How they(=hackers, gurus) expect us(=newcomers, newbies) to behave in forums[link]

[offline]

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

I am warning you, it's hard!

[kerry_s]

needs to be a sticky.

[Seisen]

I second the sticky and I wish sometimes more people would follow this but the world is not perfect.

[nest]

its so (SO) true.

sticky.

[Duck2006]

It sould be a must read.

[Malibu Illusion]

This forum is care-bear land to how the majority of more efficient and knowledgable boards operate. I guess these rules and etiquette standards are relaxed here due to it being aimed at absolute beginners.

[clancymf]

This forum is care-bear land to how the majority of more efficient and knowledgable boards operate. I guess these rules and etiquette standards are relaxed here due to it being aimed at absolute beginners.

"More efficient and knowledgable boards"... why the insults? I have been using these boards religiously over the last few weeks and it has been the sole reason I have stayed afloat since switching to linux.

[Dr Small]

I second the sticky and I wish sometimes more people would follow this but the world is not perfect.
+1

[quinnten83]

well, I agree (even though i admittedly didn't read it al) to some degree.
thing is, hackers also sometimes forget that some people just are not that technical.
I have users at my work who will ask me the most idiotically simple question about the use of their computer. Granted some of them are lazy, but some simply do not even know what the problem is, let alone looking for a solution.
internet is big and vast, you will meet all sorts. If you can't live with that, than don't offer any kind of support.

but, hey, I haven't read the entire thing yet....

[quinnten83]

"More efficient and knowledgable boards"... why the insults? I have been using these boards religiously over the last few weeks and it has been the sole reason I have stayed afloat since switching to linux.


Dude,
has your linux experience been that bad?
Come to think of it, mine hasn't been a cakewalk either.
But then again, I have learned so much since then :)

[nooby]

Yes very good suggestions but maybe should have a short summary first so the too impatient learn at least something? I've did many of the Stupid things and still do but if other Stupids are like me they have no patience to read the whole of it or even understand it. But AFAIK you did a good job for someone on the level of understanding you expect.

[clancymf]

Dude,
has your linux experience been that bad?
Come to think of it, mine hasn't been a cakewalk either.
But then again, I have learned so much since then :)

Actually, its been quite great but my brain seems to be tired with all the many hours of reading. I just feel I have soo much to learn (i knew nothing about linux) and have come across a few problems that this boards have solved and continue to solve. Which is why I took a little offense to the comment that this board wasnt knowledgable.

[OldTimeTech]

well, I agree (even though i admittedly didn't read it al) to some degree.
thing is, hackers also sometimes forget that some people just are not that technical.
I have users at my work who will ask me the most idiotically simple question about the use of their computer. Granted some of them are lazy, but some simply do not even know what the problem is, let alone looking for a solution.
internet is big and vast, you will meet all sorts. If you can't live with that, than don't offer any kind of support.
.

I agree with some of your above....especially the part about "but some simply do not even know what the problem is, etc."

And even though I can tear a computer apart, build a new one from the ground up and make most software work when it doesn't want too....I can't seem to learn how to program my own VCR and I've been working on that a long long time...LOL!!!

I love these forums...first you learn from others problems, you have very very relaxed rules here and best of all everyone helps everyone...too bad the rest of the world can't work the same way.

[mivo]

There is, of course, also the option for the sensitive expert not to read a forum labeled "Absolute Beginners". ;)

[fwojciec]

To be perfectly honest when I started using linux and Ubuntu I mostly used this forum as a repository of already made solutions that were easily adaptable to my particular problems. I would say that 99% of questions people regularly ask here have already been answered countless times and are most easily solved using the forum search function (and Google if that doesn't work). I have only really started posting here when I felt that I could help other people with their problems... I don't think I have ever posted a support request here at all - even though I started as a complete linux noob.

So I agree with that article because in my opinion it describes the correct way to go about problem solving in general - and not only because "hackers"/"gurus" are lazy people that can't be bothered to help "newbies", but because actually trying to figure things out for oneself using the already available resources is simply a far superior way of learning linux in the long run...

[Lord Illidan]

I doubt that this forum is the most knowledgeable. Some of us, me included just have answered some questions so many times that it becomes by rote. Answering newbie questions is not too hard. I think you'll find that the gentoo or LFS forums are more knowledgeable. However, as regards most helpful, well, I think this qualifies.

Nice link btw.

[aysiu]

Yes very good suggestions but maybe should have a short summary first so the too impatient learn at least something? Sure. Here it is:
http://ubuntucat.wordpress.com/2007/08/06/getting-the-best-help-on-linux-forums/

[tehet]

Unfortunately the original author doesn't always take his own advise to hart.

[ShadowDeath]

Very Nice Article :)
Gj mate...

[BrendanM]

I've seen this before. The advice it offers is generally good, but the tone is so arrogant and condescending. I find it rather obnoxious. If you're too elite to be bothered with ordinary people's questions, just don't read them or answer them.

[Ireclan]

I've seen this before. The advice it offers is generally good, but the tone is so arrogant and condescending. I find it rather obnoxious. If you're too elite to be bothered with ordinary people's questions, just don't read them or answer them.

