Are games more important than you think?

[Darkscot]

I have been using Ubuntu at home for about a month while the wife and children stuck to Windows XP. However, over the last week or so they have also gradually drifted to Ubuntu without any encouragemetn by me. The reason for this is the games that come as standard. Firstly my wife got saw me playing 'Same Gnome' and got hooked on that. Then daughter (7) discovered connect four (one of her favourite games) which led to others. Eventually the 'family' PC was logged on to Ubuntu more often than to XP. Firstly for games but then for surfing the web and then for downloading pics of the family digital camera and then for Open Office and so on.

Until now I had considered games an unimportant part of an OS but in fact maybe they are a very useful hook to grab new users.

[weasel fierce]

Im sure they provide a bit more incentive. And some of them are deceptively addictive... *goes off to play Starwolf a bit more*

[Darkscot]

The things is, there are a lot of people (e.g. my family) who don't care what operating systems is on a PC. They expect a PC to allow them to email, surf, write letters, download/edit pics etc. If on top of all that is looks 'nice', has cool games and any other bonus features then they will choose that OS.

[Curlydave]

Hmmmm, two choices...

1: Windows that works fine and runs all of my games well

2: Linux that works fine and gives me lots of trouble with some games, won't run others and gives me uber-bad performance with no graphics options at all in the ones that run


I think I'll continue booting onto choice 1. :razz:

[tom-ubuntu]

Gaming is very important for a desktop OS. Just look around your friends. How many do play games in their freetime? Have you ever tried to convert them to Linux? How far did you come? As soon as it comes to games, the journey is over. At least this is my experience.

[YourSurrogateGod]

Games are crack. The more games are on Ubuntu the more people will turn heads.

[N'Jal]

tis true though, the more game's the better i say, but preferebly in autopackage format since that makes one size fit all

[npaladin2000]

Games = Very important. Not as much the commercial games as the little diversions that can be played in a window, like SuperTux and LBreakout.

The PC gaming industry isn't what it used to be. They're mostly clones of what you can get on consoles. Unless it's an RTS, 4x strategy or something like that anyway. Those sorts of games I keep Windows around for.

[BWF89]

I play some games on my pc like Pocket Tanks and Super DX Ball. But I've stopped buying commercial games for the PC because all they will end up doing in the end is make it harder for me to switch to Linux when I get my own computer.

If your going to play a commercial game get it for the Playstation 2, Gamecube, or Dreamcast (Xbox is evil because it's made by Microsoft). Their usually ALOT more fun than their pc counterparts and you get to play them on a screen that's more than 4x the size of your computer screen. And you get to use a controller.

[Hanj]

This discussion makes me wonder, is there any project going on to create something like a free, open source version of Cedega? IMO, what I would really need to convert Windows people to linux is some free way to run Windows games, without the hassle and bugs in Cedega. Guess that will just remain a dream though...

[Stormy Eyes]

This discussion makes me wonder, is there any project going on to create something like a free, open source version of Cedega?

The project you're looking for is called WINE, and Cedega is WINE's bastard offspring. Personally, I recommend that you not bother. Just get a console and a TV tuner card, and use tvtime to play console games on your Linux PC. PS2 piped through svideo input looks really good.

[SKLP]

Xbox is evil because it's made by MicrosoftMicrosoft is not evil, they are merely trying to make as much money as possible (like most companies)

[krusbjorn]

Microsoft is not evil, they are merely trying to make as much money as possible (like most companies)

That's why most companies are evil ;)

[SKLP]

That's why most companies are evil ;)Depends on how you look at it ^^ How do you define evil?

[Brunellus]

Hmmmm, two choices...

1: Windows that works fine and runs all of my games well

2: Linux that works fine and gives me lots of trouble with some games, won't run others and gives me uber-bad performance with no graphics options at all in the ones that run


I think I'll continue booting onto choice 1. :razz:
The OP was talking about time-wasting games on the desktop...where linux holds its own against standard Windows and OSX installations. Out of the box, ubuntu gives you more games than Windows.

[BWF89]

Microsoft is not evil, they are merely trying to make as much money as possible (like most companies)
All I saw when Microsoft launched the Xbox was that they pretty much monopolise the operating system market. Then they see a segment of the software industry that they don't control so they set out to create a gaming system so they can try to control that part too.

