them to mount them. I'm not sure that they should be mounted automatically but a nice function could be that you could choose that by clicking on the icon as an alternative when you configure your desktop.

- I want to say something about Kubuntu and KDE. I like the functionality better in KDE and for me it's easier to adjust. What I don't like with KDE is the strong colours they use in most themes. They should take a look at Gnome and learn of it's design! Gnome design and KDE functionality could be a very nice combination!

Well this is what came on my mind just now. Otherwise Ubuntu is a great distro!

Jackfrost
August 23rd, 2005, 05:00 AM
I have used Ubuntu since about 4 months on my laptop, a new HP one. Everything worked out of the box automagically even wireless (of course I had to do some mods). One thing didn't work and it was the cardreader. I have now installed Hoary on my desktop since about a week and I want to sum up the problems I've had:

- numlockx not installed by default

- I have an ASUS A7N8X-E Deluxe mainboard and the Sarge installer doesn't recognize the Nvidia/Realtek LAN-controller (Mepis and Knoppix do). I had to install an old card I had.

- single click not default (I'm used to KDE).

- First I did not like that Gnome was default as I'm used to KDE since a couple of years. I did convert though as the Gnome theme is so simple and beautiful and the colours are very light and soft. I use the "Grand Canyon" theme and it's really a work of art! What I DON'T like is the way Gnome is configured. I can't understand why this sleek display manager has TWO panels. The one on the top is useless in my opinion and I've had a lot of work to move the necessary icons and functions to the lower panel. It wasn't easy until I understood how to unlock the icons. It had been better if the default had been one panel and those who want two can install the top panel themselves (a poll maybe?).

- There are some KDE-programs that I don't want to be without so I installed Kubuntu also. The problem is that not all programs show up in the Gnome menus. One example is K3B that I think most users think is the best program for burning. I'm not sure of this but I think that Ubuntu didn't come with a burning program!?

- I do defintiely not like that there is no easy way to mount other partitions. It could at least be a function as in Mepis where you have icons on the desktop and you only have to right click on them to mount them. I'm not sure that they should be mounted automatically but a nice function could be that you could choose that by clicking on the icon as an alternative when you configure your desktop.

- I want to say something about Kubuntu and KDE. I like the functionality better in KDE and for me it's easier to adjust. What I don't like with KDE is the strong colours they use in most themes. They should take a look at Gnome and learn of it's design! Gnome design and KDE functionality could be a very nice combination!

Well this is what came on my mind just now. Otherwise Ubuntu is a great distro!
I guess the one thing that really bugs me about ubuntu is that its a linux os. But if i wanted an os that just worked with games that just played and sound and movies that i could just click and watch and listen. I would use Windows. and everyone here knows thats the truth because thats wat we are all doing here. trying to get ubuntu to work.

darkmatter
August 23rd, 2005, 05:10 AM
and everyone here knows thats the truth because thats wat we are all doing here.

Assumptions, assumptions... :razz:

That's not what all of us do. I made the decided long ago to only purchase GOOD games (the kind that can run natively on GNU/Linux). Which brings me to the one thing that irks me: Ubuntu's somewhat shaky OpenGL support.

arnieboy
August 23rd, 2005, 05:11 AM
I guess the one thing that really bugs me about ubuntu is that its a linux os.
and the fact that bugs me the most is that we have made it a point to condone jackasses like u.

aysiu
August 23rd, 2005, 05:14 AM
But if i wanted an os that just worked with games that just played and sound and movies that i could just click and watch and listen. I would use Windows. Really? Because when I tried to reinstall Windows, and I didn't have my InterVideo WinDVD recovery disk, I couldn't play any DVDs at all. In Ubuntu, I would just sudo apt-get install libdvdcss2. I didn't know what to do in Windows...

nrdlnd
August 23rd, 2005, 01:59 PM
[QUOTE]I guess the one thing that really bugs me about ubuntu is that its a linux os. But if i wanted an os that just worked with games that just played and sound and movies that i could just click and watch and listen. I would use Windows. and everyone here knows thats the truth because thats wat we are all doing here. trying to get ubuntu to work.

I don't know why you are quoting me. I'm using Ubuntu because it's Linux and open souce. This tread is about what we like least about Ubuntu to help the developers. I am hoping that by reporting problems I can be to some help to make a better Ubuntu. The trouble I've had is small compared with if I had used Windows. I found help with my problems by searching on the net and on this forum by going to the arhives.

Ubuntu is by far the best OS I've ever used. In another tread that I started yesterday I had questions about it's developing model. I was met with respect and I got my questions answered. I can see now that the developing model that Ubuntu has is very beneficial both for Ubuntu and the community and that this model actually speeds up the development of Linux and Open Source!

Stormy Eyes
August 23rd, 2005, 02:11 PM
and the fact that bugs me the most is that we have made it a point to condone jackasses like u.

Speak for yourself. I'm not condoning him; I'm just trying to refrain from feeding the troll.

WishMaster
August 23rd, 2005, 02:58 PM
I *really* don't like the sound in Ubuntu.
One program uses ALSA, another one ESD,...
RealPlayer doesn't work without disableing soundserver, Skype doesn't know what a microphone is (but GnomeMeeting recognizes it)
*pfff*

AlexanRO
August 23rd, 2005, 03:58 PM
I was disappointed by the intial lack of a menu editor for gnome 2.10--it made me miss 2.8, fast!

Smeg is a good stopgap; I'm hoping gnome 2.12 will completely rectify this idiotic omission.
all of the above and as a sidebar the way she handles my ATAPI Iomega Zip but I still love her.

AlexanRO

KingBahamut
August 23rd, 2005, 04:01 PM
Honestly, the only Ubuntu complaint I have is......whiney end users that want to complain excessively about what doesnt work.

=)

Stormy Eyes
August 23rd, 2005, 04:01 PM
I *really* don't like the sound in Ubuntu.
One program uses ALSA, another one ESD,...
RealPlayer doesn't work without disableing soundserver, Skype doesn't know what a microphone is (but GnomeMeeting recognizes it)
*pfff*

Yes, the sound in Hoary is really boneheaded if you've got a sound card that doesn't suck like Britney Spears getting a record contract.

h4rdc0d3
August 23rd, 2005, 04:26 PM
Not that it doesn't do its job perfectly fine for me...

I think a key point to making Ubuntu the ideal distro of choice for newbs would be to make the installer graphical (i.e. Red Hat's anaconda).

Debian can hide behind the fact that it supports so many architectures as reason for not implementing it; not so with Ubuntu's x86/powerpc/amd64.

Everything else that I can think of is kicka$$!

Stormy Eyes
August 23rd, 2005, 04:54 PM
I think a key point to making Ubuntu the ideal distro of choice for newbs would be to make the installer graphical (i.e. Red Hat's anaconda).

Why? Why make the installer graphical? I've installed dozens of distros, not to mention Gentoo and FreeBSD, and I've dealt with both graphical and text install programs. The text installer is not harder to use than the graphical installer. Why make the installer more complicated (from a programming standpoint) by introducing a GUI when the text interface works?

arnieboy
August 23rd, 2005, 04:57 PM
Why? Why make the installer graphical? I've installed dozens of distros, not to mention Gentoo and FreeBSD, and I've dealt with both graphical and text install programs. The text installer is not harder to use than the graphical installer. Why make the installer more complicated (from a programming standpoint) by introducing a GUI when the text interface works?
FreeBSD is not a linux distro. its not linux in the first place.

Stormy Eyes
August 23rd, 2005, 05:01 PM
FreeBSD is not a linux distro. its not linux in the first place.

Don't be so damned picky. FreeBSD has a text installer, which is more relevant to the point I was trying to make than whether or not it's a Linux.

arnieboy
August 23rd, 2005, 05:05 PM
Don't be so damned picky. FreeBSD has a text installer, which is more relevant to the point I was trying to make than whether or not it's a Linux.
Its good to be picky with people who pick on others :)

Stormy Eyes
August 23rd, 2005, 05:09 PM
Its good to be picky with people who pick on others :)

If you think I pick on others now, you should see how I treat certain people (*cough* socialists *cough*) outside this forum. I'm behaving myself, man.

GeneralZod
August 23rd, 2005, 05:09 PM
Why? Why make the installer graphical? I've installed dozens of distros, not to mention Gentoo and FreeBSD, and I've dealt with both graphical and text install programs. The text installer is not harder to use than the graphical installer. Why make the installer more complicated (from a programming standpoint) by introducing a GUI when the text interface works?

Harder? Possibly not. More frightening for a novice? Most definitely. My mum was even scared of the text lines going up the screen during the boot-up sequence, which is why I'd like to see Splashy/ USplash eventually installed as standard.

arnieboy
August 23rd, 2005, 05:13 PM
Not that it doesn't do its job perfectly fine for me...

I think a key point to making Ubuntu the ideal distro of choice for newbs would be to make the installer graphical (i.e. Red Hat's anaconda).
I think one of the low priority mission objectives of Breezy is a graphical installer. I am not sure though.

Stormy Eyes
August 23rd, 2005, 05:13 PM
More frightening for a novice? Most definitely. My mum was even scared of the text lines going up the screen during the boot-up sequence...

I don't understand what exactly is frightening about the text interface of the Ubuntu installer. It's laid out step by step, from picking keyboard layout, to partitioning, to the "Please remove the CD and press enter to reboot" prompt. As for the boot-up text: when my wife first saw that text after rebooting her machine, all she said is "What's this? I've never seen this when booting Windows." All I had to say was, "That's just diagnostic messages. Linux is testing everything to make sure it works. You don't have to pay attention unless something goes wrong."

GeneralZod
August 23rd, 2005, 05:22 PM
I don't understand what exactly is frightening about the text interface of the Ubuntu installer.

It just is. It's fairly hard to put my feet in the shoes of a complete novice again, but my best guess is that every time a novice has seen a computer, it's had a graphical interface that looks slick and has shiny buttons and completely and totally conceals everything that's happening under the hood. Strip off this veneer and show plain text with no pictures and some people will suddenly freeze like a deer in the headlights - even if the resultant text-based UI exposes no more additional options or "under-the-hood"-type functionality, some people will perceive that this UI is far, far more complex than it really is, literally because there are suddenly no comforting graphics or buttons.

Plus (I can't remember whether this was the case with Ubuntu), users are also used to interacting with the computer via the mouse, so if they cannot click on the textual representation of checkboxes with a pointer, this intensifies their disorientation. If we then add that the means to navigate this text-based UI is, in absence of a mouse-pointer, not immediately obvious, then this just makes things worse.


As for the boot-up text: when my wife first saw that text after rebooting her machine, all she said is "What's this? I've never seen this when booting Windows." All I had to say was, "That's just diagnostic messages. Linux is testing everything to make sure it works. You don't have to pay attention unless something goes wrong."

I tried a similar thing with my Mum, but she still looked absolutely terrified - she associates graphics and pictures with "Everything is Working" and plain white text with "Oh no! Something's gone wrong!". And of course, your wife had the luxury of you being there to reassure her and explain what is happening - if my mum had seen the normal boot-up process without me to guide her, she probably would have pulled the plug out of the wall! :)

h4rdc0d3
August 23rd, 2005, 05:28 PM
Why? Why make the installer graphical?

I think I was clear when I said that it's for the newbs. The main purpose would be to collect all those people out there sitting on the fence (over an agreeably stupid point) and bring them into our fold.

"Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg?" - Jack Nicholson / Colonel Jessup in A Few Good Men


I don't understand what exactly is frightening about the text interface of the Ubuntu installer.

I agree with you... it shouldn't be frightening and I don't fully understand it either, but the fact is that there are other people out there scared s***less of it (text-based installers, command line, etc). All I'm trying to say is that a distribution who claims to be the "Linux for Human Beings" (which includes gurus and common folk and everybody inbetween) really should make at least a low-priority attempt to make it less of a hurdle for those common folk.

