Abuse of admin rights

[needtolookatascreenshot]

I really don't want to spend too much time on this rather silly issue, but as I think these forums are important, I think I should at least tell the other admins and mods involved in this forum, what I see as a problem.

I answered a post by Kiwinz in the following thread:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=518792

Minutes later I received an infraction by Kiwinz for insulting an other member, namely Kiwinz.

I pointed out to him that it hadn't been my intention to insult him, that I didn't think I insulted him and I apologized for him feeling insulted.

I also asked him to do something I thought was obvious and I was sure that he would agree on, namely hand the matter over to another member of the forum staff, as Kiwinz was a party involved.

Btw., I took a look at the forum policy and to my surprise I found this:

Posting and moderating in the same thread:
This is generally discouraged. If you have participated in a discussion and later find there is a problem in the thread contact the other staff and have someone else who is uninvolved moderate. The exception would be if no one is available, you can close the thread temporarily with a post stating that it will be looked at by a non-involved staff member as soon as possible. If you aren't sure what to do, get an administrator.

As there were other forum staff available, I can only wonder why Kiwinz didn't think it necessary to involve other forum staff.

Instead I got this:

There is a misconception amoungst a minority on this forum that in order to argue against someones point of view they must first insult or flame that person.

You demonstrated that misconception , thus thewarning was issued to you.
This doesn't strike me as polite and professional.

Today then I received an other infraction for a post in the following thread:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=517694

Guess who gave me this infraction: Kiwinz.
Now I don't want to argue if it was justified or not, if others think it is, I'll of course accept it, but seeing that this thread is quite old and inactive, I can't help but feel that Kiwinz took it upon himself to search through my posts in order to find a post that would warrant an other infraction.

Again, this neither strikes me as polite and professional and I think this forum deserves better.

And before I forget, that's what Kiwinz wrote:

Dear needtolookatascreenshot,

You have received an infraction at Ubuntu Forums.

Reason: Insulted Other Member(s)
-------
There seems to be a trend in your posts

I again fail to see how one can see this a polite or professional.


I really find this whole issue rather silly, but I think it reflects badly on this forum and this shouldn't be.

I'm also under no illusion about the outcome of this. I'm sure the forum staff know each other rather well for a long time now and I'm sure that Kiwinz has put a lot of personal effort in this forum, however, I think maybe an internal discussion about issues like this would be a good thing and hope that my post will lead to one and prevent silly issues like this from occurring the next time around.

Thank you for taking the time to address this issue.

[KiwiNZ]

The infraction relates to

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=519461

Related rules

Forum Threads and Flaming:

Flaming and condescending messages: Flames are messages that personally attack, call people names, or otherwise harass another forum member (or any person). These, along with any generally condescending posts will be moved or removed at the moderators discretion.You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-orientated material or any other material that may violate any applicable laws. (Please note that the backyard has some additional rules specific to that venue.) Doing any of these may lead to you being temporarily or permanently banned from these forums (and your service provider may also be informed).


The other related infraction is

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=519064
A warning

Related rules


Be respectful of all users at all times. This means please use etiquette and politeness. Treat people with kindness and gentleness. If you do this the rest of the code of conduct won't need more than a cursory mention.
Respect the forum staff. We provide a service in our free time to keep the forums running efficiently. We will occasionally ask for input, but in some cases we will not, please respect our decisions. Also, we do edit for content, if you have an issue with our moderation, please open a request in the forum resolution center.

[needtolookatascreenshot]

Let me just clarify this again:

I don't have any problem with receiving the infractions, if other forum staff also find them justified. It's your forum and if you feel that my posts warranted an infraction, I will of course accept it.

What I do take issue with is Kiwinz behavior, as I described it in my post.

[needtolookatascreenshot]

I just received another infraction for this thread:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=518950

Guess who gave me this infraction: Kiwinz

The amazing thing is that Kiwinz isn't ashamed of his actions.

[KiwiNZ]

The Forum rules were written for a reason. They were not written for the amusement of the author or as a space filler for the Forum banner.

They are there in order for these Forums to run smoothly and be a pleasant place for members and visitors to find support for the Ubuntu Linux system.

The infractions and warnings issued to you were for breaches of those rules and have been detailed above.

