IE 7 New programers HELL... boycott sounds good

[sapo]

I work with php.. and currently i m developing some websites in xhtml and i m really caring about the standards, sometimes i spend a lot of time just to fix something to make sure that my code is following the w3c standards.. but today i saw i new thing to think about...

take a look at this:

http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/08/02/1853256



Put succinctly, the company has gone its own way for so long and now has to support so many developers who use nonstandard Web technologies that it will be impossible to make IE Web-standards-compliant without breaking half the commercial Web sites on the planet.


Btw.. this is the website that i m working today, i dont have windows so i asked a friend to test it in IE, but he had IE7.. a screenshot is better than words:

Using IE 7:
http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/6937/fodeu1lp.th.jpg (http://img176.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fodeu1lp.jpg)

Using IE 6:
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/2934/ie66hj.th.jpg (http://img171.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ie66hj.jpg)

Using Firefox:
http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/5797/firefox3nz.th.jpg (http://img182.imageshack.us/my.php?image=firefox3nz.jpg)

Using Opera:
http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/7997/opera1dx.th.jpg (http://img182.imageshack.us/my.php?image=opera1dx.jpg)

Now take a look at the website in firefox or opera:

http://xgn.no-ip.org:1000/prefeitura/index.htm

You can see that in both, opera or firefox it looks the same.. but in IE...

Btw.. i m not a xhtml nor html expert.. but i read the standards and make my code using it as reference... but i m always having problems with IT.

And IE 7 ISNT GOING TO FOLLOW THE STANDARDS too.

So... i have to waste a lot of time fixing things that are perfect if you follow the standards, but i have to follow the "IE's own standards" ](*,)

Btw.. i CARE about standards and i CARE about interoperability i make sure that my websites is a valid xhtml strict and i validat even the CSS, but most windows programers dont give a damn about it.. as long as it works on IE.

Thats why the boycott stuff that slashdot mentioned sounds like music to my ears...

[poofyhairguy]

IE 7 sucks. I tried it on my dad's Windows PC the other day. Its buggy, slow and ugly. For the first time in a while I missed IE 6. They ruined all of the best things about IE vs. Firefox (its speed and low resource use).

At least tabs worked how I'm used to.

[sapo]

IE 7 sucks. I tried it on my dad's Windows PC the other day. Its buggy, slow and ugly. For the first time in a while I missed IE 6. They ruined all of the best things about IE vs. Firefox (its speed and low resource use).

At least tabs worked how I'm used to.


but the main problem in my point of view is that they dont even think about standards.. man.. this is hell for me..

This website that i m working on is from a public company, i didnt make the layout (if it were me i would never let the logo on the right upper site with those "white" borders....

but i m the coder.. and i have to make it work in any browser, i m working as freelancer, the guy that hired me thinks that he is a html guru.. he asked me..

why do you use "<br />" and not "<br>" why do you use <input /> and not <input>

When i said, its because of the standards.. he said "I dont care, as long as it works on IE".

Man.. it pisses me... :-x

[poofyhairguy]

When i said, its because of the standards.. he said "I dont care, as long as it works on IE".

Man.. it pisses me... :-x


You just have to hope that Firefox and Safari use will increase...and force those guys to do better work.

[gray-squirrel]

I don't think it's enough to just stop using IE. If this kind of boycott is going to work at all, Web sites have to be written to follow the W3C standards if they are not already. And, I'll go a step further and say that if I design my own site (and I do plan to set one up by the end of this year hopefully), I will not even consider designing it to comply with Microsoft "standards". (We really should call their stuff "guidelines" or "suggestions".) Why bother catering to Microsoft suggestions since there are some who craft their sites to not work with anything but IE? Windows Update is a notorious example.

I saw the snapshots, and noticed that even though it appears that IE 6.0 did not get it right, it is closer to what it should look than IE 7.0. Are the IE snapshots drafts or skeletons of the site you're designing? The answer may help me understand a couple of other things better.

