I got annoyed at elitests dissing ubuntu...so

[Blindraven]

I couldn't help myself, I had to make a video about it, I'm not even sure why.

you may/may not agree with points thereon, but you may find it interesting regardless :)

If you do agree, in some way, feedback would be great :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fRiMvzhAZc :razz:

[blithen]

VERY nice points. I strongly agree with everything you said. I liked.
"Install Windows you f**king noob" made me laugh.
But I've never heard these comments from anyone, that's what makes the Ubuntu community so amazing. Everyone is nice.
Anyway, nice vid.

I have a quick question, you obviously used a webcam for that video, what program are you using, if you ran it under Linux that is.
I have been have some problems getting I program that can get video from my webcam.

[Smu]

I totally agree! But I don't see that kind of behavior so common on the ubuntu forums...

[DoctorMO]

There is plenty of criticism to levy at ubuntu, where it's warranted; but none of your points are valid positions for any other distribution member to take up.

I'd rather just say that there are certain people who like to pick sides, even when no sides exist; we drown them out in the ubuntu community very effectively. I'm sure the cat magic helps.

[Blindraven]

Comments are really appreciated guys, thanks heaps :)

It is true though that no such nonsense happens in the Ubuntu community and that is one of the many reasons I love it so much.

I've used Slackware in a server environment for many years, but for a desktop I cant even begin to assemble how greatfull I am for Ubuntu.

[izanbardprince]

I don't think there's anything wrong with Ubuntu trying to be an easier-to-use Linux, at least they're not trying to be "cheap Windows" like Linspire.

[Blindraven]

I don't think there's anything wrong with Ubuntu trying to be an easier-to-use Linux, at least they're not trying to be "cheap Windows" like Linspire.

It costs more to buy linspire pro then it does to cost xp home, not good at all.

[FurryNemesis]

I'm in agreement. We all start out as newbies. I initially thought that I would use Ubuntu as a springboard to something "more powerful" like Gentoo, but after a year, I can see that there's no point, not on this system. I'm an ordinary user, not a programmer. I can compile from source if need be, but prepackaged .debs serve my needs 99% of the time. I've become so used to the command line and the Gnome/KDE ways of doing things that when I created a dual boot system a couple of weeks ago I had to message friends because I couldn't remember how to do certain things in Windows.

Bottom line: who are you (pointing at zealots) to tell me that I'm running an inferior distribution? There's a reason we're at the top of Distrowatch, you know. PCLinuxOS has done for KDE what Ubuntu did for gnome, too, and are you really going to tell me that that's a bad thing? Or are you losing your pitiful sense of superiority because, pretty much thanks to Ubuntu, Linux isn't something rare and secret any more?

[loudmouthman]

Its great that this is being said so please keep it up If there was a way to stream in your contribution on my Kyte channel I would

I want more angry and concerned Ubuntu users to really help an awareness that users are relevant

http://www.kyte.tv/loudmouthman

Spot on and thanks for posting, I imagine you had a certain amount of reservations about saying this but I am glad you did.


Nik ( loudmouthman ) Butler

[Blindraven]

I'm in agreement. We all start out as newbies. I initially thought that I would use Ubuntu as a springboard to something "more powerful" like Gentoo, but after a year, I can see that there's no point, not on this system. I'm an ordinary user, not a programmer. I can compile from source if need be, but prepackaged .debs serve my needs 99% of the time. I've become so used to the command line and the Gnome/KDE ways of doing things that when I created a dual boot system a couple of weeks ago I had to message friends because I couldn't remember how to do certain things in Windows.

Bottom line: who are you (pointing at zealots) to tell me that I'm running an inferior distribution? There's a reason we're at the top of Distrowatch, you know. PCLinuxOS has done for KDE what Ubuntu did for gnome, too, and are you really going to tell me that that's a bad thing? Or are you losing your pitiful sense of superiority because, pretty much thanks to Ubuntu, Linux isn't something rare and secret any more?