EDIT: And that's what they're doing, and I'm happy with it.

poofyhairguy
August 23rd, 2005, 06:38 PM
I tell people who ask me about Ubuntu because they know I'm into Linux, "You might find it useful if you don't mind reading instructions and doing a bit of tinkering. You can try it using a bootable CD without trashing your Windows setup, if you like." I see no reason to sell Linux in general as a Windows replacement, nor do I see any reason to humor those who mistakenly believe that Linux is a Windows-like system and end up disappointed when they can't play their MP3s or their MMORPGs.


Sounds good. All I want is moderate language.

bored2k
August 23rd, 2005, 06:50 PM
I think one of the low priority mission objectives of Breezy is a graphical installer. I am not sure though.
Its in the works. If you check the Pre-release tour thread you'll see images of it.

h4rdc0d3
August 23rd, 2005, 06:54 PM
Its in the works. If you check the Pre-release tour thread you'll see images of it.

Great! I knew you guys were on top of it.

bored2k
August 23rd, 2005, 07:04 PM
Great! I knew you guys were on top of it.

Installation

Breezy will feature some new refinements in the installation process.

* A new Graphical installer will be in place to bring this distribution a more cutting edge, and to accomodate those who have a penchant for user-friendliness.
* A live/installer CD will allow the user to "try out" ubuntu from windows and have the option to install it from the same cd, rather than downloading and burning an installation ISO.
* A graphical partitioning tool will be included, that may help the common user overcome , arguably one of the most difficult initial barriers to the linux world. A user will be able to resize an existing partition to easily make room for their ubuntu.
* In a more streamlined installation process, a user can now answer all questions necessary at the beginning so they are not required to sit there through the install
It's not 100% it will make it though.

thechitowncubs
August 24th, 2005, 01:06 AM
Hard to share files amongst other Ubuntu machines. Lack of integration between Ubuntu computers.

nrdlnd
August 24th, 2005, 03:10 PM
I think the textbased installer is very good but it's not intuitive for someone who hasn't worked with it before. The argument that I think holds for a graphical installer is that it for some people is much easier to use the mouse. I think this is reason enough to have a graphical installer. It's very unwise to stop people even before they have come into the house - actually rather unfriendly! The important thing is that the installer isn't less functional because of the "lull-lull" - the GUI matters less.

Edit: An alternative to a graphical installer that I like even better is an even better textbased installer ie with even better help functions. My experience with graphical installers is that the function is no better but it's easier to explain each step for an unexperienced user. I have also seen examples of graphical installers that are no more intuitive than text based. Initially I had a lot of problems with QT-Parted and I've used other textbased partitioningtools that was easier to understand and use.

ilbahr
August 29th, 2005, 10:33 AM
Again, what i least like about ubuntu is what i least like about linux in general. Week hardware support for some of the most common hardware (sound cards, graphic cards, modems, printers, scanners, wireless cards). Though i must admit this problems are common with all linux distribution and it can not be solved entirely by ubuntu but the question was what you least like about ubuntu. The major take on ubuntu though is week week week documentation.

I miss running under window without worrying about my notebook shutting down because of overheating. I miss the music files i used to listen too I miss the ease by which i scanned documents and edited pdf files. Right now I can not scan files, send faxes, listen to some music files or even print files on ubuntu.

I though admit that using linux taught me about my hardware but i hate the fact that i have to waste time to make simple functions work like the stupid grammer check of double works. Which for me is a simple program to be added to any editor like abiword or openoffice. I miss automatic checking for capitlized words after a full stop.

Finally i have to admit that under linux i had more ease of mind from virus and hackers attacks. I guess linux is not a target yet. I am glad that there are no spywares on my pc (which was the main reason i made the switch). I am glad that performance do not detriorat as i use ubuntu (which i experienced in window i guess from the way some keys are never deleted from the registery and for other reasons). I prefer the stability of tex even openoffice over the hazardous msword. Finally i appreciate the speed and the reduced overhead in file size and hardware load.

I guess to sum up i have to run both :)

By the way i hate being labelled newbie. I have never claimed i was expert in software or hardware never said i am interested of being one. I am just a plain regular user no more no less.

manicka
August 29th, 2005, 11:21 AM
If you think I pick on others now, you should see how I treat certain people (*cough* socialists *cough*) outside this forum.
I don't know, you do a pretty good job of that inside the forum as well

blastus
August 29th, 2005, 11:35 AM
Things that are least liked in Ubuntu:

- Can only use 885Mb of RAM!
- DVD playback is choppy...and eventually crashes with an out-of-memory error

poofyhairguy
August 29th, 2005, 11:40 AM
- DVD playback is choppy...and eventually crashes with an out-of-memory error

turn on dma

Knome_fan
August 29th, 2005, 11:41 AM
Things that are least liked in Ubuntu:

- Can only use 885Mb of RAM!
- DVD playback is choppy...and eventually crashes with an out-of-memory error

1. Install the appropiate kernel (i686 for example, if that's the right one for your processor)
2. Enbale DMA:
http://ubuntuguide.org/#speedupcddvdrom

moopere
August 29th, 2005, 12:12 PM
Again, what i least like about ubuntu is what i least like about linux in general. Week hardware support for some of the most common hardware (sound cards, graphic cards, modems, printers, scanners, wireless cards).

Weak hardware support? You've got to be joking right?

All the most common hardware I've tried, and, in fact, almost all of the uncommon hardware I've tried has worked a treat in Linux (and certainly Ubuntu).

I admit I've only tried a couple of wireless cards, but the rest, scanners, modems, graphics, sound, etc etc etc has all worked.

At this point in time my view is that modern Linux distro have superior hardware support to Windows XP, and WinXP has pretty good hardware support.


The major take on ubuntu though is week week week documentation.

Yep, pretty hard to argue this. Most distros are the same, very weak, and the Linux Documentation Project, whilst a fantastic resource, is usually so behind the times as to be almost worthless for less experienced users. I'm guessing that the reason for this is that noone much likes writing documentation for free :)


I miss running under window without worrying about my notebook shutting down because of overheating. I miss the music files i used to listen too I miss the ease by which i scanned documents and edited pdf files. Right now I can not scan files, send faxes, listen to some music files or even print files on ubuntu.

Your notebook overheats? Whats this? ACPI not working? Does it make any difference to disable ACPI and run APM instead? What sort of notebook do you have?

I can listen to all my music files, scan doco's and edit PDF's, watch movies, etc etc all at the same time on hardware so old that Windows XP won't even install hehe. I realise that this is not an XP versus Ubuntu thread by the way, but its a point of comparison.

Cheers,
Craig

duffman25
August 29th, 2005, 12:34 PM
The only part of the Ubuntu philosophy that I don't like is the unwillingness to make updated debs and putting them in the official repositories after an official release. The backports repos have resulted but the obvious lack of speed in updating that has seriously turned me off.

I agree. I would love if ubuntu provided sw updates (and not only security fixes) on the current stable release. The problem with backports, it's the fact that you have to ask for sw & the lack of speed as you've said. It would be great it as soon as gaim new version hit breezy it would be backported to hoary. I think that since the backports proyect has moved to the official ubuntu archive machines, in breezy this is going to change... but we'll have to wait to see.

Other things I would love to see:
- more gui tools (BUT tools which let the user edit manually everything they need)
- more bling & eye candy ;) but reading the breeezygoals & see this is coming.

What I like of ubuntu:

- predictable & frecuent releases
- lastest gnome (I prefer it over kde)
- 1 versatile cd (idealy I would like an all-in-one-cd: live system, rescue system & installer)
- it's community

papangul
August 29th, 2005, 12:41 PM
There is no "Control Panel" for human beings in Ubuntu!

weekend warrior
August 29th, 2005, 12:50 PM
apt-get gnome-control-center :)

http://search.belnet.be/packages/ubuntu/ubuntu/pool/main/c/control-center/

papangul
August 29th, 2005, 12:54 PM
I want a "Ubuntu Control Centre", gnome conrol centre will not do!

weekend warrior
August 29th, 2005, 02:36 PM
Then either start writing it ;-) or switch to a KDE distro (http://shots.osdir.com/slideshows/slideshow.php?release=306&slide=75) that has one already (http://shots.osdir.com/slideshows/slideshow.php?release=381&slide=64).

Linux offers freedom of choice. Use it! ;-)

papangul
August 29th, 2005, 04:02 PM
Lots of thanks for the links, but I can't switch to another distro right now, I like Ubuntu very much. ](*,) One thing that annoys me about Kubuntu is the distortion of the beautiful word Ubuntu, they could have named it ubuntu-K instead.
Wish I was smart enough to write the Ubuntu Control Panel.

Knome_fan
August 29th, 2005, 04:18 PM
But you are aware that Kubuntu is an actual word, aren't you?

papangul
August 29th, 2005, 04:21 PM
No. thanks for the enlightenment, what does it mean?

Knome_fan
August 29th, 2005, 04:30 PM
It means "towards humanity" in Bemba.
http://www.kubuntu.org/faq.php

Wolki
August 29th, 2005, 05:17 PM
There is no "Control Panel" for human beings in Ubuntu!

Hm... what's wrong with having the config options inside a menu? Sure, nested menus are by itself not a good thing, but a control panel either adds another window you have to close again; or you'd have to have all the config options in one window, which would make it hard to use the existing configuration apps or easily add third-party/unofficial tools (like the mouse theme selector in gnome 2.10)

Wolki
August 29th, 2005, 05:18 PM
I agree. I would love if ubuntu provided sw updates (and not only security fixes) on the current stable release. The problem with backports, it's the fact that you have to ask for sw & the lack of speed as you've said. It would be great it as soon as gaim new version hit breezy it would be backported to hoary. I think that since the backports proyect has moved to the official ubuntu archive machines, in breezy this is going to change... but we'll have to wait to see.

Providing an official update requires further adaption and testing, and that means work that doesn't go towards the next stable release. Official updates would likely be even slower than backports since the requirements are higher - development releases may (or are even expected to) break, stable releases have to be stable. There are people running Ubuntu who have important work to do, sometimes with no other operating system, and they can't afford having an update breaking an app. If you're running a stable release, you can always update without fear, let's not change that. The Ubuntu development cycle is quite fast already, with a new release twice each year, I doubt it's reasonably possible to make it even faster.

And once you get used to it, waiting a little is not that hard. And for the small number of apps where you really need an update, there's always backports or compiling it yourself.


- 1 versatile cd (idealy I would like an all-in-one-cd: live system, rescue system & installer)

livecd & installer combined is planned, maybe in breezy+1. I guess the space could be restricted for additional rescue apps, but there's a lot of rescueing you can do with a normal live cd already. I'm sure that if there's a useful rescue app the ubuntu devs will consider including it.

papangul
August 29th, 2005, 06:03 PM
Hm... what's wrong with having the config options inside a menu? Sure, nested menus are by itself not a good thing, but a control panel either adds another window you have to close again; or you'd have to have all the config options in one window, which would make it hard to use the existing configuration apps or easily add third-party/unofficial tools (like the mouse theme selector in gnome 2.10)
A few things are in Applications->Systems Tools. If everything was under the "System" menu I myself wouldn't have noticed that there is no control panel.
Many newbies to linux and also a few seasoned users love mandriva because of it's control centre.
About third party applications, is it a big deal to package them in such a way that on installation they are automatically included in the control panel ?

Wolki
August 29th, 2005, 06:23 PM
A few things are in Applications->Systems Tools. If everything was under the "System" menu I myself wouldn't have noticed that there is no control panel.

