Linux Foundation calls for 'respect for Microsoft'

[vexorian]

http://www.vnu.co.uk/vnunet/news/2196258/linux-foundation-calls-respect

Pretty lame, the whole idea of a "duopoly" is ... ... silly , I guess that if it really goes into that there'll always be other choices rather than using this new Linux after it is assimilated by MS I would have to go towards other projects...

updates:
http://boycottnovell.com/2007/08/15/respect-for-microsoft/
http://www.itwire.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14014&Itemid=1091


Speaking for myself, I have no respect for this behavior. It is atrocious. There is no other way to describe their behavior. And Mr. Zemlin expects me to respect this atrocious company? Maybe Mr. Zemlin needs to recognize that he is preaching to the choir - or at least to the wrong sinners. Even when Neil McAlister called on us to drop our 'fortress mentality', I vehemently opposed then on the grounds that Microsoft is the transgressor. Microsoft might make some decent software - I have heard from many people that Excel is quite good. But there is nothing in their behavior that warrants anything near respect.

The FOSS community is being asked to respect a company which continuously makes bogus claims about its poster child, claims that it never justifies. Sure, after a man rapes your daughter, it's only natural to respect that bloke.

[KiwiNZ]

Title of thread changed to better reflect the quoted story

[jrusso2]

Respect is earned and I don't see Microsoft earning any respect here by claiming patent infringements and providing no proof. Not offering silverlight for Linux and not wanting people to run windows on top of Linux just Linux on top of windows in VM machines.

[iPower]

Ha!

[original_jamingrit]

The article doesn't address the issues behind Open Source software vs. proprietary software. I realize that in some cases, Microsoft's products in fact do not suck, and actually do well. But I don't think I could grant the big M any more than a sort of grudging respect.

Although, yeah, I do realize not all Linux software is open source, as well.

[smoker]

i don't like the tone of the article, especially asking users to respect a company, who rampantly spread FUD, and intimates threatened legal action scare tactics against linux distros and users!

[vambo]

Respect who??
Things Microsoft does well. - aye almost as well as the Yakusa

And how does software get a carbon footprint :confused:

[KiwiNZ]

Respect is earned and I don't see Microsoft earning any respect here by claiming patent infringements and providing no proof. Not offering silverlight for Linux and not wanting people to run windows on top of Linux just Linux on top of windows in VM machines.

I thought MS was offering Silverlight

http://www.sdtimes.com/article/LatestNews-20070801-46.html

[Nezing]

Respect eh?
Calling linux "a cancer" goes down well for a chair throwing company,that is trying to "unstick" the glue of linux from it's "worried brow".MS has had it's day...time to move over guys,and let the "real" Open Source pour onto the plate. :)

[bchaffin72]

While I agree that there are somethings that Linux communities could do better at, Microsoft has done nothing lately to earn my respect, and it is not something I give away. I harbor no animosities towards Microsoft, nor do I have any use for them, and until they do something that makes me think otherwise, that is how it will stay.

[lepz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSnEguovxtc

;)

[tbroderick]

Microsoft has done nothing lately to earn my respect, and it is not something I give away.

Their business practices might not be the best, but I do respect people who spend money, time and effort helping others.

[bchaffin72]

Their business practices might not be the best, but I do respect people who spend money, time and effort helping others.

I can understand that, but it seems that they have spent money, time ,and effort hurting others with the business practices.

Does one really offset the other? Should it be allowed to?

[Nezing]

c'thia Spock :lolflag:

[Sp4cedOut]

I've been noticing the higher-ups in the Linux community are a lot less fanatical than the peons.

[KiwiNZ]

I've been noticing the higher-ups in the Linux community are a lot less fanatical than the peons.

One needs to see and understand the bigger picture

[Arisna]

Microsoft grows because of marketing and politics. Free software grows because of technical merit and community collaboration. Why should we respect a group that excels only at things about which we care little?

[original_jamingrit]

Microsoft grows because of marketing and politics. Free software grows because of technical merit and community collaboration. Why should we respect a group that excels only at things about which we care little?

^ made of win, sunshine, and celebratory drinks.

[Depressed Man]

Microsoft grows because of marketing and politics. Free software grows because of technical merit and community collaboration. Why should we respect a group that excels only at things about which we care little?

In addition the corporation would like nothing more for the free alternatives to die off.

Though I'd be willing to give Microsoft respect, if they earned it. Their consoles are pretty respectable (at least I haven't had many problems with them). It's just their practices on their home front (Operating Systems) that have me shaking my head.