[comment about Microsoft and W3C validation deleted; misunderstood something I read earlier]

[sapo]

I don't think it's enough to just stop using IE. If this kind of boycott is going to work at all, Web sites have to be written to follow the W3C standards if they are not already. And, I'll go a step further and say that if I design my own site (and I do plan to set one up by the end of this year hopefully), I will not even consider designing it to comply with Microsoft "standards". (We really should call their stuff "guidelines" or "suggestions".) Why bother catering to Microsoft suggestions since there are some who craft their sites to not work with anything but IE? Windows Update is a notorious example.

I saw the snapshots, and noticed that even though it appears that IE 6.0 did not get it right, it is closer to what it should look than IE 7.0. Are the IE snapshots drafts or skeletons of the site you're designing? The answer may help me understand a couple of other things better.

On a slightly different note, it's interesting that Microsoft won't allow W3C to validate its sites. Like there's stuff to hide. . .

I have updated the IE6 screenshot, look at the bottom of the page :roll:

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/2934/ie66hj.th.jpg (http://img171.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ie66hj.jpg)

But i already fixed a lot of stuff before it.. it had a lot of more problems..

btw.. if anybody here is using IE7, please open this url an post a screenshot.. i m really curious about how it is looking on IE7 right now

http://xgn.no-ip.org:1000/prefeitura/index.htm

[macgyver2]

but the main problem in my point of view is that they dont even think about standards.. man.. this is hell for me..

Oh, they think about standards...they just expect the world to adopt their ideas as the "standards".

[gray-squirrel]

I have updated the IE6 screenshot, look at the bottom of the page :roll:

{picture}

But i already fixed a lot of stuff before it.. it had a lot of more problems..


Hmmmm. . . it's close to what Firefox shows.

But that's a lot of work to do which really should be unnecessary.

Maybe if IE were to add an option to render W3C compliant code properly. . . I have rarely used IE for about a year now, so I forgot quite a bit about its features (besides the cursed ActiveX support).

[wellery]

Don't worry about getting the website looking ok on IE7 now as IE7 is in a very very beta stage and there are many bugs to be fixed. Just make sure it works on IE6.

[m0biu5]

I posted this in another thread, but I will post it here again: http://www.w3junkies.com/toocool/index.php?language=en

As a website designer I also am fed up with the cross browser issues, so I think this exposure for firefox and other browser will help us all.

[ubuntu_demon]

I didn't even hope IE7 would be compliant with standards. Let's all boycot IE forever.

[poofyhairguy]

I didn't even hope IE7 would be compliant with standards. Let's all boycot IE forever.

I wish. I try to carry Firefox on my pen drive so I don't have to use IE....but sometimes...

I was all exciting about IE7. I thought "now when I'm on a normy's computer (my term for non nerds) I can use tabs. I hate not having tabs...."

But then I tried it. And it sucked, HARD. Really bad. Really bad. I know its a beta...but it would have to change competely.

[ubuntu_demon]

I wish. I try to carry Firefox on my pen drive so I don't have to use IE....but sometimes...

I was all exciting about IE7. I thought "now when I'm on a normy's computer (my term for non nerds) I can use tabs. I hate not having tabs...."

But then I tried it. And it sucked, HARD. Really bad. Really bad. I know its a beta...but it would have to change competely.

Whenever I'm on a normy's computer I make a habit of installing firefox and trying to argue the person into not using IE ever again (most of the time it fails but I continue to try)

[Kvark]

Yeah, IE sucks.

Just add a server side check when users first come to the site. If the browser doesn't identify itself as one of those that follow the standards then display a warning page...

This website requires a modern web browser that supports the latest standards for best viewing. It appears that you are using an older web browser, please upgrade to an up to date version. You need at least:
broswer 1, version X or later
broswer 2, version Y or later

[continue anyway button]

BTW. My uncle told me not long ago that "When IE 7 comes out, nobody will use firefox anymore".

[Stormy Eyes]

BTW. My uncle told me not long ago that "When IE 7 comes out, nobody will use firefox anymore".

Tell your uncle that when IE7 comes out, I will still be using Firefox. In fact, when Windows Vista comes out, I will refuse to use it unless I work for an employer that insists that I use Vista on the job. I am not willing to spend good money on Microsoft products when I can get Linux for free.

