"I'll switch when KDE 4 Comes out!"

[Incense]

I see in a lot of threads that Gnomes users will be willing to give KDE a go once KDE4 is stable. I was just wondering what is it about 4 that has you Gnome users excited; the UI, the apps (Amarok 2, Koffice 2...)., or the big analog clock on the desktop?

Cheers!

[sp0onman]

for me its dolphin i think, and also ive always wanted to use kde and when 4 comes out i will.

[kanem]

For me, it's just something different to try. Also, I'm looking forward to having KDE apps when I'm forced to use Windows (any Linux desktop is better than Windows IMO).

But I seriously doubt I'll stop using Gnome as my main desktop.

[MRiGnS]

Mayn don't like Suse/Novell because of the MS deal, and I think it's just the same with gnome. They sold their souls.

Also Gnome takes away much of your choice in how to customise your desktop (no, I'm not talking about artwork)

Gnome was really decent up until 5 years ago, but then idiocracy took over.

Even Linus Torvalds, who most of the time does not care about such stuff flamed gnome.


On Tue, 13 Dec 2005, Till Kamppeter wrote:
>
> Frederic told that the options from the PPD file are intentionally mot
> listed in the printing dialog, the usability team of GNOME was against
> listing these options. They clutter the dialog and can be more confusing
> than useful to the user.

I personally just encourage people to switch to KDE.

This "users are idiots, and are confused by functionality" mentality of
Gnome is a disease. If you think your users are idiots, only idiots will
use it. I don't use Gnome, because in striving to be simple, it has long
since reached the point where it simply doesn't do what I need it to do.

Please, just tell people to use KDE.

Linus


On Tue, 13 Dec 2005, Jeff Waugh wrote:
>
> That's definitely not a point of view of the GNOME Project - we're focused
> on making Free Software appropriate for users who are smart (we don't talk
> about 'dumb users'), but just don't care about computing technology. We're
> just like every other Free Software project - fixing stuff requires the work
> and attention of people who care about the problem at hand.

No. I've talked to people, and often your "fixes" are actually removing
capabilities that you had, because they were "too confusing to the user".

That's _not_ like any other open source project I know about. Gnome seems
to be developed by interface nazis, where consistently the excuse for not
doign something is not "it's too complicated to do", but "it would confuse
users".

The current example of "intentionally not listed in the printing dialog,
the usability team of GNOME was against listing these options." is clearly
not the exception, but the rule.

Jeff, if the explanation had been "exposing PPD features is too hard, we
need developer manpower", I'd have understood. THAT is what open source
projects tend to say. Not "powerful interfaces might confuse users and not
look nice".

If this was a one-off, I'd buy it. But I've heard it too damn many times.
And only ever from Gnome.

The reason I don't use Gnome: every single other window manager I know of
is very powerfully extensible, where you can switch actions to different
mouse buttons. Guess which one is not, because it might confuse the poor
users? Here's a hint: it's not the small and fast one.

And when I tell people that, they tend to nod, and have some story of
their own why they had a feature they used to use, but it was removed
because it might have been confusing.

Same with the file dialog. Apparently it's too "confusing" to let users
just type the filename. So gnome forces you to do the icon selection
thing, never mind that it's a million times slower.

Linus

http://mail.gnome.org/archives/usability/2005-December/msg00021.html

http://mail.gnome.org/archives/usability/2005-December/msg00022.html

[Andrewie]

I'm not actually a Gnome user, but I think it's the major changes. For one thing, it looks like they got a graphic designer to do the gui for them.

[Polygon]

ill try it, but i really like in gnome the settings are in one place... and at least in kubuntu gutsy they were not. infact the settings i needed to control were in kcontrol and were not located on the menu bar at all. oh well

[Bungo Pony]

I'm willing to give KDE 4 a try. I hope it's implemented better into Ubuntu and not so glitchy. That was my biggest issue. I actually felt like I was running Windows when I gave KDE a shot. However, the apps are excellent.

[samjh]

As an end-user I prefer KDE over Gnome. From a development perspective, I prefer QT over GTK as well.

So I'll definitely give KDE4 a try. I just hope that Kubuntu will try to release with KDE4, rather than KDE3.

[mrgnash]

Linus says a lot of stupid things, and the above quotes are among them. Anyone who bandies the word 'Nazi' about, especially regarding something as trivial as DEs, is not to be taken seriously in my book.

Anyway, I won't be switching to KDE4 because I have never really liked the look and feel of KDE, and KDE4 doesn't look set to radically alter this -- and why should it? It suits some users just fine.

[RAV TUX]

I see in a lot of threads that Gnomes users will be willing to give KDE a go once KDE4 is stable. I was just wondering what is it about 4 that has you Gnome users excited; the UI, the apps (Amarok 2, Koffice 2...)., or the big analog clock on the desktop?

Cheers!KDE 4 could never hold a candle to e17, but I will install KDE 4 just as I have the current KDE.

I will continue to use e17 as my default session, but like any other DE/WM I have installed I can just restart X(ctrl+alt+backspace) and log into any session, KDE 4 or any other that I choose.

[misfitpierce]

Dolphin can already be used. The interface... looks beautiful. I already use KDE a bit but KDE4 looks downright beautiful.

[RAV TUX]

...the above quotes are among them...

This makes completely no sense to me, when reading your post as the most recent post there is NO above only below post.

why because everybody has their thread options different, I have mine set to "Linear - Newest First":

UserCP>Edit Options>Thread Display Mode>Linear - Newest First

[mrgnash]

This makes completely no sense to me, when reading your post as the most recent post there is NO above only below post.

why because everybody has their thread options different, I have mine set to "Linear - Newest First":

UserCP>Edit Options>Thread Display Mode>Linear - Newest First

I don't care.

[Kimm]

The cleaned up UI is one of the reasons to why I'm excited about KDE4. Also the reduced memory-usage and Qt4 (the #1 C++ Framework of all times).

