An ornery SOB bashes the Ubuntu bashers. [Archive]

Stormy Eyes

August 10th, 2005, 02:52 AM

I have news for all of the people who bash Ubuntu, bash Linux, or gripe that "Linux isn't ready" for the desktop or for the average user. Linux isn't for everybody. So stop griping about how it's not ready for Grandma, or how there aren't enough commercial games available, or how it doesn't ape Windows enough to satisfy you.

YOU ARE NOT A PAYING CUSTOMER, SO SHUT THE F--- UP.

That's right: if you want to complain, fork over some cash and become a paying customer. Right now, if you use Ubuntu, it's because Mark Shuttleworth and the rest of Canonical was generous enough to make this distribution and provide it free of charge. They'll even send you the f---ing CD, and pay for shipping, if you can't download a copy and burn it yourself. You are not paying for Ubuntu, and therefore you have no right to complain if it doesn't meet your expectations.

If you want to use Linux today, then you're welcome to do so. If you're having trouble, ask constructive, specific questions and you'll eventually get an answer -- and eventually might mean within five minutes, if you're lucky. If you don't want to make the effort, then by all means stick with Windows.

And if you're tired of Windows, but want a OS that's magically configured to do exactly what you want, the way you want it, then shut up and program it. This is Ubuntu, not f---ing Burger King. "Have it your way" is not Ubuntu's slogan. If you want it done your way, then make a f---ing effort.

There are things in GNOME that **** me off -- like the use of Metacity as the default window manager, and Totem as the default video player. Do I complain? NO! I figured out how to make the system work the way I wanted it to work, and did it.

Now, if you're new to Linux but you're willing to make an honest effort, then I personally will welcome you and help you when I can. I'll admit that it can be intimidating if you're used to having your hand held. Independence is often scary for those used to dependence. Freedom can be a pain in the ass.

But if you can't deal with the responsibility that comes with the freedom Linux offers, then stay with Windows. I wouldn't wish users like you on my worst enemies, but if Bill Gates wants you, then he's welcome to you. If you're not prepared to meet Linux halfway, then stay well away. I personally am tired of being kind to those unwilling to make an effort to get what they want.

aysiu

August 10th, 2005, 02:55 AM

I agree.

drizek

August 10th, 2005, 03:01 AM

Its not just canonical, the whole linux community is what creates k/ubuntu. show some respect and know WTF you are on about before you go and start insulting other peoples hard work, WHICH YOU DIDNT ******* PAY FOR.

jdodson

August 10th, 2005, 03:01 AM

This is Ubuntu, not f---ing Burger King. "Have it your way" is not Ubuntu's slogan. If you want it done your way, then make a f---ing effort.

Funny.

There are things in GNOME that **** me off -- like the use of Metacity as the default window manager, and Totem as the default video player. Do I complain? NO! I figured out how to make the system work the way I wanted it to work, and did it.

totem will get better as gstremer gets better, itll take some time tho.

Though StormyEyes, I have to mention that Gnome and Ubuntu are meant for humans right? Meant for humans with a $0 price tag. So if they are providing a service, they would do well to listen to those that they serve. I have to admit, being proactive is better than just flaming away the ol "TEH GNOMEE IS TEH SUCK!!!!11 UBUNTU IS NOPT WINDOSWX~!!!! WHERE IZ MEY GAMEZ DRECT X SUPPRT!!11" I agree with you, instead of bitching put on some gloves and start shoveling.

I do think feedback is good, flaming away because GNU/Linux != Windows is stupid. Wake up call for all you Windows users, GNU/Linux is not Windows, its much different.

Kerberos

August 10th, 2005, 03:03 AM

Out of interest can I bash Red Hat? They charge.

drizek

August 10th, 2005, 03:06 AM

Out of interest can I bash Red Hat? They charge.
did you pay?

and please, bash red hat and not the GPL stuff redhat puts in their distros.

RastaMahata

August 10th, 2005, 03:07 AM

Kerberos

August 10th, 2005, 03:09 AM

did you pay?
No. But I dont think many people here have payed MS quite as much as they should have, so I think its only fair.

Red Hat sucks btw! :D

drizek

August 10th, 2005, 03:12 AM

Woah. My feelings exactly.