Frankly, the only good thing about Vista at the moment is the fonts. They're pretty damned sweet.

[DirtDawg]

I'll jump in on this rant.
I've been working on my first website ever (http://www.weeklyhilarity.com) and I've gone out of my way to study up on HTML and use Style Sheets as much as possible. Of course like the true web-n00b I am, I only checked my site on Firefox. Imagine my suprise when a normy friend of mine looked at the site on IE! I've fixed everything now, but why, WHY does Microsoft make things so hard!

I feelith thy pain.

[Stormy Eyes]

I've fixed everything now, but why, WHY does Microsoft make things so hard!

Because they can, that's why.

[Kvark]

Tell your uncle that when IE7 comes out, I will still be using Firefox. In fact, when Windows Vista comes out, I will refuse to use it unless I work for an employer that insists that I use Vista on the job. I am not willing to spend good money on Microsoft products when I can get Linux for free.

Frankly, the only good thing about Vista at the moment is the fonts. They're pretty damned sweet.
Ok, I'll tell him, he'll reply "what is stormy eyes?". Already told him that I will keep using linux and firefox. His reaction was about the same as if I had claimed to be using a hex editor instead of microsoft word.


but why, WHY does Microsoft make things so hard!
It seems to be one of their favourite tactics. To make up their own 'standards'. And perferably design those standards specially to make it hard for others to be compatible. That way people have to choose between being either microsoft compatible or compatible with everything else.

Be locked in with microsoft and microsoft programs and reach 80% of all users. Or be locked out of mircrosoft's 'standards' to be able to use all other programs but only reach 20% of all users. ...hmm, what will most choose.

Luckily in most cases it is still possible, just extra work, to be compatible with both.

[WildTangent]

why do you use "<br />" and not "<br>" why do you use <input /> and not <input>
youre not supposed to write em like that?! thats news to me...but ive never had compatibility problems doing so...

-Wild

[TravisNewman]

for future reference, if you want to get websites to support standards, don't click on the link that says "Experiencing problems with the site? Click HERE to contact the webmaster." The webmaster doesn't care. Contact the marketing department, if one exists. Let them know that they're missing out on thousands of potential users because they aren't standards compliant. I've seen this method succeed before, but rarely (if ever) do I see the webmaster change anything.

I think we may be using this more and more now that IE is coming out with a new version.

[poofyhairguy]

My uncle told me not long ago that "When IE 7 comes out, nobody will use firefox anymore".

HAHAHAHAHAHA.

Will it have extensions? No.

Will it have less security flaws (or at least open ones)? No.

Will it adblock, flashblock and otherwise make browsing better? No.

Will it block new sorts of pop ups? No (the beta didn't)

Will I use it for the most part? No.

Will most people, seeing as how 51% of businesses are still using W2k? no.

Is your uncle an MS fanboi? Yes.

Does he get anything out of it? No.

Does the open source software model threaten him? Yes.

Won't you be happy when the dinosaurs that can't get the model are powerless in retirement homes? Yes.

[DirtDawg]

It seems to be one of their favourite tactics. To make up their own 'standards'. And perferably design those standards specially to make it hard for others to be compatible. That way people have to choose between being either microsoft compatible or compatible with everything else.

Be locked in with microsoft and microsoft programs and reach 80% of all users. Or be locked out of mircrosoft's 'standards' to be able to use all other programs but only reach 20% of all users. ...hmm, what will most choose.

Rotten bastards.

[DJ_Max]

youre not supposed to write em like that?! thats news to me...but ive never had compatibility problems doing so...

-Wild
When using XHTML, yes. For normal HTML, no.

IE has always been the oddball when it comes to (x)HTML standards. When developing sites that use pure CSS, and no tables, a friend using windows would tell me the site was screwed up in IE only. I always validate my code. :-?

[benplaut]

Rotten bastards.

Agreed.

[Kerberos]

Slashdot will render OK though as it still thinks its 1992 :D

(the funny thing is if they sorted it out they'd save a bucket on bandwidth bills, lol)

[stray]

I love how people are spinning out conspiracy theories left and right, as though the IE lead was brought into a darkened Bill Gates's office, where Bill sat, Blofeld-style, with a Persian cat and said, "You vill not support zee veb standards."