*Does a soul dance and praises*

Can I get an Amen?
:KS:KS:KS

[Blindraven]

Its great that this is being said so please keep it up If there was a way to stream in your contribution on my Kyte channel I would

I want more angry and concerned Ubuntu users to really help an awareness that users are relevant

http://www.kyte.tv/loudmouthman

Spot on and thanks for posting, I imagine you had a certain amount of reservations about saying this but I am glad you did.


Nik ( loudmouthman ) Butler

Very glad you liked it!!
If you'd like to stream my contribution I'd be happy to recode the mpeg to ogg/mp3/wav or whatever your chosen poison is *grins*

[Samhain13]

I'm a noob and I fully appreciate your opinion.

I have a lot of questions regarding applications and processes and all that since, as you have accurately put it, I want to do my own thing with my own machine. And what keeps me from asking is the fear that the "experts" out there will just tell me to use another operating system or ask me why I'd want to do what I want to do without giving me as much as a few basic ideas.

I'm glad that others from this forum agree with your opinion, others who are presumably better-oriented than I am. And it is comforting to know that when I get into trouble regarding my system, this forum will be a good place for me to seek help from.

Cheers! :)

[Blindraven]

I'm a noob and I fully appreciate your opinion.

I have a lot of questions regarding applications and processes and all that since, as you have accurately put it, I want to do my own thing with my own machine. And what keeps me from asking is the fear that the "experts" out there will just tell me to use another operating system or ask me why I'd want to do what I want to do without giving me as much as a few basic ideas.

I'm glad that others from this forum agree with your opinion, others who are presumably better-oriented than I am. And it is comforting to know that when I get into trouble regarding my system, this forum will be a good place for me to seek help from.

Cheers! :)

You are most deservingly welcome, and I am glad you to (wow, this is becoming more popular then I'd of imagined) agreed with and respected my opinions.

There are many unseen people who give a **** in this world, somehow Ubuntu scooped them all up, gave them an Ideal piece of the Opensource world and said "Take it away".

All I can say is mission accomplished.

[jusmurph]

"Install Windows you f**king noob" made me laugh.

Such things have are liking waving your **** in the air, it will irritate but the only thing it proves is just how little it is.

[M$LOL]

VERY nice points. I strongly agree with everything you said. I liked.
"Install Windows you f**king noob" made me laugh.
But I've never heard these comments from anyone, that's what makes the Ubuntu community so amazing. Everyone is nice.

I've come close to saying things like that on occasion <_<

Yeah, good video, I agree with you on pretty much all of it.

[Blindraven]

Thankyou m$lol.
and jusmurph, spot on ;)

[leo_rockway]

what you fail to see is that sometimes the people in the slackware channel get asked stupid questions time and time again... i'd be pissed too.
and if you ask "who's to judge what question is stupid?" then i have to say that a stupid question is the one you ask when you can get the answer by yourself. people dont get the "RTFM" answer or the "google is your friend" answer just because. if you go to freenode and ask how to get a broadcom wifi card running on a dell you're bound to get flamed simply because there are many websites telling you how to fix that.

now... i don't agree at all w/ those that say that ubuntu is a worse distro than slackware cuz it has packets... ubuntu is a worse distro because it comes w/ gnome by default!!! (lol j/k!)

seriously... the ubuntuforum is here to help you w/ those retarded questions you fear asking one of the gurus. i haven't seen anybody getting the "RTFM" answer in here so far.

BTW... linux is def not for everybody, some people shouldn't leave ******* at all...

[Blindraven]

what you fail to see is that sometimes the people in the slackware channel get asked stupid questions time and time again... i'd be pissed too.

I think you have skimmed past the entire purpose of the video, everyone's so far contributing (and positive) posts and drawn your own conclusion.



and if you ask "who's to judge what question is stupid?" then i have to say that a stupid question is the one you ask when you can get the answer by yourself. people dont get the "RTFM" answer or the "google is your friend" answer just because. if you go to freenode and ask how to get a broadcom wifi card running on a dell you're bound to get flamed simply because there are many websites telling you how to fix that.

Here you have established (by assumption) that :

A. everyone who asks a question has not already searched google beforehand.

B.Polite people asking genuine questions deserve to be flamed

and

C.I never made any "who's to judge" statement anywhere in my post or video, you have ensued that line yourself.





seriously... the ubuntuforum is here to help you w/ those retarded questions you fear asking one of the gurus. i haven't seen anybody getting the "RTFM" answer in here so far.