[weasel fierce]

Windows games is nice, but I prefer just sticking with my console.

A legal copy of windows, or a 6 PS2 games ? Hm.

[N'Jal]

Linux game's out of the box are also much easier to remove, have you ever wondered in the add/remove program's window solitaire is?

[BWF89]

Linux game's out of the box are also much easier to remove, have you ever wondered in the add/remove program's window solitaire is?
The entire solitare program is just an icon in the games folder. If you want to remove the program just delete the file.

[SKLP]

All I saw when Microsoft launched the Xbox was that they pretty much monopolise the operating system market. Then they see a segment of the software industry that they don't control so they set out to create a gaming system so they can try to control that part too.Of course, all they want is maximum profit :(

[basse1989]

They already have enough money PERIOD :P

[Stormy Eyes]

They already have enough money PERIOD :P

It's not your place to decide that others have "enough" of anything. Such talk reeks of envy.

[N'Jal]

The entire solitare program is just an icon in the games folder. If you want to remove the program just delete the file.

Isn't that the unix way of things, find this delete that?

[krusbjorn]

It's not your place to decide that others have "enough" of anything. Such talk reeks of envy.

I say that mr Peter Forsberg has enough money. He earns about $200 000 a day. Why would it not be in my place to say that he has enough money, and instead of leaving it in a vault, he could save millions of lives?

I dont believe in good and evil, but i strongly believe in humanity to others. Some people actually have enough money. Period.

[basse1989]

It's not your place to decide that others have "enough" of anything. Such talk reeks of envy.
Man, that was a joke. AND, they could be a little nicer to "us". :P

[basse1989]

I say that mr Peter Forsberg has enough money. He earns about $200 000 a day. Why would it not be in my place to say that he has enough money, and instead of leaving it in a vault, he could save millions of lives?

I dont believe in good and evil, but i strongly believe in humanity to others. Some people actually have enough money. Period.
That's kinda what I meant, they don't NEED more money.

[Stormy Eyes]

I say that mr Peter Forsberg has enough money. He earns about $200 000 a day. Why would it not be in my place to say that he has enough money, and instead of leaving it in a vault, he could save millions of lives?

Why? It's really simple: Peter Forsberg earned all of that money, and you did not. Therefore, it is his sole and absolute right to do as he pleases with that money. If he wants to use it for toilet paper, that's none of anybody else's business.

When you earn two hundred grand a day, you can do anything you like with it, spend it on as many silly causes as you deem fit, and I won't say a thing. It wouldn't be my place to do so, after all, since it's not my money. I'll say this, though: if I was rich, and you had the nerve to tell me how to spend my money, my response would be much harsher than this post.


I dont believe in good and evil, but i strongly believe in humanity to others.

I do not. I believe in freedom, and that as long as one does not do harm to others, one should be free to do as one likes. I won't kill you, but I don't have to keep you alive, either. Staying alive is your problem, and nobody else's.


Some people actually have enough money. Period.

Your arrogance contradicts your stated belief in "humanity towards others". Check your premises. If you want to argue the point further, I suggest we start a different thread. This one is supposed to be about whether or not gaming on Linux actually matters. I don't think it does. Microsoft didn't conquer the desktop by winning the trigger fingers and wallets of gamers. It went after the corporate desktop, just as IBM did.

[SKLP]

That's kinda what I meant, they don't NEED more money.That actually depends of your definition of "need". I might ask you: "They need in order to?"
I mean, if we were talking about a human being what would the defintion of need be? Need to survive?

Well, if a company doesn't try to make profit, then it's kinda dead isn't it?

:roll:

[NoTiG]

THe reason we don't have games is because of DirectX. There is no technological reason microsoft created this API, where they could have embraced and extended OpenGL. The reason why is because it locks you in.

Here is an interesting article : Microsoft Vista Degrades OpenGL (http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/cgi_directory/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000001)



MS is evil. Sure, but this is truely the fault of Graphics card manufacturers, NOT MS. They could have made their hardware support both quite easily, but choose to do as little in the hardware as possible, and force the drivers to pick up the slack, well in this case, there is nothing the drivers can do that won't absolutely kill performance, so MS did the logical thing. And one last thing, on OSX they'd have the same problem if they had some sort of alternate 3D api.

