Microsoft's Ballmer Reportedly Threatens Red Hat

[FranMichaels]

We've spent a lot of money licensing patents, when people come to us and say, "Hey, this commercial piece of software violates our patent, our intellectual propery, we'll either get a court judgment or we'll pay a big check. And we are going to -- I think it is important that the Open Source products also have an obligation to participate in the same way in the intellectual property regime. - Steve Ballmer

It applies to more than RedHat it turns out...
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20071008205138925

I don't speak for everyone.
I switched to Linux and use Free and Open Source software, one big reason was to escape from Microsoft and its platform...

But they just won't leave people alone. :twisted:

I've changed my opinion about that EU think tank that recommended to unbundle OS and PC.

"Windows has reached 35% of the price of a new computer."
http://www.cybersource.com.au/users/conz/why_the_unbundling_windows_sceptics_are_wrong.html

Sounds like a good discount :)

:lolflag: I'm counting on the EU now, though I live in the US. I hope they stay away from software patents, and make their anti-trust ruling effective! Enough is enough...

[BigSilly]

I think if MS don't step off, it'll end in tears for them.

[Tomosaur]

Oh Ballmer, you are one wild and crazy guy!

[EdThaSlayer]

Microsoft, always trying to find dirty ways to make money. Oh well, the alliance of Google, Sun Microsystem and IBM will get crush Microsoft someday.

[jc87]

I´m going to throw a chair at that guy:)

[Dixon Bainbridge]

Ballmer is all fart and no ****, frankly.

[-grubby]

what a jerk

[p_quarles]

One intriguing part of the writeup at GrokLaw was PJ's suggestion that because the UK does not have software patents, but does have pretty strict slander laws, the first lawsuit might actually see MS as the defendant. :)

[SunnyRabbiera]

seriously Redhat did sign a deal with MS and MS should respect it, even though Redhat did not sign the IP deal they at least signed one half of the deal that linspire and novell did...
Steve Ballmer = idiot

[cwhitehouse]

Develeopers! Develeopers! Develeopers! Develeopers! Develeopers!

[popch]

This is supposed to be news? It's Old Hat.

Anyone knows that if it reportedly exists, Ballmer Reportedly Threatens it.

Should have put that thread into the 'Religion' thread in the Backyard.

[fynlam]

I would love to see all Open Source innovation happen on top of Windows.Ballmer

http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=810

[FuturePilot]

Develeopers! Develeopers! Develeopers! Develeopers! Develeopers!

You beat me to it! I was going to say that:lolflag:

[regomodo]

Ballmer stfu and go and drink some more extra strength coffee for our amusement. It's what you do best

[Nano Geek]

Don't sue me bro!

[dca]

We might want to be nice to him. Of course his plans of world domination failed miserably thanks to the EU. I just chalk that up to: at least courts over there aren't afraid to ask tech-types for any extra info they may be missing. Unfortunately in the US, the courts & the gov are still patting themselves on the back for what a bang-up job they did in '02 from keeping MS from becoming a monopoly. Heck, now things are worse over here...

[Dragonbite]

Sounds like the drums of war are beginning, either that or Ballmer is being a saber-rattling again!

http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2200717/microsoft-sharpens-aims-patent (http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2200717/microsoft-sharpens-aims-patent)

RedHat should be able to overcome this. They have not been making bad moves and if anything, are accused of not making enough moves.

Oh, I love the tech industry..so many fireworks! :popcorn:

I would love to see RedHat and other Linux companiese sue Microsoft for Libel or something since they are making outrageous attacks knowing full well (if) when they are lying!

[tech9]

Aww Geez....
Microsoft is ridiculous...
Someone should sue them - they copy everyone else

[Kingsley]

This has me wondering...

Who would win in a free-for-all fight? Steve Ballmer or Richard Stallman.

[Dragonbite]

Interesting observation.. doesn't make it right though.


Mark Taylor, president of the Open Source Consortium, agreed with Rosenthal and described Microsoft's tactics in damning terms.

"We say show us the patents," he told vnunet.com. "This has been the strategy against open source all along. It's precisely the same tactics as SCO used: implied threats and mafia techniques. This is just FUD. It's smoke and mirrors. "

Taylor added that Microsoft is sorely mistaken if it hopes that its actions will slow down the spread of open source.

