Incest Thread

[TheMono]

Specifically, see here:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=555062

Why is this inappropriate when posted in the backyard? Given there was already a thread about Incest and Paedophilia with regards to the German government? I certainly wasn't advocating incest, and I was soliciting a serious viewpoint from people as to why we have laws governing the behaviour of consenting adults in this situation, as I plainly said in the thread.

In the context of backyard discussions, I certainly do not think this is inappropriate.

While the closer may have strong moral views against it, this doesn't mean it should never be discussed. The reason given for closing was

"I don't think we need a thread about incest."

Well, we don't per se need a thread about anything in the backyard. But as a topic, I believe it is every bit as interesting as many others there.

[matthew]

This is a tech support forum for Linux, specifically Ubuntu. We have a Cafe for fun, off topic posting. We have the Backyard for more serious topics like politics, for example.

I don't see any benefit to our users from a discussion of whether incest should be legal or not.

Not only do I support our moderator's action in closing the thread, I have also moved it to the Jail so that it cannot be viewed.

[KiwiNZ]

This is a tech support forum for Linux, specifically Ubuntu. We have a Cafe for fun, off topic posting. We have the Backyard for more serious topics like politics, for example.

I don't see any benefit to our users from a discussion of whether incest should be legal or not.

Not only do I support our moderator's action in closing the thread, I have also moved it to the Jail so that it cannot be viewed.


I to support this action.

[TheMono]

"We have the Backyard for more serious topics like politics, for example."

The issue of the regulation of sexuality in a (technically) secular society is plainly a political issue, and a very serious one at that.

By your rationale, what advantage is there in the thread that is present on Gay Marriage, a further example of sexual regulation?

If it is because incest is not a politica issue, this is incorrect. For example, in Sweden, a law was passed in 2006 legalising marriage between half-siblings for the reasons I cited in the thread.

I still fail to see how this does not fit into a forum for political discussion.

[TheMono]

Can I suggest reading the following (a reference from a recent religious studies paper on this issue) for a discussion of the political issues.

Wolf, Arthur P, and William H. Durham. 2004. Inbreeding, Incest, and the Incest Taboo: The State of Knowledge at the Turn of the Century. Stanford: Stanford University Press.

[matthew]

I still fail to see how this does not fit into a forum for political discussion.Because the overall purpose of these forums is not political in nature. There are literally thousands of better places on the internet for this discussion. An all ages, work-safe, Linux support forum isn't really an appropriate venue.

Gender issues are not necessarily sexual. Incest is. Sexual topics are a grey area in the Forums Code of Conduct and we give staff the ability to make decisions using their best judgment in those sorts of situations. Clearly, sexually explicit material is banned, but a discussion of gender issues and the politics of the linux community would not be. Somewhere in the middle we have to try to use what wisdom we have in making these forums accessible and useful to as wide a range of people as possible without succumbing to the extreme viewpoints on either end (ban everything I don't like vs. allow everything all the time).

We (you and the forums staff) disagree on this one. We made a decision based on what we think is best for the community and we think it's a pretty good one. Unless I see a really good reason why discussing the merits of legalized incest would be useful to a linux community, I am inclined to leave it closed. Sorry.

[TheMono]

Thank you for the reply.

So, for instance, a discussion on 2003's overturning of Texas' anti-sodomy law by the U.S. Supreme Court is also inappropriate for these forums as a solely sexual issue?

I wasn't under the impression that the backyard in particular was an all ages safe for work area in the same way the rest of the forum is.

The reason I posted the thread here rather than other parts of the internet is because I identify with the people on this forum, and they are normally able to engage in reasoned debate on an issue. The politics of members of these forums is often extremely libertarian, and I was interested whether this would extend to something that, to most people is generally morally wrong.

From my experience in the thread discussing abortion punishments recently, I believed that as a community we could discuss this without it becoming at all sexually explicit. I presume that it is not against the forum rules to solicit comments from others on this thread? If, of course, people heavily weigh in in favour of your decision in closing and moving the thread, then I will accept the judgement. But as it stands I still strongly hold the view that while incest is something people will have strong feelings about (indeed, I hold strong feelings against it as well), however despite these feelings it is still potentially an extremely interesting political issue with regards to the regulation of sexuality.



On another note, is it not possibly to edit comments in the resolution forum?

[TheMono]

To refer to the "gentle reminder" thread:

People talked a lot about free speech, etc., and while it wasn't actually necessary since these forums are privately owned and have a very clear set of posting guidelines, the Backyard was created for topics that aren't necessarily appropriate for work, etc., or that most users would want to avoid.

Note: the Ubuntu Forums are intended for all ages (General Audiences admitted), the Backyard is not intended to be an atmosphere that would be harsh or inappropriate for children (Adults only or Restricted...), but rather a place where more leeway is given (Parental Guidance suggested) and where more controversial topics may be discussed, topics that some may want to avoid altogether.


While obviously a discussion on "incest experiences" or the like would be inappropriate, I believe that the thread on incest laws is consistent with the goals of the backyard I have quoted above.

