Dell & Gobuntu, our chance to demand open source drivers?

[Sunnz]

As many of you may know Dell has been selling Ubuntu machines for a while, and will inevitably selling 7.10 soon.

Gobuntu, a distribution of Ubuntu containing only free (as in freedom) software, are to be released along with the 7.10 release.

Would this be the best chance to finally demand open source drivers? I have just submitted an idea on Dell's Idea Storm web-site: http://www.dellideastorm.com/article/show/74433/Support_Gobuntu_a_free_version_of_Ubuntu asking Gobuntu to be supported with free and open source drivers and firmware.

When the driver and hardware documentation are open, the possibilities are endless, it would in effect means any Linux distro are also supported, along side with any other OS: BSD, Solaris, etc.

What do you think?

[jrusso2]

Who wants to buy a computer where your hardware works crummy, and you have no ability to play and non-open format media.

Give up 3d gaming, DVD's, and music thats not .ogg.

No thanks all you open source purists can sit by yourself and watch your computers compile for entertainment. :)

[MetalMusicAddict]

While in theory its a great idea it wont happen. The vast majority of people want interoperability. This will at time mean working with things that are closed. Dell and Canonical both know this. We can push as much as we want for totally free everything but IMO its not gonna happen.

[Sunnz]

No as long as they made hardware support for it people can install propriety codecs or whatever. Being a purely free distro doesn't prevent you to install non-free stuff on it.

As far as I know of now on Ubuntu you got to install w32codecs yourself anyway, so I don't see why floss hardware support is a bad thing?

[bruce89]

no ability to play and non-open format media.

I thought that all the gstreamer plugins are under free licences - http://webcvs.freedesktop.org/gstreamer/gst-plugins-ugly/LICENSE_readme?view=markup

w32codecs are for eejits.

[Lord Illidan]

I am resisting the urge to post a very angry post in response to :


Who wants to buy a computer where your hardware works crummy, and you have no ability to play and non-open format media.

Give up 3d gaming, DVD's, and music thats not .ogg.

No thanks all you open source purists can sit by yourself and watch your computers compile for entertainment.

Linux was built on open source principles. The very reason that your hardware works crummy with opensource is that manufacturers don't release their drivers under an open source friendly license.

If Dell supported Gobuntu, it would increase the pressure on device manufacturers to release OSS drivers. Thus, this would enable 3D gaming.

[Wiebelhaus]

Who wants to buy a computer where your hardware works crummy, and you have no ability to play and non-open format media.

Give up 3d gaming, DVD's, and music thats not .ogg.

No thanks all you open source purists can sit by yourself and watch your computers compile for entertainment. :)


lol , that was hardcore.

Yea , I really don't see the difference whether Nvidia wants me to agree to some crap i never read anyway or not , BUT I do care what Microsoft and GPL say , As far as drivers i could care less , on the other hand if the fully open drivers worked as well as the proprietary ones , then I would use the open drivers BEFORE even looking at the alternative.

But right now on 5 machines all running 7.04 and a few Dual booting with either windows or another GNU/Linux distro I'm using all open drivers.

Much thanks to the folks who put work into that , It's greatly appreciated.

[julian67]

I thought that all the gstreamer plugins are under free licences - http://webcvs.freedesktop.org/gstreamer/gst-plugins-ugly/LICENSE_readme?view=markup

w32codecs are for eejits.

Some of the gstreamer plugins are in universe and multiverse due to distribution problems. A free license doesn't make something distributable everywhere because different countries have different laws , software patents and encryption laws are good examples of this.

And there are plenty of people who don't use gstreamer, it's definitely not everyone's idea of a great multimedia backend.

[Sunnz]

Some of the gstreamer plugins are in universe and multiverse due to distribution problems. A free license doesn't make something distributable everywhere because different countries have different laws , software patents and encryption laws are good examples of this.

And there are plenty of people who don't use gstreamer, it's definitely not everyone's idea of a great multimedia backend.
But does it matter? People can install non-free stuff on Gobuntu at their own choice, which you need to do on Ubuntu to get things to do anyway.

The point to ask for support for Gobuntu is to actually demand vendors to actually support it.

Look the whole vendor to consumer relationship is dodgy these days. They don't really take demands from end users, but computer manufacturers like Dell.

[jrusso2]

But does it matter? People can install non-free stuff on Gobuntu at their own choice, which you need to do on Ubuntu to get things to do anyway.

