KDE4- Good or Bad for Linux?

[GSF1200S]

KDE 4 promises to bring alot of new things to the table. I would imagine it will be more stable, and of course it will be packed full of more options.

The big question mark in my mind is the possible effects that will take place as KDE 4 will be ported to Windows.

Now, for all you KDE gurus who know alot about its development process- how exactly does this porting work? Will they simply port individual programs over to Windows, or will they port the entire desktop environment, allowing one to run the KDE GUI in place of the Windows GUI? If its the latter, than a few things come to the plate...

It could be a really good thing, as commercial and OSS devs will create many awesome programs, maybe even making some of our lacking programs for Linux. We could potentially see an explosion of software for Linux, as one of its prized DE's could be in the Windows world.

However, could this be a two edged sword? With KDE on Windows, one might revel in the glory of KDEs options, without noticing the kernel underneath the GUI... What if KDE becomes involved with its main userbase, which could end up being Windows as it has a larger base of people? In essence, im asking if the introduction of KDE4, however awesome it may be, could hurt the progression of Linux's rise to the desktop.

I dont know exactly- what do you guys think?

[hessiess]

if its kde, its bad

[GSF1200S]

if its kde, its bad

Cmon now.. not all of us feel that way :)

I like gnome too, im just curious how KDE4 will effect Linux in general..

[fflarex]

Only individual KDE programs are getting ported... not the whole desktop environment. And not all apps will be ported either (for example, I'm fairly sure Konqueror and Kontact are not getting ports for either Windows or Mac, while Amarok and Krita will appear on both platforms). In my opinion, KDE 4 can only be a good thing. Even if the majority of its users turn out to be on Windows or Mac, that's still exposing more people to open source, free software.

[kanem]

This was actually a heated debate amongst developers as well. Some felt they should keep all the great apps in the Linux world and that if they were ported to Windows people would have less incentive to move over to Linux. Others felt that the more apps are ported to Windows, the easier it is to switch. IMO they both had some good points.

I honestly don't know whether this would help or hurt Linux adoption, but I am still for it for 2 reasons. First of all, KDE is not OS specific, nor do the devs claim it is and I see no reason why it should be. There are other OSs that it works with, why not Windows? My second, more selfish reason is that I have to use Windows sometimes and I'd like to be able to use KDE apps when I do.

[angryfirelord]

This was actually a heated debate amongst developers as well. Some felt they should keep all the great apps in the Linux world and that if they were ported to Windows people would have less incentive to move over to Linux. Others felt that the more apps are ported to Windows, the easier it is to switch. IMO they both had some good points.
I think you hit the nail on the head there.

Porting KDE or not, there will always be some users who will complain about Linux one way or the other. :)

if its kde, its bad
hehe, Amen to that! :KS

[happysmileman]

This was actually a heated debate amongst developers as well. Some felt they should keep all the great apps in the Linux world and that if they were ported to Windows people would have less incentive to move over to Linux. Others felt that the more apps are ported to Windows, the easier it is to switch. IMO they both had some good points.

Port a select few of the programs to Windows, but keep the DE itself Linux-exclusive, I think this is what they're doing but not sure. I think Windows users should be able to get Amarok and Krita and stuff, but I think they should remain Linux programs, on the website I think the screenshots should focus mainly on Linux, the download links should be Linux, then Windows, only a few lines of text but it might get people wondering about what this "linux" is anyway. And there should be links to Kbuntu website (I said Kubuntu not because I'm being my usual KDE fan-boy, but because it's a KDE program, so don't bother calling me on that, adn any other KDE distro is also fine)

[Incense]

I don't really see how it could be bad. It's a bit like a teaser if you ask me. "See these sweet apps? Get all of them and more by switching to KDE!" Plus, just like the kids already using firefox, thunderbird, openoffice, and all that open source goodness, it just makes the switch that much better.

