to Mark Shuttleworth

[Lary Grant]

Dear Mr. Shuttleworth,

How long until I can walk into my local Staples, Best Buy, or CompUSA and find Ubuntu running on floor models, go up to it, play with it, buy it, and take it home?

[justin whitaker]

Not a bad question...but does Mark actually stop in here?

[Bachstelze]

Moved to the Cafe

[MrKlean]

How much easier can it be ??? Download it free, at home. Run it live on yer computer, and see if you like it. Then install it ! No drive to Staples, BestBuy, or CircuitCity. NO Buying it !! I fail to see the advantages in your idea. You test it live on YOUR computer and see if it runs. It might on the floor model, and not on the one you have at home ! I like that way MUCH better ! The other way sounds more like Microsofts's way ; )

[Lary Grant]

If Bill Gates thought that way, you would be saying "Bill who?"

[az]

If it was up to Mark, that would already be.

It is up to the hardware vendors, really. And the more we, as consumers, demand free and open source, the more we will be given it.

When I shop, I make it a point to mention that I am buying my computer/printer/media player to use with GNU/linux. As far as I am concerned, hardware compatibility is the responsibility of the person I am buying the thing from anyway.

[ThinkBuntu]

When a topic is moved, the moderator should also note which forum it came from. Just a thought.

[Lary Grant]

Is Mark working on making this a reality? If so, what is the priority level?

[Lary Grant]

NO Buying it !!

I meant buying the computer, not the software.

[justin whitaker]

If Bill Gates thought that way, you would be saying "Bill who?"

Ah, I see where you are going with this, and that's not what Ubuntu is about...Mark Shuttleworth does not want to be Bill Gates, he wants to redo/rethink the way we approach software.

Microsoft's business model is the antithesis of the Ubuntu approach. That does not mean that it would not be a great thing to go in and pick up an Ubuntu laptop at Best Buy, but not if it means compromising the values of the project and becoming that which we fear.

[Lary Grant]

Ah, I see where you are going with this, and that's not what Ubuntu is about...Mark Shuttleworth does not want to be Bill Gates, he wants to redo/rethink the way we approach software.

Microsoft's business model is the antithesis of the Ubuntu approach. That does not mean that it would not be a great thing to go in and pick up an Ubuntu laptop at Best Buy, but not if it means compromising the values of the project and becoming that which we fear.

Please explain how having Ubuntu running on floor models and available pre-installed at stores conflicts with the Ubuntu philosophy.

[t0p]

Download it free, at home. Run it live on yer computer, and see if you like it. Then install it ! No drive to Staples, BestBuy, or CircuitCity. NO Buying it !! I fail to see the advantages in your idea. You test it live on YOUR computer and see if it runs. It might on the floor model, and not on the one you have at home ! I like that way MUCH better !

I'm "bandwidth-challenged" (I use a cellphone as a modem... slooow...), so the download-a-cd approach isn't for me. But there's http://shipit.ubuntu.com - free cds through the mail! - and now there's http://shipit.kubuntu.org and http://shipit.xubuntu.org as well!! Perfect!!

In fact, next time I upgrade, I think I'll try shipit.kubuntu.org. I've never really tried KDE for a proper length of time... and lots of folk (including Shuttleworth IIRC) think it's the best of the bunch...

[Lary Grant]

Is the Ubuntu philosophy "open source software should be obscure, hard to find, and its existence should be kept a secret from all but the inner circle"? It think that's the opposite of Ubuntu.

[FuturePilot]

Dear Mr. Shuttleworth,

How long until I can walk into my local Staples, Best Buy, or CompUSA and find Ubuntu running on floor models, go up to it, play with it, buy it, and take it home?

When Bug #1 (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1) gets fixed.

[starcraft.man]

Is the Ubuntu philosophy "open source software should be obscure, hard to find, and its existence should be kept a secret from all but the inner circle"? It think that's the opposite of Ubuntu.

What are you talking about? The stores you listed are big chains, they stock and sell what's in high demand, able to be moved in short time and what the majority want. The majority of people today aren't interested in Linux one bit (mostly because they don't know). Ergo, the stores don't stock/sell Linux preinstalled computers because there isn't enough informed demand to turn a profit in their cycles. It's simple business, it also has very little to do with Mark.

Are you asking for Mark to take a page from MS and bully/bribe these chains into selling Linux? I don't think Mark has that much power, it certainly doesn't sound like the Ubuntu way either.

[koenn]

Is the Ubuntu philosophy "open source software should be obscure, hard to find, and its existence should be kept a secret from all but the inner circle"? It think that's the opposite of Ubuntu.
looking for a fight ?

can you explain how Mr. Shuttleworth could force the manufacturers/assemblers of whatever computers they sell at Staples, Best Buy, or CompUSA to put Ubuntu on it ?

[Lary Grant]

What are you talking about? The stores you listed are big chains, they stock and sell what's in high demand, able to be moved in short time and what the majority want. The majority of people today aren't interested in Linux one bit (mostly because they don't know). Ergo, the stores don't stock/sell Linux preinstalled computers because there isn't enough informed demand to turn a profit in their cycles. It's simple business, it also has very little to do with Mark.

Are you asking for Mark to take a page from MS and bully/bribe these chains into selling Linux? I don't think Mark has that much power, it certainly doesn't sound like the Ubuntu way either.