Anyway, "bashing" is some times good, making the system even more mature and making it available to even more people.
But yeah, I hate it when people say "Linux sucks" when they dont have any idea what they're talking about.
I think jdodson wrote it better than me:

I agree 100% with you.
bashing and constructive critisism are two different things.

saying "linux sucks" or "x app sucks" is just wrong. going to bugs.kde.org and filing a bug report is good. getting a SVN account and fixing the bug yourself is ideal(although, i must admit i am not capable of doing this, yet).

the complainers are dead weight. they are neither wanted nor needed in the linux community. either contribute something or STFU. but dont go around whining and complaining.

poofyhairguy

August 10th, 2005, 03:26 AM

Stormy might not say things the nicest way, but he is right. Here is the big truth- its worthless to complain about Ubuntu here. I know its the official forum, but there is no official eyes or ears here. I (and the other mods) are the closest things to authority and we don't have anymore say into the Ubuntu project than you do.

Let me say again in another way: the developers don't have time to comb through the forum. You help NO ONE when you post your complaints here, except to maybe keeping me entertained. I love picking apart the antu-Ubuntu arguements.

There is ONE (yes only one) official support feedback channel in Ubuntu: bugzilla

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=1&url=https%3A//bugzilla.ubuntu.com/&ei=MWX5QojpCZDO4QGKjYXwDQ

Thats it. You have a complaint, post it there. Then it will be in the right hands. Posting it here wastes your time, and invites me to pick apart what you didn't mean to say.

And if you're tired of Windows, but want a OS that's magically configured to do exactly what you want, the way you want it, then shut up and program it. This is Ubuntu, not f---ing Burger King. "Have it your way" is not Ubuntu's slogan. If you want it done your way, then make a f---ing effort.

My personal motto for the Ubuntu Forum is:

"You get what you pay for, and maybe a little more."

SqdnGuns

August 10th, 2005, 03:32 AM

http://www.doylerogers.com/images/GPDP03-Audience%20clapping.jpg

RastaMahata

August 10th, 2005, 03:44 AM

bashing and constructive critisism are two different things.

saying "linux sucks" or "x app sucks" is just wrong. going to bugs.kde.org and filing a bug report is good. getting a SVN account and fixing the bug yourself is ideal(although, i must admit i am not capable of doing this, yet).

the complainers are dead weight. they are neither wanted nor needed in the linux community. either contribute something or STFU. but dont go around whining and complaining.
constructive criticism... that was what I was thinking of...

Heh, my mistake :P

oddabe19

August 10th, 2005, 03:50 AM

though i feel this could've been said a little bit... well... nicer (we're supposed to be nice according to the ubuntu philosphy... right?)... I agree.

As one that gives nearly as much to opensource projects as i do to my church (about 10% of what I make... that's 9 or 10% to open source as well)... I agree. It really kinda irks me that those that complain worse then i do give nothing in return... stuff that i do before i complain... like...
A. Test
B. File bugs
C. Give (it still takes hard work people)
D. Yell and scream at my pc.

usually that happens before i complain. But I agree i make things work. Totem-gstreamer pisses me off... so, i make it work (apt-get install totem-xine isn't all that hard).

either way.

agreed... though, i would've used not as colorful language.
well done.

aysiu

August 10th, 2005, 04:00 AM

Ah, a fellow Christian Linux user. Yay.

Stormy Eyes

August 10th, 2005, 04:45 AM

though i feel this could've been said a little bit... well... nicer (we're supposed to be nice according to the ubuntu philosphy... right?)... I agree.

Thanks, but I thought the title of the thread was fair warning. :)

agreed... though, i would've used not as colorful language.
well done.

Aw, come on. I did bleep myself out where appropriate.

TravisNewman

August 10th, 2005, 04:54 AM

Exactly whose hard work am I insulting? I was ranting about idiots; I was not inclined to waste time naming every single name just to satisfy the likes of you.
I don't think drizek was directing that at you, I think he was joining you in bashing the bashers.

Stormy Eyes

August 10th, 2005, 04:55 AM

I don't think drizek was directing that at you, I think he was joining you in bashing the bashers.

If that's the case, then I hope drizek accepts my apology. I'll delete that post.

Stormy Eyes

August 10th, 2005, 04:57 AM

Out of interest can I bash Red Hat? They charge.

I don't bash Red Hat. I just choose not to do business with them.

Stormy Eyes

August 10th, 2005, 05:02 AM

Though StormyEyes, I have to mention that Gnome and Ubuntu are meant for humans right? Meant for humans with a $0 price tag. So if they are providing a service, they would do well to listen to those that they serve.