[Freddy]

I was a KDE only user until about a year (or so) ago, then it was Enlightenment17 and now Gnome and E. I wanted to learn Gnome since that has been a goal for me for several years now and now with Gutsy (and before KDE 4.x) I'm going to.

If and when I will switch back to KDE is written in the stars, no one of us can really know if we will make the switch. KDE 4.0 can be a big pile of crap or it can become heaven on earth, we just don't know yet, so this kind of speculation is kind of pointless (at least in my humble opinion). I probably won't use KDE 4.0 (will ofc try it though), but I don't think 4.0 will be stable enough and everything might not be fully implemented by the time it's released. I just hope that the KDE team won't package it up before it is, cause these forums are going to get filled with flamers bashing KDE 4.0 because of bugs and features not stable and implemented. This Gnome vs KDE wars that goes on in several threads are going to multiple and get even nastier.

[GeneralZod]

I just hope that the KDE team won't package it up before it is, cause these forums are going to get filled with flamers bashing KDE 4.0 because of bugs and features not stable and implemented. This Gnome vs KDE wars that goes on in several threads are going to multiple and get even nastier.

KDE 4.0 will be rough, buggy and incomplete - this is basically unavoidable at this point. And these forums are already full of "flamers bashing KDE", so no change there ;)

[hessiess]

dont like kde, by defalt everything is to big, the menubar takes up about 1/4 of the screen!

[happysmileman]

I think there's a lot of reasons I'll use KDE4, first of all, I'm using KDE3.5 now, so won't be that much of a surprise.
Secondly, the applications, Dolphin for one is something I'll definitely want, so is Amarok2, they are both great great improvements on already good software, and the UI for the rest is cleaned up.
And thirdly, plasmoids. I use Superkaramba sometimes anyway, but the plasmoids idea seems a bit better, they're also apparently easier to make that Karamba widgets, though not sure, would need to code for both to find out.

Other than that it's just a combination of more customisation and better development tools (I use C++ so obviously I'm biased, and Python is apparently the language of choice for plasmoids, and 'm learning Python now)

[happysmileman]

dont like kde, by defalt everything is to big, the menubar takes up about 1/4 of the screen!

Takes up same amount as the two GNOME panels for me, except it's all at the bottom. It's very easy to get one small panel at top and another at bottom, which is what I'm using now

[GeneralZod]

Other than that it's just a combination of more customisation and better development tools (I use C++ so obviously I'm biased, and Python is apparently the language of choice for plasmoids, and 'm learning Python now)

C++ & Javascript will be the initial choices for Plasmoid languages, but Ruby and Python will be added later via Kross (there's already a Ruby proof-of-concept plasmoid out there, somewhere), probably post-4.0.

[tehet]

Also, I'm looking forward to having KDE apps when I'm forced to use Windows (any Linux desktop is better than Windows IMO).
Yes, that would be great. Though the sys-admins I have to deal with aren't even allowed to deploy Firefox because someone decided that it's not a thoroughly tested, proven tech kind of thing, as opposed to IE. I guess this is the situation in most cases when someone is forced to use Windows.

[incidence]

I'm waiting for KDE 4 eagerly, mostly cause: KIO slaves are such a treat, I love Amarok, I really like where it is going to (Plasmoid, Kross etc) and of course QT, been programming for it a while now. :)

[Freddy]

KDE 4.0 will be rough, buggy and incomplete - this is basically unavoidable at this point. And these forums are already full of "flamers bashing KDE", so no change there ;)
Yeah I know, but since Ubuntu came saw and conquer the GNU/Linux desktop marke,t users only using Gnome had grown considerably and with that KDE bashing. I believe that when KDE 4.0 RC1 is released a lot of these people will try out KDE and ofc they will find it to be complete pile of crap since it's going to be some nasty bug still there, this will lead to threads upon threads with Gnome users feeling the need to to tell all of us KDE users that we are using a pile of crap. It's going to be a bore ;).

[Erunno]

It's going to be a bore ;).

To the contrary, it's going to be a flame-war of epic proportions. Can't wait.

[epimer]

I switched to KDE recently on the back of reading all the cool stuff that KDE4 has planned. I liked my Gnome before then - or, rather, I liked my GTK apps. Gnome as a DE just doesn't excite me any more. At least the KDE guys are looking to try something new, maybe push the boundaries and introduce a few new good ideas. The Gnome idea of slow, incremental improvements just doesn't appeal in comparison.

[Ultra Magnus]

Oddly enough I'm eagerly looking forward to trying out KDE4 - I used to dislike KDE for various reasons but they seem to be sorting most of them out in KDE4 - If only they'd rename all those K named Apps!

One of the best things I've seen so far is the new KDE menu (raptor or something) - I saw this on Digg the other day but can't seem to find an aweful lot else about it.

http://pinheiro-kde.blogspot.com/2007/10/raptor-join-fun.html

I tried out the beta od kde4 but there were allot of things saying this item couldn't be displayed - Like the look of them plasmoid things aswell

[capink]

From a development perspective, I prefer QT over GTK as well.
.

I hear that a lot. Can you shed some light on what you mean?. In my experience qt seemed to be faster than gtk. But I use gtk mainly. I don't know a lot about programming, but I am interested in learning GUI programming. I want to know which toolkit would be easier to start with.

[Quillz]

I've used KDE 3 in the past and just have never really liked it. But KDE 4 looks really good, so I fully intend on giving it (and Kubuntu) a try once it reaches its final release. And that shouldn't too long, since KDE 4 is already in beta.

[Kimm]

I hear that a lot. Can you shed some light on what you mean?. In my experience qt seemed to be faster than gtk. But I use gtk mainly. I don't know a lot about programming, but I am interested in learning GUI programming. I want to know which toolkit would be easier to start with.