I am a qualified systems administrator with a dozen years of experience, here you have flamed the entire forum and made an umbrella presumption that everyone who asks questions and contributes to this community is "retarded".

And finally,


]BTW... linux is def not for everybody, some people shouldn't leave ******* at all...

You were the first negative and least contributive post on this otherwise positive thread, your failure to establish any "real" point other then then flaming others and sharing your derogatory pseudo-views is seldom called for and not wanted.

And in your last poorly structured paragraph you have given me insight as to why this thread seems to have annoyed you so much.
This video hit your nail on the head.

[xpod]

I have a lot of questions regarding applications and processes and all that since, as you have accurately put it, I want to do my own thing with my own machine. And what keeps me from asking is the fear that the "experts" out there will just tell me to use another operating system or ask me why I'd want to do what I want to do without giving me as much as a few basic ideas.

There is no such thing as a stupid question here at UF........being the ultimate noob i was/am i probably asked more stupid seeming questions than most during my first weeks and months but all i ever recieved were nice sensible replys..

Of course, i do like a bit of fun regardless so even the not so sensible responses elsewhere were always welcome too.:twisted:

If certain groups of new users asked more stupid seeming questions the first posts they often make might not end up in the desktop readiness thread so quickly....imo

Never be afarid to ask if you dont know.....regardless of goolge:)

[igknighted]

If I had the time I would make a response video, because honestly, while the sentiment you are upset about exists, we as a community invite it. We trumpet around how great Ubuntu is more than any other distro... and while it is a great distro, it is still just another distro. And until we as a community understand that, the sentiment you are upset about will always exist. It's not everyone, but the only operating system with more fanboyism is apple, and we all know how obnoxious apple fanboys can be. Just go to sites like digg and see how many Ubuntu stories make it to the front page compared to all other distros combined. And then try to tell me that there is that much more interesting news coming from Ubuntu than all other distros. People don't hate Ubuntu, they hate the fanboyism behind it.

[Blindraven]

There is no such thing as a stupid question here at UF....

:KS:KS

[loudmouthman]

Very glad you liked it!!
If you'd like to stream my contribution I'd be happy to recode the mpeg to ogg/mp3/wav or whatever your chosen poison is *grins*

Actually its more fun than that, Id just like to be able to grab the rss for your Post and place it into Kyte.tv so it would appear there. oh well I guess this will be done by some other content provider. Thanks for the offer though

[loudmouthman]

[QUOTE=leo_rockway;3141366]what you fail to see is that sometimes the people in the slackware channel get asked stupid questions time and time again.../QUOTE]

Wow and its clearly because THEY HAVE TO BE THERE that they hear the question time and time again.

Is it so impossible to understand that a new user is NEW and by default is not aware of the commitment to a volunteer effort. So when you hear the repeated questions you can either respond politely or not at all is a better choice than to annoy the new user with trite, impolite or jfgi suggestions.

[leo_rockway]

I think you have skimmed past the entire purpose of the video, everyone's so far contributing (and positive) posts and drawn your own conclusion.

Well... I thought you were up for debate, not for just getting your opinions praised on.


Here you have established (by assumption) that :

A. everyone who asks a question has not already searched google beforehand.


i've seen plenty of times people that DO NOT search google and want everything chewed on. that's the kind of people i was talking about. so YES, i was def assuming there are people that do that cuz it is tru.



B.Polite people asking genuine questions deserve to be flamed


not flamed, but politely be told to do a lil research before asking questions whose answers are everywhere.



C.I never made any "who's to judge" statement anywhere in my post or video, you have ensued that line yourself.


i never said you did... i wrote and IF before that line




I am a qualified systems administrator with a dozen years of experience, here you have flamed the entire forum and made an umbrella presumption that everyone who asks questions and contributes to this community is "retarded".


i meant retarded as a joke... sorry if i offended you. i tend to be sarcastic all the time and i forget that sarcasm doesn't translate well on the inet.