I'm quite sure there is a reason for each one's placement... and that makes me still wonder whether it wouldn't be better to just move these to the Settings menu instead of creating a Control Panel.


Many newbies to linux and also a few seasoned users love mandriva because of it's control centre.

Mandriva is a fine distribution, not only because of it's control center. But it wouldn't be worse if it was in the menu (except that the mandrake menus are quite nested and as such worse than the shallow ubuntu ones). In fact, Mandrake has all the tools also in the menu, and when i was using it i started the apps most of the time from there. Why wait for the Control Center to open, if i can start xyzdrake directly?

MaBu
August 29th, 2005, 07:55 PM
I hate that Ubuntu doesn't have mp3 support in libtunepimp library for musicbrainz. I don't like that is Ksysguard bigger than my screen. I don't like that I can't use Alt+F2 gg:somethink in KDE because Konqueror goes crazy.
Amarok 1.3 is out And It isn't in repositories. In Fedora it is.

On the other hand it is a nice distro with some things working better than in others.

papangul
August 30th, 2005, 04:30 AM
I'm quite sure there is a reason for each one's placement... and that makes me still wonder whether it wouldn't be better to just move these to the Settings menu instead of creating a Control Panel.



Mandriva is a fine distribution, not only because of it's control center. But it wouldn't be worse if it was in the menu (except that the mandrake menus are quite nested and as such worse than the shallow ubuntu ones). In fact, Mandrake has all the tools also in the menu, and when i was using it i started the apps most of the time from there. Why wait for the Control Center to open, if i can start xyzdrake directly?
You are right, I used a shell replacement program called Geoshell in Windows and the feature i liked most was that there was a menu item called "Control panel" which included all control panel items as submenus, so that the control panel items could be accessed directly without opening the control panel.

I have an idea for Ubuntu though. A virtual desktop can be transformed into the "Ubuntu Control Center". It can be accessed instantly like a virtual desktop, no need to "open" it. Do you like the idea?

Parkaboy
August 31st, 2005, 03:02 AM
Poor multimedia support

John.Michael.Kane
August 31st, 2005, 03:06 AM
I like the lack of help for OS based issues but they have great helpwith hardware issues

ubuntme
August 31st, 2005, 03:58 AM
Well, I'm new to ubuntu, my last sytem was gentoo, which is a fantastic dist but I always had help for gentoo I though I would be better off with an easier dist to run on my own,

Here are some of the points which i disliked about installing ubuntu
- The instalation put my usb drive into fstab which was good, but didn't put my fat32 and ntfs drives in!

- it took me a long time to figure out that I had a lot of extra repositories to add, so it took me a long time to add some decent basic programs, e.g. xine and mplayer.

- it installed open office, which is kinda cool, but I had to go find all the multi media codecs separately.

- totem is horrible.

- the default options in fstab were pretty terrible, regarding the cdrom and usb fat32 drive.

I think ubuntu is a good dist, I haven't decided yet if my next system will be ubuntu or gentoo, probably will be gentoo as the gentoo forums are sdecond to none. but ubuntu has a wayto go...

aysiu
August 31st, 2005, 04:03 AM
I think ubuntu is a good dist, I haven't decided yet if my next system will be ubuntu or gentoo, probably will be gentoo as the gentoo forums are sdecond to none. but ubuntu has a wayto go... The Ubuntu Forums aren't too shabby, either, I think.

John.Michael.Kane
August 31st, 2005, 04:05 AM
yeha right

macgyver2
August 31st, 2005, 04:43 AM
I think ubuntu is a good dist, I haven't decided yet if my next system will be ubuntu or gentoo, probably will be gentoo as the gentoo forums are sdecond to none. but ubuntu has a wayto go...
In terms of sheer knowledge contained in them, I have to agree that, well, the gentoo forums have an advantage over the ubuntu forums...but I think the main factor there is that they've been around longer. These forums are catching up.

In terms of friendliness, these forums are far better than the gentoo forums. However, maybe that should serve as a little warning...when I first joined the gentoo forums (ten days after they came online) they were a very friendly place and they stayed that way for 7 or 8 months...then they slowly started to go downhill.

Anyway...IMHO you shouldn't really base the decision to use ubuntu or gentoo on the forums. There are more important factors to consider than that!

ubuntme
August 31st, 2005, 05:45 AM
In terms of sheer knowledge contained in them, I have to agree that, well, the gentoo forums have an advantage over the ubuntu forums...but I think the main factor there is that they've been around longer. These forums are catching up.

Thats true, there are a lot more experienced users using the gentoo forums.

Though my searchings of the ubuntu forums I found some questionable advice. And I guess thats one of the things i dislike least about ubuntu. But as you say this should improved with time.

poofyhairguy
August 31st, 2005, 06:03 AM
Thats true, there are a lot more experienced users using the gentoo forums.

Though my searchings of the ubuntu forums I found some questionable advice. And I guess thats one of the things i dislike least about ubuntu. But as you say this should improved with time.

This is the fact of life. Gentoo is harder to install and use, so it brings in a nerdier crowd. Often here we are little more than the blind leading the blind, but it can't be avoided. At least people are willing to help somehow, what little they can.

Often to help people here, I will search the Gentoo forums and tell them the solution I find in easy language. I will always say the Gentoo Forum is the best Linux resource out there, its wiki is great too. Much of it applies to Ubuntu, so I use it.

arnieboy
August 31st, 2005, 06:17 AM
Thats true, there are a lot more experienced users using the gentoo forums.

Though my searchings of the ubuntu forums I found some questionable advice. And I guess thats one of the things i dislike least about ubuntu. But as you say this should improved with time.
The bulk of the ubuntu community is made up of people whose knowledge of linux and consequently that of ubuntu as a distro is extremely limited. But ubuntuforums has set its own standards in terms of prompt help and good moderation. Barring a couple, our moderators are top class. People who get help from these forums feel its an obligation for them to give back and in the process they try to help others, and also make mistakes and often inadvertently misguide newbs.
the more experienced among us consciously try to correct these mistakes in the support forums so that newbs dont get frustrated. the guys who dont google and expect some magic wand to troubleshoot their problems everytime are also the ones who complain first.

h4rdc0d3
September 8th, 2005, 03:24 AM
I don't claim to be some guru or anything but I am used to a "harder, more difficult" linux distro (Debian) than Ubuntu. I realized when I started using Ubuntu that I had to fight the urge to pick it apart for everything it isn't. For instance, I'd have the little devil dude on my shoulder whispering, "Ubuntu's repos aren't updated nearly as often as Debian Sid's!" But then I'd hear a little angel dude retort "You want Sid repos, go use Sid, retard!" In summary, I learned that each distro has its pros and cons. Ubuntu's advertised pros are that it's aimed at anyone and everyone dependent on neither the language they use nor 1337-ness level. The geekier among us may not appreciate that quality so much and point it out as a con. I say that they need to listen to their own little angel dude and decide for themselves.

WirelessMike
September 8th, 2005, 03:46 AM
I'm a moderately-experienced Linux user (NOT a guru) and I don't mind having a nice, stable OS. The thing is-- I like the applications and OS to work together to accomplish specific tasks. I don't have the OS because I want to hone my skills as a developer, I use this because I know it can do what I need it to do better than Windows and more efficiently than some other distros I've experimented with (I can appreciate dependability). In other words-- I don't think "ease of use" is a downside. Not to mention that when I need support, it's remarkably easy to find. I really don't like the easiest distros (I'd reserve that honor for commercial distros that integrate commercial applications like Linspire, Xandros and Mandriva), and I prefer deb repositories and apt-get to rpm repos and yum.

However, I can appreciate those who like a more challenging distro. I imagine it's akin to my preference for driving manual transmissions over automatic-- It may be a little more difficult, but to me, it's just more fun.

That being said...

What I like least about Ubuntu would have to be the default theme. To me, working on all that brown is like drinking warm milk.

:)

racecat
September 8th, 2005, 03:51 AM
I had to think long and hard about this one. The only thing I don't like is probably a KDE problem. Things crash a lot with Kubuntu. I've kind of overcome this by loading KDE Desktop on a Ubuntu load and running Xfce environment. Haven't had any crashes on any K-apps since.

Bill

froggie
September 10th, 2005, 05:17 AM
I come to praise Caesar, not to bury him. It's actually refreshing to see the question being asked. Of course, I haven't been using it very long.

The brown is kinda weird, but the fonts are marvelous. They're part of the reason that I got interested in this distro in the first place. I installed it on a test machine, and I really liked the way it looks.

Keep up the good work.

sinbad
September 10th, 2005, 11:01 PM
Let me count the ways......

Kernel upgrades.
What a stupid way to bork a box. New kernels should be installed not upgraded. If the new one doesn't work you have something to fall back on until you solve the bugs or get all of those forgotten modules up to date.

There are sooo many things that I dislike, but the kernel takes the cake.

manicka
September 10th, 2005, 11:15 PM
Let me count the ways......

Kernel upgrades.
What a stupid way to bork a box. New kernels should be installed not upgraded. If the new one doesn't work you have something to fall back on until you solve the bugs or get all of those forgotten modules up to date.

There are sooo many things that I dislike, but the kernel takes the cake.
I've never had a problem with a kernel upgrade

Stormy Eyes
September 11th, 2005, 12:35 AM
Let me count the ways......

Kernel upgrades.
What a stupid way to bork a box. New kernels should be installed not upgraded. If the new one doesn't work you have something to fall back on until you solve the bugs or get all of those forgotten modules up to date.

There are sooo many things that I dislike, but the kernel takes the cake.

I agree with you, but I've never -- not in the last six years -- borked a box by overwriting a good kernel with a new kernel. Perhaps it is because I am paranoid and thus take a measure of care when meddling with the kernel, but I've never had a problem with a kernel upgrade that I could not solve by selecting the old kernel from the boot menu.

kraeloc
September 11th, 2005, 05:43 AM
I hate how awkward it is to set up IPtables and such. I hate to say it, but my router box is running XP pro right now, because I never managed to configure Ubuntu for it. I'm hoping 5.10 will make it easier, maybe even give it a GUI...

matthew
September 11th, 2005, 06:19 AM
I hate how awkward it is to set up IPtables and such. I hate to say it, but my router box is running XP pro right now, because I never managed to configure Ubuntu for it. I'm hoping 5.10 will make it easier, maybe even give it a GUI...
Actually, there are a few options to choose from that will help you configure your ip tables quite easily. The most commonly used around here is Firestarter http://ubuntuguide.org/#firestarter although I prefer lokkit which runs from the command line but has a gui called gnome-lokkit. All these are available via synaptic.

sinbad
September 11th, 2005, 09:27 AM
I agree with you, but I've never -- not in the last six years -- borked a box by overwriting a good kernel with a new kernel. Perhaps it is because I am paranoid and thus take a measure of care when meddling with the kernel, but I've never had a problem with a kernel upgrade that I could not solve by selecting the old kernel from the boot menu.

Ubuntu is so user friendly that it makes all kind of default choices for you.
i.e. What do we need that old kernel laying around for? Too many confusing possibilities if there is more than one kernel to choose from, especially since they are all named the same. It reminds me of the old Red Hat standard of backporting everything so that you never really know what version you are really running unless you read the change log.

My first kernel upgrade (mid August) I lost ipw2200 functionality, thus no network for days until I could get a hard line to the router. My cd-rw no longer writes from user accounts, still haven't solved that one (no it isn't permissions). Sound sucks now too......

After years of RedHat (since 5.1) and FCx I find that a lot of things are very frustrating in Ubuntu. There are a lot of things that I like, but.....

One of the reason that I even tried Ubuntu is that one my fellow LUGers loves it for the multi-media. Truth be told, I have multi-media working way better in FC3 on a similar sony laptop to this one that runs hoary . Odd since FC is supposed to be so lame when it comes to multi-media.

