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View Full Version : The Future of Linux, Ubuntu, and Computing



bsalt
October 17th, 2007, 11:52 PM
I'm a Linux enthusiast. I want to become a guru of Linux, but I'm still getting there. Looking at the movement of Linux and open-source and how it is making such an impact, I think I can say that the future of computing around the world - in businesses, schools and at home - is Linux. It is free and provides an endless array of opportunities. As for specific distributions, I think that each different distribution will become more like versions of Linux. Kind of like versions of Windows or versions of Vista. Or, perhaps more like product lines. Once Linux becomes widespread, people will know what one distribution is built and geared toward, and what they want, and they will be able to go online and download that distro that is geared toward them.


That is all just guess and a theory, but how do you feel about the future with Linux?

GSF1200S
October 18th, 2007, 12:07 AM
I'm a Linux enthusiast. I want to become a guru of Linux, but I'm still getting there. Looking at the movement of Linux and open-source and how it is making such an impact, I think I can say that the future of computing around the world - in businesses, schools and at home - is Linux. It is free and provides an endless array of opportunities. As for specific distributions, I think that each different distribution will become more like versions of Linux. Kind of like versions of Windows or versions of Vista. Or, perhaps more like product lines. Once Linux becomes widespread, people will know what one distribution is built and geared toward, and what they want, and they will be able to go online and download that distro that is geared toward them.


That is all just guess and a theory, but how do you feel about the future with Linux?

It wont be the future if the Trusted Computing Group takes hold- Linux will be thrown out as a movement that never went anywhere.

Please dont confuse this as something Im content with. I LOVE linux; im already looking at a career in it, and I came into it through Edgy (not that long ago). Im TERRIFIED of what might happen with this TC, and im at a loss to find anything but a futile solution.

OSS and Linux is dead if TC takes hold. Check out my sig...

ticopelp
October 18th, 2007, 12:17 AM
I think trusted computing is way too problematic to take hold in the long term. Call me an optimist, but everything in the computing world has been veering away from that model lately. Vista was loaded with TC stuff that they basically jettisoned before release.

Again, call me a Pollyanna if you like, but I think open source and free software is going to become more sophisticated, easy to use, and attract a lot more people.

Paul820
October 18th, 2007, 12:20 AM
@GSF1200S, i have just read a small part of that trusted computing article, bookmarked to read the rest later. From the part i did read, well, that is scary. Having my computer snooped on by others is not right. When that day comes i will stop using a computer.

GSF1200S
October 18th, 2007, 12:43 AM
I think trusted computing is way too problematic to take hold in the long term. Call me an optimist, but everything in the computing world has been veering away from that model lately. Vista was loaded with TC stuff that they basically jettisoned before release.

Again, call me a Pollyanna if you like, but I think open source and free software is going to become more sophisticated, easy to use, and attract a lot more people.

I really, really, really, really hope that you are right. We are both entitled to our own opinions, and im definitely on the pessimistic side of things. I would point to you how the world has defaulted on greed throughout history. Its a cycle. Where that cycle is the question. In history, the cycle has always been leaders (of government, economics, etc) manipulating the general population, eventually leading to a dictatorship. Then, it crumbles with time, and the cycle starts over with a different set of people in a different situation. In the computing world, TCG are the "leaders," and control/greed is what they are fueled by. In history, we have always lost, until they fall apart.

@Paul820- oh yeah, it sure is scary.

Its not really the software/hardware restriction that is dangerous to thought (its bad for freedom of choice). Its when the censoring starts taking place. When a website wont display on your computer because youre running Linux, and they will only allow "trusted" OSes such as Windows- thats the end of linux. And when you consider the technologies that will be used to control how our hardware/software works, and the fact that for example the US government has already forced ISPs to log what sites we visit for 2 years, they will be able to censor what websites we see and know exactly what we do by name. The chip is already planted on your motherboard by the way- are you sure that its not going to happen?

@ polyanna :) - I really hope you are right, and you may be- my opinion is no more justified or entitled than yours. But regaurdless, if in fact TCG makes it to primetime, Linux, OSS, and freedom of choice and information is dead.

CaptainTux
October 18th, 2007, 12:45 AM
I think trusted computing is way too problematic to take hold in the long term. Call me an optimist, but everything in the computing world has been veering away from that model lately. Vista was loaded with TC stuff that they basically jettisoned before release.

Ageed!

Ultra Magnus
October 18th, 2007, 12:48 AM
It wont be the future if the Trusted Computing Group takes hold- Linux will be thrown out as a movement that never went anywhere.

Please dont confuse this as something Im content with. I LOVE linux; im already looking at a career in it, and I came into it through Edgy (not that long ago). Im TERRIFIED of what might happen with this TC, and im at a loss to find anything but a futile solution.

OSS and Linux is dead if TC takes hold. Check out my sig...