I'm not saying that the community shouldn't listen to users. I am saying that the community should show no mercy towards those incapable of constructive criticism. It's one thing to say, "GNOME is hard to use because the documentation doesn't cover everything in depth," and quite another to say, "GNOME is hard for J. Random Windows-user to use, therefore Linux isn't ready for the desktop". The former is constructive criticism, and the other is just flaming.

TravisNewman

August 10th, 2005, 05:09 AM

Bashing is never a good thing. Not Red Hat, not Windows, not Ubuntu. Constructive Criticism (aka actually making thought out points instead of just typing on pure instinct) is always a good thing.

Sure, say RedHat sucks. But back yourself up, because a lot of people are going to disagree and call you out on it.

What Stormy chose to call this thread is a misnomer. He is not bashing. He's angry, no freakin' doubt. But he isn't mindlessly bashing. He's criticizing, and those he's criticizing would do good to listen.

poofyhairguy

August 10th, 2005, 05:40 AM

I'm not saying that the community shouldn't listen to users.

We listen around here to requests. We don't mind requests. Its the demands that can go to hell.

npaladin2000

August 10th, 2005, 05:42 AM

Unfortunately, people are used to paying nothing for their OS. Since Windows comes on every PC around, they're used to getting it "for free." They don't realize that if you don't buy a PC you have to purchase the thing...and some don't anyway. One of my clients had 5 PCs running Windows XP when I picked him up....and didn't understand why he had to pay for it when I quoted him a price on a new box. :)

matthew

August 10th, 2005, 06:39 AM

Someone had to say it...I agree with the sentiments.

KiwiNZ

August 10th, 2005, 09:21 AM

I do not agree with all that Stormy has said here , in fact I agree with very little and agree even less with this thread .
Ubuntu ,what is it about? ....

"Ubuntu" is an ancient African word, meaning "humanity to others". Ubuntu also means "I am what I am because of who we all are"

Consider those words we are what we are by our collective being. Which includes the "bashers" or those who have tried Ubuntu and didnt like it,or those who are trying it and are struggling. It further includes those who are hackers and gurus and also those who know nothing but have found it on a magazine cover and have decided to try it .

I do not believe that it is in the spirit of Ubuntu to release a tirade at those whom we may not agree with ,or those who may not like what they have experienced with Ubuntu.

The following is from the Ubuntu code of conduct...

Be respectful. The Ubuntu community and its members treat one another with respect. Everyone can make a valuable contribution to Ubuntu. We may not always agree, but disagreement is no excuse for poor behaviour and poor manners. We might all experience some frustration now and then, but we cannot allow that frustration to turn into a personal attack. It's important to remember that a community where people feel uncomfortable or threatened is not a productive one. We expect members of the Ubuntu community to be respectful when dealing with other contributors as well as with people outside the Ubuntu project, and with users of Ubuntu.

And from someone I regard as one of humanities finest...

"A person with ubuntu is open and available to others, affirming of others, does not feel threatened that others are able and good, for he or she has a proper self-assurance that comes from knowing that he or she belongs in a greater whole."
-- Archbishop Desmond Tutu, in No Future Without Forgiveness

When I first saw this thread my first reaction was that it should be locked ,I have resisted that urge for now.
What I do believe is that we must realise that Linux is no longer a private club for the exclusive use of an elite few from geekdom.
Not all who come here will be blessed with knowledge of Linux that we "think" we have. Or the slightest desire to become gurus,they just want to use ,try it and yes be critical of it. We have to accept that .

And it is also worth remembering that these forums are providing a customer service on behalf of Ubuntu and threads like this are a threat to the good customer service standards we offer and the level of customer experience that can be had here .

fng

August 10th, 2005, 09:38 AM

We should all give canonical a symbolic 1 euro/dollar for each new release ;)

Knome_fan

August 10th, 2005, 09:46 AM

Not all who come here will be blessed with knowledge of Linux that we "think" we have. Or the slightest desire to become gurus,they just want to use ,try it and yes be critical of it. We have to accept that .

I totally agree and I'd also like to add that constantly pointing out that people didn't pay for Ubuntu and so shouldn't expect anything out of it does great injustice to Ubuntu. It makes Ubuntu sound like some little hobbyist playground and I don't really think one should and could describe Ubuntu like this.