FC3: Printing is better, scanner works, sound works (except cd player, xmms and xine cover the job fine). All of the sonypi stuff works on that box too. Grub is way more user friendly. Support is more accessable. Developers seem to be more available and interested in problems. ATI works out of the box.

Ubuntu seems to run faster, and I like that a lot. But it seems to come with more headaches. I would like to get my issues resolved so I don't have to nuke this install and start over with something new.

benplaut
September 11th, 2005, 09:57 AM
default theme

package freeze (i'll risk a bit of stability for a Fedora style package release schedule)

atheros hell (OK, not their fault, but still)

Stormy Eyes
September 11th, 2005, 03:06 PM
Ubuntu is so user friendly that it makes all kind of default choices for you.
i.e. What do we need that old kernel laying around for?

I have not noticed this. I usually compile my own kernels, and manually rename and move them to /boot rather than trust "make install". I also edit the grub/lilo menu by hand. Of course, I'm so old-school I still think that Lemmy (from Motorhead) is God, so don't take my word as gospel.

escuchamezz
September 11th, 2005, 04:28 PM
1) Wireless support is *****
2) no decent games work
3) general linux development is very very slow
4) only in the next version gnome finally has a menu editor
5) Kubuntu is a piece of crap (way too many bugs) - kde is put on like slapping lipstick on a *****. If I wanted to use KDE I would use MEPIS.
6) no default mp3 support
7) totem is ugly, uglier than cher without plastic surgery
8 ) can only download i386 iso rather than i686, that's idiotic.
9) firefox is far slower than in windows
10) no dvd playback
11) ntfs partitions don't automount unlike other distros
12) can't write to ntfs
13) can't access some websites from any of the linux browsers
14) gimp has a crap user interface
15) gaim has no support for webcam capabilities
16) ATI drivers suck
17) no winrar, photoshop, microsoft office,dvd shrink,getright e.t.c for linux
18 ) digital output doesn't work on any soundcards
19) who ever wrote nautalis deserves to be in prison
20) the backports are crap

amongs other things... [-X

davidgypsy
September 11th, 2005, 09:02 PM
- The lack of decent CD burning software. Nautilis is somewhat featureless as a CD burning app. Gnome Baker refuses to work after about the third or fourth time I use it. Now I use K3b under Gnome.

- The Human theme.

- There still isn't a little metallic Ubuntu sticker for the front of my computer! ;-)

- Once set up there is too little to do... everything just works... now I install other distros into another partition just for lack of stuff to tweak in Ubuntu. I see how fast they break, and then try again with another one. :smile:

poofyhairguy
September 11th, 2005, 10:56 PM
Let me group these.

These are problems Linux in general have because of a small desktop marketshare (not Ubuntu's fault):



1) Wireless support is *****
2) no decent games work
13) can't access some websites from any of the linux browsers
16) ATI drivers suck
17) no winrar, photoshop, microsoft office,dvd shrink,getright e.t.c for linux

These are problems with programs that are included with Ubuntu, but are not developed or maintained by Ubuntu:


9) firefox is far slower than in windows
14) gimp has a crap user interface
15) gaim has no support for webcam capabilities
12) can't write to ntfs (nfts support is a kernel problem)

These are problems that are caused by legal situations (yet again no fault of Ubuntu):


6) no default mp3 support
10) no dvd playback

These are problems with side projects within Ubuntu:


5) Kubuntu is a piece of crap (way too many bugs) - kde is put on like slapping lipstick on a *****. If I wanted to use KDE I would use MEPIS.

20) the backports are crap

These are problems with software Ubuntu helps develop:


4) only in the next version gnome finally has a menu editor (at least next version has it)
7) totem is ugly, uglier than cher without plastic surgery (fixed in Breezy for me)
19) who ever wrote nautalis deserves to be in prison

These are the true problems that are 100% Ubuntu's fault (yet all are not bad)


8 ) can only download i386 iso rather than i686, that's idiotic. (but there is a 686 kernel in the repo)
11) ntfs partitions don't automount unlike other distros (partially fixed in Breezy)
18 ) digital output doesn't work on any soundcards

These is a problem that amazes me seeing as how XP came out in 2001:

3) general linux development is very very slow

So....most is not Ubuntu's fault. Before anyone jumps on me and says "but for regular users who don't know what doesn't work is Ubuntu's fault," I must say "yes I know, thats why I'm glad Ubuntu does not force itself on users."

arnieboy
September 11th, 2005, 11:15 PM
only one comment.. ntfs partitions do automount on hoary and thats the first ubuntu distro I have used. (did not try warty)

Stormy Eyes
September 11th, 2005, 11:54 PM
Poofyhairguy, the fact that digital sound output doesn't work isn't Ubuntu's problem; it's ALSA's problem.

Knome_fan
September 12th, 2005, 11:31 AM
The community.

KiwiNZ
September 12th, 2005, 11:40 AM
The community.

The Community is its biggest asset , and by far the best I have encountered

poofyhairguy
September 12th, 2005, 11:45 AM
Poofyhairguy, the fact that digital sound output doesn't work isn't Ubuntu's problem; it's ALSA's problem.

There we go, I didn't even know that.

primeirocrime
September 12th, 2005, 11:46 AM
this one is easy:

not enough people using it. [ ubuntu and every other foss based OS's]

Knome_fan
September 12th, 2005, 11:55 AM
The Community is its biggest asset
This might not come as a surprise, but I really don't think it is. Don't get me wrong, there are of course a lot of people doing great things in the community, for example really taking time to help other, etc., but there are also a lot of things about the community that I rather percive as a liability to Ubuntu.



and by far the best I have encountered
Well, let's just say we seem to have different experiences then, but reading this forum I think it becomes very obvious that at least when it comes to technial expertise there are communities out there that are far supperior to the Ubuntu community. (And yes, I know that statement makes me look like an arrogant prick, though keep in mind that I didn't talk about my technical expertise, or rather lack thereof)

zenwhen
September 12th, 2005, 12:02 PM
This might not come as a surprise, but I really don't think it is. Don't get me wrong, there are of course a lot of people doing great things in the community, for example really taking time to help other, etc., but there are also a lot of things about the community that I rather percive as a liability to Ubuntu.


Well, let's just say we seem to have different experiences then, but reading this forum I think it becomes very obvious that at least when it comes to technial expertise there are communities out there that are far supperior to the Ubuntu community. (And yes, I know that statement makes me look like an arrogant prick, though keep in mind that I didn't talk about my technical expertise, or rather lack thereof)

Your other flamewar got closed, and you are starting a new one here. Real classy.

Knome_fan
September 12th, 2005, 12:05 PM
Your other flamewar got closed, and you are starting a new one here. Real classy.
1. I'm not starting a flamewar
2. I didn't start a flamewar in the thread you are referring to
3. Personal attacks, real classy.

zenwhen
September 12th, 2005, 12:16 PM
1. I'm not starting a flamewar
2. I didn't start a flamewar in the thread you are referring to
3. Personal attacks, real classy.

You sit back and take potshots at this community for lack of technical knowledge while admittedly lacking it yourself. Should we pay Linux gurus to post on a vBulletin forum? The real work gets done on the mailing lists. This is a more casual environment, where everyone can participate. What have we done that has riled you up so much? Sure, you didn't start that other flamewar, but you were right there in it. The heat there ran out, and here you are trying to get some more going.

Luckily for you, I know what you're doing, and am giving you exactly what you want. I have paid thorough attention to you. You can go away now.

Knome_fan
September 12th, 2005, 12:21 PM
You sit back and take potshots at this community for lack of technical knowledge while admittedly lacking it yourself.
Ehm, I'm sorry that I disagreed with Kiwinz, who is of the oppinion that this is the best community. I disagreed with him and thought it was polite to give my reasons why.



Luckily for you, I know what you're doing, and am giving you exactly what you want. I have paid thorough attention to you. You can go away now.
Jesus, grow up please.

Stormy Eyes
September 12th, 2005, 02:14 PM
There we go, I didn't even know that.

No problem. I'd blame the OSS drivers as well, but I can't think of anybody who uses them. After all, ALSA's in the kernel, and make menuconfig listed OSS as "deprecated" back when I was still using Gentoo and compiling kernels.

xyloc
September 12th, 2005, 02:18 PM
Well, the sound problems for starters. I still don't have any sound while playing video files. I've been trying some workarounds all over the net, but to no avail so far.
Totem sucks big time.
When something is included in the "supported" section and even installed by default, it *should* work out of the box. I expect every program that has this Ubuntu support icon in front of it to be tested thoroughly before releasing it.
The administration tools included are not as straightforward as say SuSE, but hey it's a free distro...

In spite of the thread, I would also like to add what I like most about Ubuntu.
It's fast, blazing fast, even on a relatively old machine.
In comparison, SuSE 9.3 runs on approx. 30% of the Ubuntu Speed.
Top that, Novell...

Brunellus
September 12th, 2005, 02:20 PM
Well, the sound problems for starters. I still don't have any sound while playing video files. I've been trying some workarounds all over the net, but to no avail so far.
Totem sucks big time.
When something is included in the "supported" section and even installed by default, it *should* work out of the box. I expect every program that has this Ubuntu support icon in front of it to be tested thoroughly before releasing it.
The administration tools included are not as straightforward as say SuSE, but hey it's a free distro...

In spite of the thread, I would also like to add what I like most about Ubuntu.
It's fast, blazing fast, even on a relatively old machine.
In comparison, SuSE 9.3 runs on approx. 30% of the Ubuntu Speed.
Top that, Novell...
it does work out of the box...with supported codecs. Once again, the devs can't officially distribute codecs they may not have the rights to do.

Of course, neither do the devs forbid you from finding other soluitions to the codec problem...

Lovechild
September 12th, 2005, 02:25 PM
In comparison, SuSE 9.3 runs on approx. 30% of the Ubuntu Speed.


Now that is a blantant ricer lie if I ever saw one... Gentoo might be for you

Brunellus
September 12th, 2005, 02:28 PM
Now that is a blantant ricer lie if I ever saw one... Gentoo might be for you
Suse did seem sluggish when I ran suse 9.1; Ubuntu was much snappier on my equipment. Can i test this? Not really. I'm just happier overall with Ubuntu--it does what I want/need with fewer irritations.

agger
September 12th, 2005, 04:13 PM
Too many trolls in this forum. Apart from that, it rocks!

lao_V
September 12th, 2005, 04:23 PM
During the second stage of installation when it spurts out lots of "configuring package, setting up package.." was unnecessary I think. It could have been replaced with a progress bar.

Anyway, I think this is being addressed to in the next release. So all is good.

Brunellus
September 12th, 2005, 04:25 PM
During the second stage of installation when it spurts out lots of "configuring package, setting up package.." was unnecessary I think. It could have been replaced with a progress bar.

Anyway, I think this is being addressed to in the next release. So all is good.
what, synaptic?

because I like seeing that output when I apt-get.

lao_V
September 12th, 2005, 04:28 PM
what, synaptic?

because I like seeing that output when I apt-get.

No, second stage of the actual Ubuntu system installation.

Thulemanden
September 12th, 2005, 04:34 PM
Ok for starters.

The various fonts are somewhat blurred. However I sympathize with using xorg over xfree, considered the incomprehensible shanges to the xfree license agreement.