You were the first negative and least contributive post on this otherwise positive thread, your failure to establish any "real" point other then then flaming others and sharing your derogatory pseudo-views is seldom called for and not wanted.

you're like the typical noob (notice noob != new user) that when gets an answer that he doesnt like goes running back to mommy.



And in your last poorly structured paragraph you have given me insight as to why this thread seems to have annoyed you so much.

sorry... my ad hominem sensor just went wild right there!!!1!1!!ELEVEN! (sorry... i shall not write ELEVEN as ! in front of thee) fyi... im a (wait... what word did you use b4?) "qualified" english translator... i do know my grammar, my paragraph structures, my spelling and whatnot which doesnt mean i'm forced to used them on the inet... so... what gives? i didn't know i was posting in the same thread as mr adolf spelling hittler. next time i'll write a proper ESSAY that fits your ideas and victorian english structures.


This video hit your nail on the head.
sorry... i thought it was me a couple of hours ago that was helping new users w/ their doubts. i must be very very confussed. no wonder w/ people from slackware get pissed...

[Blindraven]

Actually its more fun than that, Id just like to be able to grab the rss for your Post and place it into Kyte.tv so it would appear there. oh well I guess this will be done by some other content provider. Thanks for the offer though

You asked, I offered, no problemo :)
I should make one of them things myself!

[leo_rockway]

[QUOTE=leo_rockway;3141366]what you fail to see is that sometimes the people in the slackware channel get asked stupid questions time and time again.../QUOTE]

Wow and its clearly because THEY HAVE TO BE THERE that they hear the question time and time again.

Is it so impossible to understand that a new user is NEW and by default is not aware of the commitment to a volunteer effort. So when you hear the repeated questions you can either respond politely or not at all is a better choice than to annoy the new user with trite, impolite or jfgi suggestions.

no, they don't have to be there... that's the thing and getting a n00b to repeat the same question 8+ times in less than 2 minutes is annoying! if that scares him away from slackware then fine... UF will be there to help him w/ an easier distro anyway.

[purdy hate machine]

You were the first negative and least contributive post on this otherwise positive thread, your failure to establish any "real" point other then then flaming others and sharing your derogatory pseudo-views is seldom called for and not wanted.

Oh dear oh dear, if you can’t accept a little negative criticism then you really shouldn’t publicly air your views in the first place. It’s very presumptuous of you to assume that another forum members views are not wanted here just because they differ from your own, that statement alone has you teetering on the brink of the elitism that so angered you into making your original post in the first place.

[xpod]

Quote:
Originally Posted by xpod View Post
You were the first negative and least contributive post on this otherwise positive thread, your failure to establish any "real" point other then then flaming others and sharing your derogatory pseudo-views is seldom called for and not wanted.
Oh dear oh dear, if you can’t accept a little negative criticism then you really shouldn’t publicly air your views in the first place. It’s very presumptuous of you to assume that another forum members views are not wanted here just because they differ from your own, that statement alone has you teetering on the brink of the elitism that so angered you into making your original post in the first place.

Excuse me.....but that is not my post you seem to be quoting:confused:
Below is my only post,prior to this one in here




There is no such thing as a stupid question here at UF........being the ultimate noob i was/am i probably asked more stupid seeming questions than most during my first weeks and months but all i ever recieved were nice sensible replys..

Of course, i do like a bit of fun regardless so even the not so sensible responses elsewhere were always welcome too.

If certain groups of new users asked more stupid seeming questions the first posts they often make might not end up in the desktop readiness thread so quickly....imo

Never be afarid to ask if you dont know.....regardless of goolge

[Blindraven]

Such things have are liking waving your **** in the air, it will irritate but the only thing it proves is just how little it is.

Exactly :KS:KS

[loudmouthman]

And here is yet another example of things that I get annoyed about , as you can see from the recent comment on my Blog


http://www.loudmouthman.com/2007/08/06/cam-i-get-a-witness/#comment-6123

The comment
"Open sourcing Flex was great news (and I totally support Adobe in this field) but it really has no relation to Flash. I don’t see why I should support Adobe Flash player just because I support an open source SDK for rich web apps produced by the same company…"

Leads me to wonder if OSS will ever be able to integrate with the rest of the worlds communities or are we expecting to make no contribution to compromise ?