So the stores don't sell them because there is no demand because people don't know it exists because the stores don't sell them....

[Lary Grant]

Please don't confuse methods with results. Are you saying Bill's methods are the only way to get his results?

[koenn]

Please don't confuse methods with results. Are you saying Bill's methods are the only way to get his results?
what are you referring to ?

[Lary Grant]

So the stores don't sell them because there is no demand because people don't know it exists because the stores don't sell them....

BTW, every produce on the market has faced this problem and overcome it.

[t0p]

Are you asking for Mark to take a page from MS and bully/bribe these chains into selling Linux? I don't think Mark has that much power

What do you mean, He hasn't got "that much power"? The Shuttleworth is as a god - He has the power to move amongst the stars! ;)

[Lary Grant]

What do you mean, He hasn't got "that much power"? The Shuttleworth is as a god - He has the power to move amongst the stars! ;)

No one has "the power" to do anything. Yet big things things get done ... because people work at it.

[starcraft.man]

So the stores don't sell them because there is no demand because people don't know it exists because the stores don't sell them....
Ya I know it's a big cycle that kind of feeds back on itself, it's always been that way. That's why Dell rolled Ubuntu out slowly, you didn't see them start to sell all models in all countries they sell to. If there had been no sales, they'd have stop right there. They picked a few models and only the US at first, then they continued to roll out since I guess they saw demand. It is complicated being in business, at the end of the day if you don't sell x you don't make money.

Larry I'd continue to go into this but your making business seem far too simple and it'd take a long time to explain (store business vs online business are two very different worlds on top of that).There are numerous factors that are holding Linux back in retail, not least of which is that the Desktop market is pretty well saturated with Windows/OSX. Mostly I'd say it's apathy. A lot of consumers just want something that they know which works and don't care about Linux or free software. Therefore they buy what's in the store and help perpetuate it, that is exactly why the grass roots promotion of Ubuntu has been so essential.

[Lary Grant]

Keep it simple... Does Mark want to see Ubuntu running on floor models in BestBuy? If so, what is he doing about it?

[Lary Grant]

Did Henry Ford lament that the market was saturated with horses and buggies? (and BTW it most certainly was)

[LowSky]

Why not go to a large chain store and put a live cd in it. Then walk away.

Chack back in an few hours to see if Ubuntu is stll running.

[p_quarles]

Did Henry Ford lament that the market was saturated with horses and buggies? (and BTW it most certainly was)
As much as I love Linux, I don't really think the current state of the Linux desktop is to Windows as an internal combustion engine is to livestock.

[koenn]

Did Henry Ford lament that the market was saturated with horses and buggies? (and BTW it most certainly was)
No, he build cars.
He didn't stop at wondering out loud why there weren't any cheap, small cars for the common people or call on other people to do the job.

[starcraft.man]

Keep it simple... Does Mark want to see Ubuntu running on floor models in BestBuy? If so, what is he doing about it?
Answer to first question, is ultimately yes. As I indicated though, there is little he can do. The in store stock business model is very much built around buying lots and selling quick, and Linux isn't a certain sale like a bunch of iPods is.

And you can't keep talk of business simple, because it isn't.


Did Henry Ford lament that the market was saturated with horses and buggies? (and BTW it most certainly was)
As p_quarles pointed out this is apples and oranges. The engine and car represented a substantial leap forward in technology. Linux on computers is very much a horizontal move, it is a desktop like Windows and OSX and unless you value it's pros then you've no need for it. That is why people need to know it's pros, demand it and then it will be sold to them. In addition, the simple act of selling free software OS like Linux is anti-business, it undermines in a way the whole software sale section in these stores as little if any of them are needed on Linux. Therefore it's even more against these stores interest to sell an OS that doesn't need the software they are selling.

[mbeierl]

Okay, so maybe it's not on the floor, but everyone should know that you can buy computers from Dell with Ubuntu pre-installed:

http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/ubuntu?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs

[Lary Grant]

Go read the history... livestock had plenty of advantages over cars... for one thing, horses could operate on all the roads available at the time, every season of the year, whereas cars could only operate on the very limited amount of paved roads, and even those would be impassible for part of the year. Also, gas stations were hard to find outside of cities, whereas horse feed was available in every town and farm.

I'll leave the analogies of "roads" and "fuel" to computers as an exercise for the reader.

[Lary Grant]

Also, the customers of the time were not at all interested in trying out complicated contraptions that didn't work all the time. They just wanted to get where they needed to go and get their work done, and a horse worked just fine for that.

But despite all this, we got to where we are today.

[p_quarles]

Go read the history... livestock had plenty of advantages over cars... for one thing, horses could operate on all the roads available at the time, every season of the year, whereas cars could only operate on the very limited amount of paved roads, and even those would be impassible for part of the year. Also, gas stations were hard to find outside of cities, whereas horse feed was available in every town and farm.

I'll leave the analogies of "roads" and "fuel" to computers as an exercise for the reader.
Sorry, but highlighting the differences hardly does anything to improve your apples and oranges analogy.

Anyway, if you want to know what Shuttleworth is doing about this, you should write him. I seriously doubt he reads this forum on a regular basis, but presumably he reads his mail.

[aysiu]

Mark Shuttleworth has business sense and has been able to make hundreds of millions. If you think you can do better, go ahead.