[Erunno]

In the end it boils down to people feeling an itch they have to scratch. It's not like you can actually forbid people to spend their free time porting applications to Windows. Firefox, Thunderbird and OpenOffice are available on Windows as well and I never saw someone state them as the reason for not switching. Last but certainly not least: I don't like withholding applications although it would be technically possible because it limits the user's choice. I don't wish to force people into Linux by locking them in with applications. Ideally they should switch because of technical superiority of the underlying (under the DE that is) technology and due to supporting the idea of Free Software.

And by the way, KDE is not a Linux desktop alone although a majority of users can be probably found there. It's meant to be a desktop environment for all Unix flavors.

[Incense]

In the end it boils down to people feeling an itch they have to scratch. It's not like you can actually forbid people to spend their free time porting applications to Windows. Firefox, Thunderbird and OpenOffice are available on Windows as well and I never saw someone state them as the reason for not switching. Last but certainly not least: I don't like withholding applications although it would be technically possible because it limits the user's choice. I don't wish to force people into Linux by locking them in with applications. Ideally they should switch because of technical superiority of the underlying (under the DE that is) technology and due to supporting the idea of Free Software.

And by the way, KDE is not a Linux desktop alone although a majority of users can be probably found there. It's meant to be a desktop environment for all Unix flavors.

I agree that they should switch because Linux is better then what they were using, but I would much rather see people swtich because of they see these really cool apps installed by default like Amarok and Krita, instead of coming over because they saw a beryl video on you tube and want to spin the cube.

[FranMichaels]

Hmm. When I used Windows I used a lot of Free Software apps, so it made it much easier to migrate. I mean firefox is here too :)

I think that those on the fence of switching, it might make it easier if they are used to the applications and DE. I would hazard a guess that you'd get better performance out of Linux as the base rather than the NT kernel...

Now that I use GNU/Linux full time, I rather all the good apps runs on it... Greedy me would suggest this: Provide the tarballs, but don't offer a pre-compiled win binary.
:evil:

The Windows releases would likely be a little behind.
:-({|= Users wanting the latest and greatest would have to try to compile it, (using the Ubuntu repositories has been much smoother getting dependencies, versus when I tried to compile things in cygwin with mingw) There will likely be snapshots and unofficial Windows port executables provided by savvy users, and thus the main devs don't have to bother making a win exe.

[Bloodfen Razormaw]

If anyone thought KDE was ever about Linux you were fooling yourself. It is a free desktop, not a Linux desktop. It has always been supported on non-Linux operating systems. FreeBSD and Solaris are both primary platforms for KDE already. It isn't the KDE developers' jobs to prop up Linux. Same goes for nearly every other free desktop environment. Is it "bad for Linux" that Sun can include a GNOME-based desktop with their software? Who cares, the world doesn't revolve around Linux.

[GSF1200S]

If anyone thought KDE was ever about Linux you were fooling yourself. It is a free desktop, not a Linux desktop. It has always been supported on non-Linux operating systems. FreeBSD and Solaris are both primary platforms for KDE already. It isn't the KDE developers' jobs to prop up Linux. Same goes for nearly every other free desktop environment. Is it "bad for Linux" that Sun can include a GNOME-based desktop with their software? Who cares, the world doesn't revolve around Linux.

I agree with you. I mean sure.. Linux happens to be one of the leaders for KDE, but not the only OS to use it. And your right, the world doesnt revolve around Linux.

That said, im content with where Linux is in relation to Windows. It may not have access to all the commercial programs that Windows has, but its OSS is quite good, and in many cases have better programs than are available to Windows.

That said, I want it to at least stay that way, if not get better in the future. Im just worried that KDE4 to Windows might benefit Windows immensely, while Linux will start to fall behind the loop. I just dont want Linux to fall into the stone ages because of this. I dont think this will happen, but my doubt is reason enough for this thread.