Laurant Lachal, open source research director at research firm Ovum, said: " Microsoft is too easy a bogeyman in this kind of situation.

"It is true that Microsoft is using FUD to attack open source, but the software industry has traditionally used FUD as a tactic. It is a normal way of doing business. IBM started it back when it was the powerhouse."

[Dixon Bainbridge]

"IBM started it back when it was the powerhouse."

When it was a powerhouse? When? Its the biggest company on the planet. When did it stop being a powerhouse?

Anyway, all this FUD smacks of desperation. Someone is crapping themselves in Redmond.

[smartboyathome]

I can't wait for Microsoft to start suing KDE because "it implemented a start-like button".

[bobbybobington]

looking at the developers developers developers vid I would say ballmer is quite the formidable opponent. Judging from his half-skipping legwork, he probably has some boxing training. Richard stallman on the other hand would be able to fend off any of his blows with ease (http://www.oreillynet.com/oscon2002/graphics/jc5_01.jpg) . Stallman may also be a jujitsu guru. The crazy beard, lower center of gravity, what ancient training gives the gnu gnu levitation powers? It all fits together. Stallman would simply use ballmer's own excessive energy and offense against him.

[Dragonbite]

"IBM started it back when it was the powerhouse."

When it was a powerhouse? When? Its the biggest company on the planet. When did it stop being a powerhouse?

Anyway, all this FUD smacks of desperation. Someone is crapping themselves in Redmond.That's what I'm thinking. In spite of them "gaining" in the server market on Linux they are seeing Windows Vista flub, Linux getting notice on the desktop (Dell, Lenovo, HP), Apple getting 300% more positive press time than Microsoft, OpenOffice getting better and Google eating them on the internet.

Unfortunately, things aren't going to get better.. until it gets a lot uglier! I hope RedHat just gives them the silent treatment and focuses on their appeasing their customers instead. They're a smart company.

[Dragonbite]

looking at the developers developers developers vid I would say ballmer is quite the formidable opponent. Judging from his half-skipping legwork, he probably has some boxing training. Richard stallman on the other hand would be able to fend off any of his blows with ease (http://www.oreillynet.com/oscon2002/graphics/jc5_01.jpg) . Stallman may also be a jujitsu guru. The crazy beard, lower center of gravity, what ancient training gives the gnu gnu levitation powers? It all fits together. Stallman would simply use ballmer's own excessive energy and offense against him.You know... that's almost what's happening in the industry! Microsoft is hurting themselves every time they open their mouths (and try to be forceful)!!

[euler_fan]

The only meaningful threat is one that can be backed up. At this point, MS has threatened and the open source community by and large (especially RH) seems to have blown them off.

Every day MS does not reveal the patents is another day they prove what they have is not meaningful.

Then again, given the fragmented nature of open source, you have to wonder if they realize even if they did have legitimate patents they could never effectively stop hemorrhaging technology.

[smartboyathome]

I hate it when microsoft does this. It gives my mom something to tease Linux about (she sides with microsoft, as they provide money towards schools, especially in my state [yes, I live in Washington!]).

[sefs]

This all reminds me of the barbarians at the gates of the roman empire.

[Dragonbite]

This all reminds me of the barbarians at the gates of the roman empire.I wasn't there...

Yeah, I hate when this gives fodder to the nay-sayers. I remember being in an Mac-orientated store when the SCO thing came out and the smug "Linux is going down" tone in the guys voice.

I wonder if he's still in business...

[Ireclan]

I'm with others who think this is just the blatherings of a windbag. It doesn't help, though, when companies like Novell (and soon Red Hat) sell out. I honestly wonder if they know something we don't, or they're just your typical spineless business.

[Dragonbite]

I'm with others who think this is just the blatherings of a windbag. It doesn't help, though, when companies like Novell (and soon Red Hat) sell out. I honestly wonder if they know something we don't, or they're just your typical spineless business.You think RedHat will sell out? Even if I'm not impressed by RHEL (via CentOS), their business standings have been consistant and logical, I think.