Think about it. Ubuntu came out in October 2004. It's now September 2007 (less than three years later), and Ubuntu has saturated the news and DistroWatch, and it now comes preinstalled on Dell computers. Ubuntu developers and Mark Shuttleworth have not been sitting on their butts twiddling their thumbs this whole time.

Read more here:
http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/131

[arbulus]

To be honest, I think that Bug #1 will work itself out in time.

Right now, Microsoft still has the monopoly and they've had it for a long time. But the reason they had it was the youth of the personal computer market and it's relative luxury status. They jumped in when the industry was young and took hold in a market where people at large didn't know anything about computers, and most couldn't even afford them. (When Apple's Lisa debuted, it cost nearly $10,000) So you didn't have that many people using computers, much less understanding them. So it was easy for Microsoft to take hold of the industry and "help people understand" what to do with their machines.

And that's why you see Microsoft everywhere. It's just been their strangle-hold on the market that has kept them on OEMs machines. People just assume that if you get a computer, you get Windows. Though, for a great deal of computer users, they don't even understand what an operating system is or why it's important.

But things have changed. Computers are nearly as omnipresent in homes as televisions are. It's rare to find someone who doesn't have a computer at home. (I live in the US, btw, so I'm just comparing in my experience). Now that computers have become affordable, user-configurable, and practical, Microsoft really has no relevance in the way they once did. People can build their own computers and write their own software for them. Microsoft doesn't have to hold everyone's hand anymore and lead them on how to use a computer. People are taking their computing experience in their own hands now, and the fact that more people are much more educated about computers now coupled with the affordability and ubiquity means that people now have the power. People no longer want to be told what they have to do with their computer, they want to do what THEY want and tailor their computing experience to fit their own needs, not the needs that some corporation tells them they should have.

Microsofts dominance is waning. The growth of Linux of late is very impressive and Ubuntu has really raised the bar in that area. I mean, the fact that Ubuntu can come pre-installed on Dell's is a giant leap for the Linux community. Now Lenovo is looking at a pre-installed model as well (and Ubuntu has blown everyone else away in their online poll for which distro to use).

You also see people all over rejecting Microsoft's OOXML format as a standard, choosing ODF instead. You see governmental agencies moving to a Linux infrastructure. You see schools moving to Linux.

It's getting there. What we need right now is patience and determination. We just need to be determined to make Ubuntu, and all other Linux distros, the best they can be and show that Linux is not a better Windows or OS X, but a better operating system. And as long as we can keep doing that, the playing field will level and and you may see Ubuntu pre-installed on machines in your local electronics store one day soon.

[happysmileman]

Lary Grant: As someone said Ubuntu's been out for only 3 years. It is far more popular and has far more of a market share than Micrsoft did in 1984 (3 years after getting contract to provide a CP/M OS), so to answer your original question, Mark is doing a lot more than Bill ever did at first, and is doing it more successfully

[James7]

Why not go to a large chain store and put a live cd in it. Then walk away.

Chack back in an few hours to see if Ubuntu is stll running.

This bloke has a cool site where you can see this in action: http://www.manucornet.net/pcjacking/

:D

[justin whitaker]

Please explain how having Ubuntu running on floor models and available pre-installed at stores conflicts with the Ubuntu philosophy.

It does so to the extent that Shuttleworth emulates Bill Gates, assuming he could apply the same leverage.

[LT1Caprice57L]

Ubuntu would theoretically reduce the price of a PC it's installed on, because the manufacturer doesn't pay $300 for MS Windows.

That's theoretically at least $250 knocked off the price, right there (to figure in that they're gonna grab at least $50 for extra profit)

[Lary Grant]

Sorry, but highlighting the differences hardly does anything to improve your apples and oranges analogy.

I am not highlighting the differences, but the similarities, to show that it is not apples and oranges. I left it as an exercise for the reader, but...

substitute "roads" and "gas stations" for "hardware with proprietary drivers" and "proprietary software"

[maddog39]

Hmmm... this is a really good question and too lazy to read the rest of the topic lol, so I think hes trying to say, when can he play with and buy a new floor model at a major electronics retailer.

[Lary Grant]

Hmmm... this is a really good question and too lazy to read the rest of the topic lol, so I think hes trying to say, when can he play with and buy a new floor model at a major electronics retailer.

Not necessarily buy the floor model... but have the floor model available... to show that an option to Windows actually exists.

[t0p]

Shuttleworth chose the name "ubuntu" for this distro. He was stressing humanity. He also stresses Debian-style Free Software ethics - the unfree codecs don't come pre-installed, you gotta go click for 'em.

Shuttleworth obviously does not want to stoop to the unethical tactics used by the proprietary competition (and, sadly, by some other distros). The shipit promotion clearly demonstrates that he wants Ubuntu to be, to borrow a googlian phrase, "not evil".

So, Ubuntu has entered the competiton purposely "handicapped". Yet look how far it's come in the few years of its existence!

Shuttleworth should be commended for his achievement, not goaded on to adopt un-"not evil" tactics.

[Lary Grant]

Shuttleworth obviously does not want to stoop to the unethical tactics used by the proprietary competition (and, sadly, by some other distros). The shipit promotion clearly demonstrates that he wants Ubuntu to be, to borrow a googlian phrase, "not evil".