I just read that article and I think that those kind of nightmare features would have to be phased in over a very long period of time, otherwise the EU would have a fit! There is no way that they would find it legal for MS to delete your files - windows would be outlawed - Either that or some disgruntled hacker would hack into MS servers and Press the Delete all the files in the USA and we could market Linux as the OS that doesn't delete an entire continents files - There is no way anyone would allow that kind of feature.

SunnyRabbiera
October 18th, 2007, 12:49 AM
I am sort of neutral on trusted computing, even DRM as both if used properly could be beneficial, its greedy business practices that really give them a bad rap.

GSF1200S
October 18th, 2007, 12:50 AM
Oh, and when you say TC is too problematic, could you be a little more specific? Id love to hear something I may not have thought of- thats what the net is about... sharing ideas.

Not to jack the thread BTW. Assuming TC doesnt hit primetime, Linux, OSS and the internet have a VERY bright future. We may never be majority market share (and thats fine), but we will definitely be a force.

While OSS is awesome, it goes against what "leaders" want, and thats money/power. Its good natured vs. greedy nowadays, and im happy to say that we are on the good side! :)

**EDIT** Remember: In a defensive position, complacency bears no arms or witness...

ticopelp
October 18th, 2007, 12:58 AM
I really, really, really, really hope that you are right. We are both entitled to our own opinions, and im definitely on the pessimistic side of things. I would point to you how the world has defaulted on greed throughout history.

I agree, and, odd as it may seem, that's part of why I think TC will fail. Putting all the control for user's desktops into the hands of large corporations means that those corporations now have a responsibility to support and account for those problems.

If Joe Average (or, better yet, Joe Large Business) wakes up one morning and finds that his personal computer (or 20+ workstations) suddenly no longer work because of a glitch in TC, and they call MS (or whomever) and are told "oops, sorry, you must now buy an OS upgrade / pay an unlocking fee / wait for our authentication servers to reboot," that guy is likely to go straight to the competitors.

It's also likely that a push towards TC would mean many more people buying hardware and software from overseas sources -- I don't think the Asian mobo market is too likely to hop on the TC bandwagon, especially not if there is a sudden niche market to corner. Which will mean more money for someone else.

Plus the fact that I don't think there's any way to market TC that won't come across as a PR disaster. "We make things secure, by controlling everything you do!" A lot of people like to download movies, music, porn, etc. and don't want to be told they can't.

Lastly, have you been watching the arms race with the MPAA / RIAA and their utterly futile attempts to lock down DVD encryption, filesharing, etc. etc. In the information age, pushing genies back into their bottles is hard.

I just think TC would be too much of a manpower headache for even huge companies to try to enforce in the long term. But we certainly may be in for a bumpy ride before then.

CaptainTux
October 18th, 2007, 12:59 AM
The future of Open Source and Linux is an interesting question. I do not think it is THE future, but I think it will be an integral part of the future.

Everyone used to speak of "the year of the Linux desktop". I do not think there is such a critter. I think one day we are going to look back and realize a lot more people are using it and know about that they used to. Things like the Ubuntu/Dell deal, RedHat getting the City of Chicago, and other events are steps in the right direction.

I just started teaching part time at a small college in the Chicago area. This semester I am teaching an intro to computers course. I had autonomy in designing my syllabus. My text book is Marcel Gagne's Moving to Open Source Software. My justification was 2 fold. 1. This would level the playing field for all students my having everyone out of their comfort zone. 2. It is important for students to learn the PRINCIPLES of using a word processor or a spreadsheet as opposed to being married to a program.

Now, what has this exposure to alternative software done? The students LOVE the software. They also like my instruction. Next semester I will be teaching a practical application class and it appears I have the most popular elective in pre registration by a landslide.

I have passed out 4 copies of Feisty to my students and they have run it live. None of them have installed yet, but 1 is getting real close. Next week I am donating a computer to the student union. The one in the union is shot...it will be an Ubuntu box.

On the 25th of this month there is a staff meeting and one of the things on the agenda is my proposal to replace the schools server software with Ubuntu. My pitch has gained some support and has teeth and I am confidant that it will happen.

This is a small contribution to the future. There are small contributions to the future going on all over the worlds and the media is slowly starting to take notice.

MS is taking some hits right now. The WOW is about as exciting as a dial tone right now. Apple is not marketing as hard and as clever as they are known for. Ubuntu is really hitting the right time in the right place.

MS and Apple are not going away any time soon, but I am confidant that Linux will gain a greater market share and be a household name. Hey, 90% own Windows....but everyone has heard of a Macs.

bsalt
October 18th, 2007, 01:05 AM
@GSF1200S - With your comment about TC and censorship with the internet, it's already happening. Not with TC though. With Google. Google wanted the Chinese government to allow Google to be accessed by the Chinese, which is censorship already, and then the Chinese government said that Google is allowed, only if they block sites that bashed communism, the Chinese government and pretty much made for China a pro-China internet that leaves them out of the loop with the rest of the world. Or, at least I hope the rest of the world is not censored internet.