[Blindraven]

-edited, the post below says it best-

[DoctorMO]

i've seen plenty of times people that DO NOT search google and want everything chewed on. that's the kind of people i was talking about. so YES, i was def assuming there are people that do that cuz it is tru.

That view would would be truly annoying if the user who is expected to use the google search engine (or other search engines) knows something about what he's asking about. I'll assume you understand the phrase RIRA (rubbish in rubbish out); a new user not only faces the prospect of not knowing the answer to her immediate problem, but also the fact that they have no clue what any of the key words are that could be used to describe the problem. anything a new user could think of searching for would be so generic as to defeat the very idea of searching.

On the other hand, with patience and understanding a human volunteer can fill in all these missing key words which often the new user _will_ go away and do further google searches to understand how it works or if there are similar solutions if the first didn't work. Sometimes new users are just asking advice on what is better or more preferred solution to a particular problem to understand the solution space better.

I think this mentality that another person asking a question must hold the exact same variable scope as yourself is deeply flawed. both as an outlook in a community and a personal philosophy.


are we expecting to make no contribution to compromise

It is expected of us in the free software community to compromise on everything. while we are called zealots if we hold even simple principles as important. I take responsibility for having the principles I do with regards to free software and open source. I wonder sometimes if the compromisers are even half as willing to take responsibility for the decay in value that they help bring about. I also think they compromise automatically, like some kind of mental reflex action to conflicting arguments instead of reasoning.

[Blindraven]

VERY nice points. I strongly agree with everything you said. I liked.
"Install Windows you f**king noob" made me laugh.
But I've never heard these comments from anyone, that's what makes the Ubuntu community so amazing. Everyone is nice.
Anyway, nice vid.

I have a quick question, you obviously used a webcam for that video, what program are you using, if you ran it under Linux that is.
I have been have some problems getting I program that can get video from my webcam.

I use a Sony DSC-W50 digital camera and I simply use its very nifty (and somewhat surprising in quality) record feature, I then just plug it in and let wine/Picasa do the rest.

[leo_rockway]

@DoctorMO

that being the case i agree w/ you 100%. it's hard to find cli commands online...

but it's getting things like this that annoy me; when a n00b connects to freenode and you get this::

01:05:20 noob: my sound dont work what do i do?
01:05:35 noob: my sound dont work what do i do?
01:05:58 noob: my sound dont work what do i do?

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!

a) i already read you... all 3 times, thank you very much!
b) i don't know what you can do, i'm not inside your comp. what is your soundcard, distro, version, etc?
c) a shy hello wouldn't hurt either.

what you don't understand is that noobs are always annoying. a noob is not a new user. a noob is a person that lacks netiquette, that lacks common sense and that just happens to be a new lignux user.

[notwen]

irc & forums or any other type of support "area" generally has an ignore feature. i know i use this alot on efnet. regardless if you're in a channel which is likely to get defaulted by new users as a "support" channel, just because the user joins and asks an ignorant question in your opinion does not mean it deserves an ignorant answer. simply do not reply, ignore them if their inferior knowlegde of linux annoys you or better yet, send them to an appropriate channel/site if you feel the urge to help someone in need. no one, although some may claim to, popped out their moms compiling kernels. any who, to each his/her own. =]

[Blindraven]

irc & forums or any other type of support "area" generally has an ignore feature. i know i use this alot on efnet. regardless if you're in a channel which is likely to get defaulted by new users as a "support" channel, just because the user joins and asks an ignorant question in your opinion does not mean it deserves an ignorant answer. simply do not reply, ignore them if their inferior knowlegde of linux annoys you or better yet, send them to an appropriate channel/site if you feel the urge to help someone in need. no one, although some may claim to, popped out their moms compiling kernels. any who, to each his/her own. =]

Well said .
:KS:KS

[xpod]

That view would would be truly annoying if the user who is expected to use the google search engine (or other search engines) knows something about what he's asking about. I'll assume you understand the phrase RIRA (rubbish in rubbish out); a new user not only faces the prospect of not knowing the answer to her immediate problem, but also the fact that they have no clue what any of the key words are that could be used to describe the problem. anything a new user could think of searching for would be so generic as to defeat the very idea of searching.