Why are people putting words in my mouth? I never even remotely said that Shuttleworth should use Gates' tactics, but several posters seem to have "heard" that.

As I said earlier... there is a difference between results and tactics.

For example, I may want to become as wealthy as a movie star. Does that mean I have to become a movie star? Perhaps there are other ways to become wealthy.

[p_quarles]

I am not highlighting the differences, but the similarities, to show that it is not apples and oranges. I left it as an exercise for the reader, but...

substitute "roads" and "gas stations" for "hardware with proprietary drivers" and "proprietary software"


Go read the history... livestock had plenty of advantages over cars... for one thing, horses could operate on all the roads available at the time, every season of the year, whereas cars could only operate on the very limited amount of paved roads, and even those would be impassible for part of the year. Also, gas stations were hard to find outside of cities, whereas horse feed was available in every town and farm.
So the similarities would be:
1) Horses can operate on more terrain types than cars
2) Horses can operate during more weather conditions than early automobiles could
3) Automobiles require petroleum fuel, which was not widely available throughout the country during the early days of Ford

Those, I'm afraid, are dissimilarities. Anyway, my original point was that cars and horses are far more dissimilar to one another (in terms of technology, required resources, maintenance, capabilities) than are Windows and desktop Linux.

I'm an English teacher. I detest bad analogies.

[t0p]

Why are people putting words in my mouth? I never even remotely said that Shuttleworth should use Gates' tactics, but several posters seem to have "heard" that.

As I said earlier... there is a difference between results and tactics.

For example, I may want to become as wealthy as a movie star. Does that mean I have to become a movie star? Perhaps there are other ways to become wealthy.

So what you're asking is: Why hasn't Shuttleworth innovated a brand-new, ethical way to become close to as successful as Microsoft, in a market that Microsoft has a historical near-monopoly of?

I haven't got the slightest idea.

[Lary Grant]

So the similarities would be:
1) Horses can operate on more terrain types than cars
2) Horses can operate during more weather conditions than early automobiles could
3) Automobiles require petroleum fuel, which was not widely available throughout the country during the early days of Ford

Those, I'm afraid, are dissimilarities. Anyway, my original point was that cars and horses are far more dissimilar to one another (in terms of technology, required resources, maintenance, capabilities) than are Windows and desktop Linux.

I'm an English teacher. I detest bad analogies.

What is wrong with the analogy? Linux does not operate well on hardware designed to run under Windows. Lots of proprietary software runs on Windows, not Linux. Etc.

[koenn]

I never even remotely said that Shuttleworth should use Gates' tactics, but several posters seem to have "heard" that.


If Bill Gates thought that way, you would be saying "Bill who?"
I can kinda understand how that would give the hmm ... impression that you'd like Suttleworth to do something along the lines of what Gates / Microsoft did with Windows.

[aysiu]

I can kinda understand how that would give the hmm ... impression that you'd like Suttleworth to do something along the lines of what Gates / Microsoft did with Windows.
Lary Grant was responding to this post:
How much easier can it be ??? Download it free, at home. Run it live on yer computer, and see if you like it. Then install it ! No drive to Staples, BestBuy, or CircuitCity. NO Buying it !! I fail to see the advantages in your idea. You test it live on YOUR computer and see if it runs. It might on the floor model, and not on the one you have at home ! I like that way MUCH better ! The other way sounds more like Microsofts's way ; ) Lary Grant is talking about selling preinstalled desktops in actual stores (not just online). The person who said How much easier can it be? is talking about keeping computers Windows preinstalled and then forcing users to install their own alternative OS themselves.

I don't see what desiring preinstalled Ubuntu computers has to do with shady business practices. It's common knowledge that most people do not know what an OS is or have any desire to install their own OS. They like to buy computers with everything working and little extra configuration. Preinstalling Ubuntu on computers for sale would be a great goal. In fact, that is the goal of Ubuntu, and Mark Shuttleworth would like this.

If you don't believe me, look at the language in Bug #1 (I'll bold the pertinent sections):
Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC marketplace. This is a bug, which Ubuntu is designed to fix.

Non-free software is holding back innovation in the IT industry, restricting access to IT to a small part of the world's population and limiting the ability of software developers to reach their full potential, globally. This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.
Steps to repeat:
1. Visit a local PC store.
What happens:
2. Observe that a majority of PCs for sale have non-free software pre-installed.
3. Observe very few PCs with Ubuntu and free software pre-installed.
What should happen:
1. A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software like Ubuntu.
2. Ubuntu should be marketed in a way such that its amazing features and benefits would be apparent and known by all.
3. The system shall become more and more user friendly as time passes.

[Tomosaur]

What is wrong with the analogy? Linux does not operate well on hardware designed to run under Windows. Lots of proprietary software runs on Windows, not Linux. Etc.

This PC was designed to run Windows - Linux beats the hell out of Windows on it - so I guess that blows your argument out of the water :)

At the end of the day - Mark Shuttleworth is focused on the development of Ubuntu. If he owned big chain stores, then of course he'd make sure Ubuntu was available there. This isn't the case. It's entirely up to the stores what they sell and how they sell it - all Shuttleworth can do is make Ubuntu the best it can be - the natural and slow adoption of Linux will eventually reach a point where vendors start taking notice and offer it on the desktop.