@CaptainTux

I know what you mean about marrying students to a specific application. I took an Intro to Computers course a year ago for a college requirement, and it was all Microsoft Office 2003. We had to know the stinking shortcut keys on the keyboard for each Office program. I was so sick of it I could have puked. Thank you for teaching principalities and not technicalities that don't matter. As a current college student, the technical things in various subjects don't mean anything to me if I'm not going to use that class for my career. Put me in a programming class and I'll eat every bit of it up, but put me in a class totally unrelated in anyway and I will not retain all that stuff, just the general principle of what we learned. Thanks again.

GSF1200S
October 18th, 2007, 01:13 AM
I agree, and, odd as it may seem, that's part of why I think TC will fail. Putting all the control for user's desktops into the hands of large corporations means that those corporations now have a responsibility to support and account for those problems.

If Joe Average (or, better yet, Joe Large Business) wakes up one morning and finds that his personal computer (or 20+ workstations) suddenly no longer work because of a glitch in TC, and they call MS (or whomever) and are told "oops, sorry, you must now buy an OS upgrade / pay an unlocking fee / wait for our authentication servers to reboot," that guy is likely to go straight to the competitors.

It's also likely that a push towards TC would mean many more people buying hardware and software from overseas sources -- I don't think the Asian mobo market is too likely to hop on the TC bandwagon, especially not if there is a sudden niche market to corner. Which will mean more money for someone else.

Plus the fact that I don't think there's any way to market TC that won't come across as a PR disaster. "We make things secure, by controlling everything you do!" A lot of people like to download movies, music, porn, etc. and don't want to be told they can't.

Lastly, have you been watching the arms race with the MPAA / RIAA and their utterly futile attempts to lock down DVD encryption, filesharing, etc. etc. In the information age, pushing genies back into their bottles is hard.

I just think TC would be too much of a manpower headache for even huge companies to try to enforce in the long term. But we certainly may be in for a bumpy ride before then.

Good points for sure. To play the devils advocate, the internet would have seemed impossible in the 50s, so never doubt the innovation of people on both sides of the coin.

Im going to look up some stuff based on what you said though, and I would suggest the same for you... this is how we win, if that makes sense.

GSF1200S
October 18th, 2007, 01:15 AM
The future of Open Source and Linux is an interesting question. I do not think it is THE future, but I think it will be an integral part of the future.

Everyone used to speak of "the year of the Linux desktop". I do not think there is such a critter. I think one day we are going to look back and realize a lot more people are using it and know about that they used to. Things like the Ubuntu/Dell deal, RedHat getting the City of Chicago, and other events are steps in the right direction.

I just started teaching part time at a small college in the Chicago area. This semester I am teaching an intro to computers course. I had autonomy in designing my syllabus. My text book is Marcel Gagne's Moving to Open Source Software. My justification was 2 fold. 1. This would level the playing field for all students my having everyone out of their comfort zone. 2. It is important for students to learn the PRINCIPLES of using a word processor or a spreadsheet as opposed to being married to a program.

Now, what has this exposure to alternative software done? The students LOVE the software. They also like my instruction. Next semester I will be teaching a practical application class and it appears I have the most popular elective in pre registration by a landslide.

I have passed out 4 copies of Feisty to my students and they have run it live. None of them have installed yet, but 1 is getting real close. Next week I am donating a computer to the student union. The one in the union is shot...it will be an Ubuntu box.

On the 25th of this month there is a staff meeting and one of the things on the agenda is my proposal to replace the schools server software with Ubuntu. My pitch has gained some support and has teeth and I am confidant that it will happen.

This is a small contribution to the future. There are small contributions to the future going on all over the worlds and the media is slowly starting to take notice.

MS is taking some hits right now. The WOW is about as exciting as a dial tone right now. Apple is not marketing as hard and as clever as they are known for. Ubuntu is really hitting the right time in the right place.

MS and Apple are not going away any time soon, but I am confidant that Linux will gain a greater market share and be a household name. Hey, 90% own Windows....but everyone has heard of a Macs.

Damn man.. you have a nice resume in the OSS world.. haha :) Im the same way (although I dont have quite as many people to influence), and its only through these methods that we have a chance.

CaptainTux
October 18th, 2007, 01:21 AM
Damn man.. you have a nice resume in the OSS world.. haha :) Im the same way (although I dont have quite as many people to influence), and its only through these methods that we have a chance.
Not as nice as I would like, but my ego has had a few strokes.

I have written a smattering of articles, created some trouble for Dell with a blog that was DUGG and Slashdotted, sat on the Community Board as Vice Chair for Freespire, spoke at a few Linux conventions, and I speak at local colleges and universities in the Chicago area on Linux and Open Source.

If I ever get a book deal or my own column in JL or Format OR get to be a host on LUG Radio dropping F bombs with Jono...well, that would rock!!!! ;)

Paul820
October 18th, 2007, 01:29 AM
The future is going to be like that film 'equilibrium', big tv screens all over with governments pushing things into our brains controlling us like robots.

ticopelp
October 18th, 2007, 01:30 AM
Good points for sure. To play the devils advocate, the internet would have seemed impossible in the 50s, so never doubt the innovation of people on both sides of the coin.