Qt4 tends to be easier to use. For one its not only a GUI-Framework, but also gives you access to a lot of neat features (like execution of and communication with external apps), QStrings (which gives you complete control of your strings), amoung lots of other things. I'm fairly new to Qt4, but I feel like it almost completely transforms C++ to a simpler but still more powerfull language. QDevelop and Qt4 Designer also work as a _wounderfull_ combo when writing applications.

I did try to learn GTK about a year back, but I found it clumbsy and hard to master. Qt4 really made me take off in the GUI department.

Generally I find GTK to be a lot more visually appealing, but Qt4 with the Cleanlooks theme comes close, and integrates nicely with my other apps.

[Incense]

Yeah I know, but since Ubuntu came saw and conquer the GNU/Linux desktop marke,t users only using Gnome had grown considerably and with that KDE bashing. I believe that when KDE 4.0 RC1 is released a lot of these people will try out KDE and ofc they will find it to be complete pile of crap since it's going to be some nasty bug still there, this will lead to threads upon threads with Gnome users feeling the need to to tell all of us KDE users that we are using a pile of crap. It's going to be a bore ;).

That is one of my concerns as well. Even just trying the beta right now is pretty rough. KDE4 is really going to need some time to mature. I can't wait to see what it looks like this time next year. The DE wars will be fantastic though! :guitar:

[greymongrey]

KDE 4.0 doesn't excite me at all. 4.5 might, though, if the 3.xx versions are any indication, it's going to take some time to work out all the bugs. I played with a couple of KDE apps in openSuse 10.3 and they looked great.

I think the main thing Gnome needs to work on is the looks. Everyone is wanting that nice, shiny look. For a lot of people looks count more than features. I mean, unless I am mistaken you'll get the same apps you have now with KDE, they'll just be nicer looking and a hopefully a few more features.

[ComplexNumber]

Everyone is wanting that nice, shiny look.not everyone.

--------------

i don't think many will switch after the honeymoon period is over, although many people will check out kde4 to see what all the hype is about. about 90-95% of those people who prefer gnome will continue to use gnome after the honeymoon period is over, and about 10% of those who traditionally used kde will probably end up using gnome.

[Freddy]

about 10% of those who traditionally used kde will probably end up using gnome.
And why do you think that? People tend to use KDE for a couple of things, it's reconfigurability (which it still are going to have) and the applications (which they still are going to use). I don't believe that a lot of Gnome users will be instantly converted and ofc some KDE users will leave for Gnome if their high expectations isn't fulfilled (which it won't due to a new buggie major release).

But I don't share your fanboy look on things, that KDE will lose users even in the longterm. I like Gnome, I'm even using it now but I really love the reconfigurability of KDE, what I don't like is the mess of options it has now a days but the devs are aware of the problem and will clean KDE up I hope.

[ComplexNumber]

And why do you think that?because a similar proportion are likely to be put off it with all the bugs. they may well go back to kde after about 4.5. consider the effect vista is having on microsoft's share. that's what happens in the real world.



But I don't share your fanboy look on things, that KDE will lose users even in the longterm. my fanboy look? no, you have it the wrong way around.
most people don't see configurability as the holy grail, otherwise kde wouldn't have continuously and consistantly lost market share to gnome since about 2003.

[thisllub]

I spent 3 1/2 hours installing OpenSUSE 10.3 on Friday.(A story in itself. Only Gentoo is slower)

After trying to get something sensible to happen with the KDE4 preview I used Ctrl-Alt-Bksp to get out of it.

Maybe this time next year.

[Erunno]

I spent 3 1/2 hours installing OpenSUSE 10.3 on Friday.(A story in itself. Only Gentoo is slower)

That's quite a feat. Did you use the cd installer and added the all of the OSS / Non-OSS packages to the installation? Even on my medicore system the standard cd installation (with online repositories) didn't take longer than something above an hour.

[thisllub]

That's quite a feat. Did you use the cd installer and added the all of the OSS / Non-OSS packages to the installation? Even on my medicore system the standard cd installation (with online repositories) didn't take longer than something above an hour.

The only thing I can put it down to was answering yes to a question about checking for updates.

I have spent more time on SUSE than any other Linux and have always liked it but I am not seeing anything in 10.3 that would make me put it on my desktop.

[Erunno]

because a similar proportion are likely to be put off it with all the bugs. they may well go back to kde after about 4.5. consider the effect vista is having on microsoft's share. that's what happens in the real world.

When Mac OS X 10.0 was released it was riddled with bugs and performance problems as can be expected when making radical technological changes. Did it hurt OS X's market share in the long run that it needed years to become what it is today?

[Andrewie]

how is everyone looking into the future? KDE 4 hasn't been released, but some how everyone knows it's buggy? :confused:

[Erunno]

how is everyone looking into the future? KDE 4 hasn't been released, but some how everyone knows it's buggy? :confused:

It's pretty easy to come to this conclusion when you look at the current state of KDE4 in SVN. That the release is in 2 months and some major pieces like Panel, KMenu and frameworks like Decibel and Akonadi haven't been finished yet doesn't really help my optimism. And from my personal experience it's still less than stable.

[ComplexNumber]

When Mac OS X 10.0 was released it was riddled with bugs and performance problems as can be expected when making radical technological changes. Did it hurt OS X's market share in the long run that it needed years to become what it is today?
bad analogy.
the difference being is that those who had a mac didn't really have much option other than to use OS X. those on a PC can change - vista users can go to XP or linux, linux users can switch between kde and gnome.

[Andrewie]

It's pretty easy to come to this conclusion when you look at the current state of KDE4 in SVN. That the release is in 2 months and some major pieces like Panel, KMenu and frameworks like Decibel and Akonadi haven't been finished yet doesn't really help my optimism. And from my personal experience it's still less than stable.

so you guys are doing daily kde 4 compiles?

