A good laugh..."Ubuntu Kills Linux, Then Self, Dell Suspected of Foul Play"

[binarybit]

I've seen it on a few sites today.

What's your opinion on it? Pure FUD?

Ubuntu Kills Linux, Then Self, Dell Suspected of Foul Play. (http://www.devside.net/blog/ubuntu-kills-linux-dell)

[starcraft.man]

I've seen it on a few sites today.

What's your opinion on it? Pure FUD?

Ubuntu Kills Linux, Then Self, Dell Suspected of Foul Play. (http://www.devside.net/blog/ubuntu-kills-linux-dell)

Bad article. Was biased from the start seems to me.

Point 1 I can't comment on, I've no idea how ideastorm works. Seems idiotic to me for every vote to be worth 10.

Point 2 If Dell thought Ubuntu would be a complete flop and knew they had hairline bottom lines, they'd have never ever started it to being with (I don't think Dell the man is stupid). His conspiracy theory that this is all to help Windows has no substantiation and seems to be a stretch.

Point 3: Scaling up will break GNU/Linux. That I think falls under FUD. Mac has clearly proven that a modern and competitive OS that's based in *NIX can scale up well when supported by companies and lots of dollars. It has around 25-30 million users, that's pretty big to get just to break now. Just FUD, like I said.

Point 4: Guys not seeing what I'm seeing, I see more and more GNU/Linux people daily, even around me here. Heck, Ubuntu's even gotten spots in the local papers in Montreal for tech spots and other such things.

Nothing worth seeing, some people might wanna just move on and ignore it.

[Bachstelze]

Really ? I think he certainly has a point here. If you swap Linux' and Windows' userbase, Linux will get just as much attention from viruses makers as Windows do currently. And the fact that the code is open and everyone can have a look at it will start to matter in a bad way.

[tcpip4lyfe]

Looks like a lot of fluff to me.

[starcraft.man]

Really ? I think he certainly has a point here. If you swap Linux' and Windows' userbase, Linux will get just as much attention from viruses makers as Windows do currently. And the fact that the code is open and everyone can have a look at it will start to matter in a bad way.

Are you sure? Firefox (one of the worlds clearest examples of OSS, though sadly not GPL) has roughly 20% (most put it between 15 and 25, I pick a median for example) of the World's browsing market I believe from latest number (soars when your looking at just Europe). This represents at least 100 million users. I don't see rampant code exploits abounding, certainly nothing as grand a mistake as ActiveX. I grant you there are some flaws and security fixes, and I'd say they were fixed on average in 2-3 days when really serious and few if any were exploited on a scale large at all. It is a better record than most programs I believe. Even Opera which has a tiny user share in comparison has had serious code exploits (most recently the bittorrent issue I believe, though was fixed fast) and it's closed source and small user base.

I would add that being primarily on the Windows OS (where a lot of hacking tools are based) and interacting directly with the internet (which is the most dangerous and uncontrollable thing ever invented, even if it is so great) as well as things like JS and XSS it has a huge chance of being attacked. Not to mention the source is out there to see. Yet, it still hasn't happened.

I don't buy the market share = malware argument. If people could, they would have by now trashed Firefox's reputation for security just for spite, to say "told you F'in so!" and laugh at us.

History is the only judge of security, and I believe some companies track records are self-explanatory.

[prizrak]

This is an old article I read it back when Dell just launched Ubuntu and it's even more wrong now.

Really ? I think he certainly has a point here. If you swap Linux' and Windows' userbase, Linux will get just as much attention from viruses makers as Windows do currently. And the fact that the code is open and everyone can have a look at it will start to matter in a bad way.
At least 30% of world servers run on Linux (this is me being very conservative), yet there are like 10 viruses for Linux and none of them are more than proof of concept. There is a certain burden on the user it is true but a well made OS will help considerably.

Are you sure? Firefox (one of the worlds clearest examples of OSS) has roughly 20% (most put it between 15 and 25, I pick a median for example) of the World's browsing market I believe from latest number (soars when your looking at just Europe).
Actually last statistics I saw was around 50%

[Bachstelze]

Servers are well enough protected because there is no dumb user in front of it, clicking on every link he recieves by email or visiting porn sites ;) If every such user had a Linux, I bet you would recieve much more Linux viruses by email.

[ticopelp]

I didn't even bother reading it all. Meandering nonsense. Sounds like a paid MS troll to me.

[wolfen69]

doesnt bother me at all. fud.

[DoctorMO]

Servers are well enough protected because there is no dumb user in front of it, clicking on every link he recieves by email or visiting porn sites If every such user had a Linux, I bet you would recieve much more Linux viruses by email.

The difference dear HymnToLife is that in linux and ubuntu we have programmers and admins who have taken it upon themselves to develop solutions to any problems found in linux; some even do this because they love their dumb user base and want to make sure it's not exploited.

We're not out to make money, we care about each others computers being safe in a way that proprietory software can't understand.

[starcraft.man]

Servers are well enough protected because there is no dumb user in front of it, clicking on every link he receives by email or visiting porn sites ;) If every such user had a Linux, I bet you would receive much more Linux viruses by email.