Bandit
September 12th, 2005, 04:49 PM
I think Ubuntu is by most the best distro out. I know I spend most my time at the SuSE forums, but many of us there actualy use Uby..
I like Ubuntu due to its standard file system layout. Many other distro's put all the software in the /opt directory.. Dont guess they ever figured out what OPTional ment..
Ok... The only things I dislike about Ubuntu is that they dont use my theme's :)
j/k.. Although I use my theme's... Seriously I just dont like the tanish/brown color theme.. Its just not pleasing to the eyes.
I can under stand that other colors have been used up. But I kinda like mine.
You can find more of mine over at gnome-look.org many of the mainstream themes I named Sigel. Of course eveyone there is just freaking crazy about clearlooks and I totaly hate that theme..
Guess I am the weird one :p
Cheers,
Joey

Deeze
September 12th, 2005, 05:06 PM
I also despise the default theme (happy to see I'm not alone), it's actually kind of depressing, lucky me that it's easily changed ;). The tagline "Linux for humans" somehow doesn't sit right with me. Dunno what it is, it's just.. weird. Like, what is Debian, Linux for Lemurs or something? I think "Linux for everyone" or something along that line is more fitting.. just me I guess. The fact that VBulletin is used for the forums instead of Invision Power Board bothers me, because multiquote rocks (and I miss it terribly here). Lastly, incompatability with official Debian repos is probably my biggest gripe.. not that I would have any solution whatsoever, but it's a bit annoying.

KiwiNZ
September 12th, 2005, 09:14 PM
Your other flamewar got closed, and you are starting a new one here. Real classy.

Please remember Knome_Fan is entitled to his opinion and fully entitled to express it . He disagreed with me and that is fine . He backed his opinion by his observation . I have absolutely no problem with that . In fact I will defend his right to disagree with me everytime.

I always take an opposing view to mine as a gift . Its a gift that someone takes the time to converse with me and cares enough to take the time to state their view. It is also an opportunity that I take to review my opinion . That is how we grow.

I do agree with Knome_Fan that we may well need some more Technical Mods and Ubuntu- Geek has already hinted at that .

I do however stand by my belief that this Community is one of the best I have come across .

Knome_ fan keeps us on our toes and will always speak up , I repect that and appreciate it .

Freddy
September 12th, 2005, 09:36 PM
The only part of the Ubuntu philosophy that I don't like is the unwillingness to make updated debs and putting them in the official repositories after an official release. The backports repos have resulted but the obvious lack of speed in updating that has seriously turned me off.
Agree 100 percent, Atleast I wan't some updated software, I had to compile amaroK 1.3 and much other software myself and If I was the type that like to hunt dependecies sometimes for hours, I would be on my previous Slackware. /// Freddan

zenwhen
September 12th, 2005, 10:09 PM
Please remember Knome_Fan is entitled to his opinion and fully entitled to express it . He disagreed with me and that is fine . He backed his opinion by his observation . I have absolutely no problem with that . In fact I will defend his right to disagree with me everytime.

I always take an opposing view to mine as a gift . Its a gift that someone takes the time to converse with me and cares enough to take the time to state their view. It is also an opportunity that I take to review my opinion . That is how we grow.

I do agree with Knome_Fan that we may well need some more Technical Mods and Ubuntu- Geek has already hinted at that .

I do however stand by my belief that this Community is one of the best I have come across .

Knome_ fan keeps us on our toes and will always speak up , I repect that and appreciate it .

As nice as all of that sounds, sometimes a jerk is just a jerk.

dtfinch
September 13th, 2005, 04:52 AM
I'd like to run modern apps on a stable base, without leaving the standard repositories. Few people want to run only apps that are as old as their operating system. A new app doesn't necessarily need to force an upgrade, but it should at least be available if the user wants to search for and install it. Otherwise, I have to uninstall the repository packages and install them manually, which sometimes forces the removal of metapackages which are often important for upgrading to the next Ubuntu release.

The hdparm defaults are a little sad. Hard drives and DVD drives need at least DMA enabled by default. PIO is so old it's no longer the stable choice. Your system must be over 10 years old to not support DMA, which the installer ought to be able to detect. A modern system should get modern defaults.

The default setup is a little difficult to work with as well. Everyone goes to ubuntuguide.org to complete their setup, or they just get frustrated. A lot of the fixes should be in Ubuntu by default, at least those that won't cause licensing issues.

Ubuntu (probably more gnome's fault) seems to be tailored for resolutions near 1600x1200. Everything looks gigantic by default if someone happens to use 1024x768. You can change font sizes, but I don't see an easy way to change the default icon sizes and the thick padding in most gtk2 themes.

The default font selection is a little on the frugal side. The default serif and sans-serif fonts in Firefox are eyesores next to arial and times new roman. The default serif font in Firefox is especially oversized, which messes up a lot of pages, like Slashdot.

The "Debian" menu should be installed by default, but with a different name. Just call it "More" or something. Right now, users very often need to use the command line to find and run GUI applications they just installed from the Ubuntu repositories. This is unacceptable for new users.

If Firefox 1.5 won't make it into Breezy, maybe another Gecko based browser should be the default. Maybe even the bulky Mozilla Suite, the latest stable of which doesn't seem to have the severe performance bugs that Firefox 1.0.x does on Linux.

The brown theme. I sink into depression whenever I see it, and the bundled alternatives aren't very clean. Red Hat's BlueCurve is a very good theme, and I have a nice blue version of the default Ubuntu wallpaper as well. Blue is easy to stare at for long periods of time. On my last install, which I blew away to install Breezy, I got the official BlueCurve installed, minus the Red Hat logo icons which I swapped out for the defaults.

XDevHald
September 13th, 2005, 04:58 AM
Mine is just wireless issues, connection problems knock every few hours but it's ok, I deal with it.

poofyhairguy
September 13th, 2005, 05:00 AM
I'd like to run modern apps on a stable base, without leaving the standard repositories. Few people want to run only apps that are as old as their operating system. A new app doesn't necessarily need to force an upgrade, but it should at least be available if the user wants to search for and install it.

Thats why backports became official. Things won't be there the day they are released (its takes a little time to package and app), but most times the backports crew aren't too far behind on major releases.




The hdparm defaults are a little sad. Hard drives and DVD drives need at least DMA enabled by default. PIO is so old it's no longer the stable choice. Your system must be over 10 years old to not support DMA, which the installer ought to be able to detect. A modern system should get modern defaults.


Actually my system (a P4 from two years ago) is modern, but my motherboard won't let me use DMA. If that was the default, I would be in trouble. (well...not now that I know that)

jbrader
September 13th, 2005, 06:01 AM
Slow boot time. My laptop dual boots xp and Hoary and windows boots much faster. My wife's PII desktop runs Suse 8.2 and it even boots faster. When I'm booting Ubuntu it always hangs for a minute or so while it looks for the wireless network and if I'm booting away from home it takes even longer. But Ubuntu is still my all-time favorite OS and I've used quite a few.

arnieboy
September 13th, 2005, 06:06 AM
Thats why backports became official. Things won't be there the day they are released (its takes a little time to package and app), but most times the backports crew aren't too far behind on major releases.

Thats a false claim. The backports project is dead as a matter of fact. It died more than a month back. I am not sure if anybody is interested in reviving it. "The merging of backports into ubuntu mainsteam" was a hogwash.

Knome_fan
September 13th, 2005, 06:47 AM
As nice as all of that sounds, sometimes a jerk is just a jerk.
Quod erat demonstrandum

DirtDawg
September 13th, 2005, 07:41 AM
In Warty, I was able to customize the application menus (or whatever you call the menus on the top of the screen) by clicking the RMB (or F12 on my mac).
Since Hoary, I cannot.
I hate... H-A-T-E that.

manicka
September 13th, 2005, 08:03 AM
In Warty, I was able to customize the application menus (or whatever you call the menus on the top of the screen) by clicking the RMB (or F12 on my mac).
Since Hoary, I cannot.
I hate... H-A-T-E that.
Smeg will save you

http://www.realistanew.com/projects/smeg/

manicka
September 13th, 2005, 08:05 AM
Thats a false claim. The backports project is dead as a matter of fact. It died more than a month back. I am not sure if anybody is interested in reviving it. "The merging of backports into ubuntu mainsteam" was a hogwash.
That's an interesting claim. Do you know this for sure?

I know backports dropped off when jdong became interested in opensuse but is it really dead in the water?
jdong has been posting there and building packages today

poofyhairguy
September 13th, 2005, 08:09 AM
Thats a false claim. The backports project is dead as a matter of fact. It died more than a month back. I am not sure if anybody is interested in reviving it. "The merging of backports into ubuntu mainsteam" was a hogwash.

And that is the reason why Jdong said recently that Breezy will ship with a line in the sources.list for Ubuntu backports by default?

http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=345061&postcount=22

He has never lied to me before.....and he is the backports guy. If he is correct then backports must be something, they would not put a line for nothing. If you have evidence please show me, as I don't like to be kept in the dark.

I will admit that no new Hoary backports have come; Warty backports died about the same time before Hoary's release. That does not mean backports is dead.

Knome_fan
September 13th, 2005, 08:14 AM
About backports being dead:
I think it is probably very simple, as backports takes its updates from the development branch of ubuntu and this very branch is now in feature freeze, there simply aren't to many things to backport I'd suspect.

kassetra
September 13th, 2005, 08:29 AM
About backports being dead:
I think it is probably very simple, as backports takes its updates from the development branch of ubuntu and this very branch is now in feature freeze, there simply aren't to many things to backport I'd suspect.

I know from past examples... the backports kind of slow down / stop about a month before a new release. It gives the devs some breathing room to finish up their work and lets the backports people catch a rest, etc. :) The inclusion of the backports as an official source for apt will be a positive thing - so well worth the wait. :)

darkmatter
September 13th, 2005, 09:22 AM
The GUI is my major bane. Though it is not a problem exclusive to Ubuntu.

I just can't stand that every developer is stuck with the same tired old concepts... :roll:

GeneralZod
September 13th, 2005, 10:28 AM
The GUI is my major bane. Though it is not a problem exclusive to Ubuntu.

I just can't stand that every developer is stuck with the same tired old concepts... :roll:

They're not mind-readers - if you have new and exciting directions to take the GUI in that are not currently being worked on, please share! F/OSS is all about sharing code, standards, and best of all, fresh ideas amongst the community - even if you're not a programmer! :)

Stormy Eyes
September 13th, 2005, 01:38 PM
The GUI is my major bane. Though it is not a problem exclusive to Ubuntu.

I just can't stand that every developer is stuck with the same tired old concepts... :roll:

No offense intended, but this is what annoys me about a lot of Linux users. They say "this isn't good enough", but don't offer a better idea. If you have a better idea, let's hear it. Better yet, let's see a mockup or a demo. Just whinging isn't going to help.

Brunellus
September 13th, 2005, 02:28 PM
The GUI is my major bane. Though it is not a problem exclusive to Ubuntu.

I just can't stand that every developer is stuck with the same tired old concepts... :roll:
Don't like your GUI? Change it. There's KDE and XFCE, if you're conventionally-minded. If not, there are the various *boxes (Fluxbox, Openbox, Blackbox....take your pick). There's also Enlightenment DR17.

Still not satisfied? There's SymphonyOS, as well.

One thing you won't lack in the GNU world is a choice of working environments. Of course, Windows has so many to choose from, one hardly knows what to do.....

darkmatter
September 13th, 2005, 03:41 PM
No offense intended, but this is what annoys me about a lot of Linux users. They say "this isn't good enough", but don't offer a better idea. If you have a better idea, let's hear it. Better yet, let's see a mockup or a demo. Just whinging isn't going to help.

Hate to burst your bubble Stormy, but I make plenty of suggestions (filing bugs, posting ideas in developmental forums, etc.), and am currently working out a proposal for GUI enhancements/usability enhancements (final will be pdf) complete with all the pretty little mockups you could ever want. ;-) Right down to the fine points. (part of a developmental framework for a desktop project I wan't to find interested developers for)

No offence. :)


Don't like your GUI? Change it. There's KDE and XFCE, if you're conventionally-minded. If not, there are the various *boxes (Fluxbox, Openbox, Blackbox....take your pick). There's also Enlightenment DR17.