I've been playing around with the kde4 live disk from suse and kde4 isn't the bad. Either a feature works good or it doesn't work at all. From my understanding anything that isn't stable isn't getting in the final version. I'm sure it'll have bugs, but no more then the standard project has, excluding vista.

WARNING: extreme run-on sentence above, too lazy to fix it :lolflag:

[tehhaxorr]

KDE 4 could never hold a candle to e17, but I will install KDE 4 just as I have the current KDE.

I will continue to use e17 as my default session, but like any other DE/WM I have installed I can just restart X(ctrl+alt+backspace) and log into any session, KDE 4 or any other that I choose.

Won't hold a candle to e17? No, more like a blow torch.

Get off the crack.

[thisllub]

Won't hold a candle to e17? No, more like a blow torch.

Get off the crack.

As a DE not a chance. e17 is a paradigm ahead of KDE or GNOME.
As an application suite that is a different story but KDE4 apps work in e17.

[Sturmeh]

KDE reminds me of Windows.

Even descriptions make a mention on how KDE is for a closer to "Windows" transition.

I just don't like it, in any case, you can use both. xD

I will be giving it a try, so my opinions are not completly biased.

[tehhaxorr]

As a DE not a chance. e17 is a paradigm ahead of KDE or GNOME.
As an application suite that is a different story but KDE4 apps work in e17.

Padigrams are just conceptual metaphors in design, just because it's a 'newer' metaphor does not by any means make it a better one.

I have used e17 and found it to be completely lacking in features and from a usability point of view it's a nightmare. KDE is a FAR better DE in terms of features and usability.

So what if E17 is lightweight and artsy, we don't all care about animated wallpapers and certainly most of us have no problem with running a full featured DE on our PCs, ****, KDE runs fine on my old 350mhz PIII...

E17 is a joke as far as i'm concerned, even comparing it to Gnome or KDE is stupid. unless you want to say something like "My E17 DE is cool because it does less than yours!"

[Acid7711]

I've been looking forward to it for quite some time, however I've recently made the switch from KDE over to Gnome, so now I'm kinda heming and hawing about it.

Overall, I like the changes, however Amarok 2 does NOT look appealing to me. I'm kinda like, wtf have they done to it, personally. I LOVE Amarok, but the new layout doesn't seem streamlined to me. Seems bulky and out of the way compared to the old style.

What I'm excited about more than anything is the hyped increase in speed from qt4. We'll see if it amounts to what the claims will be.

[thisllub]

Padigrams are just conceptual metaphors in design, just because it's a 'newer' metaphor does not by any means make it a better one.

I have used e17 and found it to be completely lacking in features and from a usability point of view it's a nightmare. KDE is a FAR better DE in terms of features and usability.

So what if E17 is lightweight and artsy, we don't all care about animated wallpapers and certainly most of us have no problem with running a full featured DE on our PCs, ****, KDE runs fine on my old 350mhz PIII...

E17 is a joke as far as i'm concerned, even comparing it to Gnome or KDE is stupid. unless you want to say something like "My E17 DE is cool because it does less than yours!"

Comparing e17 to KDE is like comparing a sports car to a high powered sedan.

One has all the features and plenty of power, the other does what you want it to, faster and better.

As a DE e17

Handles multiple screens and desktops better than KDE
Handles window management better than KDE.
Doesn't need a K button to bring up a mouse menu - a left or right click anywhere does the trick.
Ctrl-menu beats the living daylights out of anything KDE has to offer

You are entitled to your opinion.
You are also entitled to be wrong.

[igknighted]

Comparing e17 to KDE is like comparing a sports car to a high powered sedan.

One has all the features and plenty of power, the other does what you want it to, faster and better.

As a DE e17

Handles multiple screens and desktops better than KDE
Handles window management better than KDE.
Doesn't need a K button to bring up a mouse menu - a left or right click anywhere does the trick.
Ctrl-menu beats the living daylights out of anything KDE has to offer

You are entitled to your opinion.
You are also entitled to be wrong.

e17 does indeed handle multiple screens and desktops better than KDE. Window management is more easily configured in KDE (and gnome), but I don't know if there are little things that e17 may do better, so I shall reserve judgment here for now. As for the "need for a k-menu", that's just silly. In KDE you can set the right click (or middle or left click if you prefer) to show your menu and eliminate the k-menu button as well. I am not sure what exactly ctrl-menu does in e17, but I very much doubt that it couldn't be done fairly easily in KDE as well.

Oh yeah, and what the previous poster said about usability is true. e17 is a nightmare. Those awful screens you have to go through to change anything in the config dialogs make changing very simple things a long and arduous task.

e17 is simpler and faster than KDE or Gnome. This is true, no doubt about it. However, on 90% of computer hardware the difference is hardly noticable. And for those who notice and are bothered, e17 is available. But on all my computers, when I hit right-click on KDE versus right click on e17 or fluxbox, the time required is practically indistinguishable. The human mind can only distinguish so much. So if you notice and are bothered, by all means, e17 does some wonderful things. But the usability just isn't there for most users compared to other DEs, which most wouldn't ever notice the slowdown.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion.

You are also (apparently) entitled to belittle other people's opinions without knowing all the facts.

PS: With Compiz you can have much more intuitive handling of windows and multiple displays/desktops than e17 or kwin (KDE). Yes, again this comes at a performance hit, but for the many who do have perfectly acceptable performance running compiz, why not take full advantage of our hardware to get the best of both worlds?

[Erunno]

bad analogy.
the difference being is that those who had a mac didn't really have much option other than to use OS X. those on a PC can change - vista users can go to XP or linux, linux users can switch between kde and gnome.

Point is, people had the opportunity to switch to PC for over two years where the Mac OS X experience was said to be less than thrilling (from what I've read 10.3 was the "breakthrough" release) but they stayed loyal to Apple and OS X despite the problems. Obviously whatever issues Apple's offering had the benefits or perceived potential was worth sitting through until the platform stabilized and got enriched with new features.