Unfortunately, MS offers incentives to vendors to only stock Windows - made possible by the fact that Windows was the only really successfuly commercially available OS for a long time. MS made a lot of money very quickly, and can 'bribe' vendors to do things their way. Linux developers do not have the funds to do this, and very few would be prepared to 'force' Linux adoption through such unfair tactics.

At the end of the day - Ubuntu and Linux in general is gaining acceptance by desktop users - eventually it'll reach a point where hardware vendors decide there's enough demand to offer it preinstalled. There's little hope of Ubuntu appearing in a box at a shop, because it's free of charge.

[aysiu]

This PC was designed to run Windows - Linux beats the hell out of Windows on it - so I guess that blows your argument out of the water :) Not really. The point is that consumer hardware is almost always designed to work with Windows, and manufacturers make a point of including Windows driver CDs with the actual hardware. If you buy hardware for Linux (even if it's "designed to run Windows"), you still have to check for compatibility by doing research.


At the end of the day - Mark Shuttleworth is focused on the development of Ubuntu. If he owned big chain stores, then of course he'd make sure Ubuntu was available there. This isn't the case. It's entirely up to the stores what they sell and how they sell it - all Shuttleworth can do is make Ubuntu the best it can be - the natural and slow adoption of Linux will eventually reach a point where vendors start taking notice and offer it on the desktop. Sure, that's a huge part of the strategy, but you can't tell me that Shuttleworth and Michael Dell weren't in talks before Dell offered Ubuntu-preinstalled computers on its website. It wasn't simply an Idea Storm democracy. I'm sure there were negotiations, and I'm sure even now Mark Shuttleworth is strategizing how to get Ubuntu preinstalled computers into physical (not just online) stores.

Again, read Bug #1.

[p_quarles]

What is wrong with the analogy? Linux does not operate well on hardware designed to run under Windows. Lots of proprietary software runs on Windows, not Linux. Etc.
Again, it goes back to what I said initially: the automobile was -- irrespective of its disadvantages -- a hugely new and different kind of technology. Basically, it goes a lot faster and further than a horse, takes a lot less space to hosue, doesn't need training, and doesn't defecate (not counting my first car). My point is that desktop Linux simply does not represent that level of revolutionary innovation over the current standard desktop software.

[aysiu]

Again, it goes back to what I said initially: the automobile was -- irrespective of its disadvantages -- a hugely new and different kind of technology. Basically, it goes a lot faster and further than a horse, takes a lot less space to hosue, doesn't need training, and doesn't defecate (not counting my first car). My point is that desktop Linux simply does not represent that level of revolutionary innovation over the current standard desktop software.
As a matter of fact, from the standpoint of a long-time Windows user, it actually represents a perceived step backward.

Nevertheless, the point about the ubiquitousness of the horse and bug does seem similar to the ever-presence of Windows.

[Tomosaur]

Not really. The point is that consumer hardware is almost always designed to work with Windows, and manufacturers make a point of including Windows driver CDs with the actual hardware. If you buy hardware for Linux (even if it's "designed to run Windows"), you still have to check for compatibility by doing research.

This doesn't negate the fact that Ubuntu runs better than Windows on a computer which was designed to run Windows and Windows only. If Lary had meant what you claim he means, then why didn't he just say 'Hardware manufacturers don't support Linux' - which is actually the case, rather than 'Linux doesn't run well on Windows hardware', which is proven incorrect by the fact that I experience the opposite - that Windows doesn't run well on Windows hardware.



Sure, that's a huge part of the strategy, but you can't tell me that Shuttleworth and Michael Dell weren't in talks before Dell offered Ubuntu-preinstalled computers on its website. It wasn't simply an Idea Storm democracy. I'm sure there were negotiations, and I'm sure even now Mark Shuttleworth is strategizing how to get Ubuntu preinstalled computers into physical (not just online) stores.

Again, read Bug #1.

I'm not claiming anything about why Dell decided to start preinstalling Ubuntu (In fact, I didn't even mention it, so I don't know why you're bringing it up). All I was saying is that there's little Mark Shuttleworth can do when compared to Microsoft, who actively 'bribe' vendors so that customers are more or less forced to buy Windows. Yes, Shuttleworth is probably always talking to vendors, pushing Ubuntu - but at the end of the day the primary blockade to Linux is the fact that there aren't enough people using it already. The growth of Ubuntu can not happen in the same way that Windows became so successful. When Windows came about, the industry was in a completely different (and more competition-friendly) position. Nowadays, Microsoft does everything in its power to halt competition and stifle the growth of competing operating systems. The only way hardware vendors are going to start preinstalling Linux is if they perceive demand - Ubuntu's existence is just not enough. The only way to get demand is to get people using it and showing it off.

[aysiu]

The growth of Ubuntu can not happen in the same way that Windows became so successful. And I don't believe anyone (including Lary Grant) has suggested it should happen in the same way.

[Lary Grant]

This PC was designed to run Windows - Linux beats the hell out of Windows on it - so I guess that blows your argument out of the water :)

Are you talking about the original IBM PC, on which all future PC architectures, until today, is based? That certainly was not designed to run the non-existant Windows OS. It was designed to run DOS. Are you talking about today's PC's? They are most certainly designed to run Windows... not the CPU, hard drive, etc., but certainly such peripherals as the wireless adapter and the video card. Just take a quick look on the hardware forums to convince yourself of that. And it is a known fact that hardware vendors work very closely with Microsoft throughout the development process. Hardware vendors have access to development versions of Windows and "pull" with the Windows development team to resolve any hardware issues long before the hardware is released.