The point to ask for support for Gobuntu is to actually demand vendors to actually support it.

Look the whole vendor to consumer relationship is dodgy these days. They don't really take demands from end users, but computer manufacturers like Dell.

If your going to add non-free stuff to it then why bother to use Gobuntu. That's only for the extreme purist who refuses to run anything not extremely Free.

And the gstreamer plugins would not qualify.

[Sunnz]

If your going to add non-free stuff to it then why bother to use Gobuntu. That's only for the extreme purist who refuses to run anything not extremely Free.

And the gstreamer plugins would not qualify.
Drivers...

[jrusso2]

Drivers...

Dell is already pressuring their suppliers to provide drivers.

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=NTkxOA

They also got a winmodem driver made

http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS7536907294.html

http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/91429/index.html

[Sunnz]

I think there is a huge misunderstand from people and this is very disappointing.

Being a purely free distro does not disallow you to install non-free codecs or software. The normal Ubuntu does not come with non-free codecs anyway, it is not that much different.

Second, Dell is a hardware manufacturer. They sell pre-assembled computers. This have absolutely nothing to do with codecs. The Ubuntu computer they currently ship with does not come with non-free codecs, Gobuntu doesn't make a difference here. And this is a software issue, it is patents or what not held by the codecs/DVD guys, Dell can't play much in here, and it is not the intend to solve any problem by requesting Dell to support Gobuntu anyway!!!

What I am asking here is hardware support, if it is a wireless card, provide a free wireless driver, if it is a 3D card, then provide a free graphics card driver. Demand the vendors to provide documentation to support this distro, do whatever make things work.

It is not to say software support is not important, but things need to be done one at a time. Get proper hardware support first, then get everything else to work.

[jrusso2]

Read the links I posted. Using gobuntu would eliminate a lot of not free enough things already in Ubuntu and would make it harder for new users to add them.

There is no reason to pressure Dell to use Gobuntu when Ubuntu is free enough.

They are already working with ATI and other companies to provide open drivers.

Why do you want to make them use Gobuntu? I bet less then one percent of Ubuntu users will switch to Gobuntu.

[Sunnz]

What are the "not free enough" things you are talking about and why would it be "hard" to install?

The reason is to provide free drivers for the hardware, effectively supporting every distro there is and even OS other than Linux, e.g. BSD. Free drivers are always good, it means people can fix bugs, improve security, and what not.

If that's the case, all the power to them. However from your first link it seems like they don't care if the driver for ATi is free or not.

As I said for proper hardware support. Gobuntu is Ubuntu, you would still need to install the codecs, libdvdcss, or what not, just like if you are using Ubuntu. You can easily just apt-get ubuntu-desktop anyway so my question would be, why not? And no please don't tell me in some vague manner that it is somehow "hard to use".

[Buffalo Soldier]

Why do you want to make them use Gobuntu? I bet less then one percent of Ubuntu users will switch to Gobuntu.

Make it one percent plus one then :)

It's the concept of Free Software and GPL that has brought us this far. The only way to guarantee that we won't return to the monopolistic-one-OS world is by going all the way.

No harm in enjoying the cozy relationship we have with DELL and other FOSS-friendly hardware manufacturer. But at the same time we should not stop fight for our consumer rights.

Free Software is not just an "ideal". It's a wonderful system desiqn to avoid:
- one entity monopolising a product/market,
- the destructive splintering like what happened to myriad of non-interoperable UNIX systems,
- hardware manufacturer from eroding the rights of consumers, and
- non-accessibility of our own data.

[Sunnz]

And I bet 99% of Ubuntu users will be glad if Dell supports Gobuntu by pursuing hardware vendors to provide free drivers.

[smartboyathome]

I would rather use Ubuntu than Gobuntu. Reason: the open-source hardware is very limited, and if you install non-free stuff, it become Ubuntu again. Also, I am not one who is wanting to be totally free of proprietary.

[p_quarles]

What are the "not free enough" things you are talking about and why would it be "hard" to install?

The reason is to provide free drivers for the hardware, effectively supporting every distro there is and even OS other than Linux, e.g. BSD. Free drivers are always good, it means people can fix bugs, improve security, and what not.

If that's the case, all the power to them. However from your first link it seems like they don't care if the driver for ATi is free or not.