Still not satisfied? There's SymphonyOS, as well.

One thing you won't lack in the GNU world is a choice of working environments. Of course, Windows has so many to choose from, one hardly knows what to do.....

Been there, done that. Even though that fixes the general environment (for the most part), it really doesn't begin to approach the application level at nearly the level it should.

Perhaps one of the biggest issues (though not the only) is the matter of 'sane' defaults.

Ubuntu has done a LOT in this area (and I applaud the effort), but there is always room for improvement.

Stormy Eyes
September 13th, 2005, 03:44 PM
Hate to burst your bubble Stormy, but I make plenty of suggestions (filing bugs, posting ideas in developmental forums, etc.), and am currently working out a proposal for GUI enhancements/usability enhancements (final will be pdf) complete with all the pretty little mockups you could ever want. ;-) Right down to the fine points. (part of a developmental framework for a desktop project I wan't to find interested developers for)

Hey, I'm glad to hear it. At least you're not just whinging; you're actually participating. Too many of the complainers don't bother to do more than complain. Will you post a link to the PDF when you're ready?

Dragonfly_X
September 13th, 2005, 03:45 PM
The fact that i can't install it on my Mac! :confused:

Brunellus
September 13th, 2005, 03:53 PM
The fact that i can't install it on my Mac! :confused:
ubuntu ppc?

Brunellus
September 13th, 2005, 03:54 PM
what do you mean by 'sane' defaults?

darkmatter
September 13th, 2005, 03:57 PM
Will you post a link to the PDF when you're ready?

Absolutely.

Once I get everything sorted and on disk. Seeing as how I have a background in art and literature before computers, I have an annoying habit of doing all the work on paper first.

I'm kind of backwards that way... ;-)

I'll start an open thread on these forums for discussion of ideas/standards (as well as plenty of user input) once my connection speeds up.

You wouldn't believe how much bandwidth my ftp client and download manager are stealing... ](*,)

matthew
September 13th, 2005, 04:04 PM
About backports being dead:
I think it is probably very simple, as backports takes its updates from the development branch of ubuntu and this very branch is now in feature freeze, there simply aren't to many things to backport I'd suspect.
I believe this is exactly the case.

darkmatter
September 13th, 2005, 04:05 PM
what do you mean by 'sane' defaults?

A minimal amount of post-install user configuration.

Stormy Eyes
September 13th, 2005, 04:11 PM
A minimal amount of post-install user configuration.

Define 'minimal'. When you're dealing with somebody like me, the default is never good enough. :)

darkmatter
September 13th, 2005, 04:36 PM
Define 'minimal'. When you're dealing with somebody like me, the default is never good enough. :)

Heh...It's never good enough for me either. :)

That comment was more general in nature. Seeing as how Ubuntu (and hopefully future distros) is consumer driven, and thus attracts a large number of 'average Joe' users, a well laid out default configuration is a must. I make a point of remembering the reactions of my 'converts' as well as those of many Linux users, and a surprisingly large number of them *don't* want to have to 'waste their time' ( :roll: ) configuring the desktop and application preferences. It seems that a minimal amount of user interaction is a highly prized 'usability' point.

You know what they say about first impressions... ;-)

GeneralZod
September 13th, 2005, 04:54 PM
Hate to burst your bubble Stormy, but I make plenty of suggestions (filing bugs, posting ideas in developmental forums, etc.), and am currently working out a proposal for GUI enhancements/usability enhancements (final will be pdf) complete with all the pretty little mockups you could ever want. ;-) Right down to the fine points. (part of a developmental framework for a desktop project I wan't to find interested developers for)


Bravo! I'd like to take a moment to re-emphasize this point: many people on the forums say they would like to give something back to Ubuntu, but don't know how to code. But bug reports and interesting ideas are every bit as useful. In the Halloween Documents, the Microsoft (and now Linux :)) engineer stated that the ability of open-source to harness the collective IQ's of thousands of people across the globe was phenomenal. The statement was made in reference to code, but it needn't be restricted to this: everyone, I believe, has at least one good idea in them (even if they do not recognise it as such) and quite often a community can take a fairly good idea and, by batting it amongst themselves, refine it into a very good idea indeed. So even if you're not a programmer, go ahead and share any promising ideas you think you have! A casual suggestion may become the next Tabbed Browsing or Expose!

Brunellus
September 13th, 2005, 05:53 PM
Bravo! I'd like to take a moment to re-emphasize this point: many people on the forums say they would like to give something back to Ubuntu, but don't know how to code. But bug reports and interesting ideas are every bit as useful. In the Halloween Documents, the Microsoft (and now Linux :)) engineer stated that the ability of open-source to harness the collective IQ's of thousands of people across the globe was phenomenal. The statement was made in reference to code, but it needn't be restricted to this: everyone, I believe, has at least one good idea in them (even if they do not recognise it as such) and quite often a community can take a fairly good idea and, by batting it amongst themselves, refine it into a very good idea indeed. So even if you're not a programmer, go ahead and share any promising ideas you think you have! A casual suggestion may become the next Tabbed Browsing or Expose!
...or more often, a well-roasted piece of flamebait.

sinbad782
September 14th, 2005, 05:32 PM
A few minor points:

Hardware:
- NVIDIA nforce2 audio was messed up to begin with in Hoary (have fixed this)
- No 'exactly right' keymapping in XKB for my UK Logitech Cordless Desktop MX keyboard and no way to monitor battery level (Come on Logitech!)
- Frequency scaling/Power Saving for nforce2 not on by default in Hoary. (Can use cpufreq-nforce2 kernel module)
- It was necessary to manually edit xorg.conf to make my MX700 mouse work properly.
- No easy native support for Broadcom chipset wireless cards including my Dell Truemobile 1300 card. (Come on Broadcom!)
- Gnome Power Manager not available (but will be in Breezy).

Desktop Defaults:

- It's BROWN!!!!
- I still can't get used to having the applications menu in the top left corner.
- Really needs a robust firefox plugin for Totem for playing back embedded media. (I am using the MediaPlayerConnectivity extension for firefox).
- XScreensaver should be set to cycle every minute by default (gives more variety).
- The gdm login text box appears too small sometimes.
- Why not have a small app under 'system tools' to enable backports/unofficial backports repositories?
- There's no easy/automated way of making QT apps appear consistent with GTK ones under GNOME.

Apps:
- GNOME really needs an app like Kile for preparing LaTeX documents.
- PhoneGaim would be nice for VoIP.
- Some more up to date packages for e16 in Universe would be nice.
- Easy installer for SCIM would be great too.
- No VPN client included by default.
- Cloning installs with Systemimager doesn't work without some tweaking (issue with udev/devfs and grub not being installed on new installs).

Apart from those, Ubuntu is still definitely the best linux distro I have used thus far.

PJS

Havoc
September 14th, 2005, 06:08 PM
Well, the most annoying things I can think of right now are:

- How the terminal handles folders with spaces.You have to put a stupid " \ " each time.Although I'm not sure whether this is an Ubuntu Problem...

- The illogical sorting of files which start with numbers.Let's say I've got 10 files, each one starts with a number.Ubuntu puts 10 first, then 1, 2, 3... up to 9.Damn it, can't Linux count? Again, I'm not sure this is a Ubuntu-only problem.

If there are solutions to these problems, could you point them out? :-?

Other than that, Ubuntu Rocks the Kazbah!

kanem
September 14th, 2005, 07:18 PM
Well, the most annoying things I can think of right now are:

- How the terminal handles folders with spaces.You have to put a stupid " \ " each time.Although I'm not sure whether this is an Ubuntu Problem...

- The illogical sorting of files which start with numbers.Let's say I've got 10 files, each one starts with a number.Ubuntu puts 10 first, then 1, 2, 3... up to 9.Damn it, can't Linux count? Again, I'm not sure this is a Ubuntu-only problem.

If there are solutions to these problems, could you point them out? :-?

Other than that, Ubuntu Rocks the Kazbah!
The "\" before spaces is a *nix thing. If I do the command:
cp file1.mp3 file2.mp3 folder/it copies both files to folder. The space between file1 and file2 indicate that there's more than one file. If I have a file called "file one.mp3" and do:
cp file one.mp3 folder/ it's going to try to copy a file called "file" and a file called "one.mp3" to the folder.

The 10 before 1 is also a *nix thing. I guess it could be different. I just do "01" instead of "1"

As for what I like least about Ubuntu, I think it's the new name (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=65536), though I guess I'll get used to it.

GeneralZod
September 14th, 2005, 07:44 PM
The 10 before 1 is also a *nix thing. I guess it could be different. I just do "01" instead of "1"


The 10 before 1 is an ASCII thing - the strings are just being sorted "ASCII-betically". I'd be very, very surprised if Windows and Mac didn't do exactly the same thing, although I can't verify that right now.

Edit: VVV

Cheers! :)

Brunellus
September 14th, 2005, 08:09 PM
The 10 before 1 is an ASCII thing - the strings are just being sorted "ASCII-betically". I'd be very, very surprised if Windows and Mac didn't do exactly the same thing, although I can't verify that right now.
they do.

Havoc
September 15th, 2005, 11:22 AM
Thanks! I'm rather happy now that I understood these "problems"!

My last problem is probably the lack of new packages in the repositories.That way, I have to compile some (Not really essential) programs from source, and then I have no way to track what I've installed with "make install".A great Idea for a program made in Python using GTK would be a "Package Maker", not fully automatic, but with an "easy" wizard-kinda interface...
If it is possible, I could sit down and learn debian packaging and Python, and make something like that...

EDIT!


The 10 before 1 is an ASCII thing - the strings are just being sorted "ASCII-betically". I'd be very, very surprised if Windows and Mac didn't do exactly the same thing, although I can't verify that right now.


they do.


No they don't! :-P

PROOF IMAGE! (http://img374.imageshack.us/my.php?image=helloooo0ni.png)

Knome_fan
September 15th, 2005, 11:32 AM
Thanks! I'm rather happy now that I understood these "problems"!

My last problem is probably the lack of new packages in the repositories.That way, I have to compile some (Not really essential) programs from source, and then I have no way to track what I've installed with "make install".A great Idea for a program made in Python using GTK would be a "Package Maker", not fully automatic, but with an "easy" wizard-kinda interface...
If it is possible, I could sit down and learn debian packaging and Python, and make something like that...

It's not graphical (there might be a frontend, but I'm not aware of it), but checkinstall is great when it comes to installing software from source.

You basically build the source like you would have done before, but then instead of make install use checkinstall to install the software.

Checkinstall now builds a .deb package and then installs it.
Very neat.

Havoc
September 15th, 2005, 11:46 AM
It's not graphical (there might be a frontend, but I'm not aware of it), but checkinstall is great when it comes to installing software from source.

You basically build the source like you would have done before, but then instead of make install use checkinstall to install the software.

Checkinstall now builds a .deb package and then installs it.
Very neat.
checkinstall creates packages all right, but most of the times they fail for me, and even if they don't, they are not the "quality" packages you get from the repositories.I'm talking about a utility that creates packages having the same level of quality and "testing" as their "manual" counterparts.

The thing I like about Ubuntu, and Linux in general is, no matter how many problems you have, there is always something for you, some logical solution.

Another grief I have, is that mabye Ubuntu could have a additional Applications CD (Something like the Ubuntuguide Add-on CD ), not required or anything, but regularly updated with apps, for us with no internet connection on our Ubuntu PCs.

GeneralZod
September 15th, 2005, 12:26 PM
Edit:

It looks like Windows Explorer sorts them numerically, but the Windows command-line does not.