The truth is probably a lot simpler, folks. Microsoft gains no direct revenue from IE development, but corporate customers locked into MSFT's proprietary IE weirdness spend money on Windows licenses. I'm sure the head of the IE team wants to make IE as great a product as any competing product out there, but they can't implement full standards if it means taking a chance on ticking off the big companies who've standardized on IE as a platform. After all, if Joe IT Manager realizes that he's gonna have to retool his web apps, he might just decide to go all the way and have everything written to be platform-agnostic... and then he'll have less need for Windows Vista licenses!

The fact that this is happening shows that Microsoft is hung up against the ropes, hanging on to the cliff of their biggest revenue source (business, aka VOLUME LICENSES) by their fingernails. By not implementing the standards fully, Microsoft is admitting that they have no other way of keeping such customers aside from appealing to their development budgets. (After all, if you never update your web apps, your development costs are zero!)

And as for the Acid2 test: well, it IS a test of compliance, but not exactly a real-world one. I'm also pretty sure Konqueror passes. (Yes. http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/1129)

As for the idea some commenters on Thurott's article put forth that it's not Microsoft's fault that sites don't work right in IE, let me give you a hypothetical scenario. Let's say you buy a word processor, which we'll call Type-O (har har) and let's say you're writing a term paper with Type-O. Now your paper's done. You've written the most brilliant paper ever! All that's left is to print it out and hand it in. However, when you go to print, the letters on the page are all scrambled. Is this Type-O Corporation's fault? Why, it sure is! Now, instead of a word processor, substitute the program you use the most at work: database app, inventory control, medical records, credit ratings. If these programs don't accurately reflect the data they are supposed to present, that could be a big problem! (Ever seen "Brazil"? Think of the Buttle/Tuttle mix-up.) OF COURSE noncompliance is Microsoft's fault. It sure isn't Jill Web Developer's fault; she's writing perfectly-formed XHTML and CSS which work really well in Opera, Mozilla, Konqueror... and it even degrades nicely to Lynx!

Now, on the other hand, if Microsoft can knock out 90% of the nasty bugs I encounter every day, I'll be a happy guy. Let's not forget that Microsoft only restarted development of IE--what? A year ago?--after four or five years of stagnation. Hell, I doubt there's anyone there who even REMEMBERS the codebase.

No, IE7 might not be perfect, but as a web developer, it's not my job to tell people what browser to use; if I do, then we're back in 1996 all over again. My goal is to make things work well in all browsers...and that includes IE. I don't use it except for testing, but Biff AOL User is gonna. So bite down and get ready for the little slash-star combos that allow us to hack around the bugs in IE7. And just remember: Even if they get 90% of the way there, that's 110% better for developers.

I'd love for all browsers to accurately implement all of the major web standards, but I'll take what I can get. I don't want to have to worry what browser people are using, but at least until IE 8, I will.

C'est la vie.:wink:

[sapo]

I love how people are spinning out conspiracy theories left and right, as though the IE lead was brought into a darkened Bill Gates's office, where Bill sat, Blofeld-style, with a Persian cat and said, "You vill not support zee veb standards."


Hum.. i would change the persian cat with money http://ubuntuforums.org/images/smilies/eusa_whistle.gif


The truth is probably a lot simpler, folks. Microsoft gains no direct revenue from IE development, but corporate customers locked into MSFT's proprietary IE weirdness spend money on Windows licenses. I'm sure the head of the IE team wants to make IE as great a product as any competing product out there, but they can't implement full standards if it means taking a chance on ticking off the big companies who've standardized on IE as a platform. After all, if Joe IT Manager realizes that he's gonna have to retool his web apps, he might just decide to go all the way and have everything written to be platform-agnostic... and then he'll have less need for Windows Vista licenses!


Sure, i think that we all know that.