[matthew]

First, deciding what topics are appropriate and what may not be is not an activity we relish, nor is it one in which we engage frequently. We try to be fair and evenhanded, but we are not perfect and we admit that.

Instead of comparing your topic to others, please try to keep the discussion to whether there is any merit in discussing the legalization of incest with a bunch of computer geeks (using the term as a badge of honor...). I still can't see the benefit of the discussion.

Yes, that could be said about a myriad of things in the Backyard. We only act on things that we notice ourselves, or things that are reported by users. None of us actively search threads anywhere in the forums looking for things to act on. Perhaps that is why some things stay open and others don't

[matthew]

On another note, is it not possibly to edit comments in the resolution forum?No, it is not possible. That way no one can say, "I never said that."

[TheMono]

No, it is not possible. That way no one can say, "I never said that."

Seems fair.

"First, deciding what topics are appropriate and what may not be is not an activity we relish, nor is it one in which we engage frequently. We try to be fair and evenhanded, but we are not perfect and we admit that."

Yes, I understand this, and please don't take anything I say as personal (this applies to all mods involved in this).

"Instead of comparing your topic to others, please try to keep the discussion to whether there is any merit in discussing the legalization of incest with a bunch of computer geeks (using the term as a badge of honor...). I still can't see the benefit of the discussion."

OK. The reason I compare the topic to others is a question of consistency. You don't see that there is benefit in the discussion. Quite alright. I however, do. I would be very interested in the findings and opinions in such a discussion, as it would be with others who I identify with, as a fellow computer geek. Nothing I can say can change your opinion that it is a meritless thread - as such, it would be a waste of time to try. All I can do is attempt to point to other threads that have been allowed in order to try to show that, even though you see no merit, I do, and the history of what has been allowed would imply that this is allowed too - in the same way one would refer to precedent in a legal matter.

As such, what I'm advocating is a path of least intervention. Where we disagree (on merit of discussing it), and where previous threads have discussed (somewhat?) similar issues, and where we do not know yet whether an incest discussion would have degraded below civility, and where it was in an area designed for political discussion and where a user must have agreed to a code and is warned about possibly offensive content, I believe it is appropriate to allow the thread to continue. If it should degrade into a flamewar (whether at me or others) then I would wholeheartedly support a closing.

[matthew]

As such, what I'm advocating is a path of least intervention. Where we disagree (on merit of discussing it), and where previous threads have discussed (somewhat?) similar issues, and where we do not know yet whether an incest discussion would have degraded below civility, and where it was in an area designed for political discussion and where a user must have agreed to a code and is warned about possibly offensive content, I believe it is appropriate to allow the thread to continue. If it should degrade into a flamewar (whether at me or others) then I would wholeheartedly support a closing.I will give this some consideration and make a decision tomorrow.

[TheMono]

Thank you, that is all I'm asking. Have a good day.

[matthew]

I considered it. I even went to the Backyard and read through several other threads for comparison. I see your point, but I remain unconvinced this is going to be a fruitful topic of discussion.

In addition, I'm choosing to stand behind Vorian and his decision to close the thread, which was appropriate and within his power according to the Backyard rules.

[TheMono]

Vorian's power was never under dispute, it was his judgement I was raising. I sent him a PM asking him to comment in this thread, and it seems he chose not to.

Very well. I'm dissapointed, and I obviously disagree with you, but it's also not my call to make.

[matthew]

Going back to my earlier statement that some topics fall into a bit of a gray area as regards the Forums Code of Conduct, we have given our staff a wide berth to use their best judgment in those indefinite moments. From the Backyard rules (emphasis in red mine)
Finally, in the event a *Moderator* or *Administrator* finds a violation of the rules in this forum, either on their own or while investigating a reported post, they have the power to do any combination of the following using their best judgment:
a. Remove or edit the post.
b. Send the post to the jail.
c. Lock the thread.
d. Give the author of the post an infraction point or multiple points.
e. Ban the user. When in doubt staff should refer decisions for discussion by posting in the staff forums before taking action.
Decisions can be appealed in the Resolution Center, although if there is a clear violation of any part of the codes of conduct decisions will be automatically upheld.
We encourage you to follow these simple rules, so everyone can enjoy this off topic area of Ubuntu Forums. If the rules are violated this section will be moderated to enforce the rules mentioned above.Vorian made a decision based on his best judgment at the time. I happen to concur with his reasoning. Even if I didn't, unless I felt he had overstepped his bounds and done something outside of his authority, I wouldn't choose to overturn his decision.

Sorry to disappoint you. I know we disagree on this one, and that's never fun. Thank you for being respectful of and in the process, though. That is appreciated and shows maturity.

[TheMono]

Sorry to disappoint you. I know we disagree on this one, and that's never fun. Thank you for being respectful of and in the process, though. That is appreciated and shows maturity.

Cheers, and thank you for seriously considering my points. It's all that can be asked of admins and mods - one will never agree with every decision they make, but the sign of a quality admin / mod is one that will engage in reasonable discussion to defend decisions.