At the end of the day - Mark Shuttleworth is focused on the development of Ubuntu. If he owned big chain stores, then of course he'd make sure Ubuntu was available there.

Wow, now that is a seriously awesome idea! Has anyone floated this past Mark? Doesn't Canonical have enough capital to invest in a pilot store or 2? Wow! This is very similar to what Apple did when they started the Apple stores. They realized that 3rd party stores were not selling Apples properly so they opened their own stores.


There's little hope of Ubuntu appearing in a box at a shop, because it's free of charge.

The stores would be allowed to charge a nominal fee for the box. This is done for other Linux versions. But I agree that it's not the road to go down. Customers don't want to install an OS and they shouldn't have to.

[jcconnor]

Dear Mr. Grant,

How long before you write the officers and executives of the aforementioned organizations and request they do what you are asking? How long before you stand in front of your local (insert company name here) and pass out free copies of Ubuntu? How long before you do something about this?

John

[Lary Grant]

Dear Mr. Grant,

How long before you write the officers and executives of the aforementioned organizations and request they do what you are asking? How long before you stand in front of your local (insert company name here) and pass out free copies of Ubuntu? How long before you do something about this?

John

I have been doing plenty... I have replaced several installations of Windows with Ubuntu for friends and family. I have been handing out CDs, going to LUGs, handing out printouts from the Ubuntu website and mentioning Linux whenever I overhear anyone complaining about their latest Windows debacle (e.g. they spent the whole weekend rebuilding their machine to recover from a virus and they 'think the virus came in through IM so I am banning the use of IM now'). I have been asking my workplace why they are spending so much on proprietary software that they cannot even afford to give to all the users that need it. And here is an exact quote from an email exchange with a family member:
Never heard of it. I didn't even know there were alternatives to Windows. lol

lol indeed. That's because Linux is out of sight, out of mind, and thus is less real than Fantasy Football to just about everyone I talk to.

[kteagan84]

Sure, that's a huge part of the strategy, but you can't tell me that Shuttleworth and Michael Dell weren't in talks before Dell offered Ubuntu-preinstalled computers on its website. It wasn't simply an Idea Storm democracy. I'm sure there were negotiations, and I'm sure even now Mark Shuttleworth is strategizing how to get Ubuntu preinstalled computers into physical (not just online) stores.

Again, read Bug #1.

I agree, even though I doubt Mark Shuttleworth is seeking out Ubuntu pre-installed in shops, he certainly could use things like the Idea Storm to negotiate before the idea storm results came through. Dell is savvy enough to know this as well.

[kteagan84]

This bloke has a cool site where you can see this in action: http://www.manucornet.net/pcjacking/

:D

I have a few problems with this method.

1.) If something was to go wrong, they'd have you on camera and know that you hijacked one of their display computers.

2.) The liveCD runs significantly slower than an actual install. The average consumer won't know it's on a liveCD, probably won't notice (right away, at least) that its not windows, and think that the computer is just a slow POS. If they do realize it's linux, they may get turned off by its speed. Seems better to just bring a disc to a friend's house and show them the layout with them knowing that the liveCD is slower because it runs off of the CD-Rom drive.

[aysiu]

I agree, even though I doubt Mark Shuttleworth is seeking out Ubuntu pre-installed in shops, he certainly could use things like the Idea Storm to negotiate before the idea storm results came through. Dell is savvy enough to know this as well.
Well, he may not be talking about Best Buy per se, but Bug #1's language mentions visiting a local PC store, not necessarily an online one:
Non-free software is holding back innovation in the IT industry, restricting access to IT to a small part of the world's population and limiting the ability of software developers to reach their full potential, globally. This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.
Steps to repeat:
1. Visit a local PC store.
What happens:
2. Observe that a majority of PCs for sale have non-free software pre-installed.
3. Observe very few PCs with Ubuntu and free software pre-installed.
What should happen:
1. A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software like Ubuntu.
2. Ubuntu should be marketed in a way such that its amazing features and benefits would be apparent and known by all.
3. The system shall become more and more user friendly as time passes.

[aysiu]

1.) If something was to go wrong, they'd have you on camera and know that you hijacked one of their display computers. Agreed. Any kind of 'jacking without permission isn't a good way to spread Ubuntu.


2.) The liveCD runs significantly slower than an actual install. The average consumer won't know it's on a liveCD, probably won't notice (right away, at least) that its not windows, and think that the computer is just a slow POS. If they do realize it's linux, they may get turned off by its speed. Seems better to just bring a disc to a friend's house and show them the layout with them knowing that the liveCD is slower because it runs off of the CD-Rom drive. I don't know if I agree with this. Most of the PCs I see sold these days have at least 1 GB of RAM. That's plenty fast for a live CD.

[kteagan84]

Well, he may not be talking about Best Buy per se, but Bug #1's language mentions visiting a local PC store, not necessarily an online one:

Hmmm...I have read the Bug #1 site before, but haven't read that closely. Seems to be a possible strategy, in theory or in practice?

[kteagan84]

I don't know if I agree with this. Most of the PCs I see sold these days have at least 1 GB of RAM. That's plenty fast for a live CD.