That's true. I don't mean to imply that we shouldn't still be vigilant and do all we can to actively resist TC. I'm optimistic, but I'd like to think I'm not utterly naive. :KS

The other thing that bolsters my outlook on this is that to some degree, early forays into TC have already been tried, and failed -- the aforementioned Vista "trusted computing," (which was stripped, to the best of my knowledge) and also, a few years back, Intel put out some chips that "phoned home" and shared information with Intel -- there was a huge backlash against it, and I believe the chips were discontinued.

There's also the problem of there being a ton of old hardware out there that won't be compatible with any totalitarian hardware scheme, and the marketing gimmick has not been invented yet that can force a user or company to upgrade if they don't want to, or don't have the funds.

There just isn't a lot of support for TC on the consumer end, and I think that in a capitalist system, telling someone "you must buy this tool and use it this way" rarely works out, especially with something as sophisticated and versatile as a computer.



Im going to look up some stuff based on what you said though, and I would suggest the same for you... this is how we win, if that makes sense.

Definitely. I should mention that TC was a pet issue of mine for many years. I used to worry about it tremendously, and I still do sometimes.

But my personal philosophy is that people are generally divisive -- culture and demographics are constantly breaking into smaller subcultures and niche markets, and I think big businesses are going to want to cater to everyone, rather than excluding a growing (and very vocal) minority. Especially an inventive, technically savvy, occasionally mischievous minority.

GSF1200S
October 18th, 2007, 01:34 AM
The future is going to be like that film 'equilibrium', big tv screens all over with governments pushing things into our brains controlling us like robots.

Ill be living in the woods with a shotgun and a rifle, or ill be dead... that simply will never happen to me. If it does, I will be killed for resisting, or I will lead/ be actively involved in a resistance group that seeks to dethrone..

Paul820
October 18th, 2007, 01:44 AM
Ill be living in the woods with a shotgun and a rifle, or ill be dead... that simply will never happen to me. If it does, I will be killed for resisting, or I will lead/ be actively involved in a resistance group that seeks to dethrone..

:lolflag: i don't think it will get that bad. I just thought about that film while reading this thread.

bsalt
October 18th, 2007, 01:45 AM
The future is going to be like that film 'equilibrium', big tv screens all over with governments pushing things into our brains controlling us like robots.

LOL I had no idea that would happen.




It's also likely that a push towards TC would mean many more people buying hardware and software from overseas sources -- I don't think the Asian mobo market is too likely to hop on the TC bandwagon, especially not if there is a sudden niche market to corner. Which will mean more money for someone else.

My favorite motherboard manufacturer is ASUS and I'm pretty sure they are from Taiwan. Toshiba is Japanese, I think and they are solid machines, as well as Sony. The one problem is the processors that power them are either Intel or AMD. And last I heard, both chip manufacturers were in on TC. So who is there to turn to for processors? Is Motorola still producing? But also, most Asian countries don't take too kindly to U.S. ideals, so they would never go with TC as long this country is still called the United States of America.

CaptainTux
October 18th, 2007, 01:46 AM
I dunno. Though I do believe there are some who would try to restrict freedoms or invade privacy in the name of profit...I just do not get alarmed easily by such as this. Maybe that is because I work for illuminati....not sure. ;)

GSF1200S
October 18th, 2007, 01:48 AM
That's true. I don't mean to imply that we shouldn't still be vigilant and do all we can to actively resist TC. I'm optimistic, but I'd like to think I'm not utterly naive. :KS

The other thing that bolsters my outlook on this is that to some degree, early forays into TC have already been tried, and failed -- the aforementioned Vista "trusted computing," (which was stripped, to the best of my knowledge) and also, a few years back, Intel put out some chips that "phoned home" and shared information with Intel -- there was a huge backlash against it, and I believe the chips were discontinued.

There's also the problem of there being a ton of old hardware out there that won't be compatible with any totalitarian hardware scheme, and the marketing gimmick has not been invented yet that can force a user or company to upgrade if they don't want to, or don't have the funds.

There just isn't a lot of support for TC on the consumer end, and I think that in a capitalist system, telling someone "you must buy this tool and use it this way" rarely works out, especially with something as sophisticated and versatile as a computer.



Definitely. I should mention that TC was a pet issue of mine for many years. I used to worry about it tremendously, and I still do sometimes.

But my personal philosophy is that people are generally divisive -- culture and demographics are constantly breaking into smaller subcultures and niche markets, and I think big businesses are going to want to cater to everyone, rather than excluding a growing (and very vocal) minority. Especially an inventive, technically savvy, occasionally mischievous minority.

You are familar with Windows VIsta Ultimate's Bitlocker hard drive encryption right? Even so, I believe this can be turned off, but it seems like a start. Odd that its not in the other variations...

Amazing about Intel.. didnt know that.

Yeah, its definitely stripped for the most part, but the chips are still in the vast majority of new mobos. So, at least in part, the effort is there.