+1

[fuscia]

tl/dr.

here's what i do...

search these forums
search google
ask

i search these forums first because it makes sense to me to get an ubuntu specific answer, if i can. experts, in any field, often forget they ever had to learn some of the basics and all of us have learned things subconsciously, so it's frequently difficult to understand how someone else could not know something that seems so drunken child obvious. not every newb question is going to be a source of innocent wonder. it's unreasonable to expect someone, who doesn't know a damn thing about linux, to have any skill in forming a question about it. it's not the job of the student to figure out wtf the teacher is talking about. it's the teacher's job to lead the student to an understanding.

[OldTimeTech]

woohoo well said fuscia!!!!

[Frak]

Nice post Fuscia.

:)

[loudnlownoma]

Nice post Fuscia.

:)

I have to agree. Kinda the same feeling I got while reading it. Yes, it is nice to see posts with loads of information and everything formatted just right and all, but some of the other stuff in there was a little too much. Makes you wonder how much of the article was written from experience on the writing end of those questions...

[Lord Illidan]

tl/dr.

here's what i do...

search these forums
search google
ask

i search these forums first because it makes sense to me to get an ubuntu specific answer, if i can. experts, in any field, often forget they ever had to learn some of the basics and all of us have learned things subconsciously, so it's frequently difficult to understand how someone else could not know something that seems so drunken child obvious. not every newb question is going to be a source of innocent wonder. it's unreasonable to expect someone, who doesn't know a damn thing about linux, to have any skill in forming a question about it. it's not the job of the student to figure out wtf the teacher is talking about. it's the teacher's job to lead the student to an understanding.

Yes, that's true. And I personally have no problems with answering these types of questions. However what really irritates me is that some do absolutely no research at all. When I was a newb, I used to search for myself. If mp3s are not working with Ubuntu, it doesn't take a huge leap of the imagination to type mp3 ubuntu in the search field of the forum or ask google.

I first search google, then I search the forums, then I try and experiment based on what I found out, if not answered or I didn't find anything, I will ask. True, I have about 4 years of experience with Linux, but I've been using these tactics from the very beginning.

[popch]

I think we should recognize that there are forums which cater to different kinds of people.

In a forum where 'top experts' like to exchange thoughts on how to push the envelope, I would find it definitely rude to post beginners questions or plainly stupid things like 'why is the quit command placed in the file menu when the file does not want to quit'.

Then there are forums which are meant to be helpful to beginners, advanced users and/or anything in between. Such places should be quite tolerant of green beginners who do not even know what to ask in order to get started.

It would be a rare case indeed where a forum tried to accomodate the full spectrum. I do not think that it would succeed at doing so.

[Lord Illidan]

Please note : Then there are forums which are meant to be helpful to beginners, advanced users and/or anything in between. Such places should be quite tolerant of green beginners who do not even know what to ask in order to get started.

I believe I speak for the majority when I say that we are quite tolerant of green beginners, however, we encourage them to do some things for themselves. Speaking for myself, I never say : Do not ask this or RTFM. If it's an easy fix, I might hand him a link straight away, or else just point him to a google search. If it's a bit complicated, I will go to walkthrough mode.

[popch]

I believe I speak for the majority when I say that we are quite tolerant of green beginners, however, we encourage them to do some things for themselves. Speaking for myself, I never say : Do not ask this or RTFM. If it's an easy fix, I might hand him a link straight away, or else just point him to a google search. If it's a bit complicated, I will go to walkthrough mode.

I believe so, too. Some times, I have great respect for the constraint some of the members apply in calmly repeating the 'obvious' time and again. Thank you very much, indeed. I could not do that.

[fuscia]

when i first started using linux, it was not uncommon for me to be more confused after reading the man page than before. what i've often found missing, in open source projects, are the step 1s. this is where i used to get lost, all the time. when you don't know something, at all, you don't know if the problem is complex, or just something stupid, like "is your monitor plugged in?"

(this calls for an appearence by the 'linux deer'.)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v342/unknownentity/linuxdeer2.jpg

[Lord Illidan]

Quick! Shoot it!
http://abyss.hubbe.net/jeremiah/gallery/gfx/covers/jtv/lg/ep/s1/110-shotgun-lg.jpg

[Frak]

when i first started using linux, it was not uncommon for me to be more confused after reading the man page than before. what i've often found missing, in open source projects, are the step 1s. this is where i used to get lost, all the time. when you don't know something, at all, you don't know if the problem is complex, or just something stupid, like "is your monitor plugged in?"

(this calls for an appearence by the 'linux deer'.)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v342/unknownentity/linuxdeer2.jpg
:lolflag:

A bit off topic, but I always wondered why people use guns when all you need is a vehicle doing 40 with birghts and a blaring horn.

[fuscia]

A bit off topic, but I always wondered why people use guns when all you need is a vehicle doing 40 with birghts and a blaring horn.

these days, deer are made better than cars.

[Frak]

these days, deer are made better than cars.
But you'll never miss ;)