[Ireclan]

You think RedHat will sell out?

According to the article, they're getting ready to.

[Ya'akov]

Microsoft 'evidence' turns against them
By Staff Writer
16 May, 2007

The claim by Microsoft earlier this week that open source infringes 235 patents, has taken an interesting turn.

Steve Ballmer cited an independent report published last year that he said claimed that open source Linux violates 228 patents. The author, Dan Ravicher, said that the report "actually proves the opposite of what they claim it does," and that it did not claim that open source software faces legal problems.

In the report, Ravicher sought to stress the difference between potential and actual patent violation. This difference has been ignored in Microsoft's reference to the report.

"Open source faces no more, if not less, legal risk than proprietary software," Ravicher told technology news site eWeek. "The market needs to understand that the study Microsoft is citing actually proves the opposite of what they claim it does."

"There is no reason to believe that GNU/Linux has any greater risk of infringing patents than Windows, Unix-based or any other functionally similar operating system. Why? Because patents are infringed by specific structures that accomplish specific functionality," said Ravicher.

Ravicher said that the crucial difference between his report and Ballmer's use of it was in the distinction between potential and actual patent violation.

"Ballmer makes a very bold statement by saying Linux infringes hundreds of patents," Ravicher said. "That is extremely different than saying 'Linux potentially infringes x patent,' because the requirement to prove infringement is much more difficult than the requirement to simply file a case claiming infringement."

Ravicher is the founder of the Public Patent Foundation and an expert on patent law. He was in South Africa earlier this year when he spoke at the Freedom to Innovate South Africa event in Pretoria.

http://www.tectonic.co.za/view.php?id=1519

[Ya'akov]

Open Letter to the Community from Novell

Since our announcement, some parties have spoken about this patent agreement in a damaging way, and with a perspective that we do not share. We strongly challenge those statements here.

We disagree with the recent statements made by Microsoft on the topic of Linux and patents. Importantly, our agreement with Microsoft is in no way an acknowledgment that Linux infringes upon any Microsoft intellectual property. When we entered the patent cooperation agreement with Microsoft, Novell did not agree or admit that Linux or any other Novell offering violates Microsoft patents.

http://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft/community_open_letter.html

“..as we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours; and this we should do freely and generously.”-- Benjamin Franklin.

Oh what to do ? Certainly don't pay up, for one thing. Don't be scared into changing your current Linux distribution for one that claims to offer patent “protection” from Microsoft. Currently Microsoft is making much of the patent threat by not being specific about what patents they think Linux distributions are violating. There's a reason for that. As soon as they reveal the actual patents they claim are being violated those patents will come under intense legal scrutiny. Most software patents are completely invalid, being covered by “prior art” (previous, non-patented use of the same technique) or simply just by being completely obvious and non-innovative in their claims. In addition to this it may be easy to avoid violating any given patent by changing any infringing code to use a different, non-patented technique.

As soon as Microsoft reveals it's hand a host of Free Software programmers and supporting companies and lawyers will be swarming over the claims to disprove, dismiss or simply code around the problem. You might as well let them do the work for you (just like you do with the software). I would encourage any US Linux users to make a donation to either the Free Software Foundation or the Software Freedom Law Center though, as these foundations will be the ones leading any defense you might end up needing.

It's a funny situation, but it seems that Microsoft's patent portfolio is only valuable so long as their claims are surrounded by fear, doubt, and secrecy. Which is a little odd when dealing with ideas that are supposed to help share and increase the sum of human knowledge isn't it ?


Finally,
and the real meat of the argument, is software patents. The original intent of the patent system was to encourage inventors to reveal their trade secrets and thus encourage the sharing of knowledge for the benefit of all humanity. How do you get people to reveal trade secrets without being forced to ? Simple, the government (on behalf of the people of course) offers them a deal. The person (and this also includes “natural persons” in US law, ie. Corporations) is granted a time-limited monopoly to license for a fee whatever trade secret they reveal no matter if anyone else came up with the same idea independently.

[Dragonbite]

According to the article, they're getting ready to.I think that's a typo... (emphasis by me)

Red Hat has repeatedly stated that it will not engage in a patent licensing deal similar to the Novell-Microsoft partnership, referring to its as an 'innovation tax'.The link doesn't suggest anywhere (that I have found so far) that RedHat will ink a deal with Microsoft.