As I said for proper hardware support. Gobuntu is Ubuntu, you would still need to install the codecs, libdvdcss, or what not, just like if you are using Ubuntu. You can easily just apt-get ubuntu-desktop anyway so my question would be, why not? And no please don't tell me in some vague manner that it is somehow "hard to use".
The drivers that are distributed with Gobuntu -- or any other operating system -- only exist within that operating system. How would only distributing FOSS drivers have any impact on your ability to switch to another distro?

The important thing is that the hardware itself is Linux-ready, and Dell already builds the Ubuntu systems with widely-compatible hardware. I don't own one, but I'm willing to bet that you could easily install any Linux distro, any BSD, or any version of Windows on a Dell Ubuntu system. Chances are, you can also install Gobuntu on it, if that's what you really want to do.

Give it a shot.

[bruce89]

Diff between ubuntu-desktop and gobuntu-desktop


--- ubuntu 2007-10-15 18:26:07.000000000 +0100
+++ gobuntu 2007-10-15 18:25:45.000000000 +0100
@@ -1,4 +1,4 @@
-ubuntu-desktop
+gobuntu-desktop
Depends: acpi
Depends: acpi-support
Depends: acpid
@@ -59,6 +59,7 @@
Depends: gnome-themes
Depends: gnome-utils
Depends: gnome-volume-manager
+ Depends: gobuntu-artwork-usplash
Depends: gstreamer0.10-alsa
Depends: gstreamer0.10-esd
Depends: gstreamer0.10-plugins-base-apps
@@ -114,7 +115,6 @@
Depends: unzip
Depends: update-notifier
Depends: usplash
- Depends: usplash-theme-ubuntu
Depends: vino
Depends: wodim
Depends: x-ttcidfont-conf
@@ -129,7 +129,6 @@
Depends: yelp
Depends: zenity
Depends: zip
- Recommends: app-install-data-commercial
Recommends: apport-gtk
Recommends: avahi-autoipd
Recommends: bluez-cups
@@ -185,7 +184,6 @@
Recommends: powernowd
powersaved
Recommends: pxljr
- Recommends: restricted-manager
Recommends: rhythmbox
Recommends: scim
Recommends: scim-gtk2-immodule

[sophtpaw]

what happened to gnewsense?

[Sunnz]

I would rather use Ubuntu than Gobuntu. Reason: the open-source hardware is very limited.

Sigh...

That's the very reason to ask Dell to support Gobuntu, to get proper free driver support.

[Sunnz]

The drivers that are distributed with Gobuntu -- or any other operating system -- only exist within that operating system. How would only distributing FOSS drivers have any impact on your ability to switch to another distro?

It would mean that the documentation would have been opened and/or since the source code of drivers are available they can be ported to other OS. That's how some of the wireless drivers in OpenBSD were written, they took write documentation from the source code of Linux drivers, and wrote their own driver using the documentation, effectively porting the driver.

[bruce89]

Sigh...

That's the very reason to ask Dell to support Gobuntu, to get proper free driver support.

My Dellbuntu works with only one non-free thing (ipw3945).

[p_quarles]

It would mean that the documentation would have been opened and/or since the source code of drivers are available they can be ported to other OS. That's how some of the wireless drivers in OpenBSD were written, they took write documentation from the source code of Linux drivers, and wrote their own driver using the documentation, effectively porting the driver.
Okay. Again, the hardware Dell uses already has drivers ported to all modern operating systems (except maybe OS X, which is a different story). So, again, how would this pressure any hardware vendor to release their specs? The OSS community already has the specs. This just makes no sense to me.
:confused:

[Ireclan]

I fail to see the corolation between Dell using Gobuntu and the increased prevelancy of free drivers...Someone want to clue me into what this guy's point is?

[Sunnz]

Okay. Again, the hardware Dell uses already has drivers ported to all modern operating systems (except maybe OS X, which is a different story). So, again, how would this pressure any hardware vendor to release their specs? The OSS community already has the specs. This just makes no sense to me.
:confused:

So where's the documentation for 128MB NVIDIA GeForce 8300GS and 256MB NVIDIA GeForce 8600GT-DDR3?

[drbob07]

In my opinion. Having a totaly open source OS will turn out to be rubbish.

The fact of the matter is, there is very little (if any?) commercial software that is only available *for linux*.