Sure we still have gnome, but that will not surpass KDE in terms of programs. As it is, however subjective this opinion is, KDE apps IN MY OPINION are better than gnome ones, despite some exceptions and the charisma of Gnome in general.

[Foxmike]

Well, a lot of very good gtk-based applications are already ported to Windows, in wich: Abiword, Gnumeric, Inkscape, GIMP, Grisbi (accounting)...

As well, there is Firefox and OpenOffice.org available for windows. Did that make any difference?

I personnally don't think that anywone will install a different OS and make the migration for just Amarok or Kirta, no mather how good they are. Migrating from an OS to an other is not an easy thing and requires a lot more than kool mp3 player/manager program to convince someone to make the switch.

On another hand, I think that porting good applications to Windows is like preaching by the example. A lot of complains comes from the fact that some companies refuses to port their apps to Linux. Can Linux apps devs be smarter than them and make their work available to anybody that would like to use it? A lot of people would like to have the liberty to use any app they want on their desktop, even if sometimes they would have to pay for it. Why then those same people would like to refuse their good applications to those that are not using the same OS?

[Incense]

The more I think about it, the more I think that this is a very good move. I would actually love to see all KDE (and Gnome) apps ported to other platforms. I use windows at work, and run many portable open source apps off my usb drive. I would love to add K3B, Basket Notes, Kontact, and kmail to my list of apps I can use anywhere. Maybe we can start a trend and we'll see companies like Adobe port some apps over to linux. ... a guy can dream can't he?

[GSF1200S]

The more I think about it, the more I think that this is a very good move. I would actually love to see all KDE (and Gnome) apps ported to other platforms. I use windows at work, and run many portable open source apps off my usb drive. I would love to add K3B, Basket Notes, Kontact, and kmail to my list of apps I can use anywhere. Maybe we can start a trend and we'll see companies like Adobe port some apps over to linux. ... a guy can dream can't he?

Sure can.. but the world operates off $ and not wants/desires/ dreams ;)

I hear you though.. I just hope that some future commercial entitys will realize the potential of Qt, and create applications based on the KDE platform, allowing ports to Linux to made in return. No application stays on top forever, and so perhaps with the new "bad-boy" apps being written in Qt, Linux will gain some top notch programs eliminating MS's dominance.

Of course, benefits to *nix BSD etc would all be a plus :)

[bailout]

I have to admit that I am looking forward to kde4 so that I can use kde apps on windows and possibly dump linux.:oops:

[GSF1200S]

I have to admit that I am looking forward to kde4 so that I can use kde apps on windows and possibly dump linux.:oops:

I dont whether youre kidding or youre trying to make a point... You could be making a point by saying theres no way people will stop using Linux because now the KDE apps can be used in Windows (which would be rediculous). You could also be.. well.. serious... But, I really really doubt youve been using Linux just for the KDE apps.. theyre good, but you wouldnt have even experienced them until after making the decision to come to the Linux side of computing.

I dont know, im confused? :confused:

[curuxz]

KDE 4 is one of the best things to happen linux ever. Its the best DE coming of age and will vastly improve things once stable.

No one is going to start ditching linux because of this, it will serve only one purpose, as do all the windows open source apps, it will help promote linux use.

Is fire fox bad for linux.....no.

[Erunno]

KDE 4 is one of the best things to happen linux ever. Its the best DE coming of age and will vastly improve things once stable.

Yes, I'm also looking forward to 2010 ;-)

[curuxz]

Yes, I'm also looking forward to 2010 ;-)

lol ;)

[ryno519]

Sure can.. but the world operates off $ and not wants/desires/ dreams ;)

I think you have that backwards. Wants, desires, needs, dreams, etc are driving forces behind a market economy. Money is just a way to procure those things one wants or desires.

Also, thinking monetary incentive is what makes the world go round is a very shallow way of looking at things.

[GSF1200S]

I think you have that backwards. Wants, desires, needs, dreams, etc are driving forces behind a market economy. Money is just a way to procure those things one wants or desires.