[init1]

The article doesn't address the issues behind Open Source software vs. proprietary software. I realize that in some cases, Microsoft's products in fact do not suck, and actually do well. But I don't think I could grant the big M any more than a sort of grudging respect.

Although, yeah, I do realize not all Linux software is open source, as well.
Yeah, Open Office is a MS Office clone. It must be good if it's worth cloning. But I must admit, IE7<FF.

[tbroderick]

Does one really offset the other?

I think so. The work the Gates Foundation is doing is saving lives. I'll put that ahead of any business practice or software development model of Microsoft.

[Dimitriid]

There is nothing to respect, there should be nothing but contempt towards them, I wholeheartedly disagree.

[waldorsockbat]

Respect M$?! BS!!!!!!! it will never happen. as far a the duopoly well I guess if they want to get into bed with M$ I guess I will have to learn another os as in Mac OSX!!!!


duopoly my...OK better stop now before I get into trouble

[JAPrufrock]

If it were called GNU/Linux Foundation, I might take the article seriously. But it isn't and I don't. FUD.

[tbroderick]

If it were called GNU/Linux Foundation, I might take the article seriously. But it isn't and I don't. FUD.

For what it's worth, Mark Shuttleworth is on the Linux Foundation board.

[JAPrufrock]

For what it's worth, Mark Shuttleworth is on the Linux Foundation board.

Other members of the board include people associated with Intel, IBM, Bank of America, Novell, AMD and Motorola.

Oh, and I forgot Steve Ballmer of Microsoft.

[popch]

One needs to see and understand the bigger picture

A bigger picture needs to be there, first.

[Circus-Killer]

microsoft's own employees dont respect microsoft, how do you expect me to have respect?

[jrusso2]

I think so. The work the Gates Foundation is doing is saving lives. I'll put that ahead of any business practice or software development model of Microsoft.

It was common practice for the robber barons of the 19th and early 20th century to make their fortunes on the backs of the poor treatment of workers. Only to later in their lives want to be remembered for the good they did, and begin to try to provide some charity to absolve themselves.

For some background I would suggest looking into the lives of Andrew Carnegie
and J.D Rockefeller, but there are many others.

[popch]

The work the Gates Foundation is doing is saving lives. I'll put that ahead of any business practice or software development model of Microsoft.

Yes, it does.

The means to do so come from 'business practices' of MicroSoft.

Which subtract the money needed in some of the places where that software is being used.

Which - by using up money needed elsewhere - reduces their capability to save lives and such.

[tbroderick]

For some background I would suggest looking into the lives of Andrew Carnegie
and J.D Rockefeller, but there are many others.

Thanks. I know who they are. It's not even remotely the same. Laws are much different now.

[tbroderick]

The means to do so come from 'business practices' of MicroSoft.

Which subtract the money needed in some of the places where that software is being used.

Which - by using up money needed elsewhere - reduces their capability to save lives and such.

I don't follow. Are you saying developing nations are spending money on Windows machines instead of helping their citizens?

[steven8]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-gatesx07jan07,0,6827615.story?coll=la-home-headlines

[DalekClock]

Not offering silverlight for Linux...

It definitely said in PC Pro this month that they have it planned. And besides, if they were going to lock people into Windows, do you think there'd be a Mac version?

[Nezing]

Steven.I just read the article,on your link.Hmnn.Imagine if I built a huge swimming pool,and said to the locals,it was free to use.Then founded another company to drill for water,which was transported to the swimming pool.Only this time I charged the locals for "transport costs",which came out of their taxes.Good business practice on my part.Or does that make me a complete muppet?

I can see where the article is going,and it does not make (safe) reading.

[Nunu]

I promised not to get involved in any more debates about operating systems...

I will Show Microsoft respect as soon as they show me the refund slip from there bank account to mine for the money I wasted buying there products...





Ok I am calm again :)

[popch]

I don't follow. Are you saying developing nations are spending money on Windows machines instead of helping their citizens?

Yes, and not only developing nations. Allocation of funds is in most communities a difficult business. Since the amount of money which can be allocated is fixed, every dollar used for 'infrastructure' is not being used for the original purpose or mission of the spender.

Simple: a hospital can spend n dollars either for software licenses of for caring for people.

[ZipoTe]

Simple: a hospital can spend n dollars either for software licenses of for caring for people.

amen brother!!

[bchaffin72]

I think to allow good works to offset bad practices, especially when the money to do good comes from the practices, is just another way of saying the end justifies the means.

