PDA

View Full Version : How to Ask A Question



M$LOL
August 10th, 2007, 01:52 PM
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375/en-us

Funny how they treat everything as if it's a Windows problem with a step-by-step technical solution.

I'm almost surprised that they didn't say something like "(1) Reboot your brain. If the problem persists, take these following steps..."

lixy
August 10th, 2007, 02:32 PM
I much prefer this document.

http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

mips
August 10th, 2007, 02:42 PM
I much prefer this document.

http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

I've had that as a link in my signature for ages now.

@trophy
August 10th, 2007, 03:09 PM
I much prefer this document.

http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html


I hate that document. I mostly love ESR to death, but in this regard, ESR is one of those arrogant pricks that make everyone hate Linux.

If the n00bs knew enough to phrase their question the way he wants, they would know enough to solve the problem and wouldn't have to ask. And while this might be cool in a zen sort of way, it's not very useful.
If you've never used Linux before, all you know is "my wireless card won't work." You don't know what caused it, what information is relevant, or where to start looking to find either. You will likely be told to "Google it, n00b!" but you will have no idea what to Google for, since in Linux the answer is likely to be dependant on the chipset in your wireless card, which you will not know how to find out.

This is why I use Ubuntu. If you post a question on these forums, you're likely to be ignored, but you won't be flamed.

argie
August 10th, 2007, 03:15 PM
There have been hacker forums where, out of some misguided sense of hyper-courtesy, participants are banned from posting any fault-finding with another's posts, and told “Don't say anything if you're unwilling to help the user.” The resulting departure of clueful participants to elsewhere causes them to descend into meaningless babble and become useless as technical forums.
Does this forum count?

popch
August 10th, 2007, 04:37 PM
I hate that document. I mostly love ESR to death, but in this regard, ESR is one of those arrogant pricks that make everyone hate Linux.

If the n00bs knew enough to phrase their question the way he wants, they would know enough to solve the problem and wouldn't have to ask. And while this might be cool in a zen sort of way, it's not very useful.
If you've never used Linux before, all you know is "my wireless card won't work." You don't know what caused it, what information is relevant, or where to start looking to find either. You will likely be told to "Google it, n00b!" but you will have no idea what to Google for, since in Linux the answer is likely to be dependant on the chipset in your wireless card, which you will not know how to find out.

This is why I use Ubuntu. If you post a question on these forums, you're likely to be ignored, but you won't be flamed.

Two things come to mind:


Not every forum can or should cater to the same kind of people. There have to be fora for the lofty specialists and other friendly places for the easily intimitated fraki.

It behoofs anyone to do a bit of research (as in 'Google') or thinking before just posting 'help me or I tell people your product sux'. Any forum can best help people who are trying to help themselves. Thus, it is good advice also for beginners to carefully state their questions or problems.

Also, it is a kind of ill respect if I - as a total beginner - think that my problem needs or merits the attention of a hacker.


There are three kinds of people, those who can count and those who can't.

@trophy
August 10th, 2007, 05:22 PM
Two things come to mind:


Not every forum can or should cater to the same kind of people. There have to be fora for the lofty specialists and other friendly places for the easily intimitated fraki.

It behoofs anyone to do a bit of research (as in 'Google') or thinking before just posting 'help me or I tell people your product sux'. Any forum can best help people who are trying to help themselves. Thus, it is good advice also for beginners to carefully state their questions or problems.

Also, it is a kind of ill respect if I - as a total beginner - think that my problem needs or merits the attention of a hacker.


There are three kinds of people, those who can count and those who can't.


1: Ok, I'll agree to that one. But the chances (assuming that a help forum exists) that anybody will end up on a development forum asking "OMFG my wireless doesn't work!" are slim to none. If a help forum doesn't exist, one should be created.

2: I don't think people should demand help like that either. But there's a difference between "I'm not trying to help myself." and "I would help myself if I had the faintest clue where to start, but I don't, which is why I'm here asking for help." LOL I'm starting to think every Linux user should be forced to take a Muggle Relations class. We need to see the world as they do.

3: Are hackers really THAT narcissistic? Perhaps the Muggle Relations course is too advanced for this crowd... let's start with Basic Empathy 101. Actually, scratch that... it's time for a refresher on basic logic. If you release a piece of software, people are going to use it. If users are using it, they will have questions for you. Therefore, if you release a piece of software, there will be questions for you.

koenn
August 10th, 2007, 05:29 PM
I hate that document. I mostly love ESR to death, but in this regard, ESR is one of those arrogant pricks that make everyone hate Linux.