Once again.. the technologies they use to control us can be cracked. But with this whole remote attestation deal, censorship of websites according to corporate and political agenda would be possible. As you said, there is a lot of old hardware that would need to be phased out.

I might add a final point that things like this always happen slowly. Its notorious in history that this is the case. Take the intel deal for instance- that was a feeler they put out there to see how wed respond. Rightfully so, we were outraged. Same thing with gun laws. Now, regaurdless of how you feel about guns, the changes put in place to remove them are always the same. First, its to reduce crime. They are put at the base of every evil crime that happens, and they slowly convince people of how bad they are. Then, they start making laws restricting and tracking them, so they know who has them. When its all said and done, people think guns are evil, and they want them gone.

What they fail to realize is that people are the problem, and it doesnt matter what weapons they have available.. people will still do horrible things. The same is true of TC.. they will SLOWLY throw it in there if they manage to suceede, and they will slowly paint OSS as an evil thing that leads to viruses, etc.

The same thing applies with cars. The new BMW dealers automatically call you when you need an oil change, because the car tells the dealer! That would have been big brother defined in the old days, and now its a feature.. I think you see where im going with this.

Once again ill be looking into what youve said- they definitely have serious obstacles to overcome before such a massive implementation can be achieved. Hopefully they will fall to the wayside...

Cheers all :)

bsalt
October 18th, 2007, 02:02 AM
I dunno. Though I do believe there are some who would try to restrict freedoms or invade privacy in the name of profit...I just do not get alarmed easily by such as this. Maybe that is because I work for illuminati....not sure. ;)

Careful. You could get arrested for saying something like that. ;)

CaptainTux
October 18th, 2007, 02:11 AM
Careful. You could get arrested for saying something like that. ;)

Wouldn't be the first time I spent the night in county lock up....though it has been over a decade. ;)

bsalt
October 18th, 2007, 02:26 AM
It wasn't about the illuminati though, was it? :-o

CaptainTux
October 18th, 2007, 02:30 AM
Not too far off from the illuminati...it was a bar fight.

udanielo
November 29th, 2007, 03:40 AM
It's called CONDITIONING...

Yes, TC will be everywhere! No one can stop it. Actually no one cares to stop it. Here is an example...

10 years ago a shopper would walk into a department store and look at an item and would not purchase it if it was made in china or anywhere overseas. It was an inferior quality product and not good for jobs in your home town. Now 100% if not more of the products on the shelves are from china and no one cares, They buy it all by the million every single day. The BIG money makers have conditioned us... cheap products... even good quality names that people used to buy because of the name... made in China...

All this has nothing to do with TC, but what I am trying to say is that before you know it... you will stop for a second and look at your toaster and realise, Holy crap it'll only toast bread made by Microloaf!

If you introduce TC in all new computers today and inforce it. People would freak out... (they will complain but won't do nothing about it)

Just like raising gas prices from 2.25 to 3.00 in a day freaks people out, but the day after put it down to 2.50 and everyone is happy!

There is one solution. Stop upgrading... I find that is the #1 problem with Linux... too much hardware to support and by the time you write drivers for it, people have new hardware...

Linux has gone a long way, and from what I can see it will go a long way... maybe the way I see it... The rich will be using TC everything and the poor (most people) will be using Old linux computers.

greed has always ruled and ruined the world... always will...

Have fun... must go, my computer is warning me about my post!

holiday
November 29th, 2007, 04:01 AM
I hope with all my heart that Linux is not the future. Some successful operating system in the future may have Unix roots, but Linux is a hopeless mess.

I say this as a loyal Linux user since 1995. My long experience with this OS tells me that it is falling apart. The only reason it survives is that there are so many people who enjoy putting things back together.

I am *so!!!!* tired of things falling apart on an update after I've spent hours getting them to work.

I guess what I'd like is a solid OS with commandline roots, just ONE music player, just ONE DVD player, just ONE storage loader, print server that works as reliably as even the most pathetic Windows application.

But the problem is that people would rather re-write a buggy app than fix the buggy app. So we have buggy BMP based on buggy XMMS - two buggy music players. All that wasted effort! And all of these DVD players but not one single one that offers even a slice of the functionality of any standard Windows or Mac DVD player.

What's going on?

It's too boring to fix stuff. It's way more fun to write your own buggy app than it is to fix someone else's buggy app. Obviously! Who wants to work through the really hard stuff?

And since we're all volunteers here, all we get is lots and lots of buggy apps.

I'm not complaining, ok? I get it. It's free so instead of complaining devote my weekend to getting my sound working again after the latest update.

The person who will do this is rare, ok. Rare!