[thisllub]

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion.

You are also (apparently) entitled to belittle other people's opinions without knowing all the facts.


My response to which you refer was directed at terms such as "stupid" and "crack pipe" that other users have posted. If they offend the ordinary KDE user i apologise.

I have no axe to grind against KDE, I just prefer the experience of e17. Not for the eye-candy but for the simple efficiency. I rarely use the configuration tools but do spend around 12 hours a day using a computer. The e17 setup I use now is the b est computing experience I have had.

[Spike-X]

I've been curious about KDE for a while now. I'll probably give it a go when 4.0 comes out.

[zAo]

If they finally organize the control panels and get rid of the anoying Konqueror-profiles, I will.

The reasons I never use KDE, are these Konqueror-profiles. I hate them.

[tehhaxorr]

I'm not even going to bother continuing this argument, because KDE is obscenely more powerful than E17. You can't argue any other way.

All you have managed to do is list a small few features where E17 may have an advantage... whoop-de-f'ing-do... Why don't i list every feature in which KDE, or even Gnome surpass E17, there would be a hell of a lot more things to list,. Why don't i list all the features that Gnome and KDE have that don't even exist in E17.

So before you pull out your laughable little list in the future, consider it the other way around, and maybe you will stfu before you start making blatantly false claims of superiority.

[c5QGz8DN]

I'm willing to give it a shot, but it's going to take a lot to make me install both Gnome and KDE on a permanent basis, let alone make a complete switch to KDE.

[EdThaSlayer]

KDE looks a bit more modern in my opinion. GNOME needs to catch up in looking pretty out of the box. :)

[thisllub]

I'm not even going to bother continuing this argument, because KDE is obscenely more powerful than E17. You can't argue any other way.

All you have managed to do is list a small few features where E17 may have an advantage... whoop-de-f'ing-do... Why don't i list every feature in which KDE, or even Gnome surpass E17, there would be a hell of a lot more things to list,. Why don't i list all the features that Gnome and KDE have that don't even exist in E17.

So before you pull out your laughable little list in the future, consider it the other way around, and maybe you will stfu before you start making blatantly false claims of superiority.

Belligerence means nothing.
I never claimed that e17 was more powerful than KDE, just that it does some very basic things better.
Those things make my computer faster and more pleasurable to use than KDE and much more so than GNOME.

[fdhdghdg]

Haven't seen anything exciting about KDE4 yet. However when Kubuntu comes with KDE4 by default I will give it a try for the fun of it. It's all hype IMHO. Same old. KDE users will love it and rant about their Linus Torvalds and how superior they think it is because someone told them so. Same old.

[c5QGz8DN]

I'm willing to give it a shot.

NOT!


("This aint my d*ck in your back!" - Bill Clinton
"THATSA relief!" - Jar Jar Binks)

[Circus-Killer]

I see in a lot of threads that Gnomes users will be willing to give KDE a go once KDE4 is stable. I was just wondering what is it about 4 that has you Gnome users excited; the UI, the apps (Amarok 2, Koffice 2...)., or the big analog clock on the desktop?

Cheers!

well, to be honest, i will give it a try when it comes out, but i have not made any decisions on actually switching to kde once it comes out. see, the hype has gotten way out of proportion. whilst there have been a few little changes to the front-end apps, most of the changes are in the background, invisible to the user. i also think that the dramatic changes going on behind the scenes will make it even less reliable then kde 3, which lets face it, as new-age as they are, they lack in stability.

i think all these people that are getting ready to jump straight to kde4 will get a bit of a surprise, and be a bit let-down. as said, i will give kde4 a try when it comes out, but i'm not making any decisions till i've tried it out. until then, gnome will always remain my preferred choic.

[octopuskevin]

I'm looking forward to KDE4 mainly because of what seems like a radical change in the idea of a 'deskspace'. I tried the beta disc, but it was buggy as anything, so I couldn't really have fun.

While I have used xfce, kde and gnome, I found myself using gnome 99% of the time on my main computer, and xfce for my slower one until i sold it. KDE i must say is quite amazing. its is far more customizable in every way, and I found besides for more programs, there were BETTER made programs. the downside? Constant crashing. Errors this... unexpected crashes that! Could I fix most of them? sure! Do I have time? NO!

I'm a political science student so most of my time is spent reading polices and political behavior so I need an OS that just works how I need it to, when I need it to. Gnome does that for me. I hope that KDE4 will address these problems, but considering the amount of time that is being spent on this total re-haul, the chances of a stable OS are slim to none in my mind.

- Kevin

[phenest]

I see in a lot of threads that Gnomes users will be willing to give KDE a go once KDE4 is stable. I was just wondering what is it about 4 that has you Gnome users excited; the UI, the apps (Amarok 2, Koffice 2...)., or the big analog clock on the desktop?

Cheers!

Exited about KDE4? Nope.

What's wrong with Gnome? KDE looks too much like XP and Vista. And who started the naming covention with KDE anyway?

[Incense]

Exited about KDE4? Nope.

What's wrong with Gnome? KDE looks too much like XP and Vista. And who started the naming covention with KDE anyway?

Never said anything was wrong with Gnome, KDE was around long before XP, and Vista so maybe they look like KDE!, Matthias Ettrich started the naming in 1996. Now you know.

[Freddy]

my fanboy look? no, you have it the wrong way around.
most people don't see configurability as the holy grail, otherwise kde wouldn't have continuously and consistantly lost market share to gnome since about 2003.
Sorry if I'm mistaken you for a fanboy, but to me you post looked like a post from a fanboy, but I might have jumped to conclusion. Yeah, KDE has lost users since many years (myself included). I believe that many things are behind it. For example 2 of the most newbie friendly and popular distros uses Gnome by default (Kubuntu is actually not that good and doesn't have the same backing as Ubuntu). Even if it's easier (in a way) to configure KDE through a GUI, Kcontrol is a mess.