However, I'd also like to point out that Stormy Eyes already pointed out what he really meant with this thread:

I'm not saying that the community shouldn't listen to users. I am saying that the community should show no mercy towards those incapable of constructive criticism. It's one thing to say, "GNOME is hard to use because the documentation doesn't cover everything in depth," and quite another to say, "GNOME is hard for J. Random Windows-user to use, therefore Linux isn't ready for the desktop". The former is constructive criticism, and the other is just flaming.
I can agree with this sentiment.

nocturn

August 10th, 2005, 10:56 AM

While I agree that not having paid anything is not an argument to exclude users from discussions, I do think that if you get this great system entirely for free, you should respect the people who made it.

That is, offer any critisism you have, but do it through the proper channels and in a constructive way.

agger

August 10th, 2005, 11:03 AM

... if you can't deal with the responsibility that comes with the freedom Linux offers, then stay with Windows. I wouldn't wish users like you on my worst enemies, but if Bill Gates wants you, then he's welcome to you. If you're not prepared to meet Linux halfway, then stay well away. I personally am tired of being kind to those unwilling to make an effort to get what they want.

Strange - I was going to write something about this very topic, i.e. the bashers
who seem bent on sabotaging this forum. You beat me to it with a slightly
different take - great! :-)

N'Jal

August 10th, 2005, 11:28 AM

Ah, a fellow Christian Linux user. Yay.

A thrid here!

Stormy Eyes

August 10th, 2005, 02:55 PM

What I do believe is that we must realise that Linux is no longer a private club for the exclusive use of an elite few from geekdom.

That is why I try to help those who are struggling but honestly making an effort to make Linux work for them. My argument is with those who expect everything to be handed to them with no effort on their part. My argument is with those who take no responsibility for themselves when it comes to computing and think that posting "Linux isn't ready for 'the desktop' rants" on a forum that the developers don't read is going to magically make Linux better.

Such rants don't make Linux better. They just offend people like me, who didn't have the benefit of a forum like this when they were newbies, but had to get by with man pages and a tattered, second-hand copy of Running Linux.

I know you don't agree with my anger and contempt for the Linux-bashers. I understand your reasons for not agreeing. But I stand by what I said, because I think it needed to be said.

If you choose to lock this thread, that's your decision. You're a moderator, after all, and I'm just a guest.

Knome_fan

August 10th, 2005, 02:58 PM

They just offend people like me, who didn't have the benefit of a forum like this when they were newbies, but had to get by with man pages and a tattered, second-hand copy of Running Linux.

I think I'm close to tears right now. ;-)

jdodson

August 10th, 2005, 05:20 PM

constructive criticism... that was what I was thinking of...

This is just a side comment, well maybe not, but criticism is never constructive. Construction builds, criticism destroys in hopes of rebuilding a better unit. Constructive criticism is not only an oxymoron, it is just a nice way of saying "I want you to change something," wherein if the person listens, which is rare, they will be doing something different. Its not like they are building on the bad idea, they are generally changing directions.

matthew

August 10th, 2005, 06:01 PM

I should add to my previous comments. By agreeing with the OP what I meant was most definitely NOT that I get frustrated with newbies asking questions. We have all been there (and I still am from time to time). What I get tired of is people with a strong negative attitude and a chip on their shoulder who want to pick a fight in their first post. Some thoughts that I think would be helpful for newbies.

1. Dont automatically assume Ubuntu/Linux/whatever software you are trying to use is broken just because you didn't get it working right off. It might be, but approach the problem with a bit of humility and you will be treated with great kindness and gentleness. Approach the problem with an accusation and you are more likely to be greeted with silence or (less likely in this forum than in other places) even harsh, defensive posts.

2. It is generally considered polite to do a bit of research before you post a new question. I don't mean you need to read a library's worth of books and write a doctoral thesis, just look for your topic in these forums and on Google first. A lot of the time you will find the answer there. Lots of people are new and most of the basic questions have been asked at least once. If/when you find a thread that relates to your topic, read all of it before you post. If you don't understand after that, than post and we will be more than happy to assist cheerfully.

3. To the extent you are able please try to be specific in your post. "My sound doen't work" as a post isn't likely to elicit a helpful response. Describe your system. What hardware do you have? What program are you trying to use? What happens? Give as much detail as you can without being redundant.

Okay, </rant> I feel better.

GreyFox503

August 11th, 2005, 08:24 AM

Give the man a break. Being tech support of any kind will grind your nerves, whether sooner or later (even if its just your family and friends).

Some people think to seem they deserve it, and are not grateful when they get help.