This is why Linux, Ubuntu -whatever is not the future. It may be in the future like some people actually now still collect stamps, but most people have other things to do.

hogwartsnigel
November 29th, 2007, 06:04 AM
Wow what a thread.
to Captain Tux....Rock on, I mean your passive influence on raising awareness and curiosity is to be so applauded, and if that strokes your ego so be it. I've only been a Linux user for oh...lets see.....Gutsy!!!!! winDOSE since 95, Always thought Linux was simply nothing more than an OS for electronics or Programmer majors. The political side was never put to my naive little brain cynical enough to think MS,Mac, Linux same shady groups touting for global supremecy. HOW WRONG CAN YOU BE, the free and free aspect of linux is a utopian realisation to me and has led me to change 5 of my 6 systems to be Linux (one distro or another) and the other to dual. Every day I have told, shared info etc about Linux to receptive individuals...and they take it all in, and many have already come back and report running from live, dual booting and one ditched Vista in a heartbeat straight to fresh single install. Everyone can spread what they no to be true. Good on ya!

to Udaneilo. People do care if it directly effects them and they are made aware of the options. Sure it is a world were the corporate eye at every turn tries to monitor and survey the unruly nature of the populus as a whole,but history is riddled with the constant struggle to create a controlling state. Evidence would suggest the harder the squeeze the harder the revolutionary force. There is no going quietly to many in society.

I love the analogy at the struggle against game consoles, the copyright protections, the physical conective issues etc...but every console has been hacked, improved, developed and transformed into something better by people wanting to alter THEIR system. These adapted systems could be used illegally but predominantly improved their usability to the consumers that didn't just lay down.

Australia recently spent many millions creating a sensorship software utility for general use (still voluntarily but the idea was there.) Within two days a 9yr old hacker had hacked, and screwed the programme very publically...the methods are downloadable as of day 4. I am not endorsing this but it is pretty typical of the abilities of our communities to burst open any constricting nets imposed.

The Dell deal was huge and indeed could be a floodgate opener, once people see real alternatives, or are made aware of any alternative they become curious and that follows the asking of questions, and comparisons. WE know linux wins on all counts..no problem.
The future for computing rests parallel to the future of humanity itself a sharing self and enviromentally aware gregarious one or the spawned isolatary self interested one.

Just my A$0.02

Nigel

intelligentfool
November 29th, 2007, 06:40 AM
i personally changed all my email sigs to "Switch to Linux - www.getgnulinux.org"

but about the future... there are some major players now fully behind linux, IBM being the biggest from my understanding, with some 600 full time developers working 100% on linux. I'm sure MS has 10x that, maybe 100x working on windows alone (not to count the office suite, and other apps), but IBM is just one company among dozens, and thats not counting the volunteers. so, as far as the "buggy" nature of some apps go, i see that continuing to improve. i'm sure there'll always be small apps without much activity, but... the major apps will continue to get better and better.

I think what we'll see is OSS taking over in the very long run (10-20 years out maybe) and proprietary software maintaining some nitch markets. hardware is getting cheaper and faster, consumers dont want to pay $600 for an OS when the desktop it self costs $400. and large enterprises need to be able to move data back and forth seemlessly, and want to avoid vendor lock-in whenever possible.... something not possible on MS or Mac's. All signs point to OSS from where i'm standing.

linuxlizard
November 29th, 2007, 07:05 AM
I don't know guys- I could go either way on this.

Here's why- I think history will repeat itself. Forgive the rambling but I think I have to set up the history a little for the younger crowd.

I first got into computers in the early 80s. Some of us had commodores, some had ataris, some had IBM, some apple, some TI, some radioshack, etc etc etc. At that time, software that ran on a commodore didn't run on an ibm, apple, radioshack, etc. Unless it was ported to it by the software manufacturer. You couldn't go out and piece together a pc out of parts like today- everything was built by the manufacturer or by parts specific to that manufacturer and the os only worked on those parts. No compatibility issues because each machine was the same for each brand. A game would come out and be released with different versions for each machine. Many of these computers in the home were hooked up to tv sets. It was really a great time to be a kid into computers- with no internet and word processors that you had to learn something like html to use everyone was trying to figure out what the heck exactly a computer was supposed to be useful for. The standard stuff was just being invented (word processors, image editing, spreadsheets, games, e-mail on local dialup boards that were like using a terminal). Games were really cool because no one had any history to follow- so you did things like camels in space spitting at space spiders and slapping mosquitos and stuff.

By the mid 90s, most of the competing brands had died off, leaving ibm compatibles and apple. The compatibles ran windows/dos mostly and apple ran mac whatever and they sat on the desktop with their own monitors- no longer used on tvs. Standard game categories and productivity software had become more cemented.

Now they say home computers in japan are being replaced by cell phones. Also in the US, you've got game consoles that are almost computers - ps3 for example can run linux.

Some game consoles are more expensive now than some computers. What if microsoft came out with windows x-box edition? What if ps3 released a proprietary linux with closed source to protect it's hardware drivers? If you were on a budget and wanted a home computer and the kids wanted an x-box, what would you do? Most people I think would get the x-box in that case- with windows built in, keyboard, printer, and there you go - a return to the 80s where the hardware and software have merged. No need to protecting the os from pirates is built in because they've got to have the hardware to go with it. Think microsoft hasn't thought of this? I think they have and are easing into it...