[darksong]

Respect eh?
Calling linux "a cancer" goes down well for a chair throwing company,that is trying to "unstick" the glue of linux from it's "worried brow".MS has had it's day...time to move over guys,and let the "real" Open Source pour onto the plate. :)

This made me LOL - MS had its day, and why do they still hold over 90% of the market share? Developers of linux distros have still go alot to do. In order to get maybe 7% of the market share developers have to make something which is much better than Vista or XP and linux is below both of these atm. I feel linux is always about 5 years behind MS and apple in terms of developement of an OS - it lacks alot of features.

Linux had a chance with catching MS as they were taking soo long to realase vista and still do as hardware isn't up to running it atm. But if a linux distro doesn't start developing its own set of tools and making a graphical tool for anything a PC user might need (this is what MS and apple have done and they are doing well) and adding polish to the distro i feel that Linux's chance will be over to catch up with MS or apple. Linux is fairly basic compared to windows or apple. Both come with much more tools and give a more polished finish than most linuxs atm.

The only linux distros that i see will make an impact on the market is those who don't give a damm about using only opensource software but making a distro for the users and use both. This is PCLinuxOs, sabayon (once they get it stable - its still very young but the head of it Fabio - spelling - is making hudge leaps and bounds with each realase - i see it within the year or 2 bieng the top distro) Freespire and Mepis once they decied what direction they are taking. I also see PCBSD getting more popular as they have realised what it takes to make a good distro - they PBI's are brilliant with 1 click install and they hope to add aload of graphical tools to the fray - i see this becoming popular. The average person doesn't give a damm how it works as long as it works and i don't see ubuntu, fedora, opensuse doing any of that atm - they seemed to concernd about using non properity software and distros like fedora are trying to make it as hard for the user to make simple things like MP3's and DVD's work, fedora is a joke , redhat should of pulled that project a long time ago - its damaging them.

Both MS and apple deserve alot of respect. They make their OS's for the user and this is where many linux distros go wrong - they do it to rebel against closed source and expect to be better than something that is designed to be functional - its not going to happen. Untill linux stopes worrying about Opensource and only using opensource will they be able to compete with Microsoft and apple. Untill then they willl not gain market share.

Let the flames roll in.

[igknighted]

Respect M$?! BS!!!!!!! it will never happen. as far a the duopoly well I guess if they want to get into bed with M$ I guess I will have to learn another os as in Mac OSX!!!!


duopoly my...OK better stop now before I get into trouble

1) You realize that if you use OSX your rights will be restricted even more than with windows, right? But hey, at least you will look individualistic and stylish with your iMac or MacBook...

2) Do you have any idea what the word Duopoly means? It means that there will be two dominant products that own the market. It means nothing about them cooperating, sharing, or being in any way connected. They just coexist. Check out the wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duopoly. Would you say that nvidia and ati are in bed with each other? AMD and intel? Boeing and Airbus? Of course not. But these companies all have respect enough to show the other professional courtesy.

This is all the article means. They do not mean to go out and buy windows, but rather to recognize what windows has done and still does for the computing world. Tell me how many linux solutions are as integrated as many windows ones? We can certainly respect that, and then strive to beat it.

As long as we sit around and flame windows then people wont take us seriously... because they use windows, and in many cases like it. Imagine if I went to your house and started talking about how terrible yours was and then tried to sell you mine. You would probably tell me to f*** off. Same thing with windows users. Respect their OS, they will respect yours, and then let the technical merits speak for themselves.

[igknighted]

The average person doesn't give a damm how it works as long as it works and i don't see ubuntu, fedora, opensuse doing any of that atm - they seemed to concernd about using non properity software and distros like fedora are trying to make it as hard for the user to make simple things like MP3's and DVD's work, fedora is a joke , redhat should of pulled that project a long time ago - its damaging them.

Wow... was there a reason for this? I think you really need to retract this statement. Just because Fedora is aimed at users who have more linux experience (e.g., not your average new linux user) doesn't make it "bad". It has its place and a large, devoted following (of which I am a part). Fedora also has an app called "codec buddy" that installs this stuff, making installing these things you mention as trivial as in ubuntu (if not more so).

As for damaging RedHat, I do not believe that Fedora damages Red Hat at all. Rather, their failure to support a distro for new users is what has hurt them (mainly in name recognition). Supposedly this is changing this fall, as they will start distributing what appears to be a "linux for the masses" distro on whitebox PCs. They are also getting licenses for common formats (wma/mp3 etc) LEGALLY. This will be a great step.

As for DVD playback, the solution is not to include illegal code like libdvdcss, but rather to (a) get a license to distribute legit code, or (b) fight the MPAA to get proprietary encryption removed from movies. I think major distros would support DVD playback then.