Well, you've laid out all the dots, so let me connect them for you. You mentioned that OS X doesn't have this problem. And why is that? Because they don't have some "alternative" (aka proprietary) API. Microsoft, on the other hand, does, and that's what's causing the problem. So the logical solution is for Microsoft to abandon Direct3D and use OpenGL themselves. Why don't they? Because they're evil!

It's entirely Microsoft's fault that OpenGL doesn't work well on Windows to begin with, and it's entirely Microsoft's fault that the "fix" is to screw it in favor of Direct3D, and it's entirely Microsoft's illegal anticompetitive tactics that are driving the decision..


.Just want to get everyone to slow down for a minute and take a hard look at what is and isn't happening.

Let's basically take the following as hard fact:

Quote:

As soon as an ICD is loaded the composited desktop is turned off on Windows Vista. If you want the composited desktop Aeroglass experience, you will need to make your application go through Microsoft's OpenGL implementation, which is layered on top of DirectX. As pointed out earlier, this layering can have performance implications. Their implementation supports OpenGL version 1.4 only, without extension support.


ICD = Installable Client Driver (i.e. this is what you get when you go to nVidia's site and install their driver.)

So, when a display driver for OpenGL is loaded, Aeroglass shuts down. First and foremost:
This has absolutely no implications for fullscreen games on single monitor setups!
So, with that important detail out of the way, let's look at the scenarios where we DO have a serious problem:
* Multi-monitor setups
* Windowed mode applications

The former is of concern primarily for developers, and I won't really look at it, as it's really just an extension of the latter. So what do windowed mode applications entail? Game editors, scientific and engineering software, tons of academic stuff, modeling and CAD software -- basically, everything that isn't a game. Now, suppose one of these applications starts. Windows again has two options:
* Give the client app the virtualised MS implementation, and keep Aeroglass running as normal.
* Shut down Aeroglass, revert to a 2D desktop, and load a real ICD for the app.

I think it's fairly obvious what the pros and cons of each choice are. The problem at this point, and the objection of the people leading this charge, is that there is no third option:
* Load a real ICD, but keep Aeroglass running as normal.

So, that is the real problem. Vista will not allow both a true accelerated OpenGL app and Aeroglass to run concurrently. And that, basically, is how the cards fall right now. The second alternative of shutting down Aeroglass when an OpenGL app does not really bother me -- we're using a 2D desktop right now, and we seem to be getting along fine. Should we be putting pressure on MS to resolve this issue? The answer is a resounding YES. But let's keep our heads here, shall we? Before screaming about this, that, and the other, understand what exactly is and isn't happening.

[N'Jal]

ah ****, does this mean more letter writing to massive companies that don't give a crap who i am wasting their time?

[YourSurrogateGod]

It went after the corporate desktop, just as IBM did.
Silly question, but why didn't IBM take off and Microsoft did?

[Stormy Eyes]

Silly question, but why didn't IBM take off and Microsoft did?

Because while any schmuck can make an IBM-compatible computer, not anybody can make a Microsoft-compatible OS.

[YourSurrogateGod]

Because while any schmuck can make an IBM-compatible computer, not anybody can make a Microsoft-compatible OS.
Gotcha...

[super]

games on linux, eh? :wink:

well since i couldn't play my beloved 'ghost recon', 'rainbow six', 'splinter cell' or 'need for speed underground' in linux i had to do something to cure my 3d games craving

so...

i downloaded some console emulators (n64 and snes) and bootlegged games like it was going out of style. problem solved. super is satisfied! :-P

i must say tho that the games included in GNOME are good for quick 10 minute amusement. :grin:

i just can't stand the look of aisleriot, for solitaire i goota resort to running sol.exe ( :oops: ) via WINE.

EDIT: hmm, seems the :oops dude is not working.

[Curlydave]

Saying that PC gaming is dead and if you want games use a console is very wrong. If you do a little research, you'll find that that's far from the truth. Apart from some of the newest, best games coming out on PC only or coming out on PC long before a console, there's the online play aspect that a console (even XboxLive) can't touch. My two favorite games happen to be mods; Natural-Selection and Red Orchestra. There are no console games that can come close to comparing.