And Firefox? Every Firefox user is a genius (not trying to imply anyone's intelligence level)? You didn't address that. If this market share argument is valid, then Firefox should have been smashed by malware/exploits long ago methinks, they even have the source code.

[Bachstelze]

What's with Firefox ? Firefox does have security issues, too :

http://www.mozilla.org/projects/security/known-vulnerabilities.html#firefox2.0.0.6

And if one of those issues is found before the fix is released, it can be exploited. And it is pure logic that the more users a program has, the more profitable it will be to expoit it, and thus the more people wil try to do so.

[vexorian]

All right , the article begins with a lot of useless information about the process that made dell begin to sell computers with ubuntu, whatever, who cares, then it comes into this


Tsunami Wave #3.

By *pushing* Linux upon users that have no need for it, you are setting yourself up for failure.


huh? I never heard Dell was pushing it to users.


That user-base is very diverse: with different cultures, languages, and processes. Take into account everything Microsoft has had to work through by catering to everyones needsLeast believable statement I have ever read. Canonical has cared more in that regard than microsoft...


Linux does not have a secret formula that makes it immune to growing pains. Switch the market share between Windows and Linux, and Linux will be downright unusable. From viruses, to backward compatibility issues, to UI problems, to everything else.

Let me state it one more time since it’s a point never mentioned: With an increasing market share, Linux will have the same exact growing pains and problems as Microsoft did and currently has.

For crying out loud, nobody wants to switch the market share, and could we please stop the bull about windows' issues being caused only by its popularity? It is not true.



Vista has problems. So did Windows XP. As did Windows 2000. And 98, 95, 3.1. There _is_ a pattern here. Its called SP1 [Service Pack 1]. After which every version mentioned took off.Now forgiving vista's issues the article lost any credibility left.



, so in short the article is bull, it is based on the premise that now dell is pushing Linux to windows users which is not true.


What's with Firefox ? Firefox does have security issues, too :

http://www.mozilla.org/projects/secu...firefox2.0.0.6

Mozilla does not wait years to fix security issues, that's what made IE6 crappy, it is not the market share it is the ineptitude behind the creators. Now that MS did and almost suicidal effort to make IE secure, do you actually hear about IE7 exploits? IE and windows short ago were insecure by design, and the thing is that for most users it is still that way, what's worse is that instead of just making things more secure for XP. MS just improved security for vista which comes with enough garbage to call itself malware... If MS were responsible they would fix the XP security issues for free instead of charging a whole upgrade...

[@trophy]

What's with Firefox ? Firefox does have security issues, too :

http://www.mozilla.org/projects/security/known-vulnerabilities.html#firefox2.0.0.6

And if one of those issues is found before the fix is released, it can be exploited. And it is pure logic that the more users a program has, the more profitable it will be to expoit it, and thus the more people wil try to do so.

Yes, but the fact that the source code is out there is a *GOOD* thing. It means more people can look at the source and see if there's a possible security problem, and if so, they can fix it. As Firefox's market share grows, there will be more exploits for it, but not as many as for IE because IE's a lot easier to break into. The same goes for Windows and Linux. Linux is designed more securely (though not completely so... anyone who tells you that is lying) so we will eventually start to see Linux viruses, but not as many as we have for Windows.

[DjBones]

well, the whole market-share/virus comparison is unteneable because it fails to factor into the equation that linux is built to be more secure than windows.

i'm sure there might be one or two good reasons why the US government uses linux ;]

[cobrn1]

I'm of the opinion that any hacker that made an effective, in-the-wild linux or mac virus would become a legend, and in that vein and hacker worth his/her salt will be trying/have tried to make a linux/mac virus...

THe allure of cracking the 'uncrackable' linux OS is too much to resist, especially when the source code is there for you to look at. I'd look at this as ill-informed FUD.

Also, the point about scaling up was BS. As linux has such a good foundation at the moment, we'll be in a better position to scale up thet MS ever was, and they did alright for themselves, didn't they <looks enviously at 90% market share>

The idea that it delling ubuntu to help MS seems far-fetched, however, he does have a point - margins are very small and no OEM would blindly jeopardise the relationship with MS without good reason... however, I doubt the reaon is to promote windows - at the very least it's a step in the right direction, and we're not losing anything, but I think it's an actively good thing, and as more OEMs are following suit hiopefully more will realise that there is an alternative.

I see lots more people moving to linux, but maybe that's just the company I keep. I do see vista promoting people to look at alternatives tho - I moved for other reasons, but vista didn't exactly call me back... <understatement>

Oh, and while the web may be duped by the ideastorm voting, Dell wasn't - they set it up afterall - they obviously decided that that was enough people to go ahead with, so the voting system really doesn't matter. Surely that fact that Dell is expanding the operation to the EU is a sign that it's going well?

[starcraft.man]

What's with Firefox ? Firefox does have security issues, too :

http://www.mozilla.org/projects/security/known-vulnerabilities.html#firefox2.0.0.6

And if one of those issues is found before the fix is released, it can be exploited. And it is pure logic that the more users a program has, the more profitable it will be to expoit it, and thus the more people wil try to do so.