EDIT: @ darksong... if you feel like it, I would be interested in hearing your reasoning behind Fedora "killing" red hat, but it doesn't belong in this thread, so post it in the Red Hat section in other OS talk.

[jgrabham]

Whatever hsppened to "you dont gain respect, you earn it"?

[popch]

Whatever hsppened to "you dont gain respect, you earn it"?

Went away when you don't earn money, you gain it came.

[g2g591]

If Microsoft would respect linux, rather than try to eliminate it (through proprietary codecs, and false alligations of copyright infringement), then I would respect Microsoft.

[tbroderick]

Simple: a hospital can spend n dollars either for software licenses of for caring for people.

Do you expect them to install and maintain Ubuntu on their systems themselves? Chances are they either pay Microsoft or some company offering 24/7 tech support, could be Red Hat if they want Linux or could be some other company, or hire their own tech staff. Either way, they are going to spend money on health care technology.

[waldorsockbat]

1) You realize that if you use OSX your rights will be restricted even more than with windows, right? But hey, at least you will look individualistic and stylish with your iMac or MacBook...

And you realize that I will atleast have a OS that is as or more stable than Ubuntu and virus/spyware free like Ububtu that has not jumped into bed(linspire ring any bells with Microsoft which btw wants nothing more than to crush linux the growing thorn in there side.

2) Do you have any idea what the word Duopoly means? It means that there will be two dominant products that own the market. It means nothing about them cooperating, sharing, or being in any way connected. They just coexist. Check out the wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duopoly. Would you say that nvidia and ati are in bed with each other? AMD and intel? Boeing and Airbus? Of course not. But these companies all have respect enough to show the other professional courtesy.

Do you have any idea what happens when other OS makers start talking about respecting Microsoft and cooperating with Microsoft. It means there is a god chance there will be deals signed with them in the near future just like some have already done? and please do not tell me that you are so gullible as to think that it will stop there. Look at the pattern with Microsoft and the company's they see as threats.

This is all the article means. They do not mean to go out and buy windows, but rather to recognize what windows has done and still does for the computing world. Tell me how many linux solutions are as integrated as many windows ones? We can certainly respect that, and then strive to beat it.

Think about this statement.. what has windows done for the world,and how many times have Microsoft been sued over their business practices?

As long as we sit around and flame windows then people wont take us seriously... because they use windows, and in many cases like it. Imagine if I went to your house and started talking about how terrible yours was and then tried to sell you mine. You would probably tell me to f*** off. Same thing with windows users. Respect their OS, they will respect yours, and then let the technical merits speak for themselves.

As long as we give our honest opinion about the problems we see with Microsoft and how they conduct them self maybe we can get more people turned onto linux. btw if you are here reading in these forums chances are pretty good that you already feel like most people here on these forums feel.
I will not sing Microsoft's praises no mater how much money Bill gives away until Microsoft decides they want to cooperate with instead of crushing anyone that tries to take away there almighty market share. There is no room for innovation when that happens only keeping anyone from selling or giving away anything other than windows!!



OK sorry for the rant not intended as flame bait just MHO on the matter and we all know what opinions are like.:lolflag:

[Sp4cedOut]

One needs to see and understand the bigger picture

And I suppose the Linux Foundation doesn't understand the bigger picture?

[popch]

Do you expect them to install and maintain Ubuntu on their systems themselves? Chances are they either pay Microsoft or some company offering 24/7 tech support, could be Red Hat if they want Linux or could be some other company, or hire their own tech staff. Either way, they are going to spend money on health care technology.

That discussion would have different answers, depending on the regions where the hospitals stand. Also, it applies of course to other organisations as well. I chose the case of the hospital because much of the topic can be inuitively understood.

Consider a hospital in the western world, i.e. one in the U.S.A or in Europe. Obviously, the need and use computers for a very wide range of purposes. They do have a largish budget, and 24/7 support is not even questioned, for some of the computer fleet.

It does not matter if that hospital does its deployment and tech support itself or if it outsources those tasks. In the end, you need several items:
- Qualified personnel
- Hardware (Clients, Servers, network nodes and such)
- OSs
- Applications
- Tools for Management and Maintenance of Computers and Network.

In an Open Source vs Proprietary (e.g. MS) decision, the following points arise on cost alone:

- Personnel: same price; assume same number of people needed
- Hardware: in some cases, OS is less demanding and can use older Hardware, thus cheaper
- OS: Licensing costs with OS much cheaper. Do take into account not only the licenses per client but also the licenses for the server software which is often paid per seat as well (aka client access license).
- Applications: In the office, OO is much cheaper and some times better, as well. Non-Office applications may be a problem, either way. Large organisations (such as the united hospitals of an entire state) could use their buying power to force developer to build against an OS OS (Open Source Operating System).
- Tools for Management und Maintenance: not only already built into the OS OS, but also already known to the personnel. Again drastic reduction in cost.