OK, Red Orchestra does work on Linux minus some fairly minor details and if I had an Nvidia card I'd be set, but the fact of the matter is that I don't, so I get poor performance, and I can't use AA AF or Vsync at all, whereas the latter two are extremely important and the first is nice. I know that this can probably be blamed on ATI and not Linux, but the fact of the matter is that I'm not wasting money on a new video card just for this reason when the one I have now is quite smokin' normally.

[npaladin2000]

THe reason we don't have games is because of DirectX. There is no technological reason microsoft created this API, where they could have embraced and extended OpenGL. The reason why is because it locks you in.

Here is an interesting article : Microsoft Vista Degrades OpenGL (http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/cgi_directory/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000001)

People keep confusing things. DirectX and OpenGL are NOT equivalents and do NOT replace each other. OpenGL is equivalent to ONE COMPONENT of DirectX, that being Direct3D.

The closest analogue to DirectX in Linux would be the entire SDL, combined with OpenGL. DirectX is a unified API that combines 3D and 2D graphics (Direct3D and DirectDraw), sound (DirectSound), network (DirectPlay), and controller/other input (DirectInput), along with a few other things that I'm probably forgetting.

Problem is, not as many companies program for SDL. Probably because the 3D API is seperate from it, and the tools available probably aren't as useable.

[Kirzzy_Boy]

games on linux, eh? :wink:

well since i couldn't play my beloved 'ghost recon', 'rainbow six', 'splinter cell' or 'need for speed underground' in linux i had to do something to cure my 3d games craving

so...

i downloaded some console emulators (n64 and snes) and bootlegged games like it was going out of style. problem solved. super is satisfied! :-P



Well now, very interresting idea!!! I'm very new to Linux (10 days now) and as happy as a pig in s***. Exept for the game part!
I think I'm gonna give this a try :)

Any problems to look out for?? Can a noob like me get this running without too much hassel??

[Hanj]

The project you're looking for is called WINE, and Cedega is WINE's bastard offspring.Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Wine intended to run Windows apps in general, and Cedega is a fork of Wine meant to run Windows games in particular? What I was wondering is if there's some project to make a (non-commercial) "gaming-wine" or such?

[Darkscot]

There have been a lot of interesting comments here and overall I think the question to my original question is 'Yes'! Games are very important to a lot of users. For a long time the attitude has been 'Linux will do ewverything you want except games and you can get a PS2 for that"! But I think in this day and age that simply will not do. The fact is there are lots of people out there who want to play 'serios' games on their PC and at the moment neither Linux nor Mac OS meets their needs,

[Lord Illidan]

True.. I would switch 100% linux if it had some serious game support.
I mean, the open source games are good enough, though I want to see Plane Strike, but I wish I had Warcraft 3, Unreal Tournament, Quake 3, Black and White etc working without the need to get Cedega...

[Brunellus]

True.. I would switch 100% linux if it had some serious game support.
I mean, the open source games are good enough, though I want to see Plane Strike, but I wish I had Warcraft 3, Unreal Tournament, Quake 3, Black and White etc working without the need to get Cedega...
UT and Q3 are linux-native, if run with the proper installer, as I recall. google 'linux installer' and the games.

[Lord Illidan]

The original UT (way back) has it too?

I tried doing the Q3 thing, but it never worked properly...

[Stormy Eyes]

True.. I would switch 100% linux if it had some serious game support.
I mean, the open source games are good enough, though I want to see Plane Strike, but I wish I had Warcraft 3, Unreal Tournament, Quake 3, Black and White etc working without the need to get Cedega...

Quake 3, and the 2003 and 2004 versions of Unreal Tournament run natively in Linux, as does Neverwinter Nights.

[Curlydave]

Quake 3, and the 2003 and 2004 versions of Unreal Tournament run natively in Linux, as does Neverwinter Nights.

I can attest to UT2k4 (and mods for it eg Red Orchestra) working properly on Linux with only a few minor problems. (no liscense plate on UT vehicles, no detailed shadows, no modeled scopes in RO, red rain in RO, motion blur broken in RO etc.) I don't play it in Linux though as I have an ATI card which causes quite a few other problems. I like a smooth (read: good performance and vsync) pretty ( AA and AF) game that I can't have unless I use Windows or drop $400 on an Nvidia card to replace my x800pro.