I purchased a new PC recently, it has a super fast DVD-Rom and 2 gb ram, and the live CD does run significantly slower than my actual install. And all of my hardware runs excellently in linux. I expect it to run slower off the CD though...the average user at a demo computer would not expect this.

[Lary Grant]

Nobody has commented yet on my idea... Why not open the Ubuntu Store?

[Lary Grant]

Incidentally... I have also butted into a sales pitch for Microsoft Office in Best Buy to tell the customer that they should first try OpenOffice for free before plunking down whatever outrageous price they were asking.

[aysiu]

Nobody has commented yet on my idea... Why not open the Ubuntu Store?
Sounds like a great idea, actually. Someone has to do the work, though.

[p_quarles]

Incidentally... I have also butted into a sales pitch for Microsoft Office in Best Buy to tell the customer that they should first try OpenOffice for free before plunking down whatever outrageous price they were asking.
That's pretty awesome, as well as pretty gutsy. :)

It would be great to have an Ubuntu retail outlet, but I doubt it would be practical. The demand has to be there before anyone would seek out a store, and the current demand for Linux OEM install systems is from a pretty specialist crowd. Plus, Canonical has no hardware manufacturing capabilities, so such a store would rely on third parties for the actual saleable goods.

Much more plausible, to me, would be getting Dell stores to prominently display Ubuntu systems

[justin whitaker]

And I don't believe anyone (including Lary Grant) has suggested it should happen in the same way.

Hang on Aysiu, don't let Larry off the hook so quick. His second post was


If Bill Gates thought that way, you would be saying "Bill who?"

Clearly, there is a message there that what Bill did to gain dominance for Microsoft is something which Mark has yet to do, and this phrase implies a value judgment about that, something along the lines of "ends justifying means."

It may not have been his intention, but that's what myself and others have been picking up on.

The fact is, what Microsoft has done, get preinstalled on retail machines, lock in hardware vendors, and generate validation schemes to ensure payment....well none of those things are really replicable by an open source operating system, particularly one with a philosophy of humanism...

Let's get something clear: the dominance of Microsoft is the result of some seriously hard work by Microsoft, the willingness to run slipshod over anyone that gets in their way, and the doggedness to pursue a vision that everyone should be running Microsoft software.

But it is also a product of a particular point in time...one which appears to be waning....

So, what Mark has to do is emulate a failing model, or come up with a new model of dominance? Quite a tall order!

[aysiu]

That's pretty awesome, as well as pretty gutsy. :)

It would be great to have an Ubuntu retail outlet, but I doubt it would be practical. The demand has to be there before anyone would seek out a store, and the current demand for Linux OEM install systems is from a pretty specialist crowd. Plus, Canonical has no hardware manufacturing capabilities, so such a store would rely on third parties for the actual saleable goods.

Much more plausible, to me, would be getting Dell stores to prominently display Ubuntu systems
It would be tricky, but it could be done.

First of all, the Ubuntu store would basically have to be laptops. Most Linux users (not me, but a lot of other people, apparently) would prefer to build their own desktops and often find they can build them with better specs and less money than the pre-built desktops most OEMs offer.

Secondly, the Ubuntu store would have to have laptops that appear different, just as Apple laptops appear different, despite having the same internals as other Windows laptops and actually being manufactured by the same company. The biggest mistake Dell made was selling Ubuntu laptops on the same laptops they sell Vista on. Similarities invite comparison. It's too easy for people to say "Hm, this laptop with Vista for X amount of money versus the same laptop with Ubuntu for Y amount of money..." If they are apparently different laptops, it's harder to make a comparison. Again, look at Apple.

Marketing would have to be done correctly. You would want to appeal to both the "geek" crowd and the JitterBug Phone crowd. Windows power users with special needs: no, not yet.

Truth be told, if done right, it'd be a lot like Apple and Macs, except not proprietary; no hardware lock-in, no DRM, no exhorbitant prices. I'm thinking something like Parallels (VirtualBox with Windows). I'm thinking a slick-looking shell that gives the appearance of better durability. Hardware components that do not require proprietary drivers. A nice printed manual that explains the basics of getting going with Ubuntu.

All of this, of course, takes serious planning, negotiations, capital, and organization.

[aysiu]

Hang on Aysiu, don't let Larry off the hook so quick. Read the post Lary was responding to. In context, the part about Bill Gates doesn't necessarily imply using the same tactics.

[Lary Grant]

the current demand for Linux OEM install systems is from a pretty specialist crowd


First of all, the Ubuntu store would basically have to be laptops. Most Linux users (not me, but a lot of other people, apparently) would prefer to build their own desktops and often find they can build them with better specs and less money than the pre-built desktops most OEMs offer.

Don't take this the wrong way, but... I don't care about the "specialist crowd" or "Linux users" :) The Ubuntu Store is not for them at all!

It is for the same people who now go into Best Buy and buy a computer for their home or office. Of course, the Ubuntu Store will sell desktops! And laptops too!

Of course there is a tremendous "demand" for the Ubuntu Store!

If you define the "demand" as "demand for a Linux machine", it is of course ridiculously low. But again, that is not who the store is for at all! If you defined "demand" as "demand for a computer that can do what 90% of people want it to do", then the demand is huge!