The fact that this is happening shows that Microsoft is hung up against the ropes, hanging on to the cliff of their biggest revenue source (business, aka VOLUME LICENSES) by their fingernails. By not implementing the standards fully, Microsoft is admitting that they have no other way of keeping such customers aside from appealing to their development budgets. (After all, if you never update your web apps, your development costs are zero!)

And as for the Acid2 test: well, it IS a test of compliance, but not exactly a real-world one. I'm also pretty sure Konqueror passes. (Yes. http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/1129)

As for the idea some commenters on Thurott's article put forth that it's not Microsoft's fault that sites don't work right in IE, let me give you a hypothetical scenario. Let's say you buy a word processor, which we'll call Type-O (har har) and let's say you're writing a term paper with Type-O. Now your paper's done. You've written the most brilliant paper ever! All that's left is to print it out and hand it in. However, when you go to print, the letters on the page are all scrambled. Is this Type-O Corporation's fault? Why, it sure is! Now, instead of a word processor, substitute the program you use the most at work: database app, inventory control, medical records, credit ratings. If these programs don't accurately reflect the data they are supposed to present, that could be a big problem! (Ever seen "Brazil"? Think of the Buttle/Tuttle mix-up.) OF COURSE noncompliance is Microsoft's fault. It sure isn't Jill Web Developer's fault; she's writing perfectly-formed XHTML and CSS which work really well in Opera, Mozilla, Konqueror... and it even degrades nicely to Lynx!


Off course that the programers are guilty here, but my point is: while they still dont know wth is a standard, we are gonna suffer with websites with everything out of place.



Now, on the other hand, if Microsoft can knock out 90% of the nasty bugs I encounter every day, I'll be a happy guy. Let's not forget that Microsoft only restarted development of IE--what? A year ago?--after four or five years of stagnation. Hell, I doubt there's anyone there who even REMEMBERS the codebase.

No, IE7 might not be perfect, but as a web developer, it's not my job to tell people what browser to use; if I do, then we're back in 1996 all over again. My goal is to make things work well in all browsers...and that includes IE. I don't use it except for testing, but Biff AOL User is gonna. So bite down and get ready for the little slash-star combos that allow us to hack around the bugs in IE7. And just remember: Even if they get 90% of the way there, that's 110% better for developers.


i m not here to tell anybody to use this or that webbrowser, but if we just let it be, we are gonna have to play the microsoft little game to break down other browsers for years and years.
And as a webdeveloper i want my website to behave in the same way in EVERY webbrowser, but IE is the most problematic one.



I'd love for all browsers to accurately implement all of the major web standards, but I'll take what I can get. I don't want to have to worry what browser people are using, but at least until IE 8, I will.

C'est la vie.:wink:

Not just till IE 8, till Microsoft breaks or the world ends (or microsoft itself ends it) :roll:

[KiwiNZ]

I have given IE7 a good try and there is nothing in it that would make me want to change from Firefox.To me its just one big yawn.

[gray-squirrel]

Yeah, IE sucks.

Just add a server side check when users first come to the site. If the browser doesn't identify itself as one of those that follow the standards then display a warning page...

This website requires a modern web browser that supports the latest standards for best viewing. It appears that you are using an older web browser, please upgrade to an up to date version. You need at least:
broswer 1, version X or later
broswer 2, version Y or later

[continue anyway button]

BTW. My uncle told me not long ago that "When IE 7 comes out, nobody will use firefox anymore".

That is a good suggestion. Thanks. I'll modify that for my future site so that it will encourage people to use a browser that handles W3C-compliant HTML pages correctly. An upgrade from IE to Firefox. . . now that is an example of a real upgrade.

[gray-squirrel]

I love how people are spinning out conspiracy theories left and right, as though the IE lead was brought into a darkened Bill Gates's office, where Bill sat, Blofeld-style, with a Persian cat and said, "You vill not support zee veb standards."

The truth is probably a lot simpler, folks. Microsoft gains no direct revenue from IE development, but corporate customers locked into MSFT's proprietary IE weirdness spend money on Windows licenses. I'm sure the head of the IE team wants to make IE as great a product as any competing product out there, but they can't implement full standards if it means taking a chance on ticking off the big companies who've standardized on IE as a platform. After all, if Joe IT Manager realizes that he's gonna have to retool his web apps, he might just decide to go all the way and have everything written to be platform-agnostic... and then he'll have less need for Windows Vista licenses!