Also, thinking monetary incentive is what makes the world go round is a very shallow way of looking at things.

Allow me to rephrase: the world operates of $- your wants/desires/dreams are not as important to someone as their own priorities, and they have no issue doing every immoral thing to get your $ from you.

Monetary incentive isnt the main force as you said- but mankind made money, and its used as a tool to control what possesions/ life you have. Therefore, money becomes the incentive for action, so that this money can be in turn used for wants/desires/dreams.

Not everyone is like this- I for one could care less about money, and ive met others along the way who feel the same. There are good people in the world.

Part of what draws me to Linux, namely Ubuntu, is the demonstration of how people are when united for a universally noteworthy cause (these forums). I believe as a whole though, that human beings are greedy, ignorant, and ruthless creatures that dont bear enough morallity to accompany their scientific intelligence.

As a result, ulterior motives must always be expected and eliminated- and that applies to the implementation of new technologies in software, too.

[Incense]

I have to admit that I am looking forward to kde4 so that I can use kde apps on windows and possibly dump linux.:oops:

I know a lot of people are excited about being able to use Amarok on other systems. If Windows works for you, then there is not reason not to use it. I don't think apps should be tied to a system. I should be able to use Final Cut in Linux or Windows, and play Halo on a Mac or in Linux. I would still run Linux if I could take my apps with me. Linux is more secure, stable, and I'm digging the freedom aspect as well. Anyway, have fun and good luck if you go back to windows. We'll still be here when you're ready to come home. ;)

[plb]

if its kde, its bad

Why because it's more customizable? Or is it because it's technically superior to GNOME? Or maybe because KDE apps tend to be far superior to that of GNOME's?

[anarchist_hippy]

Why because it's more customizable? Or is it because it's technically superior to GNOME? Or maybe because KDE apps tend to be far superior to that of GNOME's?

I think that gnome nor Kde is not "superior" than other one... 'cause their working style is different than other... And It's superiority is changing it's users experiences. I like KDE, 'cause I'm using it beginning of my Linux lifetime... So, I don't like or use Gnome well. So I choose Linux distros with KDE. Gnome one's are not bad, but not useful for me. But, for other user, that uses Gnome too long, doesn't like the KDE... It's all depends user likings...

Whatever, If we turned to question, I don't want to port Linux apps to Windows... 'Cause e.g., Firefox on Windows could be unstable, caused of it's free based built. I think that, this will be better to get distros stable than porting programs to windows ;)

[curuxz]

Why because it's more customizable? Or is it because it's technically superior to GNOME? Or maybe because KDE apps tend to be far superior to that of GNOME's?


Try not to get baited by such stupid comments :)

If people cant think of a adult way of participating in a conversation we should just ignore them, its flame bait :)

Kde rocks and in order for gnome to be good kde does not have to be bad but i guess some people just dont get that.

[bobbybobington]

How could kde4 not be good for linux???? If it had only 80% of the awesomeness the mockups have, it would still be incredibly good.

[Bloodfen Razormaw]

That said, I want it to at least stay that way, if not get better in the future. Im just worried that KDE4 to Windows might benefit Windows immensely, while Linux will start to fall behind the loop. I just dont want Linux to fall into the stone ages because of this. I dont think this will happen, but my doubt is reason enough for this thread.
Firstly, I don't see why porting KDE to Windows would help Windows at the expense of Linux. Solaris is already far superior to Linux in technical terms, but Linux hasn't died off to make way for it simply because KDE and Gnome support it. Secondly, even if it did hurt Linux, it just isn't the fault of KDE developers. It is the fault of Linux vendors who failed to produce a package of equal attractiveness as Microsoft OEMs did. If a vendor released Windows/KDE, would it be any worse than a vendor who shipped, say, PC-BSD? Neither is Linux, after all.