Think about it... why do you buy a Mac? Video editing, photo editing, shiny plastic, and, the wonderful Boot Camp, or Parallels.

Why would you get a Windows PC? Software available almost anywhere you go. 3D Gaming at its finest.

Why do you install Linux? To stick it to the man...

However, what good is "sticking it to the man", if you can't do anything functional with your computer.

As post #2 said... why would you give up gaming, watching movies, or listening to non .OGG music. If Linux takes away all the fun of a computer, what is the point in having one? To browse the web with very limited flash capabilities (ala Gnash). To send and receive e-mails? That's a mere 10% of what a computer can do.

As much as I hate to be a pessimist. We need some non-free software on our machines. The rest of the world is to focused on money to stop and say "Oh, let's release some source code"


Also, the rest of the world operates in non-free software. If I burned .ogg files to a disc, I have friends who would probably consider them viruses. They would have no clue what a codec is. There MP3 player just "plays" music. It doesn't play these foreign songs.


We need to be interoperable with all OS's, not put ourselves on a little free island and hope the rest of the world comes and joins us.

However, if Dell did start releasing drivers ala open source, their suppliers would likely follow suit. Then the competitors of the suppliers would open source their drivers, just to compete. Then as drivers became open source, certain software would also become open source.

A chain reaction needs to happen, but it can't happen if we take such a drastic step as a fully open-source OS.

IMHO, the restricted-driver system is a much better plan.

[Sunnz]

In my opinion. Having a totaly open source OS will turn out to be rubbish.

The fact of the matter is, there is very little (if any?) commercial software that is only available *for linux*.

Think about it... why do you buy a Mac? Video editing, photo editing, shiny plastic, and, the wonderful Boot Camp, or Parallels.

Why would you get a Windows PC? Software available almost anywhere you go. 3D Gaming at its finest.

Why do you install Linux? To stick it to the man...

However, what good is "sticking it to the man", if you can't do anything functional with your computer.

As post #2 said... why would you give up gaming, watching movies, or listening to non .OGG music. If Linux takes away all the fun of a computer, what is the point in having one? To browse the web with very limited flash capabilities (ala Gnash). To send and receive e-mails? That's a mere 10% of what a computer can do.

As much as I hate to be a pessimist. We need some non-free software on our machines. The rest of the world is to focused on money to stop and say "Oh, let's release some source code"


Also, the rest of the world operates in non-free software. If I burned .ogg files to a disc, I have friends who would probably consider them viruses. They would have no clue what a codec is. There MP3 player just "plays" music. It doesn't play these foreign songs.


We need to be interoperable with all OS's, not put ourselves on a little free island and hope the rest of the world comes and joins us.

However, if Dell did start releasing drivers ala open source, their suppliers would likely follow suit. Then the competitors of the suppliers would open source their drivers, just to compete. Then as drivers became open source, certain software would also become open source.

A chain reaction needs to happen, but it can't happen if we take such a drastic step as a fully open-source OS.

IMHO, the restricted-driver system is a much better plan.
http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=3537672&postcount=13

[p_quarles]

So where's the documentation for 128MB NVIDIA GeForce 8300GS and 256MB NVIDIA GeForce 8600GT-DDR3?
Nvidia has released drivers for Linux and BSD. It would be nice if they released the specs, but it's not going to happen just because Michael Dell tries to "force" them to. Nvidia can simply say, "hey, we're already providing you with drivers free of charge. Use those."

Now, if Dell were to switch to AMD video cards after those specs are released, that might actually have a snowball's chance of getting nvidia to reconsider. Dell trying to sell a half-working OS is not going to have any impact whatsoever, except to lose sales for Dell.

[Sunnz]

Nvidia has released drivers for Linux and BSD. It would be nice if they released the specs, but it's not going to happen just because Michael Dell tries to "force" them to. Nvidia can simply say, "hey, we're already providing you with drivers free of charge. Use those."

Now, if Dell were to switch to AMD video cards after those specs are released, that might actually have a snowball's chance of getting nvidia to reconsider. Dell trying to sell a half-working OS is not going to have any impact whatsoever, except to lose sales for Dell.

I don't think selling a half-working OS is anybody's idea of supporting an OS. The point is to increase demand for nVidia (and perhaps other vendors) to provide free drivers.