I hate to beat a dead horse :) but in Henry Ford's day, the demand for "cars" was limited to a tiny group of automotive geeks. But the demand for "transportation" was huge.

[koenn]

yep, you're right.
Someone should really set up an Ubuntu Store

[p_quarles]

Don't take this the wrong way, but... I don't care about the "specialist crowd" or "Linux users" :) The Ubuntu Store is not for them at all!

If you define the "demand" as "demand for a Linux machine", it is of course ridiculously low. But again, that is not who the store is for at all! If you defined "demand" as "demand for a computer that can do what 90% of people want it to do", then the demand is huge!
Right, and Ubuntu aims to be available to the user who is not a specialist, and doesn't want to be.

And, of course, you're also right that the demand for "not Windows" is vastly greater than the specific demand for pre-installed Linux systems. Mainly because people don't know about it.

My point is that I just don't think that people who are unaware of Ubuntu's existence will seek out a retail store, which means that the store would have to be in a high foot-traffic area of a large city, which in turn means the kind of rent associated with chain stores and high-end boutiques.

But hey, if anyone has the capital to start an Ubuntu store on Michigan Ave. in Chicago, I'll be happy to help run it. :)

[Lary Grant]

Think Apple Store. The concepts are very similar. The Apple Store was not targeting people actively seeking an Apple computer.

[Lary Grant]

It does not have to be in a high foot traffic area. It just has to be accessible to a population center. There is such a thing as "advertising" :) . Actually the right advertising would be a key factor in its success.

[p_quarles]

Think Apple Store. The concepts are very similar. The Apple Store was not targeting people actively seeking an Apple computer.
Sure, but Apple still manufactures hardware (or pays for it to be manufactured), which is the main difference.

I do agree with you on the main point, though. Once people see a well-configured Linux system, they're generally pretty wowed. I've shown my boxes to a couple Mac devotees, and even they were impressed with the stylishness, speed, functionality, etc.

[multifaceted]

Yes, have it installed on machines in the Big Box stores so lackluster salespeople and inexperienced potential buyers can browse the system files and mess up the system rendering it maimed thus, creating a bad user experience and making a bad name for Linux.

WE should be getting Linux out there... one friend, coworker or family member at a time.

[aysiu]

Yes, have it installed on machines in the Big Box stores so lackluster salespeople and inexperienced potential buyers can browse the system files and mess up the system rendering it maimed Sounds as if you're talking about Windows XP, which defaults to the user being administrator and having direct access to all system files. In Ubuntu, the user would be told that the system files are owned by root. In order to mess up the system, they'd have to ask on the forums first how to modify system files, and we'd educate them on not modifying system files or using sudo sparingly.

[jsmidt]

Ubuntu absolutely needs to see the day it is being sold at Staples, Best Buy, etc... Until such a day, many software and hardware companies will never support Ubuntu.

Why? Because for them it is all about market share.

There is too many company Xs who won't port their hardware or software to Ubuntu since they think: "why spend the time, money and effort, there is isn't a big enough market demand for it."

I don't want to see Ubuntu become like Microsoft either, but having a great open source OS who happens to have a great market share and tugs all serious venders to support it would be one of the best things that could happen to Ubuntu.

It takes people like Best Buy, Office Depot, Wal Mart or something like an Apple store in public selling computers with Ubuntu pre-installed to gain significant market share.

[Syke]

Dear Mr. Shuttleworth,

How long until I can walk into my local Staples, Best Buy, or CompUSA and find Ubuntu running on floor models, go up to it, play with it, buy it, and take it home?

Soon.

[slimdog360]

Dear Mr. Shuttleworth,

How long until I can walk into my local Staples, Best Buy, or CompUSA and find Ubuntu running on floor models, go up to it, play with it, buy it, and take it home?

Im actually Mark under the guise of slimdog360. To answer your question 1 year, 3 months, 17 days, 6 hours, 43 minutes and 12 seconds (approximately).

[Lary Grant]

Yes, have it installed on machines in the Big Box stores so lackluster salespeople and inexperienced potential buyers can browse the system files and mess up the system rendering it maimed thus, creating a bad user experience and making a bad name for Linux.

WE should be getting Linux out there... one friend, coworker or family member at a time.

Huh? Then why doesn't that happen with Windows systems? Why would salespeople or users browse the system files? They mainly click on what's visible on the desktop!

And besides... the system files need root access to modify!

Sorry, but I think you are way off base on this point!

[zmjjmz]

Well, here's something interesting...
http://www.ideastorm.com/article/show/103088/Get_GNULinux_Machines_in_Retail_Stores

:D

[yabbadabbadont]

Are you practicing to become a necromancer? (a thread necromancer that is) :lol:

[RAV TUX]

Dear Mr. Shuttleworth,

How long until I can walk into my local Staples, Best Buy, or CompUSA and find Ubuntu running on floor models, go up to it, play with it, buy it, and take it home?
He doesn't know.

[zmjjmz]

Are you practicing to become a necromancer? (a thread necromancer that is) :lol:

I already am one :shock:
Anyways, this idevelopment is pretty related to the topic.
Though it doesn't have much to do with Mark.

[yabbadabbadont]

As far as CompUSA goes, never. They are going out of business...

(Just shows how old this thread is)

[zmjjmz]

Well, maybe Systemax will be nice and put them back in physical retail.
All it is now is a mirror (except the banner) of TigerDirect...