If the n00bs knew enough to phrase their question the way he wants, they would know enough to solve the problem and wouldn't have to ask. And while this might be cool in a zen sort of way, it's not very useful.
If you've never used Linux before, all you know is "my wireless card won't work." You don't know what caused it, what information is relevant, or where to start looking to find either. You will likely be told to "Google it, n00b!" but you will have no idea what to Google for, since in Linux the answer is likely to be dependant on the chipset in your wireless card, which you will not know how to find out.

This is why I use Ubuntu. If you post a question on these forums, you're likely to be ignored, but you won't be flamed.

esr may or may not be an arrogant prick, but when he writes about linux / open source, it's usually worth reading.

I've seen posts on these forums with descriptive titles such as AAAARGHHH!!! and HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! , and with questions that offered no information other than 'the stuff won't work". It's one of the reasons I hardly go to the General Help forum anymore, I had enough of those threads where 2 pages deep in the thread you're still trying to explain to the OP which information he needs to provide in order for anyone to stand a change at understanding the problem, let alone offer a sollution.
Some guidelines on how to ask questions are no luxury - and I find it funny that there are some similarities between the esr and the support.microsoft document.

"If you post a question on these forums, you're likely to be ignored, ..."
maybe that's because the question can't be answered (read "How To Ask Questions The Smart Way" ) - or because people who could answer it have long gone to more interesting places - forums where people do ask "smart" questions maybe ?

igknighted
August 10th, 2007, 06:05 PM
I hate that document. I mostly love ESR to death, but in this regard, ESR is one of those arrogant pricks that make everyone hate Linux.

If the n00bs knew enough to phrase their question the way he wants, they would know enough to solve the problem and wouldn't have to ask. And while this might be cool in a zen sort of way, it's not very useful.
If you've never used Linux before, all you know is "my wireless card won't work." You don't know what caused it, what information is relevant, or where to start looking to find either. You will likely be told to "Google it, n00b!" but you will have no idea what to Google for, since in Linux the answer is likely to be dependant on the chipset in your wireless card, which you will not know how to find out.

This is why I use Ubuntu. If you post a question on these forums, you're likely to be ignored, but you won't be flamed.

The type of people to whom you should phrase questions in the way ESR discusses are not the type of people who roam this forum, so thats not relevant. Now consider the gentoo forums. You either hear (a) those guys are a**holes, or (b) the gentoo forum is amazing. For the reasons ESR states. If you ask a noobish question (NOTE: noob != new user, although there is some correlation, hence the name) there then you deserve to be flamed for several reasons. 1) Gentoo devs spent a LOT of time and effort to write an amazing handbook. If you ignore it and ask questions without reading, you deserve a RTFM response. 2) Gentoo is a lot of work to run, if you start off not looking for solutions you are probably not the gentoo type. 3) Everything ESR says applies here as well. So its a great document, when applied to the proper situations.

@trophy
August 10th, 2007, 06:24 PM
I've seen posts on these forums with descriptive titles such as AAAARGHHH!!! and HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! , and with questions that offered no information other than 'the stuff won't work". It's one of the reasons I hardly go to the General Help forum anymore, I had enough of those threads where 2 pages deep in the thread you're still trying to explain to the OP which information he needs to provide in order for anyone to stand a change at understanding the problem, let alone offer a sollution.

Well yes if you're telling them what you need and they still won't give it to you, that's a problem. But it's not just the n00bs that don't want to learn that post. It's the newbies who are trying hard to figure the whole thing out as well. The fact that they titled their thread "OMFG (whatever) won't work!!!!ONE!!11ELEVEN!" is a direct consequence of the fact that they don't know what other information is relevant to the problem. They don't know what their chipset is, or that it matters what their chipset is, or even what a chipset is. If they did, they wouldn't need to ask for help. So as annoying as it is (and yes, I avoid the help forums a lot because of this) it's unavoidable.

And if you flame them for not being curious about how every last thing in their computer works, they'll think you're a jerk and go back to using an OS where they don't have to know what a chipset is to get their wireless working. Which is a shame, because people that computer-illiterate should probably be using the more secure operating system.