Of course RedHat said that if a proper deal came before them that furthered their (RH) cause they will look into it. Any good business is going to "look into it" because they don't want to slam the door on an opportunity before seeing the details.

[jgrabham]

Cant we sue them for something - making a KDE and mac OS x hybrid, which constantly crashes, and neds a supercomputer to run it, then names it sight in Itallian. Can we apply to the OFT for monopolistic practises - oh wait... they dont give a crap.

[bapoumba]

Threads merged.

[smartboyathome]

Cant we sue them for something - making a KDE and mac OS x hybrid, which constantly crashes, and neds a supercomputer to run it, then names it sight in Itallian. Can we apply to the OFT for monopolistic practises - oh wait... they dont give a crap.

Unfortunately, I don't think so. But if we could get a glimpse at the patents that Google and the other open source protectors hold for open source projects, THEN we might be able to.

[p_quarles]

Does anyone reallly think this will result in a lawsuit? Honest question.

Personally, I think a suit would be a terrible move on MS's part, and they probably have no plans to file one. A patent infringement suit would require that they stop being so vague about the "intellectual property" which GNU/Linux supposedly violates, and that won't help them. First, U.S. judges are finally starting to invalidate "obvious" patents, and second, they know as well as we do that the SCO Group is in a bit of a state now after a four year-long court battle.

On the face of it, Microsoft's claim (that Linux violates patents) is very different from the issue in Novell v. SCOG (which was that SCOG was falsely claiming ownership of UNIX SVR4). That said, a lot of the features that GNU/Linux and Windows systems share have a complicated history. For instance, MS and Apple made an out-of-court deal regarding a bunch of GUI features that were allegedly stolen. Such ridiculous questions as whether or not MS "owns" cascading windows might actually come up in a suit.

edit: Of course, Ballmer's words are still a threat to Red Hat and other commercial operations in the sense that they're going to scare businesses away from adopting Linux. That's the real issue here, in my view.

[Dimitriid]

I hate it when microsoft does this. It gives my mom something to tease Linux about (she sides with microsoft, as they provide money towards schools, especially in my state [yes, I live in Washington!]).

Tell her that Charity is a condescending tool of the Bourgeoisie to keep the oppressed people oppressed by taking away their dignity forcing them into humiliation to survive.

If that fails, just tell her that if she thinks its fair that the third richest man in the world and his goons get to live in ludicrous opulence effectively taking away the means of the people to survive in other parts of the world just because a few kids that constitute less than probably 0.0001% of all the kids in the world get a few peanuts while thousands of others die to starvation while these miserable sons of bitches count their millions and bother anybody who has enough living braincells to still oppose them at every turn and search for alternative software.

If that fails come back here and ask tell me her replies, I'll keep em coming.

[Dimitriid]

edit: Of course, Ballmer's words are still a threat to Red Hat and other commercial operations in the sense that they're going to scare businesses away from adopting Linux. That's the real issue here, in my view.

Thats not true, it has already been pointed out that a lawsuit based on defamation has enough grounds and will just draw em out to the light whatever the result is ( If they do not present the claims, its an effective corporate STFU to them, if they do present their stupid claims you can smash em to pieces in court and effectively kill their FUD anyway. )

The only real threat is Red Hat themselves if they react with a corporate mind: scared of Microsoft going in for the deal like Novell.

[p_quarles]

Thats not true, it has already been pointed out that a lawsuit based on defamation has enough grounds and will just draw em out to the light whatever the result is ( If they do not present the claims, its an effective corporate STFU to them, if they do present their stupid claims you can smash em to pieces in court and effectively kill their FUD anyway. )

The only real threat is Red Hat themselves if they react with a corporate mind: scared of Microsoft going in for the deal like Novell.
Yeah, I know, I was the one that pointed that out.

My point in the section you quoted is that these kinds of statements from Ballmer tend to scare corporations. The bosses generally know very little about software, computers, much less about the history of open source software. They do, however, usually get wind of what the CEO of Microsoft has to say. I would wager that there are a lot of corporations that will hear this, not realize that there is no chance of an actual lawsuit against Red Hat or anyone, and decide that it's "safer" to stick with Windows or Novell.