I would respectfully suggest you review your posting style as insulting members is not tolerated and this is clearly stated in the Forum rules that you agreed to abide by when becoming a member of Ubuntu Forums.

[needtolookatascreenshot]

The Forum rules were written for a reason. They were not written for the amusement of the author or as a space filler for the Forum banner.

Exactly. So why do you not act according to the forum rules?

Let's sum your actions up, shall we?

1. You gave me an infraction for a post answering a post by you. Something that is strongly discouraged in the code of conduct. You did so, though other forum staff were available at the time.

2. Even after I politely asked you to let someone else, who was no directly involved, handle the matter, you did feel no need to do so.

3. Instead you kept sending me insulting and condescending PMs.

4. Then you obviously proceeded to search my prior posts, in order to find one that you could use as an excuse to give me another infraction.

5. After I brought this issue up here in the Resolution Center, you gave me yet another infraction. Again not feeling the need that in order to handle the situation in a way that would diffuse the tension it would have been better to get other forum staff, which I am sure are available, involved.


I'd also like to stress again that I don't take issue with the infractions, but with your actions I just outlined. If other forum staff find my posts have warranted an infraction, I will of course accept this. I know that I tend to write in a style that some people perceive as harsh, though that may not be my intention and I think it is made worse by the fact that I'm not using my native language.
However, I can't fail but notice that I didn't have one infraction until I gave an answer to your post that you didn't like. 24 hours later I have three, all issued by you.

[KiwiNZ]

My response

for your Point 1. The wording is and I quote "This is generally discouraged".
This is part of the guidlines for the Moderating staff. Forum Administration and the Forum Council are the Managing body for which I am a Member.
The warning was issued to you from my role as Forum Administrator and Forum Council Member.

for your Point 3. I replied to you with an clarification of why the warning was issued.

for your Point 4. Unfortunately running a Forum of 350,000+ members , plus my normal paid employment and running my own Business does not allow me time to search individuals records.

for your Point 5. The infraction was issued as a result of your post in the Backyard . I saw the insult and the members reaction and issued an infraction in accordence with forum rules. I also posted a general warning in the thread concerned


You have mentioned here for the first time that you are not using your native language. That may well be a mitigating circumstance.
Therefore my comment to you to review your posting style has more credence.

[needtolookatascreenshot]

My response

for your Point 1. The wording is and I quote "This is generally discouraged".
This is part of the guidlines for the Moderating staff. Forum Administration and the Forum Council are the Managing body for which I am a Member.
The warning was issued to you from my role as Forum Administrator and Forum Council Member.

I'm confused. So does you being a member of the Managing body mean that you shouldn't adhere to the forum guidelines?

What about point 2? Was there any reason why my request was unreasonable, or why you couldn't involve another member who was not a direct party to the issue at hand?



for your Point 3. I replied to you with an clarification of why the warning was issued.

Those weren't clarifications, but insults and condescending remarks.
This certainly isn't a levelheaded clarification:

There is a misconception amoungst a minority on this forum that in order to argue against someones point of view they must first insult or flame that person.

And this certainly isn't either:

There seems to be a trend in your posts



for your Point 4. Unfortunately running a Forum of 350,000+ members , plus my normal paid employment and running my own Business does not allow me time to search individuals records.

So, tell us, how did you come up then with a post buried several pages deep? It's not as if this discussion was still ongoing. There hadn't been a post in 24 hours. So how did you come up with it?



for your Point 5. The infraction was issued as a result of your post in the Backyard . I saw the insult and the members reaction and issued an infraction in accordence with forum rules. I also posted a general warning in the thread concerned

Which still leaves the question open, why you didn't think it the right thing to do to ask another forum member to review my post, as you were most certainly biased after all that had transpired?
Even if you think of yourself as beyond bias, which would be a very unhealthy attitude, it still leaves the question why you didn't involve someone else simply to not let the tension build even higher? Isn't this also part of acting like a responsible member of the forum staff?

Finally, I'd like to ask the question if you can honestly and openly state that you don't find it curious to say the least, that I did not have any infraction prior to answering a post by you in a way that obviously enraged you, while I now have three infractions against me 24 hours later, all issued by you?