On the other hand, with patience and understanding a human volunteer can fill in all these missing key words which often the new user _will_ go away and do further google searches to understand how it works or if there are similar solutions if the first didn't work. Sometimes new users are just asking advice on what is better or more preferred solution to a particular problem to understand the solution space better.

I think this mentality that another person asking a question must hold the exact same variable scope as yourself is deeply flawed. both as an outlook in a community and a personal

I was`nt going to post in here again, just in case i was mis-quoted again but i just had to agree with you on that doc mo:)

It`s alright searching forums & google etc when you know what it is you need to be looking for in the first place eh.My own first few months on the pc involved googling and asking, regardless of OS ......just to be sure.

EDIT:of course,being new to it all really was my excuse,not too sure about certain other groups of "new" user though....ahem:)

[leo_rockway]

irc & forums or any other type of support "area" generally has an ignore feature.

following your line of thought then you probly think spam is not to be regarded as bad... it can be filtered after all!

[notwen]

following your line of thought then you probly think spam is not to be regarded as bad... it can be filtered after all!

giving your email address to reliable sources that do not give out your information would help out w/ this spam you speak of. =] in any case that i'm unsure of the source requiring said email i simply use a gmail account rather than my personal. =] and to be honest gmail's spam filter is pretty through, it sometimes evens tosses legit email in the spam box. *nod*

[leo_rockway]

giving your email address to reliable sources that do not give out your information would help out w/ this spam you speak of. =] in any case that i'm unsure of the source requiring said email i simply use a gmail account rather than my personal. =] and to be honest gmail's spam filter is pretty through, it sometimes evens tosses legit email in the spam box. *nod*

i use yahoomail and it's filter is awesome... which doesn't deny the fact that spam is still a pain in the ***... and so are n00bz asking 20 stupid questions in 1 minute.

to hide them is not the solution... that would be like regediting them :lolflag:

[DoctorMO]

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!

a) i already read you... all 3 times, thank you very much!
b) i don't know what you can do, i'm not inside your comp. what is your soundcard, distro, version, etc?
c) a shy hello wouldn't hurt either.

what you don't understand is that noobs are always annoying. a noob is not a new user. a noob is a person that lacks netiquette, that lacks common sense and that just happens to be a new lignux user.

Your first duty as a user that abides by the netiquette is to describe the error in netiquette the questioner has made. failure to give at least one chance for the questioner to correct their behaviour is also a breach of netiquette; hopefully someone would point this out to you if you decided to complain and moan instead of being patient.

As for the question being repeated? it tells you something about the user, it's emotive, they are frustrated, upset and are not in the right frame of mind to accept help anyway. the advice is to ask the user to take a break from their computer for 10 minutes, put the kettle on have a nice cup of tea and promise that you'll still be here to guide them through some diagnostics when they get back. fighting their stress and frustration will require far more energy and will ultimately just reward people who moan a lot. Obviously the caveat is that this is only applicable to IRC, chat rooms and IM direct support, forums are different.

I'd also ask you to not use the word 'noob' it's not a word, there are plenty of real English words to describe users; especially in cases where the meaning of noob is not clear or well known (and in your case different from everyone else's definition): "Ignorant and rude users" <- your new phrase.

[leo_rockway]

I'd also ask you to not use the word 'noob' it's not a word, there are plenty of real English words to describe users; especially in cases where the meaning of noob is not clear or well known (and in your case different from everyone else's definition): "Ignorant and rude users" <- your new phrase.

ZOMG YOU CALLED THEM IGNORANT!!! you're going straight to hell... where they all use windows 95b

eeerr... i think im pretty comfortable using the word noob and since i already explained what i meant by it, i'll keep using it... even w/ two big zeroes like this: n00b :-D

i'm not a n00b shrink to tell him to leave their comps for 10 min and get a cuppa... if he cant get his soundcard to work and he's pissed about it, then either wait in line for your answer like everybody else, or get the f**k outta here.

i was a new lignux user too and i did ask stupid questions, and i did get rude comments which i TOTALLY deserved. RTFM is the best advice you could be given, seriously.