Take it a step further and you have to buy all your software for the machine online, watch tv and movies through the machine, and microsoft logs everything you buy, look at, search for, watch, etc...

you even plug the thing into high def tv- just like we plugged our 80s home computers into tvs in the 80s... And cell phones, and probably car computers with gps and web browsing, etc. All keeping track of where you are going and what you are doing, and all running proprietary software on proprietary os made specifically for the machine brands running them.

Oh yeah, they will get us yet- microsoft will loose the home desktop in the next several years but they won't care- they'll still be in businesses and they'll have the home gamebox desktop and internet delivered content like movies and tv and radio will be delivered through those boxes and they will take a piece of the pie every time... We'll be computing from the couch on our giant screen high def tvs...

:popcorn:

Xbehave
November 29th, 2007, 07:16 AM
All that wasted effort! And all of these DVD players but not one single one that offers even a slice of the functionality of any standard Windows or Mac DVD player.
heard of VLC?
can you rewind/fastforward on MAC DVD player?
can you play ISOs on Windows DVD players without the need for extra software?
xine based DVD players (in ym case kaffine) also offer most mac/windows features

ON TOPIC:
i think DRM and TC will increase as many users want to have remotely administered systems
however i don't think itll affect the way users use there computers as much as feared, i think people that like controlling thier systems will still be able to avoid it.

I think the future of computing is peripherals, receiving emails to your tv, checking what's in your fridge on your phone, music following you around the house, etc. I cant see any major changes in the desktop environment.
at the same time i see virtualisation being overly marketed and single supper powerful servers replacing clusters,

hogwartsnigel
November 29th, 2007, 12:52 PM
Linux Lizard, Your not that old I rmember playing 3d Monstermaze on a zx81, or zeldas first makover on commadore dragon and 64 etc, not to mention the vic 20 ah the memories.
The weird thing was your right they weren't computers to me they were game consoles, sure we all did if 10 is > x goto 7 type games etc...but they were entertainment tv consoles.

I don't think the Xbox 360 Media PC will be the way we'll go the ftp http functions and accesabilities mean we can crack them via our more customisable desktops...we never had this option.
Imagine going back to 1982 and someone saying I've got this drive to add to your sinclair that lets it look like and play my commodore games etc..we'd all be cracking them apart and messing, PC's we can and do do this.

I think the future is rosey, unless you suffer (MS) sorry if this offends anyone that has Multiple Sclerosis (it is not my intention), I of course I mean the more serious illness transmitted by Monsieur Gates.

Dixon Bainbridge
November 29th, 2007, 01:44 PM
Trusted computing is a dead duck. You can only push consumers so far. DRM was a step too far and now thats dying very slowly on its ***. I can't see TC having any kind of influence in the future at all.

At the end of the day, if you build a wall around your clubhouse and bar non members, those on the outside go build their own clubhouse.

linuxlizard
November 29th, 2007, 04:01 PM
I don't feel old until I see a lot of forum users say they started computing on windows 98! I started on a vic, but remember using a neighbors commodore pet before that, and I used to play games on a university mainframe when I visited a friend whose dad worked on it and had a terminal at home.
:lolflag:


Imagine going back to 1982 and someone saying I've got this drive to add to your sinclair that lets it look like and play my commodore games etc..we'd all be cracking them apart and messing, PC's we can and do do this.

Ah, but you could in some cases. There was a thingie that let you play atari 2600 carts on the vic, and a thing that let you run apple2 stuff on the c64 can't remember the atari thing, the c64 thing was called a spartan I think. Both were hardware- probably just leached the power off the cart ports to run the compatible hardware. If I remember right it was almost as cheap to buy the apple2. That's neither here nor there, but fun trivia anyway.

Your right- I think the pc is a better deal, and I hope it lives forever, but I don't think it will. Even here on ubuntu boards you've got people saying if you want to game, buy a game consol (which run more than a low end computer, heck 4 recently released games will cost more than the new ubuntu based gOS pc from walmart). If everyone's buying game consols anyway, once these guys make the move to give them the usefulness of a home pc, I think lots of home users will just go with the game consol and forget the desktop, especially if and once movies and tv are delivered via the same box. Microsoft may be evil, but they aren't stupid and always have tried to get a monopoly. All they need to do right now is make a few deals to deliver i-tunes, tv, netflix, and make a windows that's 100% compatible with the desktop version and they've got a superbox...

JAPrufrock
November 29th, 2007, 04:20 PM
I agree with most of what GSF1200S has presented/said. The biggest threat to freedom and democracies are big business and monopolies, of which Microsoft is the biggest and most dangerous. TC doesn't surprise me - it's just Microsoft doing business like it always has. What's scary though is the support that it's getting from other industry leaders. Unfortunately Microsoft's business model is being adopted by multinationals around the world.

bsalt
November 29th, 2007, 07:37 PM
I wonder, in 10 years, who will be the leading OS, and what they would have done to get there. If it is still Windows - it is through "bullying" Linux and Mac out (Trusted Computing). The only way I can really see Linux taking huge strides is more ease of use in the business server market. New users just don't like typing commands in a terminal - especially hardened Windows Server specialists. As for me, I love working on SBS03 and Linux, and typing commands is fun - I've found it to be faster than opening up a gui and using it, but nonetheless, GUI's determine an OS's importance. Linux is more popular now - with Compiz. Apple is popular with it's eye-candy. Windows is popular because of it's ease of use in the server realm - and because it's been around forever.