Please read my second response (after your first). I made my case applying this "greater market share = more exploits/malware" logic and I don't think it works. Unless there is something the hackers are currently missing that I failed to take into account to massively attack Firefox users?

Edit: Oi, lots of posters. Shouldn't have taken that lil break.

[cobrn1]

Servers are well enough protected because there is no dumb user in front of it, clicking on every link he recieves by email or visiting porn sites ;) If every such user had a Linux, I bet you would recieve much more Linux viruses by email.

But that's the main point of linux - the ability to surt porn safe in the knowledge that you are totally immune to virii - freeporn.notavirus;) doesn't seem so menacing on linux :D


What's with Firefox ? Firefox does have security issues, too :

http://www.mozilla.org/projects/security/known-vulnerabilities.html#firefox2.0.0.6

And if one of those issues is found before the fix is released, it can be exploited. And it is pure logic that the more users a program has, the more profitable it will be to expoit it, and thus the more people wil try to do so.

As pointed out already, while firefox certainly isn't immune they're far better at quickly fixing the problems. 20% is a big deal in the pc world, and the few vulnerabilitied of firefox vs ie should debunk the myth that market share = no of virii

[vexorian]

greater market share == more exploits (notice: this obviously applies to everything but servers in which coincidentally MS does not have the majority share)

Regarding it, let's assume such fallacy as market share == less security is true.
Let me ask this: Do we really want Linux to become the majority in the market?

I don't think I do, I only want linux to have enough of a percentage to get respect from software and hardware developers.

If Linux replaced windows in market share that would be bad, not because of the silly "more viruses" statement, but because it would as well be bad for competition.

Monopoly= no competition = bad for users.

Think of firefox, it got like 15% of the market? And it is now doing really fine, it is lame from major pages not to support it and the small pages are more likely to do that right now.

It helped web standards become a reality and it has also opened the door to a lot of other browsers, some of which I despise, but still: competition = good for users.

This said, even if we really wanted to achieve 85% market share, is it possible? It is not the 90s anymore, in which a company like MS could conquer the world, that cannot happen anymore (there's a huge network right now that makes news about software alternative spread very fast)

If the Linux desktop market ever reached critical mass (which is like 12% ) it would instantly:
- force MS to do a better job
- Open the door for other alternatives.

Using firefox as an analogy, take a look at internet explorer 7, if it wasn't for firefox MS would have never cared about improving their product so much.

A perfect world is not one in which ubuntu is the majority OS, but one in which there are like 5 different leaders and hundreds of alternatives, and the hardware and software developers have learned that focusing in a single platform is totally bad for them so the market is open.

Well, just my 2 cents.

[dbbolton]

i could not finish that article.

[prizrak]

Servers are well enough protected because there is no dumb user in front of it, clicking on every link he recieves by email or visiting porn sites ;) If every such user had a Linux, I bet you would recieve much more Linux viruses by email.

BS, for one there are plenty of dumb people administering servers, for two the biggest threat to Windows machines these days are internet worms that do not require user interaction. At the company I work at Windows servers got owned with a couple not too long ago, the Linux machines just kept on trucking.

[phrostbyte]

This guy is the most successful Ubuntu troll so far. Binarybit is just a suckpuppet, by the way.

[kanem]

This guy is the most successful Ubuntu troll so far. Binarybit is just a suckpuppet, by the way.
Yeah, I was looking at his earlier blog posts and it seems he is mostly into Microsoft development and used to talk only about that. But for the last 10-15 posts they are mostly trolling on Linux, Ubuntu in particular. He must have discovered that he's getting a lot more click throughs and comments when he writes this garbage. And we keep falling for it. I regret that it was even linked to on Lxer (which was where I saw it).

[Ultra Magnus]

Ha ha - He says "Vista has problems. So did Windows XP. As did Windows 2000. And 98, 95, 3.1. There _is_ a pattern here. Its called SP1 [Service Pack 1]. After which every version mentioned took off." - What about Windows Me addition - That was my first windows, and a very good reason to use Linux - No one likes "ME"!

[Dimitriid]

The user base and adoption rate is a flawed analogy as already pointed out, but the main reason why has not been explained imho.

Windows has the bigger user base, yes, but its is deceiving to assume "its cause users are dumb and windows appeals to them". Microsoft established their monopoly because they bribed, bullied and forced almost every single hardware maker into using only their OS. That is the most important reason for their higher adoption rate.

If Microsoft wasn't allowed to pursue their grotesque business practices then the entire world would have moved on to a different system by now, maybe *nix based.

And the adoption rate of the general population using computers would have been slower, since the learning curve is greater, but it would also mean that everybody using computers would have more than point and click skills.

All Microsoft did was prove the consequences of rampant free market economies since everything, including their design choices, are direct consequences of it. Now the rest of the world not using better systems, better designed ( which does means designed to be more stable, whenever or not that inconveniences "dumb" users ) can either cry me a damn river and keep supporting a monstrous corporation or sit down and learn a few basic skills.

[Blutack]

http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/evilmalware.html