But again sorry for using the F word, I really have no clue if you are one.

[wdo_will]

Personally, I'm a GNOME user myself, but switched between the two and really like both. I will probably switch over to KDE4 when it comes out, but won't end up sticking with it (I like to switch between the two and have a little variety in my life!)

[Andrewie]

:lolflag: the flame war starts

[forrestcupp]

One reason to switch is the built-in desktop effects and the hope that you actually could run an opengl app without having to take the time to turn off the effects first.

[omns]

bad analogy.
the difference being is that those who had a mac didn't really have much option other than to use OS X. those on a PC can change - vista users can go to XP or linux, linux users can switch between kde and gnome.


not necessarily, at the time Mac users had the choice to switch between OS 9 and OS X. OS 9 remained the main supported OS by Apple until OS X was stable. As for now, Mac users can run OS X, XP, Vista, Linux or pretty much whatever they like. Most choose to stay with OS X. I like the analogy.

[jtekUSA]

I am new to Ubuntu and the Gnome DE but not to Linux in general. I started off with SUSE and KDE DE. Once I moved to a laptop, I had problems with SUSE and stopped using Linux until I stumbled upon Ubuntu. I did try KUbuntu as I did not think I would like the Gnome interface, but ended up doing a fresh install of Ubuntu and Gnome. For me, I like the cleaner interface and look. At this point, I wish to stress that like all other software applications, whether one uses KDE or Gnome is based on personal preference. That each DE is running on Linux should be the main focus as it means that person is not using Windows 100% of the time anymore. :)

Being new, I can say that Gnome needs a face lift. Although I mainly am after stability, ease of use and lack of clutter - I also like some eye candy. One thing I have heard that I wish to find out is that KDE has a better font rendering engine than Gnome. Is this true? I have not seen a difference but a friend of mine uses KDE as he says it looks better from a font/text perspective. Please keep in mind I am asking out of curiosity - not to fan the flames.

To answer the question - I would install KDE 4 for the same reasons I would install KD3 now - for variety and curiosity. I guess I am apt to use what gets the job done. I cut my teeth on KDE but am happy with Gnome for now.

[smartboyathome]

I wont try it unless it will be easy to theme. Honestly, that is why I don't like KDE.

[tehhaxorr]

I wont try it unless it will be easy to theme. Honestly, that is why I don't like KDE.

For those who see nothing interesting in KDE4...

The new menu, Raptor (no stupid K naming, you can't complain about that any more because none of the new tech has that convension)

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/8691/ace8b462b857a3b28f3dd3dco6.jpg

[LuisAugusto]

That mockup is too old, it haven't change that much, however:

Behold, the really new raptor menu:

http://www.nuno-icons.com/images/estilo/raptor/find.png

http://www.nuno-icons.com/images/estilo/raptor/cornermenu.png

http://www.nuno-icons.com/images/estilo/raptor/oneapp.png

And it's intelligent, it would be possible to make the menu based on how many times do you use applications, for how long, which days, hours, etc.
(For example, the little icons, mean they are use normally, but no as much as the big ones)

[omns]

I don't see anything to tempt me there

[greymongrey]

I don't see anything to tempt me there
Me either, to tell you the truth. I hate wading through menus to find one odd program. After you use the Kickoff in KDE 3.5.7 for a bit you realize how annoying it is. It looks like KDE 4 will continue refining that annoyance.

[Incense]

Me either, to tell you the truth. I hate wading through menus to find one odd program. After you use the Kickoff in KDE 3.5.7 for a bit you realize how annoying it is. It looks like KDE 4 will continue refining that annoyance.

I like how you can just type the name of the program you are looking for in Kickoff, and it will just show it. I really like that.

As far as Raptor goes, I'll have to use it before I really say anything about it. I does not look very intuitive from the screenshots.

[mips]

I like how you can just type the name of the program you are looking for in Kickoff, and it will just show it. I really like that.


I cant stand kickoff, takes way to long to navigate or type what you want. means I have to take my hand of the mouse, lean forward and start typing.

[wieman01]

That mockup is too old, it haven't change that much, however:

Behold, the really new raptor menu:

http://www.nuno-icons.com/images/estilo/raptor/find.png

http://www.nuno-icons.com/images/estilo/raptor/cornermenu.png

http://www.nuno-icons.com/images/estilo/raptor/oneapp.png

And it's intelligent, it would be possible to make the menu based on how many times do you use applications, for how long, which days, hours, etc.
(For example, the little icons, mean they are use normally, but no as much as the big ones)
Oh my god... this is unbelievable. Best DE I have ever seen. This beats even OSX (don't want to start a flamewar here!). I have been using KDE forever, but this beats everything I have seen so far. Simply beautiful.

[GeneralZod]

Oh my god... this is unbelievable. Best DE I have ever seen. This beats even OSX (don't want to start a flamewar here!). I have been using KDE forever, but this beats everything I have seen so far. Simply beautiful.

Remember that this is a mockup, and likely won't be the default for 4.0 - in fact, it likely won't be ready for use at all by 4.0. The transparent borders, depending on how they are implemented, could also be extremely challenging technically and may not make it, or may require working X compositing which not everyone will have.

The other aspects shouldn't be too difficult, though.

[wieman01]

Remember that this is a mockup, and likely won't be the default for 4.0 - in fact, it likely won't be ready for use at all by 4.0. The transparent borders, depending on how they are implemented, could also be extremely challenging technically and may not make it, or may require working X compositing which not everyone will have.

The other aspects shouldn't be too difficult, though.
I was not aware of that, so I'll keep my fingers crossed. ;-) Other (official) screenshots don't look as promising in fact.

[LuisAugusto]

Remember that this is a mockup, and likely won't be the default for 4.0 - in fact, it likely won't be ready for use at all by 4.0. The transparent borders, depending on how they are implemented, could also be extremely challenging technically and may not make it, or may require working X compositing which not everyone will have.