Billy_McBong
August 10th, 2007, 07:14 PM
Ask a skilled friend, but don't take their advice for granted. Many troubleshooting scenarios just got worse because "my friend told me to erase the E00.log file and"...
so we are supposed to a ask a skilled friend but then not do what he says?

aysiu
August 10th, 2007, 07:25 PM
The link in my sig (http://ubuntucat.wordpress.com/2007/08/06/getting-the-best-help-on-linux-forums/) is my response to ESR's "smart questions" tirade.

I think it's more appropriate for the times... and for the Ubuntu Forums.

koenn
August 10th, 2007, 07:41 PM
The link in my sig (http://ubuntucat.wordpress.com/2007/08/06/getting-the-best-help-on-linux-forums/) is my response to ESR's "smart questions" tirade.

I think it's more appropriate for the times... and for the Ubuntu Forums.
in content it's not that different from esr's. It is better written and indeed more appropriate for the "new type" of linux users and the forums they come to - like these here.
maybe make it a sticky somewhere on these formums ?

aysiu
August 10th, 2007, 08:26 PM
in content it's not that different from esr's. It is better written and indeed more appropriate for the "new type" of linux users and the forums they come to - like these here.
maybe make it a sticky somewhere on these formums ?
Seeing as how I wrote it, I don't think I should make it a sticky. If another moderator wants to make it part of the "read this first" beginners section sticky, that's fine. Of course, it's a little like preaching to the choir. Most beginners who would read stickies are the least likely to need that information.

As for similarities, that was my full intention. I think Eric Raymond makes a few good points. He just is a bit long-winded about his points and takes every opportunity to insult new users in the process. He's also obsessed with the idea of the people offering help being "hackers." We are not all hackers, programmers, or developers. Some of us are just slightly more experienced users.

@trophy
August 10th, 2007, 08:43 PM
The link in my sig (http://ubuntucat.wordpress.com/2007/08/06/getting-the-best-help-on-linux-forums/) is my response to ESR's "smart questions" tirade.

I think it's more appropriate for the times... and for the Ubuntu Forums.

That one's a little more fair to the new users. +5 classiness.

koenn
August 10th, 2007, 09:21 PM
...
I think Eric Raymond makes a few good points. He just is a bit long-winded about his points and takes every opportunity to insult new users in the process. He's also obsessed with the idea of the people offering help being "hackers." We are not all hackers, programmers, or developers. Some of us are just slightly more experienced users.
I'm not here to defend Eric Raymond, far from it, but esr identifies strongly with hacker culture, and that Howto refers to mailing lists (presumably mailing lists witj lots of hacker members) - so he writes from a "we, hackers" perspective

I'm not a hacker, programmer, or developer, yet the 'time sinks' and 'sponges' that just 'take and never give back' get on my nerves just the same. I remember reading ers's smart questions howto some years ago when I was new to everyting linux myself, and I didn't find it insulting to new users. It was more of a "OK, so that's how it works' experience.

aysiu
August 10th, 2007, 09:26 PM
I'm not here to defend Eric Raymond, far from it, but esr identifies strongly with hacker culture, and that Howto refers to mailing lists (presumably mailing lists witj lots of hacker members) - so he writes from a "we, hackers" perspective

I'm not a hacker, programmer, or developer, yet the 'time sinks' and 'sponges' that just 'take and never give back' get on my nerves just the same. I remember reading ers's smart questions howto some years ago when I was new to everyting linux myself, and I didn't find it insulting to new users. It was more of a "OK, so that's how it works' experience.
I'm glad you have a thick skin and can take with a grain of salt good advice given in an insulting manner, but you are not everyone or even most new users.

If you want new users listening to the good advice you have to give, give it politely.

mips
August 10th, 2007, 10:59 PM
1) Gentoo devs spent a LOT of time and effort to write an amazing handbook. If you ignore it and ask questions without reading, you deserve a RTFM response.

Agreed. If there is something worse than the Gentoo forums try the OpenBSD IRC channel. There is NO noise in that channel but if you read the docs and still have a question you will be helped.

My opinion is that most people are simply to lazy to read. When you go to Gentoo or OpenBSD you basically have no choice but to read and only after you have read and tried for yourself can you ask a question. I dunno but the rest of you but I kind of like this.

mips
August 10th, 2007, 11:01 PM
I'm glad you have a thick skin and can take with a grain of salt good advice given in an insulting manner, but you are not everyone or even most new users.


Personally I don't find it insulting at all. It kinda works for me.

aysiu
August 10th, 2007, 11:02 PM
Personally I don't find it insulting at all. It kinda works for me.
Then I would repeat to you what I said to koenn earlier.