[p_quarles]

I don't think selling a half-working OS is anybody's idea of supporting an OS. The point is to increase demand for nVidia (and perhaps other vendors) to provide free drivers.
Yes, I understand that. What I don't understand is why you believe that Dell is in a position to "demand" that nvidia do anything more than provide working drivers for its products? What is in this for Dell? What's in it for nvidia? Why would either of those parties be the least bit interested in a business deal which would benefit neither of them?

[Eddie Wilson]

In my opinion. Having a totaly open source OS will turn out to be rubbish.

The fact of the matter is, there is very little (if any?) commercial software that is only available *for linux*.

Think about it... why do you buy a Mac? Video editing, photo editing, shiny plastic, and, the wonderful Boot Camp, or Parallels.

Why would you get a Windows PC? Software available almost anywhere you go. 3D Gaming at its finest.

Why do you install Linux? To stick it to the man...

However, what good is "sticking it to the man", if you can't do anything functional with your computer.

As post #2 said... why would you give up gaming, watching movies, or listening to non .OGG music. If Linux takes away all the fun of a computer, what is the point in having one? To browse the web with very limited flash capabilities (ala Gnash). To send and receive e-mails? That's a mere 10% of what a computer can do.

As much as I hate to be a pessimist. We need some non-free software on our machines. The rest of the world is to focused on money to stop and say "Oh, let's release some source code"


Also, the rest of the world operates in non-free software. If I burned .ogg files to a disc, I have friends who would probably consider them viruses. They would have no clue what a codec is. There MP3 player just "plays" music. It doesn't play these foreign songs.


We need to be interoperable with all OS's, not put ourselves on a little free island and hope the rest of the world comes and joins us.

However, if Dell did start releasing drivers ala open source, their suppliers would likely follow suit. Then the competitors of the suppliers would open source their drivers, just to compete. Then as drivers became open source, certain software would also become open source.

A chain reaction needs to happen, but it can't happen if we take such a drastic step as a fully open-source OS.

IMHO, the restricted-driver system is a much better plan.

Have you ever used an totally free operating system? I'm talking about free as in freedom and not as in free beer. I would say that 90% of what you can do in a loaded down non-free os can be done in a free os. Restricted drivers are just what they say they are. RESTRICTED. Its really a sad state of affairs. I myself use restricted drivers. I'm gonna try to see what can do with a totally free system, without all the bloat added. A person doesn't have to give up their non-free distro, just try a totally free distro also. I bet you can do anything you need to do.
Thanks, Eddie

[keyboardashtray]

I don't think some here get the point:

Sunnz is talking about having Dell support Gobuntu by selling hardware that is completely compatible with a 100 percent free OS. Meaning it can run Gobuntu (or gNewSense, etc.).

This doesn't mean you can't run proprietary drivers and codecs. And it doesn't mean you can't run vanilla Ubuntu. Hell, you could run Windows for all it matters. Hardware that is fully compatible with libre/free software is fully compatible with the closed/proprietary software, but it doesn't work the other way around.

It's a matter of Dell building their desktops with free-compatible hardware. Why would anyone here, using Ubuntu, have a problem with that? I mean, you don't have to be a purist to respect at least the principles behind that.

I'm surprised some people here are so hostile to the "purists". It's like a vegetarian refusing to eat vegan food, it makes absolutely no sense, and it's hypocritical in a bizarre way.

I don't think anyone is saying replace Ubuntu with Gobuntu, simply make the hardware fully compatible.

[Sunnz]

Thanks keyboardashtray for helping explaining the idea. :)

Might I add to the point of that the idea is not to request Gobuntu to replace Ubuntu, but simply support Gobuntu - as long as Gobuntu works then Ubuntu automatically works as well, there are not extra work to make Ubuntu to work.

Dell can offer both choices when you customise a computer... as far as I know of, even for WinPC, you have a choice between XP and Vista anyway, so asking the choice of Gobuntu and Ubuntu isn't an unreasonable request.

[Sasank]

I completely agree. Thats the beauty of a true 100% Free Software supporting hardware.

If it can work with Gobuntu, it can work with any other OS, free or non-free.

[Frak]

Very soon there will be at least 1 of each peice of hardware that has an OSS driver.
Intel - Network, Audio, Graphics, etc.
RaLink - Network: Wifi, Ground
ATi - High Quality Graphics

[tehhaxorr]

I'm not an OSS purist at all, i just want my computer to do what i want it to, Linux does that.

[removed]