In short: especially for large organisations (but not only for those) using Open Source software can save a tidy sum in the long range. Spending that sum on IT instead on the core business of the organisation is money wasted and - in the case of the hospital - lives put at risk.

Practically the same arguments apply to developing countries. The main difference in many cases would be that the cost for software licenses and more powerful hardware would be prohibitive (as compared with the budgets). Also, existing infrastructures and personnel might be less of an issue than in 'western' countries.

Also, the needs and demands for IT for hospitals is in many places much more basic than in western countries. Where 'we' need utterly sophisticated stuff and raw processing power for imaging and such, many a hospital in a more rural setting would be more than glad to get hold of a patient management system, a bed scheduler, a mdeication inventory program or some such, I believe.

[toupeiro]

I guess I will jump out there with saying I still have respect for Microsoft considering their early on contributions to IBM-PC computing. While one could say that Bill Gates built his company on top of the innovation of other peoples ideas, I don't totally subscribe to that mindset. Bill Gates openly asked for permission to use someone elses code and foundation, then applied his own innovation to it. And guess what, people liked it.. If people did not like what Microsoft was putting out then, they wouldn't be where they are now. I don't have much of a stomach for, and do not have respect for what Microsoft has become or what they develop, or how they strongarm the industry to change according to their desires, but I also do not think that destroys what they've contributed to Personal Computing. The fact is that while the name is the same, and the creator is the same, Microsoft is not the same company. They are less of a technology company and more of a proprietary standards and practices organization / techno-legal firm. Say what you want about Microsoft today, as any bad press they receive as of late they honestly deserve. For most people, they've done nothing to deserve your respect, and you shouldn't give it to them for no reason, but I started using PC's in a different era. Linux distributions and their distributors have earned my respect in the same ways that Microsoft did at one time.

[vexorian]

They are calling users to respect Microsoft when microsoft clearly does not respect Linux users.

- Microsoft has in several occations threatened us, Linux users to get sued out of patent infrigement? Is that respect?
- There is nothing more harmful to Linux or competition in the computer market than openXML yet Microsoft keeps pushing it , showing no respect to an already stablished open standard, if anything they are just willingly ignoring it, in fact they invented openxml just as an excuse not to support ODF which is what they should be doing since it is a freaking ISO standard!

Microsoft shows no respect for Linux users, no respect for open source, no respect for competition and no respect for open standards, if MS changed I might decide to begin "respecting" them but now, I am actually feeling offended by this claim from the Linux Foundation, seriously, it is silly.

Let's talk about giving respect to microsoft after they stop being this harmful to everybody.


--
Duopoly, I do not support this, I want a world in which 4 or 5 OS choices can coexist, with out the need of any of them selling out to Microsoft.

[jgrabham]

Im sorry, but give respect? If steve Ballmer walked down my street now, Id throw something at him out of the window (live an ubuntu CD or a chair). But seriously I want to hurt him and probabally would punch him if he ever talked to me :]

(I have issues)

[popch]

And guess what, people liked it.. If people did not like what Microsoft was putting out then, they wouldn't be where they are now.

Actually, in the first years of Microsofts's history it did not matter in the least whether people liked the product or not.

The DOS was bundled with the IBM PC. The people buying PCs did not know the first thing about software and could not care less, as using a PC was akin to rocket science, those days. Also, I do not know if there were any alternatives on that market. Remember: 640kB max, 4.7 MHz, Thats kilobytes and Megahertz.:lolflag:

[Nezing]

Im sorry, but give respect? If steve Ballmer walked down my street now, Id throw something at him out of the window (live an ubuntu CD or a chair). But seriously I want to hurt him and probabally would punch him if he ever talked to me


Ouch!!

JG,I would not go that far (need the chair),but MS certainly have a phobia against Linux.Fair enough,in the early days (IBM),who wanted to work closely with Gates and co,missed the bus,and with MSDOS-damn you,Mr,and Mrs Kidalls-they took the reins of building up a huge empire.But to me they have lost the plot,by trying to say that Open Source infringes on their patents.Which one's?
Ubuntu is the way forward-thanks Mark- (hooray Michael),and will continue to grow.Having viewed at first hand (work),the complaints about Vista,I'm glad I moved on in May.

:guitar:

[vexorian]

update with responses, for example this one: http://www.itwire.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14014&Itemid=1091