Linux needs to make more strides to really combat TC now. If businesses start switching to Linux and realize it's ease of use and potential, that will be more people able to say that Trusted Computing isn't neccessary.

Just a thought tho.

hogwartsnigel
November 30th, 2007, 02:44 AM
Bsalt: 4sure, the task in hand is to publicise, and increase the visibility of Linux. On another thread someone more eloquent than I identified it is the marketing which is winning the battle for M$. It is the responsability I humbly think for everyone utilising the marvel of any linux distro to promote and educate, and to do so objectively. People have been blindly following the commercial promotion of windows for years unaware of the better more appropriate alternatives. EVERYONE is responsible to share the knowledge, experience, benefits of Linux over winDOSE and Mac. Through this popularity will move commercial emphasis to better support and so on. Fear is generated from the unknown and everyone should be made aware of the viability of linux as an alternative to the status QUO.
Write letters to your pc user, computer monthly or whatever, EVERYONE write to game houses, your local paper, promote at work share with friends etc....it makes sense.

Japrufrock I agree completely, remember Santa Claus (Father Christmas, St. Nick) was originally detailed in green and white garb and was transformed by coca cola sponsorship in 1900's in New York if you want to know how far corporate manipulation can stretch into society....now do you want heart attack inducing saturated fries with that...LOL

Nigel

hogwartsnigel
November 30th, 2007, 02:51 AM
Linux Lizard: Full Nostalgic experience going on here...Ahhhhh.....mmmmmm the good old days trying to copy a tape of manic minor, changing the source (didn't know thats what it was at the time) to change variable parameters to get to the last screen. Remember the screeching tape sound ....pure music, Do you remember the Sinclar rubber padded zx81? 1mb ram fully utilised by 3d Monster Maze....I better stop the digression here but thanks for the memories LL.

Scotty Bones
December 3rd, 2007, 03:45 AM
I agree, and, odd as it may seem, that's part of why I think TC will fail. Putting all the control for user's desktops into the hands of large corporations means that those corporations now have a responsibility to support and account for those problems.

If Joe Average (or, better yet, Joe Large Business) wakes up one morning and finds that his personal computer (or 20+ workstations) suddenly no longer work because of a glitch in TC, and they call MS (or whomever) and are told "oops, sorry, you must now buy an OS upgrade / pay an unlocking fee / wait for our authentication servers to reboot," that guy is likely to go straight to the competitors.

It's also likely that a push towards TC would mean many more people buying hardware and software from overseas sources -- I don't think the Asian mobo market is too likely to hop on the TC bandwagon, especially not if there is a sudden niche market to corner. Which will mean more money for someone else.

Only 2 problems here
1) There would be no competitor to switch to. Everyone would be forced to use the technology.
a) SSSCA (Security Systems Standards and Certification Act)
b) CBDPTA (Consumer Broadband and Digital Television Promotion Act)
*thank God both were killed... but they are still trying.
2) from a US prospective: Importing or selling such non-compliant hardware would be illegal.(federal offense) :: If above legislation gets passed.

I haven't read the article posed here but i have read some info on the subject.
How do you think other countries in the world are going to react to US entities being able to access there systems and do as they please; how about the national security risk like remotely de-authorizing the encryption key within the fritz chip of enemy computers just prior to invasion. (just imagine the chaos that would cause. :) ). since you have to have an internet connection to verify the integrity of the keys in use, If you don't have internet access you won't be able to use a computer.
Oh, but wait, it gets better! This will give vender's the ability to enforce policy restrictions regarding the use of their software. For instance, lets say you have winamp and quicktime installed on your (win) system. Now, AOL could just up and decide it doesn't like apple anymore and say "Unless you remove QT from your system, you will not be able to run winamp.". I realize the example is a little extreme, but it would be possible.

A wide-sweeping move to this type of technology would almost undoubtedly cause a rift in the computing world. tpm and non-tpm. Not every country in world is going to want to jump on that boat, causing complete incompatibility between different parts of the world. No one in a non-tpm country is going to purchase a PC built in a country supporting tpm, effectively cutting OEM's off from potential market sources. However, I don't ever really see this technology becoming a de facto-standard in the public realm due to the large opportunists to abuse it, no matter how slowly it's introduced. Besides, It's run into plenty of public opposition. But if properly used (and I stress properly used) It could be a useful tool for businesses and governments for internal purposes. Like validating authorized remote access and what not.

just my short 2 cents

EDIT: Well, after reading the posted link, I see that most of this has already been addressed. Great Link.