That's what FUD is all about, my friend.

[Dimitriid]

Well there you have it, a failure of the free market. We should do away with corporations and their little regimes of imbeciles.

[p_quarles]

Well there you have it, a failure of the free market.
That's putting it mildly. :)


We should do away with corporations and their little regimes of imbeciles.
Sure, but I'd be elated if we could just enforce current anti-trust and free trade laws. Getting rid of software patents in my country wouldn't be bad, either.

[lancest]

Red Hat is doing well and winning contracts. MS wants to slow that growth by using FUD. I wondered if RH might sue first to protect it's growth? Maybe that would be like nuclear war? Thankfully we have companies like Red Hat and Ubuntu that refuse to make any patent deals with MS. MS knows Linux is viable on all kind of servers but I wonder if they are fearing to lose their desktop?

[blackcp]

Yeah well, Too bad ballmer, Your not gonna get your set of 100 rolls royces from trying to scam linux, bitch.

[misfitpierce]

Ballmer always messing with linux... They know its the downfall of MS... :)

[FranMichaels]

Hi,

Mark Shuttleworth, Ubuntu's founder, has some excellent responses to Ballmer's statements. :)



Shuttleworth continued: "Ballmer is saying that Linux is not a safe neighborhood for users. He's implying that simply using open source is somehow dangerous. They need to back off on those claims. They're simply not true. Microsoft must actually state what the infringements are."

Here is the interview :KS
http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS6358901134.html

[Dragonbite]

I think instead of saying "Show us the code" (which of course Ballmer won't), we should just tell him

"So? What are you going to do about it?"

He sues.. then it goes to court and they have to show the code
He screams ... he looks like an (already big) butt-head
He competes ... we ALL win :)
He does anything else... we ignore him until he actually does something.

"So Ballmer, watcha going to do about it?"

[Meomix]

if microsoft couldnt get anymore stupid, this just proves it, are they trying to takeover the linux market now?

[bonzodog]

You know, thinking about it, and looking at recent political activity by Microsoft, I think Steve Ballmer is actually up to something very clever.

It's well known that the current US Patent system is heavily flawed, especially in the area of Software Patents.
One of the big things that even Microsoft have suffered with multiple times is Patent Trolls.

So, current thinking inside the US is that it needs reforming heavily, and to this end, a bill was presented to the US congress a few weeks back, pushing for reforms. One of the things that this bill would do, by Microsoft's own admission, is invalidate a lot of the patents they hold.

Guess what? Microsoft actually sponsored the bill. They want to see the patents system reformed in the US as much as we do, but they only hold so much pushing power in the US administration.

So, they need to make the US public at large outside the tech community sit up and realise just how far this goes. To this end they kick up a storm about the size of their portfolio, and make vague threats about what damage they could do. They know as much as we do that it would all end badly if anyone was to actually act on it.

I don't think microsoft have any actual intention to do anything about the patents, they just want to bring the sheer stupidity of the system to the publics attention using 'shock and awe' type tactics.

Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_Reform_Act_of_2007

[Sunnz]

I have been wondering...

Why don't Linux Distro's including Ubuntu Red Hat Fedora and Linux developers publicly state that they are interested to work with MS to fix this patent issues?

That could become supporting evidence for Linux vendors is it is MS who are not interested about their patent issues should one day this is take to the court?

Actually, it is improbable for MS to take this to court, the FUD ends as soon as the patents issues are exposed... but at least, by making a public statement of the willingness to fixing up issues, would demonstrate it is MS who fails to provide the details, not Linux vendor's fault.

Just my thoughts...

I know there is this show us the code thing... but they don't seem to understand the issue very well... and it is just not as official.

[p_quarles]

Red Hat has an entire division of its company devoted specifically to clearing up patent issues and idemnifying their customers. Mark Shuttleworth has said a few times that it's silly of MS to claim patent violations without offering any details or specifics. I think what you're asking for is pretty much already in place.