Sure we still have gnome, but that will not surpass KDE in terms of programs. As it is, however subjective this opinion is, KDE apps IN MY OPINION are better than gnome ones, despite some exceptions and the charisma of Gnome in general.
Yes, KDE is far ahead of Gnome and the gap is widening, technically and in userbase, but I don't see the point. Linux doesn't have a monopoly on KDE now, and it won't after the 4.0 release. The real advantage of KDE, as you say, is its top-tier apps, but those apps are top-notch because KDE has a top-notch developer platform. And frankly, right now, there is only one developer platform out there that is competition for KDE, and that is Windows. It makes sense for KDE to be able to compete head on with its only competition. KDE slaughters any other desktop programming platform out there, but Windows dominates the enterprise, and I would very much love to see KDE go head to head with Windows and adopt those enterprise features.

[Iceni]

Amarok for windows? Great! Windows users are lucky. Bye bye winamp and foobar.


Yes, KDE is far ahead of Gnome and the gap is widening, technically and in userbase, but I don't see the point. Linux doesn't have a monopoly on KDE now, and it won't after the 4.0 release. The real advantage of KDE, as you say, is its top-tier apps, but those apps are top-notch because KDE has a top-notch developer platform. And frankly, right now, there is only one developer platform out there that is competition for KDE, and that is Windows. It makes sense for KDE to be able to compete head on with its only competition. KDE slaughters any other desktop programming platform out there, but Windows dominates the enterprise, and I would very much love to see KDE go head to head with Windows and adopt those enterprise features.

I agree. In fact, when KDE 4 is coming out I'll switch to Kubuntu. The apps are awesome and they way they work together is great.

[Incense]

Amarok for windows? Great! Windows users are lucky. Bye bye winamp and foobar.



I agree. In fact, when KDE 4 is coming out I'll switch to Kubuntu. The apps are awesome and they way they work together is great.

Ah, switch to KDE now. The apps in 3.5.7 are still really great! Come on.. do it and you're cool! ;)

BTW KDE apps will also be ported to OSX...

[vexorian]

KDE 4 promises to bring alot of new things to the table. I would imagine it will be more stable, and of course it will be packed full of more options.

The big question mark in my mind is the possible effects that will take place as KDE 4 will be ported to Windows.

Now, for all you KDE gurus who know alot about its development process- how exactly does this porting work? Will they simply port individual programs over to Windows, or will they port the entire desktop environment, allowing one to run the KDE GUI in place of the Windows GUI? If its the latter, than a few things come to the plate...

It could be a really good thing, as commercial and OSS devs will create many awesome programs, maybe even making some of our lacking programs for Linux. We could potentially see an explosion of software for Linux, as one of its prized DE's could be in the Windows world.

However, could this be a two edged sword? With KDE on Windows, one might revel in the glory of KDEs options, without noticing the kernel underneath the GUI... What if KDE becomes involved with its main userbase, which could end up being Windows as it has a larger base of people? In essence, im asking if the introduction of KDE4, however awesome it may be, could hurt the progression of Linux's rise to the desktop.

I dont know exactly- what do you guys think?
Quick question:

was firefox for windows a bad thing?

I would say no.

If anything it makes migration easier, it is now a "familiar face" when you try ubuntu for the first time, at least that was my case.

I've seen KDE4 windows screenshots, and I doubt it would feel as good as if you were using it on the Linux kernel, this is probably bias.

[Bloodfen Razormaw]

If anything it makes migration easier, it is now a "familiar face" when you try ubuntu for the first time, at least that was my case.
This makes an excellent point when generalized. In business environments it is common to mix multiple platforms. It isn't rare for the enterprise to make use of both Windows and Linux systems. It actually makes a business more likely to adopt Linux if they know they can share the same software infrastructure with an existing Windows environment. A business which ends up using KDE apps on Windows has a clear upgrade path to Linux (and other KDE-supported UNIX systems) should the business choose to migrate.