The other aspects shouldn't be too difficult, though.

Pardon me?

It's true that it may not be ready for 4.0, but Raptor is made to be the default menu. The borders can be turn off, and, by the way kwin4 works, it's possible to have real transparency using 2D accel.

[GeneralZod]

Pardon me?

It's true that it may not be ready for 4.0, but Raptor is made to be the default menu.


This isn't set in stone at all - in fact, from reading the huge mailing list thread on the subject, it seems that Robert "Konsole" Knight's port of Kickoff is currently (very, very slightly) favoured for 4.0, mainly for two reasons:

1) It's been in development for less time than Raptor, but is already a functional menu.
2) Kickoff has had extensive usability work performed over time, whereas Raptor's usability track record is spotty, to say the least.



The borders can be turn off


... in which case it won't look precisely like the mockups, which was the point I was trying to make ;)



, and, by the way kwin4 works, it's possible to have real transparency using 2D accel.

Without requiring working Composite support? I'd be interested to hear more about this. I know of the hacky KDE3 way, which is to simply take a snapshot of the screen behind where the menu will be before the menu is shown and alpha-blend the menu over this snapshot, but this is a poor solution, IMO, especially if the background behind the menu changes continuously. If there's a better way to do this without requiring composite support and which doesn't break with a moving background, I'd like to hear about it, as that's pretty cool :)

[LuisAugusto]

This isn't set in stone at all - in fact, from reading the huge mailing list thread on the subject, it seems that Robert "Konsole" Knight's port of Kickoff is currently (very, very slightly) favoured for 4.0, mainly for two reasons:

1) It's been in development for less time than Raptor, but is already a functional menu.
2) Kickoff has had extensive usability work performed over time, whereas Raptor's usability track record is spotty, to say the least.

It's favored because Raptor may not make it to KDE 4.0, while Kickoff is already functional.




... in which case it won't look precisely like the mockups, which was the point I was trying to make ;)

Yes that's true, but, avant-window-navigator and affinity doesn't look that nice without composite, so... I don't get your point :P If composite is requirement it doesn't mean that the menu doesn't look like that, does it?




Without requiring working Composite support? I'd be interested to hear more about this. I know of the hacky KDE3 way, which is to simply take a snapshot of the screen behind where the menu will be before the menu is shown and alpha-blend the menu over this snapshot, but this is a poor solution, IMO, especially if the background behind the menu changes continuously. If there's a better way to do this without requiring composite support and which doesn't break with a moving background, I'd like to hear about it, as that's pretty cool :)

The effects are designed to degrade gracefully. If GL is not available, KWin disables GL effects but still allows Composite effects where possible via XRender.

BTW, the menu fake transparency have anything to do with this, I didn't say without composite, I said with 2D acel instead of 3D.

What I said is somehow related to the old way of doing composite in KDE, if my memory doesn't fail me, it was a modified version of xcompmgr called kompmgr.

[Erunno]

It's favored because Raptor may not make it to KDE 4.0, while Kickoff is already functional.

Availability is not the sole reason why Kickoff is prefered by some developers. It has publicily available documents about usability testing performed with it and not everyone is ready to unleash a brand new product with no usability testing at all (Raptor) upon an unsuspecting public only because it features some fancy technical and GUI ideas. The application launcher (i.e. Start Menu) is still a very visible and probably frequently used part of the desktop so a mistake in this area will most likely cause a huge backlash.

"New" doesn't necessarily imply "better" and KDE already suffers from the image as a technically superior but usability-wise poor desktop in parts of the community. There's no need to fuel this trend.

I can't imagine Raptor being anything other as an alternative shipped with KDE right now unless something dramatically happens and they can at least show conclusive evidence that their implementation is better than Kickoff.

[LuisAugusto]

Availability is not the sole reason why Kickoff is prefered by some developers. It has publicily available documents about usability testing performed with it and not everyone is ready to unleash a brand new product with no usability testing at all (Raptor) upon an unsuspecting public only because it features some fancy technical and GUI ideas. The application launcher (i.e. Start Menu) is still a very visible and probably frequently used part of the desktop so a mistake in this area will most likely cause a huge backlash.

"New" doesn't necessarily imply "better" and KDE already suffers from the image as a technically superior but usability-wise poor desktop in parts of the community. There's no need to fuel this trend.

I can't imagine Raptor being anything other as an alternative shipped with KDE right now unless something dramatically happens and they can at least show conclusive evidence that their implementation is better than Kickoff.

Have you ever read how Raptor will work?

It's basely Kickoff with a fancy GUI (better, if you ask me, screens are wide, so it's more intelligent to make your application use horizontal space) and an AI engine.

The only thing that obviously shouldn't be like in the mockups, if the position of the menu, corners are reach more easily than the center of the screen.

[Erunno]

Have you ever read how Raptor will work?

It's basely Kickoff with a fancy GUI (better, if you ask me, screens are wide, so it's more intelligent to make your application use horizontal space) and an AI engine.

The only thing that obviously shouldn't be like in the mockups, if the position of the menu, corners are reach more easily than the center of the screen.

We have to differ between the functionality of Kickoff / Raptor and their implementation of the user interface. You just pointed to one of the things which I almost immediatly disliked about the mockups: The centered alignment of the menu with buttons which seem to hover above the menu bar making them harder to click them since you have to aim both horizontally and vertically.

See, the Kickoff application browser actually is pretty easy to navigate with the mouse: Each entry has a lot of width and (for me) acceptable height which eases targeting. The real benefit though is the vertical "back" bar which is at the edge of the screen. You practically don't have to target it at all (I think this is also covered by Fitt's Law, isn't it?).

[tech9]

for me its dolphin i think, and also ive always wanted to use kde and when 4 comes out i will.

I love Pug dogs!