In general most OpenGL games work in Linux such as Quake3, Doom3 etc. UT is natively DirectX, but it has a very nice OpenGL emulator coded in so that it works on Linux and Macs. I wish that more developers would utilize OpenGL as it has proven itself to be more than capable of competing with Direct3D.

[npaladin2000]

In general most OpenGL games work in Linux such as Quake3, Doom3 etc. UT is natively DirectX, but it has a very nice OpenGL emulator coded in so that it works on Linux and Macs. I wish that more developers would utilize OpenGL as it has proven itself to be more than capable of competing with Direct3D.

Unfortunately, that's only true on non-Windows platforms....Windows runs an old, crippled version of OpenGL which can't really compete with Direct3D. But they're not guilty of monopolistic antitrust tactics, of course. ;)

But the fact is, the majority of game developers out there couldn't give a flying frag that's there's a better API than Direct3D if it ain't on Windows, because their market lives on Windows right now, and ye-olde Microsoft monopoly is actually GOOD for them. They only have to worry about 1 API and 1 platform. And the typical gamer is still running Windows; while they're liekly smart enough to handle Linux, they can't bear to be away from their fragfests long enough to even get a GDM logon screen :grin:

Now if SDL/OpenGL (Need a better name for the combo) were just as popular on WIndows, and people installed the RECENT OpenGL....and if SDL was easy for a DirectX programmer to transition to...or even better if someone (Cedega*cough*) figured out how to directly translate DirectX calls to OpenGL/SDL....I hope someone's getting project ideas here. ;)

[Lord Illidan]

Now if SDL/OpenGL (Need a better name for the combo) were just as popular on WIndows, and people installed the RECENT OpenGL....and if SDL was easy for a DirectX programmer to transition to...or even better if someone (Cedega*cough*) figured out how to directly translate DirectX calls to OpenGL/SDL....I hope someone's getting project ideas here. ;)

If it was that easy,,, no, I don't think so...

kernel APIs etc...no...I think it is impossible..

[nicholaspaul]

As far as a family and games go, I decided to go the Game System route (Nintendo Gamecube in my case). I didn't want (and couldn't afford) to be constantly upgrading video cards/hard drives/monitors/CPU's just to keep up with the latest games .
Ubuntu can run perfectly on an older machine, and my kids (teen and pre-teen) can keep up with the latest games knowing they will work perfectly on their (Nintendo) hardware.

[Donshyoku]

The entire solitare program is just an icon in the games folder. If you want to remove the program just delete the file.

Not true.. the Solitare program is self-contained and found in C:\Windows\system32\sol.exe

Now, feel free to delete it. :)

[randomnote1]

yeah, consoles are great for people who are willing to shell out $400 for a thing to just play games on. I already have a computer and I don't mind paying some money for a game that I really like. So I just want it to work on whatever OS I'm running, which happens to be Ubuntu cuz it's cheap and reliable for what I need it to do. But in all honesty, the reason I can't get my friends to come to Linux is gaming. It's just way to much fun to hook up our computers and play AOE3. I'd love to do that with linux. And of course I give props to NVIDIA for building a driver for linux. That's the main reason I always plan to have one of their cards in my next computer.

[BWF89]

If I buy a game for Windows XP which im currently useing now I won't buy it unless I do some research to find out if it will also be playable on Linux. Otherwise I just stick to PS2 and Nintendo DS games.

[briancurtin]

to me, computer games are completely worthless

[prizrak]

Silly little games like same gnome are fairly important. It is something to pass the time for the non gamer crowd when they don't have anything to do or just relaxing for a bit. I wouldn't say that bigger and more involved games are [as] important to desktop adoption as most of the 'hardcore' non MMORPG, strategy crowd prefers consoles (sheer number of games that come out plus life span of consoles make it better).

[SolidAndShade]

Ubuntu has all the gaming software I need: fceu, snes9x and dgen. Those and my thousands of ROMs can keep me entertained for a long time...

[Master Shake]

Ubuntu, and Linux in general is a GREAT platform for older DOS games, thanks to DOSBOX.

I've been addicted to Prince of Persia 1, Populous, and THexder all over again!