You have mentioned here for the first time that you are not using your native language. That may well be a mitigating circumstance.
Therefore my comment to you to review your posting style has more credence.
Maybe you should start in your own backyard and review your moderating style? You didn't even give me the chance to explain myself, or took into account that on an international forum someone who isn't a native english speaker might post, simply taking it for granted that everything you perceived as to harsh was actually meant that way.

[needtolookatascreenshot]

I'm aware that the forum staff are all volunteers and that you do have more important and nicer things to do then look at the accusation of misconduct by one of the admins here, but I'd really like to get some reaction at least.

[needtolookatascreenshot]

Well, still no reaction, but instead I find this post by Kiwinz in an other thread about this issue:

Posting and moderating in the same thread:
This is generally discouraged. If you have participated in a discussion and later find there is a problem in the thread contact the other staff and have someone else who is uninvolved moderate. The exception would be if no one is available, you can close the thread temporarily with a post stating that it will be looked at by a non-involved staff member as soon as possible. If you aren't sure what to do, get an administrator.

Now the key here is that it is generally discouraged ,and this is right that it should be , however this Forum is a large fast growing Forum with a very high post rate.
It is not always going to be possible to follow this. The Forum is open 24/7 and thus is open over numerous time zones. Unfortunately it is very difficult for there to be Moderating staff to be spread evenly over all time zones.

For example there is many times that I visit the Forum and will be the only staff member present.

It is therefore appropriate for Administrators and Forum Council members to act in threads if necessary.

This statement is amazing for two reasons.
For one, I know for a fact that other forum staff was present at the time. So that Kiwinz feels he needs to give the impression that wasn't the case is telling.

Further, I fail to see how acting was necessary in this case. I could understand it being necessary if the thread had gotten so out of hand that it had to be closed, or if my post would have been so offensive that it had to be deleted or changed immediately, but this was not the case here.
This is about getting an infraction because I was supposed to have said something insulting. How could it have been necessary here to act immediately with an infraction, by the person who felt insulted? And let me state it again, other forum staff were present anyway.

Really, this is getting very frustrating.

[ubuntu-geek]

After reviewing the infractions I see why KiwiNZ issued them. Point blank your posting style is generally childish and really serves no purpose other then to troll these forums. I stand behind his decision 100%.

While staff members may be "on" the forum they can be idle, they can be here for personal reasons they are not entitled to come here and moderator all the time some do some don't its really their decision.

I reviewed all 27 of your posts and frankly I see others that I personally would have infracted you for.

For example this one:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=3143944#post3143944

How ironic, you are insulting someone who registered here and accusing them of trolling when you yourself are doing nothing more then that.

I have nothing further to add this this thread. The claim is warrant-less and serves no purpose. If you have any other further issues feel free to add it to the FC agenda and it can be discussed at our next meeting on IRC in a open environment.

[needtolookatascreenshot]

How ironic, you are insulting someone who registered here and accusing them of trolling when you yourself are doing nothing more then that.

I have nothing further to add this this thread. The claim is warrant-less and serves no purpose.

How ironic. You didn't even address my complaints.

You know, I stated several time that I don't have a problem with the infractions, that this is not about the infractions, that I would of course accept them and I do, but that the complaint was about Kiwinz' behavior.

I even gave you a list of five points I took issue with. Did you address them? No, not a single one.

To say that this is disappointing would be an understatement.
And calling me childish and accusing me of just wanting to troll doesn't really make up for that, does it?



If you have any other further issues feel free to add it to the FC agenda and it can be discussed at our next meeting on IRC in a open environment.
I don't have any further issues, I simply have the issues that still have not been addressed, namely the original issues I brought up.

But as you refuse to discuss them, I don't see how not discussing them with the same people on IRC would do any good. So thanks, but no thanks.

As I said in my first post here, I was under no illusion how that would end, though to be honest, I didn't think you would sink that low. But so is life, full of surprises. Anyway, just delete/inactivate my account please. This is not a forum I want to be part of anymore.

[needtolookatascreenshot]

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=519877

[~LoKe]

Feel the need to spam your link everywhere? The matter was posted in the appropriate forum the first time and there's nothing we can do about it, especially not here.

[KiwiNZ]

Threads merged