UbuWu
September 15th, 2005, 01:48 PM
checkinstall creates packages all right, but most of the times they fail for me, and even if they don't, they are not the "quality" packages you get from the repositories.I'm talking about a utility that creates packages having the same level of quality and "testing" as their "manual" counterparts.


Have you tried [http://paco.sourceforge.net/ paco] ? It is something like source code package management. It has a GUI. Haven't tried it myself yet, but sounds promising...

Havoc
September 15th, 2005, 04:21 PM
Have you tried [http://paco.sourceforge.net/ paco] ? It is something like source code package management. It has a GUI. Haven't tried it myself yet, but sounds promising...
Wow.That's actually exactly what I was looking for (In the first place)!
Thank you very much!

daveisadork
September 15th, 2005, 05:05 PM
Ubuntu, as a distribution, I'm very happy with. I can't think of anything right off hand that I really dislike. My biggest complaint is probably with Xorg/Metacity/Gnome in that the GUI just generally feels sluggish, even though there's no real reason for it.

I, apparently, am one of the lucky ones in that all the hardware I need to work, works. My video card performs acceptably with 3D games (AIW Radeon 7500), I have yet to come across a video or audio file that I couldn't play, my Remote Wonder works without any configuration, I've discovered a workaround that lets me utilize my TV-out, sound in Hoary was originally broken for me but I was able to fix it and Breezy seems to work out-of-the-box. I haven't had any network issues that weren't the fault of my ISP... All in all I'm very happy with Ubuntu (and Debian GNU/Linux in general).

I've also been very happy, for the most part, with the community here. It's been very helpful and informative and has spawned some very useful resources and projects. The biggest thing that bothers me about the whole Ubuntu experience is those people in the community who have come to Ubuntu (or Linux in general) in search of a "free lunch," so to speak, and expect a more-or-less clone of Windows, only for free and without all those nasty viruses. The unwillingness by many in the community to learn and the frequent hostile outspokenness of ignorance are definitely what I like least about the Ubuntu experience. I believe this is mainly because Ubuntu is one of the few distros that appeals to new users in a big way, and while that in itself is a very good thing, I wish we could groom them to have better attitudes toward what exactly is going on here before they jump in and then a week later make a post about "Ubuntu needs to fix (insert features)..."

Count Chocula
October 2nd, 2005, 07:25 PM
I can't get Skype sound to work to save my life. I've tried looking many places for answers for about a month now. Nothing has worked. It worked fine on Mandrake before on the same hardware. I'm thinking about going back to Mandrake because I use Skype a lot, and my contacts use it, so I can't just change internet phone software.

tageiru
October 2nd, 2005, 07:32 PM
The restricted section.

poofyhairguy
October 2nd, 2005, 07:37 PM
The restricted section.


Explain.

tageiru
October 2nd, 2005, 07:42 PM
Explain.
It is the part of Ubuntu that i dislike most since it is incompatible with the Ubuntu philosophy.

I understand the reason for its existence, but Ubuntu has stated that it belives in free software. Restricted makes that statement teethless.

This is just a minor detail, so you can conclude that I generally have very high thoughts about Ubuntu.

poofyhairguy
October 2nd, 2005, 08:01 PM
It is the part of Ubuntu that i dislike most since it is incompatible with the Ubuntu philosophy.
I understand the reason for its existence, but Ubuntu has stated that it belives in free software. Restricted makes that statement teethless.



Actually, Mark has said more than once that one of the reasons Ubuntu exists is to be able to do things Debian wouldn't because of its strict policy such as include closed drivers. The trick is to make Ubuntu the best it can be out of the box in a libre manor, but then allow users to bend the OS any way they want easily.

Mark respects Debian for its stance, and says he would never wants that to change, then turns around and admits that he believes that no Linux can be an acceptable desktop OS without compromise.

I love my closed source Nvidia drivers....

urbandryad
October 2nd, 2005, 08:07 PM
needing the internet for synaptic and apt-get and all that. Having to spend as much time as I did figuring out how to install apps without said internet. ^^ Yeah, those are my only gripes. Otherwise, I adore ubuntu. :3 Very customizable.

poofyhairguy
October 2nd, 2005, 08:10 PM
needing the internet for synaptic and apt-get and all that. Having to spend as much time as I did figuring out how to install apps without said internet.

I have said it more than once, but it bears repeating:

Ubuntu is a great broadband OS.

tageiru
October 2nd, 2005, 08:13 PM
Actually, Mark has said more than once that one of the reasons Ubuntu exists is to be able to do things Debian wouldn't because of its strict policy such as include closed drivers. The trick is to make Ubuntu the best it can be out of the box in a libre manor, but then allow users to bend the OS any way they want easily.
Mark respects Debian for its stance, and says he would never wants that to change, then turns around and admits that he believes that no Linux can be an acceptable desktop OS without compromise.
I love my closed source Nvidia drivers....
Sure, the ubuntu site is very clear about why restricted exists. It also states that Ubuntu urges hardware manufacturers to release open drivers.
Ideally there would be no need for an restricted section and I do think that we as a community needs to be more vocal regarding free software issues.
I really dislike my closed ati driver.

poofyhairguy
October 2nd, 2005, 08:34 PM
Sure, the ubuntu site is very clear about why restricted exists. It also states that Ubuntu urges hardware manufacturers to release open drivers.
Ideally there would be no need for an restricted section and I do think that we as a community needs to be more vocal regarding free software issues.

I promise the community is vocal enough. The problem is that the Linux desktop community is very small, so our concerns do not matter to the hardware companies. If we go to them and say "Give us open drivers or else!" then that will be the quickest way to get nothing in the future.

We have no power, no leverage!

Maybe when Linux has (if it ever has) say 30% or more of the desktop market we can make demands. Till then I'm of the opinion that any Linux support is a good thing- closed or not.



I really dislike my closed ati driver.

Me too. Thats why my ATI card sits on my shelf and a new Nvidia card sits in my computer.

But I don't kid myself. I know that the only reason I have ANY decent support from Nvidia is because Linux is being used more and more by Hollywood and such to render CG scenes. The high end video card market is the reason my 6600 GT has drivers, and is the only reason ATI is improving their drivers.

For many hardware makers, the Linux desktop market is a margin of error. They can barely make decent Windows drivers (looking at you ATI and wireless card makers) so to ask them to also take the time to open their specs-it takes time to write that stuff up- or release open drivers is asking for too much right now.

Also just asking is not enough. You have to vote with your money. You like open specs? Then buy a ATI 9200 then mail ATI and tell them you bought it for that reason. I did that for my Nvidia card- I bought it because of the Linux support. Do these individual purchases matter? No, its a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of revenue for both, but if you get people in the habbit then the companies might change their ways!

Ubunted
October 2nd, 2005, 08:38 PM
Java, Java, Java.

Since it dissapeared from backports it is nothing but a source of pain for me. Granted this isn't really a fault of Ubuntu, but the compiled time I have spent searching for, testing and trying methods for installing a simple working JRE have been insane.

tudawggz
October 2nd, 2005, 08:50 PM
The default theme.
I must agree of all the things to hate that stupid brown background with no hope of getting anything else right away. at lease give us something different avalible at the get go. I just do not like brown.

tageiru
October 2nd, 2005, 09:01 PM
They can barely make decent Windows drivers (looking at you ATI and wireless card makers) so to ask them to also take the time to open their specs-it takes time to write that stuff up- or release open drivers is asking for too much right now.
This is an interesting point. Releasing open specifications can actually help them create better drivers. Allowing kernel developers to do the hard work can save them alot of money and increase the quality of the drivers.

There are loads of drivers in the kernel that the hardware manufacturer has never touched. As long as the specification is open some annoyed hacker will code a driver.

I think both hardware manufacturers and consumers would benefit from open specifications

Of course there are other issues involved, there are probably stuff in the closed specs and drivers that are NDA:d with other companies. That effectivly makes it impossible to ever hope for open specs. But if we can get hardware manufacturers to understand the benefits we will get better hardware in the future.

And just to clarify, I do not want Ubuntu to remove the restricted section, its just the thing i like least about Ubuntu.

Omnios
October 2nd, 2005, 09:34 PM
Gnome KDE/GGnome dual WM intagration.

Being able log KDE and Gnome is a feature that is so Linux and very usefull in that though I have no kids other do and have read a lot of posts how users wanted to set up Ubuntu for there use and have KDE set up for there kids or other family members. Im torn between Gnome and KDE so want to use both and as I said is so Linux Like. Anyways the problem I have is as I set up KDE trash.desktop, etc it whent screwy in my Gnome. I had a firefox desktop icon that was almost double size. I had trash and home KDE links on my gnome desktop as well as my gnome trash and home (just thought maybe there might be a way to have it so gnome config can hide them in gnome). Im also having some gnome style issues but think this is do to a KDE gnome theme script but not shure.

Anyways if this can be sorted out Dual WM Gnome/KDE might become a popular Ubuntu feature.

brentoboy
October 2nd, 2005, 10:30 PM
samba configuration
(and brown)

poofyhairguy
October 2nd, 2005, 11:45 PM
This is an interesting point. Releasing open specifications can actually help them create better drivers. Allowing kernel developers to do the hard work can save them alot of money and increase the quality of the drivers.

There are loads of drivers in the kernel that the hardware manufacturer has never touched. As long as the specification is open some annoyed hacker will code a driver.

Sometimes even without the specs. Thats what the new OSS ATI driver that is in development is all about!



I think both hardware manufacturers and consumers would benefit from open specifications

Thank goodness for open source fans its possible now to buy whole systems that have open specs. In every part category (except maybe webcams or whatever) there is some open source option. Of course that means you can't jsut buy a prebuilt from Dell, but any nerd worth their salt wouldn't want a prebuilt anyway :). (unless its a gift or something)



Of course there are other issues involved, there are probably stuff in the closed specs and drivers that are NDA:d with other companies. That effectivly makes it impossible to ever hope for open specs. But if we can get hardware manufacturers to understand the benefits we will get better hardware in the future.

The problem comes with how far you are willing to take it. Personally, what the part does matters a lot to me if the specs are open. For example, when I bought my SATA card I picked out one with open specs. Why? Because SATA is something you want to work "out of the box" and I don't want to mess with closed drivers fpr something as important as my data. But I bought two Nvidia cards for tis closed drivers. Why? Because I KNOW that Nvidia has more resources to throw at video driver development than the whole OSS community (thats why the OSS ATI 9200 drivers are still not as good as the Windows counterpart) in that field, and I don't want to suffer a slower/less pretty desktop just for some (admittedly good) ideals. Because of Nvidia, I have most of Vista's effects today- fading windows, drop shadows, no redraw issues even when CPU is at 100%- that no card with OSS drivers can give me in Linux. Thats why I bought the Nvidia card, to get these effects (yes I am shallow), so in that case a closed solution benefits me more.

Open drivers are great for networking devices, controller cards, printers and other things that are easier to make drivers for. For very complicated parts- video cards is the best example- it takes much more talent and resources to get the most out of those cards. The companies that make those devices are the ones that have the resources to make the best drivers, so I say let them. My Linux Nvidia driver does dual head better than the Windows driver does (once you do magic with the xorg.conf) and the overall 3D performance is better for native games. The OSS community cannot match that. Its my personal opinion that it shouldn't try.

But thats just me- a vain nerd that wants whats best and whats convienent. When OSS works for you it can be a powerful force. When its the harder path, it forces hard decisions...



And just to clarify, I do not want Ubuntu to remove the restricted section, its just the thing i like least about Ubuntu.

Then you must really like Ubuntu. Thats awesome!