KiwiNZ

August 11th, 2005, 09:17 AM

Yes some folks ask for help the wrong way , and yes some folks blast off and bash a distro on their first post.
An some of what Stormy said in his post had merit. The whole post was destroyed in my eyes by the large bold STFU line . That is simply not the type of post I like to see here .

Two wrongs do not make a right . Tolerence is more likely to suceed .

Stormy Eyes

August 11th, 2005, 02:31 PM

An some of what Stormy said in his post had merit. The whole post was destroyed in my eyes by the large bold STFU line . That is simply not the type of post I like to see here .

I won't deny that what I said was rude. It was meant to be. I think that those who bash Ubuntu and expect everything to work like magic, no matter how exotic their requirements, are rude and ungrateful. As such, they deserve rudeness in return. I think I've stated before that I do not ascribe to the ideal of ubuntu. I'm more of a lex talionis kind of guy: repay kindness with kindness, respect with respect, and rudeness with rudeness.

Lord Illidan

August 11th, 2005, 02:35 PM

Yeah! If people have enough time to go on the net and bash Ubuntu or type in thousands of articles bashing Linux, then they had enough time to learn how to use Linux properly!

dataw0lf

August 11th, 2005, 04:28 PM

I won't deny that what I said was rude. It was meant to be. I think that those who bash Ubuntu and expect everything to work like magic, no matter how exotic their requirements, are rude and ungrateful. As such, they deserve rudeness in return. I think I've stated before that I do not ascribe to the ideal of ubuntu. I'm more of a lex talionis kind of guy: repay kindness with kindness, respect with respect, and rudeness with rudeness.

Ain't that the truth. Preach it, brotha man.

Stormy Eyes

August 11th, 2005, 04:34 PM

Ain't that the truth. Preach it, brotha man.

Thanks. I'm glad I'm not the only BOFH (or BPFH (Bastard Programmer from Hell)) here.

RastaMahata

August 12th, 2005, 03:10 AM

This is just a side comment, well maybe not, but criticism is never constructive. Construction builds, criticism destroys in hopes of rebuilding a better unit. Constructive criticism is not only an oxymoron, it is just a nice way of saying "I want you to change something," wherein if the person listens, which is rare, they will be doing something different. Its not like they are building on the bad idea, they are generally changing directions.
Maybe it's my lack of english "word" knowledge, but what I really meant was "Feedback may have lots of different faces. If your users arent happy with a product, they can bash, or they can give positive feedback (actually telling what's wrong). Both kinds of feedback must be taken seriously, and the developer must know when to listen, and when to ignore."

I just dont like it when people dont say WHY they hate something. "I hate ubuntu/linux because I cant connect to the internet!" is just stupid. But "I hate ubuntu/linux because I just cant figure out how to configure my adsl connection!" can be taken like feedback (bad enough though) as you know that ubuntu/linux should give users an easier graphical way to configure their adsl connection, rather than through the console.

From my personal experience, there are always people who just want to bash your project, some times for the fun of it, to look cool, or just plain hate. But I've always tried to make my works better, not getting down, and getting jaw drops from them when I present them an in-your-face piece of work. It's not about competence or getting sick of bashers... it's about shutting them up with an amazing product, and feeling happy about it ;)

I love University projects ;)

KiwiNZ

August 12th, 2005, 04:21 AM

Thanks. I'm glad I'm not the only BOFH (or BPFH (Bastard Programmer from Hell)) here.

My final word on this as I think this thread should die a natural death is

BOFH is an IT attitude that should be extinct . And If any of my staff at work display it they get the message loud and clear from me .

And its an attitude that should not prevail on these forums .

rjwood

August 12th, 2005, 05:38 AM

Fasinating thread!! Obviosly Stormy Eyes is a passionate person. Good for him. I love passion. Maybe a little young too--maybe not! But, I am sure that everyone here is perhaps a better person for all that has been said. Seems to me that pehaps there should be a private type of forum for people who do contribute to blow off steam with their fellow Ubuntuees. I also agree with the wisdom to permit this to die a natural death. I know that it must not be easy. Maybe the best response in an open forum is to say to the 'bashers' "Good Luck to you, We will be here if you choose to return". I would resist the temptation to reply in kind because that may be exactly what they want. Anyway for those who say it needed to be said -- who is it being said to-- other Ubuntu devotees (most of them anyway). Well. Thanks for the lesson and thanks for the passion and wisdom all. :wink: