PDA

View Full Version : Linux attitude?



ThomasD
September 10th, 2007, 10:59 PM
This article talks about the Linux attitude:

http://www.sibylleandthomas.info/drupal-5.2/node/19

I have had this issue personally (trying to ask any question on IRC and being told to RTFM), but it doesn't seem like the Ubuntu (as opposed to any 'Linux' as a generalisation) community fits the article; I've found people pretty helpful overall. I've to confess I've been reading only and never really 'provided' something to the forums.

karellen
September 10th, 2007, 11:06 PM
read the article. pretty true. it applies especially to the linux community as a whole, less to the ubuntu's users

jrusso2
September 10th, 2007, 11:30 PM
meh, what else is new. That could have been written ten years ago.

Iceni
September 10th, 2007, 11:40 PM
I don't see his point. The command line argument is flaved at best, because if you are the joe average he describes you don't need to open the command line at all.

Installation can be a bit more tricky than windows, with the lack of hardware support, but general usage is pretty easy.

ThomasD
September 10th, 2007, 11:59 PM
I don't think there are many Linux users that never *have* to open the command line.

I can think of many reason, but one of them is simply that there are a lot of things that come as source only, so you have to compile them.

And also, a lot of things just DO not work, for example laptops with broadcom wireless chips and will require extra things installed; or any troubleshooting for that matter.

danny joe ritchie
September 11th, 2007, 12:05 AM
The people here seem to welcome the newbies and the less technical.
Could be why Ubuntu is doing so well!
No Big I, Little U!

redpanties
September 11th, 2007, 12:08 AM
meh, what else is new. That could have been written ten years ago.

Too bad nothing changed

starcraft.man
September 11th, 2007, 12:27 AM
Just curious, but what kind of support do most Windows users get on their side to be so outraged/upset by RTFM (don't flame, bear with me)?

I been using Windows since the bloody DOS days and there's been only one consistent person to help me fix my machine, me. I learned from dad, manuals and some online sources (back in the good ol' static days). Tech support from any company has increasingly gone down hill (wasn't so hot to start with). It's all but entirely outsourced to someone in another country now pretending not to have a foreign accent (being Quebecer, I've heard em all); who likely knows little more than a small training course and a flowchart (I know they have these, I mapped it out from their questions once...). In fact the last time I got a Canadian was when my mom asked to speak to a French representative.

So really, what makes em so outraged at RTFM? You paid that person nothing (they could be having a crap day as we know...), I also bet if you wait some other nice person will answer (in IRC or forums). On the other hand, you paid upwards of hundreds of dollars to some of these companies and they stick you with nice and polite dopes with little to no knowledge of their product who often play pinball with your service call for upwards of an hour. Does being nice really make up for incompetence when your paying for it?

Oh and you don't have to provide back immediately Thomas, do so when you feel comfortable and know how to answer the basic/moderate questions. We do appreciate all the volunteers we can :).

Edit: Oh and for the record, I've always been nice to people. Least as long as they didn't start cursing at me/someone, my patience runs out when the names/anger fly...

plb
September 11th, 2007, 12:30 AM
The so-called "Linux attitude" was a lot worse years ago...not so bad now

ThomasD
September 11th, 2007, 01:14 AM
Just curious, but what kind of support do most Windows users get on their side to be so outraged/upset by RTFM (don't flame, bear with me)?

This is a valid point, the support for Windows is ... nothing.

But Windows, and to some extent the Mac, can afford this: they have enough market share and enough users.
The same way Verizon can offer crappy customer service and alienating some of them.

Linux is trying to proove itself to the general (non technical) public and, in order to succeed, will have to make some concessions. One of them is to be newbie friendly. That's why the Mac is popular, it appears friendly to people that are not tech savy; in contrast, Linux has the reputation to be complicated and, on top of that, we see arrogant users.

This article has been discussed on digg too (http://digg.com/linux_unix/Linux_s_biggest_Enemy) and there's one interesting comment:



I don't doubt the sense of pride that many feel upon having mastered or plugged their way through Linux to some point of familiarity, but the we-did-so-you-must-do-it attitude stinks. It's like they're the first fans of this really great underground band, before the band hits it big. Except the fans don't want the band to hit it big, so they have them all to themselves.

So, I think you're right: windows doesn't have any support at all, not even rude support. But with its domination, it may not be as important.

starcraft.man
September 11th, 2007, 01:31 AM
This is a valid point, the support for Windows is ... nothing.


You know what the funny thing is, few if any general Windows people (in my experience) really figure this point out... most rely on generous free help from geeks they know. Oh how amusing the world is.


Linux is trying to proove itself to the general (non technical) public and, in order to succeed, will have to make some concessions. One of them is to be newbie friendly. That's why the Mac is popular, it appears friendly to people that are not tech savy; in contrast, Linux has the reputation to be complicated and, on top of that, we see arrogant users.
Just a correction but people see some angry/arrogant users. It's the way the world works. You help someone and be nice, they usually say thank you and are quiet to themselves content. Then you get a small portion of people really upset with something outrageous and they get vocal and flame and speak ill to as many as they can about ya (even if there's 100 positive cases to that one horrible). People look to that one bad case and extrapolate. Bad practise of course.

As for the Mac ya, they can make great intuitive (read newbie friendly) interfaces. Know that this ability comes greatly from the fact that they have a draconian control on every part of the experience (they make the ipod, it's firmware, itunes, the Mac you run it all on, OSX, etc...). When you own the channel, you can make something near perfect (or as close to as possible).

Notice that when they outsourced part of their product, a la iPhone, they had issues with their experience, on the AT&T end. Examples of this are (but not limited to) the hundred page AT&T bills, bad service at their stores, long turn arounds on release day, problems with activation on their network, discrepencies in policies, list goes on. The point is, the moment part of their product left their absolute control, it was more reminiscent of the every day product from any other company... most people don't think of this though and are only too happy to let Apple own every bit of their tech lives. I personally am very disconcerted with letting any company own that much of my life.

/end rant


But with its domination, it may not be as important.
One of the worst effects of monopolies/pseudo-monopolies... complacency.

All points addressed I think :).

p_quarles
September 11th, 2007, 01:34 AM
Windows does actually have a lot of support, it's just that a lot of it is invisible to the casual glance. E.g.:

* On-the-job training
* The enterprise help desk
* Friends/family (here's where the marketshare comes in; you're more likely to personally know a Windows-expert than a *nix expert)
* OEM installations (really, this is a form of support; it gets rid of most basic installation problems)
* Third-party help lines (like ISPs, and their scripted step-by-step instructions for Windows)
* That guy who sells instructional CDs on infomercials (joking)

These are all things that minimize the amount of effort that the average user has to put in to getting Windows to work. And, yeah, it's understandable that an MS user who is used to things working without wanting to know how they work would experience a big shock when leaving all that behind.

Ubuntu is doing a really good job of trying to provide some of these things for Linux, but they definitely need some help. (speaking of which, it ticked me off when I got the newest Dell catalog recently, and there was no mention of Ubuntu).

Darkhack
September 11th, 2007, 01:35 AM
So really, what makes em so outraged at RTFM?

Because it is rude. How would you feel if you needed help and that was the response you got? Is it really that much effort to type out "If you look in the manual, you can find some information related to that topic"? Or better yet, provide them with a link. There is no reason to be rude, other than to satisfy one's own ego.

Granted, some questions are really stupid. Questions like "What is Compiz Fusion?" or "When is the next version of Ubuntu coming out?" are the kinds of things that can be found either on Wikipedia, The Ubuntu Wiki, or Google with very minimal effort. Despite this, "RTFM" is not an acceptable answer. Some people might not even know what that acronym means. I'll either provide them with a link after doing the search myself and if I feel it necessary, say something like "Here is a link that answers your question. There is a wealth of information on Wikipedia, The Ubuntu Wiki, and Google, so I recommend using those next time you are in need of a quick answer".

bigbearomaha
September 11th, 2007, 01:36 AM
I think the upset at "rtfm" s that "rtfm" is just plain rude. regardless of what OS you use.

sure, there are those who want people to do it for them and they can be irritating, but a simple comment along the lines of "try this place" and a link to a how to they can can cut and paste from that addresses the problem will suffice.

or just suggest in a polite way that a forum search will likely help them a lot. no need to get into an argument or bait people into a "who's better/smarter/better looking" debate.

and most important of all, have fun.

Big Bear

starcraft.man
September 11th, 2007, 01:47 AM
Because it is rude. How would you feel if you needed help and that was the response you got? Is it really that much effort to type out "If you look in the manual, you can find some information related to that topic"? Or better yet, provide them with a link. There is no reason to be rude, other than to satisfy one's own ego.

Granted, some questions are really stupid. Questions like "What is Compiz Fusion?" or "When is the next version of Ubuntu coming out?" are the kinds of things that can be found either on Wikipedia, The Ubuntu Wiki, or Google with very minimal effort. Despite this, "RTFM" is not an acceptable answer. Some people might not even know what that acronym means. I'll either provide them with a link after doing the search myself and if I feel it necessary, say something like "Here is a link that answers your question. There is a wealth of information on Wikipedia, The Ubuntu Wiki, and Google, so I recommend using those next time you are in need of a quick answer".

You didn't get the point of my post. I wasn't meaning the literal saying "RTFM" when I asked that question, put it in the context of my post please. Then read it over again. Not to mention I evens stated I never told people to say/have said RTFM.


Windows does actually have a lot of support, it's just that a lot of it is invisible to the casual glance. E.g.:

* On-the-job training
* The enterprise help desk
* Friends/family (here's where the marketshare comes in; you're more likely to personally know a Windows-expert than a *nix expert)
* OEM installations (really, this is a form of support; it gets rid of most basic installation problems)
* Third-party help lines (like ISPs, and their scripted step-by-step instructions for Windows)
* That guy who sells instructional CDs on infomercials (joking)


Ya your right about invisible support I guess. Lots of people just grow up with it and learn. I might add though that a huge chunk of support in my experience is number 3 on your list. 1, 2, 4, and 5 are all becoming increasingly useless to some extent or another.


Ubuntu is doing a really good job of trying to provide some of these things for Linux, but they definitely need some help. (speaking of which, it ticked me off when I got the newest Dell catalog recently, and there was no mention of Ubuntu).
Sounds like it's time to make a complaint...

Darkhack
September 11th, 2007, 03:17 AM
You didn't get the point of my post.

Yes I did. You're comparing the quality of Windows support to Linux. Talking to someone a thousand miles away with a flowchart is probably more helpful than "RTFM". At least they have a flowchart which will narrow it down to some degree.

I know you weren't advocating the use of RTFM or anything like that, but you asked why they get upset and I said because it is rude.

Scarlett
September 11th, 2007, 03:46 AM
Just curious, but what kind of support do most Windows users get on their side to be so outraged/upset by RTFM (don't flame, bear with me)?

Thankfully, I've never had the RTFM response. I think that's one of Ubuntu's greatest strengths is the help available on this site. I've also always received help on linuxquestions.org, or at least a polite, "I have no idea what you're trying to do so we can't help".

For me, and I bet a lot of other people who aren't very familiar with coding, system files and the more technical aspects of computers, most of the documentation doesn't really make a lot of sense. It's kind of like trying to read something in French. I recognize a few of the words but the overall context is way over my head. Best case scenario from there, I might try poking around at some of the commands I recognize and see what happens. Worst case scenario, whatever I'm experimenting with ends up breaking something and I have to reinstall because I don't know what I did or how to recover. For a lot of people, that's just a price they're not willing to pay.

That said, the support available for Linux is still better than Windows but that doesn't make RTFM helpful or welcome.

chessercizes
September 11th, 2007, 04:18 AM
I don't know much about the "linux attitude" but from my experience on these forums, this is one of the greatest places ever. People are amazingly nice, even when dealing with idiots like me


Just curious, but what kind of support do most Windows users get on their side to be so outraged/upset by RTFM (don't flame, bear with me)?

I really agree with this. I seriously think that all windows problems are solved by asking some friend of yours that is a computer wizard, and if he/she doesn't know it, then you just have to bare with it. I don't agree with RTFM because often people HAVE read them, and they need a human to explain it to them. And its just downright mean. But i get what you're saying. I think that there are a lot of awesome people willing to help others out on stuff about linux, and thats why i love the Ubuntu community =).

as danny joe ritchie put it:


No Big I, Little U!

=)

eph1973
September 11th, 2007, 04:28 AM
I've been using computers in one way or another for a pretty long time now (20 years or so). Most of that time I spent as a user who was interested in knowing what I had to in order to get what I was trying to do done. My first computer was a Commodore 64 back in 1984, but my first experience with anyone outside of the house I was in (i.e. some sort of basic network interaction) was in 1993, with my first IBM PC. Back then I used DOS 5.x, and actually, the technical support wasn't half bad then.

Then as MS moved towards a more GUI interface, I felt their OS got more and more buggy, and their technical support got worse and worse. My first exposure to Linux was in 1997, when I tried out Slackware, and I could not figure out at the time how to make Slackware to see my modem. Back then, the attitude that this article referred to was very prevalent. No one wanted you to ask a single question unless you had read 10,000 pages worth of on line materials, books, etc. And there was a ton of crap on the Internet that was worthless to read (as there still is). And Google wasn't around yet. So I went back to Windows.

Fast forward to 2005, when I tried Fedora Core 4 out. What a difference between 1997 and 2005 (of course 8 years is an eon in computer years). It was easy to install, easy to use, pretty intuitive, in my opinion not a bad OS. But, I ended travelling for work a bunch, and my laptop had Windows on it (the FC4 was on my PC). So again I ended up with Windows. Last month I installed Ubuntu on my laptop, and found it to be somewhat more complicated than installing FC4 on my PC. But, the laptop was designed to run on Windows, so I had problems with my wireless card (broadcom chip), I am running Linux from an external drive. So because of my odd setup, I think it was only natural to have problems.

But, I found these forums to be incredibly helpful. The support I found on these forums far exceeds what passes for support from MS, or many other corporations that have some sort of Indian based technical support. However, I personally believe that since I have had some experience with Linux in the past, and have been using computers for such a period of time, that figuring out some of the things on my own, coupled with asking the forums for help proved to be an effective combination. Unfortunately, there are many people out there who, (and I've seen this) when a box of text describing exactly what they should do next pops up, they freeze. They have to ask "What am I supposed to do now?". They do not have years of getting an idea of what will mess stuff up on a computer, and what won't. I would say that many of those people do not really come to Ubuntu (mainly because many of them have not so much as heard of Linux). But there are others with only slightly more computer savvy that likely try it, and if their hardware happens to be completely compatible, then great, and if not, then they get frustrated with the whole process, quit, and bad mouth everyone saying how uppity we are, and so forth.

If Linux truly expects to take any significant market share from MS, to become a major alternative OS, we, as a community, are going to have to deal with more of those folks who freeze when the box of text pops up that tells them what to do. And in many ways, over the years, I think the Linux community has come a long way, but I think it still has some to go, before the recent unknowledgeable Windows convert will be able to come over to Linux and feel completely at home. Just my opinion.

flatwombat
September 11th, 2007, 04:38 AM
I'm an Admin over at FedoraForum.org, plus a Community Manager at a couple of other Forums and I can honestly say that the article is off-base. Sure, there's a tendency for seasoned users to give instructions in CLI; it's the way they normally get around and it has the benefit that the newbie can open a terminal and 'cut & paste' in the instructions and get the desired result.

Sometimes, there are terms that are thrown out that the average newbie doesn't understand, but all anyone has to do is say "what do you mean" and the level of input comes WAY down to the new user level. You have to remember that most of the responders are long-time users who really want to give something back to the community, not show how 'great' they are.

Do we have complaints or angry exchanges? Yes! The vets and newbies are individuals with personalities and different levels of comprehension. That aside, most posts end with a "thank you!!!!" and, if not a solution, at least the realization that there were some humans willing to put aside their lives to help out a friend in need.

ant2ne
September 11th, 2007, 05:20 AM
What is an RTFM? I tried

antsvr@antubuntu:~$ man rtfm
No manual entry for rtfm
antsvr@antubuntu:~$

Darhack, eph1973: What is the Chuck Norris obsession? Perhaps "sudo" should be replaced with "chuck".
chuck chmod 777 -R /*http://kubuntuforums.net/forums/index.php?topic=3085338.0


But, I found these forums to be incredibly helpful. The support I found on these forums far exceeds what passes for support from MS, or many other corporations that have some sort of Indian based technical support. O, I was bragging to the wife how I posted a question and got a response within the hour. I asked her to top that with the MS support. BTW 2 out of 4 of our PCs run ubuntu. With edubuntu, I think the kids PC is getting installed too. That leaves only the wifes laptop. I keep telling her resistance is futile.
But there are others with only slightly more computer savvy that likely try it, and if their hardware happens to be completely compatible, then great, and if not, then they get frustrated with the whole process, quit, and bad mouth everyone saying how uppity we are, and so forth.And here is the rub. Linux needs more hardware support, in order to get more hardware support it needs a stronger user base, and in order to get a stronger user base it needs more hardware support. Or, some really helpful hardware diagnostics and driver fetchers. Like...
sudo apt-get video-driver

In my circle, If someone has a computer problem (translated to Microsoft Problem*) they come to me. It is only a matter of time for them to realize, that if they have an ubuntu problem then they can come to me also. (still working towards that Linux+ certification)

What was the point to this post? Oh well.

* Oh they do come to me for non MS problems too, but hardware problems are far and few between.

eph1973
September 11th, 2007, 05:49 AM
Darhack, eph1973: What is the Chuck Norris obsession? Perhaps "sudo" should be replaced with "chuck".
chuck chmod 777 -R /*

It's Chuck Norris week! See this thread:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=547092

That's what it's all about. Sorry about the off topic, but Chuck Norris compels me to answer his question (or receive a roundhouse kick to the face).

ant2ne
September 11th, 2007, 06:18 AM
It's Chuck Norris week! See this thread:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=547092Well in that case. Here is my new signature...

runningwithscissors
September 11th, 2007, 07:12 AM
Linux’s biggest enemy: its users! Arrogance combined with a love of obfuscation make the self-appointed gurus the real enemies of the cause; as they have filled the void left by a lack of social life by learning all the commands and common programs, they have built that ‘superior’ attitude that pushes away some new users and certainly scares away the curious onesLack of social life, eh?
Okay, how about you socially-adjusted n00bs help us integrate into society and we'll help you with Unix. Deal? :lol:

mrgnash
September 11th, 2007, 07:57 AM
Wah wah wah. What's so bad with reading the f-ing manual?

prizrak
September 11th, 2007, 12:41 PM
I don't think there are many Linux users that never *have* to open the command line.

I can think of many reason, but one of them is simply that there are a lot of things that come as source only, so you have to compile them.

And also, a lot of things just DO not work, for example laptops with broadcom wireless chips and will require extra things installed; or any troubleshooting for that matter.

As pointed out before, as long as hardware is recognized it is not necessary. For instance I never have to use the CLI on my laptop everything was up and running perfectly. If you get one of the new Ubuntu Dells you will not need to open the CLI. Reality is that MOST things that you see CLI instructions for on the forums can be done via GUI it's just easier to provide directions via the CLI.

Iceni
September 11th, 2007, 02:35 PM
What is an RTFM? I tried

antsvr@antubuntu:~$ man rtfm
No manual entry for rtfm
antsvr@antubuntu:~$


"Read The ******* Manual"

igknighted
September 11th, 2007, 03:16 PM
I see no issue at all. If a user shows a genuine interest in linux and doesn't expect the guru to hold their hand and walk them through everything, then the guru is more then willing in almost all cases to help the user any way possible. If a user doesn't show a willingness to learn on their own then perhaps linux is not for them. We are a community who thrives on freely giving to others. If we support leaches they will suck us dry.

I would love for everyone in the world to run linux on their machines. But under linux's terms. Meaning supporting free software wherever possible. Meaning learning to solve problems on their own (Americans are terrible at this because schools try to spoon feed them from birth...). We are here to help users help themselves, not to be a helpdesk for them to dump their problems on. Thats what canonical's paid support is for.

It's a harsh position, but its the truth. Users need some sort of culture shock to fully understand the nature of what they are delving into. I went a month without my scroll wheel when I started with linux and it drove me up a wall (slack), but I didn't ask the community to fix my problems, I googled and read forums until I figured it out. I would never have learned what I did without that major shock at the beginning. The more we coddle new users to the point where they don't know what they are getting into, the more we are hurting ourselves and the community (and these users) in the long run.

koenn
September 11th, 2007, 08:14 PM
This article talks about the Linux attitude:
...
I have had this issue personally (trying to ask any question on IRC and being told to RTFM), ... .

Well, actually, the author of the article doesn't even mention rtfm, but since a lot of the discussion here seems to focuss on those 4 characters :
There's different kinds of RTFM. Sometimes it's just a lame answer by a loser who wants to pretend he knows the answer to your question, but doesn't.
On the other hand, sometimes rtfm is just shorthand for "In far less than the time it took for you to post this question and wait for a reply, you could have found a ready answer in easily accessible documentation, a simple web search, or the man pages". In the latter case, I find rtfm a perfectly acceptable answer.


As for the actual article, the author's analysis is flawed, and therefore his conclusin is invalid.

a love of obfuscation Linux is just about the best-documented piece of software I've ever come across.


If you look at Unix in general, the commands, interfaces, etc are notoriously inconsistent and many choices are plain arbitrary This is so wrong it's almost ridicolous. If you look at common unix commands, you easily notice that there has been an active effort to make commands line options consistent, e.g. the option -r or -R means 'recursive' for almost all commands that handle directories, all copy commands (cp, rsync, scp, ...) take the form "copy from here to there" - commands are so intuitive that you can actually guess the correct syntax for a command that you don't know (if you have some experience with more or less similar commands).
This is no coincidence and certainly not arbitrary : the people who wrote those things knew they had to make their use intuitive an easier to remember - if only to make their own live easier. And you can actually find guidelines for unix programmers, to promote this sort of consistency.


Gurus love when you have to work hard to find an answer. That may be true for answers to interesting, new problems, but not, for every day tasks such as have an operating system running so you can actually get some real work done. The suggestion that Linux is kept complicated on purpose to 'please the gurus' is simply false.


And so on.
Maybe Linux is still a bit more geeky than Mac or Windows, but trying to prove it with blatently wrong assumptions is just silly. Or dumb.

sanderella
September 11th, 2007, 08:29 PM
I think he overstates the case. Ubuntu is easy to install and run, and the Forums are always friendly. In spite of my being ignorant, people have been very helpful and nice. The people at our local LUG are helpful, too.

Don't take this kind of criticism to heart, folks!

:KS

glupee
September 11th, 2007, 08:38 PM
Well, actually, the author of the article doesn't even mention rtfm, but since a lot of the discussion here seems to focuss on those 4 characters :
There's different kinds of RTFM. Sometimes it's just a lame answer by a loser who wants to pretend he knows the answer to your question, but doesn't.
On the other hand, sometimes rtfm is just shorthand for "In far less than the time it took for you to post this question and wait for a reply, you could have found a ready answer in easily accessible documentation, a simple web search, or the man pages". In the latter case, I find rtfm a perfectly acceptable answer.


As for the actual article, the author's analysis is flawed, and therefore his conclusin is invalid.
Linux is just about the best-documented piece of software I've ever come across.

This is so wrong it's almost ridicolous. If you look at common unix commands, you easily notice that there has been an active effort to make commands line options consistent, e.g. the option -r or -R means 'recursive' for almost all commands that handle directories, all copy commands (cp, rsync, scp, ...) take the form "copy from here to there" - commands are so intuitive that you can actually guess the correct syntax for a command that you don't know (if you have some experience with more or less similar commands).
This is no coincidence and certainly not arbitrary : the people who wrote those things knew they had to make their use intuitive an easier to remember - if only to make their own live easier. And you can actually find guidelines for unix programmers, to promote this sort of consistency.

. That may be true for answers to interesting, new problems, but not, for every day tasks such as have an operating system running so you can actually get some real work done. The suggestion that Linux is kept complicated on purpose to 'please the gurus' is simply false.


And so on.
Maybe Linux is still a bit more geeky than Mac or Windows, but trying to prove it with blatently wrong assumptions is just silly. Or dumb.
+1
I myself read as much as i can before posting questions and fortunately I have been able to find answers to all my questions before posting. Even if it's a "no your tv card isn't compatible!"
I just don't see anything wrong with asking people to try to help themselves as opposed to expecting to be spoon fed.
Having said that telling someone to RTFM is always best followed with a link to the manual IMHO.

Epilonsama
September 11th, 2007, 08:49 PM
It's Chuck Norris week! See this thread:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=547092

That's what it's all about. Sorry about the off topic, but Chuck Norris compels me to answer his question (or receive a roundhouse kick to the face).

Chuck Norris oredered me to change my sig and Avatar :lolflag:

RAV TUX
September 12th, 2007, 12:34 AM
I love aptitude. ;)

nonewmsgs
September 12th, 2007, 12:48 AM
Lack of social life, eh?
Okay, how about you socially-adjusted n00bs help us integrate into society and we'll help you with Unix. Deal? :lol:

please i want a gf like those guys at work who ask me what bluetooth is.

Foxmike
September 12th, 2007, 12:50 AM
I've been using Linux for 2 years now, begenning with Breezy and now running Gentoo as my main system. I have to say that I've never, ever been said to RTFM, ever. The documentation was clear enough to get a newbee working and learning.

I think that what some percieve as an "i-did-it-so-you-have-to-do-it" attitude, with Linux users, is that Linux is all about knowing to work with the system. There is plenty of documentation about how it works, and good quality one. Some Windows users are so used to just ask a geek to get things done that when someone comes and says: hey, here is the documentation you are looking for!" then they complain that they've been said to RTFM. But learning an OS, even to do the basics, as anything else, requires some efforts.