[Sunnz]

Oh, I see, maybe the problem is to make these statements more public, so the masses actually acknowledge Linux vendor's position and stuff...

[DoctorMO]

You know, thinking about it, and looking at recent political activity by Microsoft, I think Steve Ballmer is actually up to something very clever.

You know it may well be, it would have to be bloody clever though, perhaps they see this as win win, they can cause damage to Linux at the same time as tearing a hole in the patent system; either way they win.

But part of me just says it's a play for Microsoft shareholders to show that Microsoft is moving into new markets (in this case the patent troll racket)

But as some know the linux community will tear down patent law if it stands in the way and nothing short of total destruction will do once you've pissed of the geeks. (erka revenge of the geeks)

[drFUNK]

Yeah well, Too bad ballmer, Your not gonna get your set of 100 rolls royces from trying to scam linux, bitch.

That post made me laugh out loud at my desk. :lolflag: I do think bonzodog's observation is very interesting though. I can't wait to see how this develops.:popcorn:

[jgrabham]

I´m going to throw a chair at that guy:)

HEY

what have I told people about getting chair jokes in before me!!!

[Lster]

Ballmer is an idiot. Nothing further needs to be said. An idiot.

[p_quarles]

Ballmer is an idiot. Nothing further needs to be said. An idiot.
Yep. A new addition to the Groklaw story (http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20071008205138925):

Update 3: Oct. 9: BetaNews says Microsoft is "scrambling (http://www.betanews.com/article/Microsoft_Scrambling_to_Explain_Ballmer_Comment_on _Red_Hat_Linux/1191963805)" to come up with a statement to "explain" Ballmer's comments:
But one spokesperson acknowledged late this afternoon that multiple sources have yet to come to an agreement over what the company should say. How about, "woops"?

[popch]

Ballmer is an idiot. Nothing further needs to be said. An idiot.

Is that why Microsoft is so successful at holding their monopoly in so many segments of the software market?

[p_quarles]

Is that why Microsoft is so successful at holding their monopoly in so many segments of the software market?
Ballmer has been in charge of the company for something like two years, and it hasn't made any significant achievements during that time. So what's your point?

[popch]

Ballmer has been in charge of the company for something like two years, and it hasn't made any significant achievements during that time. So what's your point?

They have held their market share. They have introduced yet another useless version of their office suite. Ballmer has been in charge of 'marketing' quite a while longer than two years.

If he was so daft as some of us seem to believe, how come he did what he did with so much success?

[FranMichaels]

They have held their market share. They have introduced yet another useless version of their office suite. Ballmer has been in charge of 'marketing' quite a while longer than two years.

If he was so daft as some of us seem to believe, how come he did what he did with so much success?

I don't think Steve Ballmer is dumb, I think he and his company plays dirty.
Shocking News now:

Patent Infringement Lawsuit Filed Against Red Hat & Novell - Just Like Ballmer Predicted
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20071011205044141

Luckily it is a very old patent, but I am sure it is just coincidence that Acacia (the parent company of IP Innovation)
"in July one Microsoft executive arrives; then as of October 1, there is the second, a patent guy. October 9, IP Innovation, a subsidiary, sues Red Hat. And Novell. So much for being Microsoft's little buddy."

P.S. Maybe the consequences of this will actually "prove" Steve Ballmer is in fact dumb. Time will tell. :razz:

[MountainX]

- Steve Ballmer

It applies to more than RedHat it turns out...
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20071008205138925

I don't speak for everyone.
I switched to Linux and use Free and Open Source software, one big reason was to escape from Microsoft and its platform...

But they just won't leave people alone. :twisted:

I've changed my opinion about that EU think tank that recommended to unbundle OS and PC.

"Windows has reached 35% of the price of a new computer."
http://www.cybersource.com.au/users/conz/why_the_unbundling_windows_sceptics_are_wrong.html

Sounds like a good discount :)

:lolflag: I'm counting on the EU now, though I live in the US. I hope they stay away from software patents, and make their anti-trust ruling effective! Enough is enough...

We should not let this discussion fade away...

Add these sites to your reader or bookmarks:
Groklaw http://www.groklaw.net
Boycott Novell http://boycottnovell.com

We need to be more informed.