MemoryDump
October 3rd, 2005, 12:04 AM
I just wished (and this is pretty much for every distro) that some more all-in-one advance printer utilities would be available. I have a Epson Sylus Photo RX500 which can be a pain in the @$$ to run in Linux. I do a ton of high quality photo printing on high gloss photo paper. In Windoze it's a breeze to do since Epson has Windoze drivers and utils. Now I know this isn't Linux's fault but the manufactors themselves. If more companies would follow ATI's, Nvidea, HP's lead then more people would have an easier time printing.
We also need a better all-in-one photo management system. (like Picasa). f-spot, digikam and gthumb are on the right path, however it'll still be years before they catch up with Picasa for example. (hopefully google releases a linux port of picasa)

tageiru
October 3rd, 2005, 12:13 AM
Thank goodness for open source fans its possible now to buy whole systems that have open specs. In every part category (except maybe webcams or whatever) there is some open source option. Of course that means you can't jsut buy a prebuilt from Dell, but any nerd worth their salt wouldn't want a prebuilt anyway :). (unless its a gift or something)
Yeah. Its really great that I can get a fully working system on my thinkpad from just a standard ubuntu installation. Everything works, including 3d acceleration and wifi, without any closed drivers whatsoever.

Windows can't beat that in usability.

Then you must really like Ubuntu. Thats awesome!
Exactly :D

poofyhairguy
October 3rd, 2005, 12:37 AM
Yeah. Its really great that I can get a fully working system on my thinkpad from just a standard ubuntu installation. Everything works, including 3d acceleration and wifi, without any closed drivers whatsoever.



Its great that you get what you want. Yeah for the computer market!

adamb10
October 3rd, 2005, 03:21 AM
Probobly for the fact it contains no build tools at 1st and the fact no cd burning utilities.

joelito
October 3rd, 2005, 04:02 AM
I love ubuntu but, I would love to see some way of installing third party *.debs(not in repositories) without using a terminal (like the rpm installer in fedora, but that also address the problem of installing dependencies by looking for dependencies in the repositories)

erikpiper
October 3rd, 2005, 04:27 AM
Worst: Odd repositories, and I cant install realplayer in breezy at the moment.

Bad: Default theme.

Annoying: Convincing people ubuntu is a real distro (Name), restricted codecs.

Best: No KDE! YAY!

drogoh
October 3rd, 2005, 04:32 AM
Annoying: Convincing people ubuntu is a real distro (Name), restricted codecs.

Best: No KDE! YAY!

1) The codecs are because of how close Ubuntu runs with Debian.

2) Sorry to burst your bubble but there's Kubuntu, which has KDE as the default desktop environment.

Crazy Man
October 3rd, 2005, 04:52 AM
1) No choice of DM/WM at install, though this can be overcome pretty easily by just apt-getting the one you want (I use xfce4).

2) Apt does not have as much selection as portage does. That was my main reason for using gentoo (not working with my wireless card was why I switched to Breezy, which works fine with it :)).

3) The whole human thing. Now I am not a cruel man, and I give mad props for trying to make Linux more "usable". I just think the whole saying "Linux for human beings" with a group hug is a tad cheesy to say the least.

So there you have it: philisophically I'm with gentoo. But ubuntu is the distro that actually works for me the best (for right now anyway).

Qrk
October 3rd, 2005, 06:19 AM
It could use a graphical configuration tool. Something like YaST, but probably not that envolved. I've gotten pretty comfortable with the command line, but I usually tell friends to try SuSE or Mepis before they go to Ubuntu because it will save them a few headaches.

Goober
October 3rd, 2005, 06:29 AM
The only one wee thing that slightly irks me is that my Printer didn't automatically work in breezy. It still doesn't work. I need to muck around with the settings somewhat. In Hoary, literally, it worked with 2 clicks.

I think that is my only quip with Ubuntu. The Printer thing just ain't great. Other from that, pretty much everything else is customizable, and works pretty darn fine. The lack of a GUI installation is, well, I can handle it.

I am annoyed that Ubuntu refuses to install on my Laptop, but, then again, it joins DSL and Knoppix in not installing for some bizarre reason. That hasn't to do with Ubuntu, it has to do with my Laptop *stares at Laptop*

manicka
October 3rd, 2005, 07:53 AM
Worst: Odd repositories, and I cant install realplayer in breezy at the moment.
!

I aliened the rpm available at the realnetworks site and it works without a hitch in breezy

poofyhairguy
October 3rd, 2005, 06:07 PM
I love ubuntu but, I would love to see some way of installing third party *.debs(not in repositories) without using a terminal (like the rpm installer in fedora, but that also address the problem of installing dependencies by looking for dependencies in the repositories)


One day I'm going to sit down with the big guys and ask for that.

bdash
October 3rd, 2005, 06:52 PM
I love ubuntu but, I would love to see some way of installing third party *.debs(not in repositories) without using a terminal (like the rpm installer in fedora, but that also address the problem of installing dependencies by looking for dependencies in the repositories)

Try this:
http://www.gnomefiles.org/app.php?soft_id=601

joelito
October 3rd, 2005, 08:02 PM
Debinstaller or whatever the name is sounds like a good start, however, i meant out of the box.

Oh, and a gnome clipboard daemon by _default_ would be good too

samjam
October 3rd, 2005, 08:28 PM
Here's my gripes:

1. Common version mismatch of packages, e.g. the -dev package that is available doesn't match the package it is for, this drives me mad

2. General lack of source for many packages
sure the source WAS available but now the binary package was pulled, so has the source, aggghhh.

2b. Then there are the folk who distribute debs without source debs. RPM have this right, it's nearly impossible to build an rpm with hand-tweaks, and a simple flag rebuilds the src.rpm at the same time. I'm fed up of src debs that either don't exist or don't build and obviously never did

3. Backports constantly moving all over the place, why can't it keep still so I can find it.

4. Package naming jitters; is it mozilla-firefox or firefox? Make you mind up!

Sam

essexman
October 5th, 2005, 09:22 PM
I though admit that using linux taught me about my hardware but i hate the fact that i have to waste time to make simple functions work like the stupid grammer check of double works. Which for me is a simple program to be added to any editor like abiword or openoffice. I miss automatic checking for capitlized words after a full stop.
I've highlighted the words grammer check and I intend to start lobbying all concerned until we get grammer checkers in open source.

This is a great point from ilbahr.

I am now windows free, but grammer checking in Word for Windows is the thing I will miss the most.

I am Dyspraxic (look it up if you want) but one aspect of this are challanges in reading and writing. Using a keybord is much easier for me than using a pen and Computers have been a God-send, especially spell -checkers which I have been able to take advantage of since I bought my amstrad Word Processor in 1987.

A grammer checker is a vital tool for someone like me, who has great difficulty with spelling words that have multiple spellings such as to, too or two, and there, they're and their. Spell checkers do not pick this up. Also double words and reversed words such as dog or god.

A grammer checker is vital at work, where I, and my 100,000 fellow workers, in a government department, are required to use grammer checkers to help ensure that we keep within the standards of the plain English Campaign.

I discussed these issues today with representatives from Sun Micro Systems. They explained that little work has or is intended to be done on introducing a grammer checker into future versions of Open Office or Star Office. This was because their was an insufficient business need.

Customers (users) have complained about this but most have coped.

I spoke with a chap from the english version of opensourceacademy (most european countries will be getting one I understand) andhe had assisted with the Bristol City council's migration to Star Office. He was very enthusiastic and met me on the Sun stand to back me up.

The Sun reps contacted a head developer in Hamburg who confirmed that there will not be a grammer checker in Star Office 8, newly released, and no current intention for version 9.

But they are willing to talk. I think that we could make simple checking features as suggested by ilbahr could be gained as quick fixes. I also think that the time is right to get grammer checkers added into open source. opensourceacademy appear to support this, and so did the Sun Reps. I think if enough support could be developed a Grammer checker could become a reality.

This is a much bigger undertaking than a spell checker, and of course the software needs to accomodate different rule systems for every language. But there is tremendous expertise out there.

I will keep posting. And on other Linux sites

laforge
October 6th, 2005, 02:13 AM
Probably something wrong on my end but,

1) not detecting wireless without tweaking
2) sound sucks, probably because of lame generic one
3) Gnome by default like others said, i like Xfce

Yaron
October 10th, 2005, 01:50 PM
1. There IS no TrueGuide, or any explanations for non UNIX/Linux users.
__THIS IS A CRITICAL MUST HAVE__!!

2. ubuntu dos not mount my HD partitions, and if the user manage
to do so on he's one, ubuntu deny him privileges to he's one HD.

3. All Keyboard shortcuts on all software do not work on a
different Language Layout.

4. I cannot create shortcuts for a certain program on it's one
Properties menu.

5. I cannot Operate the "Applications" menu by typing the first
letter of the sub menu.

6. I'm nagged, well TO much to type in my admin password.

7. i cannot run games (FREE of Charge) on ubuntu, and if i want to
abandon Windows all together i cannot install them on ubuntu.

8. The Synaptic Package Manager Do not put shortcuts to the
programs in the menu, or desktop. (This Also is a MUST HAVE)

9. I hate that on the first update, ubuntu replace the dutifully
wallpaper, with one that is less pretty, And that it do not ask my
permission to do so in the first place..

There Is More, But This Are The Main Problems.

poofyhairguy
October 11th, 2005, 12:44 AM
1. There IS no TrueGuide, or any explanations for non UNIX/Linux users.
__THIS IS A CRITICAL MUST HAVE__!!

2. ubuntu dos not mount my HD partitions, and if the user manage
to do so on he's one, ubuntu deny him privileges to he's one HD.

3. All Keyboard shortcuts on all software do not work on a
different Language Layout.

4. I cannot create shortcuts for a certain program on it's one
Properties menu.

All great points.



5. I cannot Operate the "Applications" menu by typing the first
letter of the sub menu.

Neat idea.



6. I'm nagged, well TO much to type in my admin password.

Taht is the price we pay for security. Everytime you are asked for your password, its a failsafe. Maybe it is too much, and maybe some security documentation needs to be made.



7. i cannot run games (FREE of Charge) on ubuntu, and if i want to
abandon Windows all together i cannot install them on ubuntu.

That will never be solved in teh near future. Linux just won't run Windows games worth a darn. Even Cedega sucks in many ways. Its just a fact of life....



8. The Synaptic Package Manager Do not put shortcuts to the
programs in the menu, or desktop. (This Also is a MUST HAVE)

That is being worked on, but it might not be fixed for a while. Its a big problem.



9. I hate that on the first update, ubuntu replace the dutifully
wallpaper, with one that is less pretty, And that it do not ask my
permission to do so in the first place..


I didn't know about that, but good point.

polo_step
October 11th, 2005, 04:42 AM
I've highlighted the words grammer check and I intend to start lobbying all concerned until we get grammer checkers in open source.

I'm waiting for a grammar check. ;)

Seriously though, the lack of a grammar check is another one of the big fatal minuses to Linux for me.:(

I write a lot and often for publication, so the Word grammar check function is essential -- while I don't always agree with the usage rules the engine seems to employ, the program catches a whole bunch of dumb stuff I know better than to do but don't catch on the first editing pass. It's a big time-saver.

As far as I know, no Linux word processor or editor has one. If I'm mistaken, please let me know which one does.

dmacdonald111
October 11th, 2005, 07:03 AM
When I started reading this post, I thought, great! Someone's going to mention it so I wouldn't have to. By the time I got to the end, I thought that I must be the easiest pleased person in the world! lol I only have one gripe about ubuntu;

BROWN?!?!?!?

Yes, there are things that I wish were different apart from that, but that's what makes it unique :) And it will help me learn it better when I sit there and think 'I wanna change that' or 'I wanna be able to do that'

Thanks ubuntu :D