Nice Picture

[LuisAugusto]

We have to differ between the functionality of Kickoff / Raptor and their implementation of the user interface. You just pointed to one of the things which I almost immediatly disliked about the mockups: The centered alignment of the menu with buttons which seem to hover above the menu bar making them harder to click them since you have to aim both horizontally and vertically.

That's just nunos mockup, it's from a designer. If the menu make it to KDE 4.0, you can be sure it won't have the menu in the middle.


See, the Kickoff application browser actually is pretty easy to navigate with the mouse: Each entry has a lot of width and (for me) acceptable height which eases targeting. The real benefit though is the vertical "back" bar which is at the edge of the screen. You practically don't have to target it at all (I think this is also covered by Fitt's Law, isn't it?).

I agree with the fact that Kickoff is easy to navigate (I use kickoff), but I find that a wide oriented menu it's more intelligent (of course, I don't mean by this that it should cover all the screen), just look at the mockup, it's showing 7 applications using a lot less space than kickoff, but they can be still easily reach, can't they?

[Incense]

I cant stand kickoff, takes way to long to navigate or type what you want. means I have to take my hand of the mouse, lean forward and start typing.

I hear the a lot, and I never quite got it. It's really the same structure as the applications menu in Gnome, or the old K menu. Kickoff just (IMO) looks nicer, and have increased usability with the integrated launch/search bar. I thought it looked too busy at first, but the more I used it, the more I really enjoy it. It's nicer then the SLED menu at least. ;)

Anyway, I saw somewhere that KDE4 is going to use the Control Center from Kubuntu? Anyone else hear this? I'm not sure how I feel about that...

[GeneralZod]

Anyway, I saw somewhere that KDE4 is going to use the Control Center from Kubuntu? Anyone else hear this? I'm not sure how I feel about that...

System Settings, you mean? Unfortunately, yes. I hear that someone has actually hired someone else to port KControl, though, so all is not lost! :)

[omns]

I like how you can just type the name of the program you are looking for in Kickoff, and it will just show it. I really like that.

It's somewhat like spotlight in OS X

[Incense]

It's somewhat like spotlight in OS X

We have Katapult to replace that app. Even has built in spell check...

http://katapult.kde.org/screenshots

[Darkagentx]

I like gnome, but I'll definitely be trying this out; it looks nice.

[Frak]

Not the apps, since they run fine under Gnome, just the enhanced UI.

[adzik]

I doubt I'll be wasting my time with KDE4...
I used to use KDE, but too many little f-ups here and there. Inconsistency in design (i'm not referring to visual components) would cause things to break and slow me down at work.
But, to each their own and why freedom of choice is a good thing here in our non-Windows world.
I may use my computer to get work done... you may use it to have eye sex with your desktop... ;)

cheers to KDE4

[toupeiro]

I used enlightenment years ago. the first linux install I ever did in fact. (Redhat 5.2) The new versions screenshot looks nice.

I previously said I wouldn't be using KDE4, but the latest screens have caught my attention. I work every day with linux in my job, and I can appreciate an intuitive GUI to get work done. There is nothing wrong with that, as long as the benefits are real 'productive' benefits and not just resource hogging eyecandy..

I still say KDE's interface feels too much like Windows which is why I am a bigger fan of Gnome, and a long time ago enlightenment. But, if I can carve it up and make it feel like I want like I did to gnome I'm sure it will be cool to use. Still, I probably wont mess with it until the 8.04 LTS release.

[Erunno]

System Settings, you mean? Unfortunately, yes. I hear that someone has actually hired someone else to port KControl, though, so all is not lost! :)

That's great news, I almost dropped my coffee mug when I read this. Do you have any additional information about who hired who and why? Nevertheless, here's hoping that KControl will make it into 4.1 which sounds better by the minute.

[GeneralZod]

That's great news, I almost dropped my coffee mug when I read this. Do you have any additional information about who hired who and why? Nevertheless, here's hoping that KControl will make it into 4.1 which sounds better by the minute.

Some dude on dot.kde.org, so maybe take it with a pinch of salt ;)

http://dot.kde.org/1191203775/1191223460/1191226961/1191229779/1191237393/1191266387/1191307493/

[s_spiff]

I used ti ages back.. and somehow never liked the feel of it. Even the taskbar annoys me great deal.. the whole two line taskbar idea doesnt appeal. That apart.. I don't use soo many app's even in Gnome.. so KDE would be worthless.
Gnome satisfies my needs as of yet.

P.S. I tried Konqueror and it is a royal PITA according to me. It doesn't have the 'close tab' on the tabs, but at the far right hand corner! uggh!

P.P.S. No flames intended, its just my view, now that the topic has come up.

[jfdill_2]

I'm playing with Kubuntu Gutsy Beta after primarily using Gnome desktop for some time now, really trying to give this a shot. So far, I am not in love with the way that kmail is working for me after primarily using Thunderbird for e-mail. I'm hoping that I can figure out how to configure kmail to work more to my liking, perhaps with dIMAP.

[theharshone]

I use kde4 with the yellow color shceme and use e17 as the window manager. That is true beauty

[Espreon]

These are the following things which is swaying me to KDE 4:

1. The port to QT 4, which should make KDE 4 swifter than KDE 3, since QT 4 is 20-30% more efficient...

2. Dolphin

3. Oxygen (I hate the western cartoonish look of Crystal)

4. Plasma (sort of)

I have KDE 4 right now and I think it is really great, as it is much faster, smoother and more serene than KDE 3 (I had it once and got rid of it after 30 mins due to slowness and repulsiveness). But I just can not use it right now, due to the lack of an autostart feature and the lack of gtk-qt for KDE 4, lack of kdesudo and lots of the configuration modules are not ported yet...

[Polygon]

when kde4 is in a usable state, ill use it, but from my experience with the kubuntu kde4 live cd, it is no where usability. I could not configure my sound, the size of the huge honkin panel, or even my wireless card.

*starts waiting for 4.1*