I don't think there's a conspiracy, actually. But I do know that Microsoft has a history of wanting to do things its own way.

That's not to say they could never come up with quality products. Sometimes they do. The potential is still there for them to do so, even now. But implementing standards will go a long way. I would consider W3C standards as a minimum, if you know what I mean. If the IE developers could develop a W3C-friendly browser and added other things, we would be in a totally different situation.



Now, on the other hand, if Microsoft can knock out 90% of the nasty bugs I encounter every day, I'll be a happy guy. Let's not forget that Microsoft only restarted development of IE--what? A year ago?--after four or five years of stagnation. Hell, I doubt there's anyone there who even REMEMBERS the codebase.

and



No, IE7 might not be perfect, but as a web developer, it's not my job to tell people what browser to use; if I do, then we're back in 1996 all over again. My goal is to make things work well in all browsers...and that includes IE. I don't use it except for testing, but Biff AOL User is gonna. So bite down and get ready for the little slash-star combos that allow us to hack around the bugs in IE7. And just remember: Even if they get 90% of the way there, that's 110% better for developers.


What good is it for even 100% of the bugs are removed when a browser is not W3C-friendly? Doesn't that mean site developers are still doing more work than they need to just to get the page to look right for every browser? Maybe we should classify noncompliance to the standards as a bug. ;-)

I couldn't really tell people what browser to use, either, even if I wanted to. A site can sit there and tell the user that version 5.0 or greater of browser x is necessary to view the site and refuse to download the browser x if they were dead-set against using it.

I thought Kvark's suggestion would actually give a site developer the opportunity to briefly educate people on using a browser which is compliant with standards. If one were to go above and beyond the call of duty in the presentation it may inspire some visitors to nudge others to design W3C-compliant browsers.

I don't understand what the fear is regarding compliance. Microsoft should be focusing on overdelivering, not overselling. What's wrong with a W3C-compliant browser which has more capabilities and more functionality?

[ubuntp]

They ruined all of the best things about IE vs. Firefox (its speed and low resource use).
You may want to try Epiphany.

[pmj]

Take it easy. IE7 will get better.

Chris Wilson on IEBlog says that most of the improvements and bug fixes will be in beta 2.

Link: http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2005/07/29/445242.aspx

No, I'm not going back to IE. I'm just saying it isn't really fair to judge the final product based on what it's like right now. It's a beta you know?

[jimcooncat]

Excluding IE7, is there a definitive reference out there that only shows only the subset of xhtml/css/scriptingfeatures that work correctly in all browsers?

I have some fledgeling web authors inhouse and would like to get them started right, without all the "well we used to do things that way" stuff. I only want to show them what does work, now, all the time.

I've got them started with <p>, <em>, and <strong>; next week's lesson is the <a> tag. Yeah, we're going real slow.

[poofyhairguy]

You may want to try Epiphany.

I have, its great. For most people it is better for surfing. Its WAY lighter than Firefox.

But I have that half gig of RAM and modern P4 just to web browse mostly.....so bring on the real deal I say (Firefox).

[newbie2]

Thursday 04 August 2005
"WE DON'T KNOW whether it's because our readers are predominantly those of a technical bent, but stats based on the INQ's own web logs over the last month show that Firefox browsers are significantly outgunning IE browsers."
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=25161
:) :)

[ubuntp]

I have just learned that "support for transparent PNGs" is being advertised as a new feature of IE7, while it really is just a bug that is finally being fixed. I just experienced that bug yesterday while i had to browse the forums with IE, and all the coffee cups have a nice grey block around them.

[sapo]

Thursday 04 August 2005
"WE DON'T KNOW whether it's because our readers are predominantly those of a technical bent, but stats based on the INQ's own web logs over the last month show that Firefox browsers are significantly outgunning IE browsers."
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=25161
:) :)

Man.. this is music to my ears :grin:

[sapo]

I think ill put this on my websites from now on :D
http://bleach-society.com/ff.gif