[koenn]

RTFM is sometimes the best advice you could be given, seriously

[a12ctic]

I agree strongly with you.

Towards your last point though, I think some people can be wrong at times and sometimes questions do need to be asked. With so many dead and slow projects on the linux scene sometimes a program that someone thinks can do what they want it to the best really doesnt and theres a much newer more updated project.

[forrestcupp]

I just want to say, I agree with what you're saying in the video. And don't let anyone say that stuff doesn't happen in the Ubuntu community, because it does. Just maybe not nearly as much as it does with other distros. There's plenty of MS bashing going on here.

But I say even if people want to try Linux and keep using Windows don't bash them for it; they're trying Linux which is a good thing. A tadpole doesn't change into a frog instantly.

[mike102282]

I just want to say, I agree with what you're saying in the video. And don't let anyone say that stuff doesn't happen in the Ubuntu community, because it does. Just maybe not nearly as much as it does with other distros. There's plenty of MS bashing going on here.

But I say even if people want to try Linux and keep using Windows don't bash them for it; they're trying Linux which is a good thing. A tadpole doesn't change into a frog instantly.

I agree there is way too much MS bashing in the Linux community.

[Blindraven]

I agree strongly with you.

Towards your last point though, I think some people can be wrong at times and sometimes questions do need to be asked. With so many dead and slow projects on the linux scene sometimes a program that someone thinks can do what they want it to the best really doesnt and theres a much newer more updated project.

Thankyou for your response :)


]sometimes a program that someone thinks can do what they want it to the best really doesnt and theres a much newer more updated project

Thats a given exception, though in the video I was referring to an issue I faced ( 5 minutes before I made it) as an example.
I basically asked what pax memory limitations the kernel was imposing under a medium compile setting, I'm not sure many "new" users would ask that kind of thing, it was security related and instead of getting an answer, I was flame-bated by morons saying "Wtf would you want PAX? to secure your pr0n?" Thats the kind of thing I mean :)

[Blindraven]

I just want to say, I agree with what you're saying in the video. And don't let anyone say that stuff doesn't happen in the Ubuntu community, because it does. Just maybe not nearly as much as it does with other distros. There's plenty of MS bashing going on here.

But I say even if people want to try Linux and keep using Windows don't bash them for it; they're trying Linux which is a good thing. A tadpole doesn't change into a frog instantly.

Thankyou for your kind words, the last quote was great
:KS:KS


I agree there is way too much MS bashing in the Linux community.

In all the online games I play, including those that I run large scaled guilds in, as a rule of thumb which I enforce, after every kill/win/loss, nothing is said, ever.
You can stoop to levels and float with the grime or rise above and refuse to acknowledge it.

I just contribute where and if I can.
:)

[leo_rockway]

Thankyou for your response :)
"Wtf would you want PAX? to secure your pr0n?" Thats the kind of thing I mean :)

i call that trolling and in that case i agree w/ you!

[DoctorMO]

ZOMG YOU CALLED THEM IGNORANT!!! you're going straight to hell... where they all use windows 95b

eeerr... i think im pretty comfortable using the word noob and since i already explained what i meant by it, i'll keep using it... even w/ two big zeroes like this: n00b

i'm not a n00b shrink to tell him to leave their comps for 10 min and get a cuppa... if he cant get his soundcard to work and he's pissed about it, then either wait in line for your answer like everybody else, or get the f**k outta here.

i was a new lignux user too and i did ask stupid questions, and i did get rude comments which i TOTALLY deserved. RTFM is the best advice you could be given, seriously.

I'd now ask you to not help support the linux and ubuntu community by answering questions; perhaps removing yourself from the various irc channels new users are likely to go to would help to this end.

I think some people can be far too irrational, cold and brutal. there's no need to be rude to people, even when your enraged by what their doing.


I agree there is way too much MS bashing in the Linux community.

As for Microsoft, I'll criticize Microsoft, it's monopoly position, it's continued immoral business practices and those businesses and users that continue to support their harming of the industry. nothing good can come from such support and I reserve the right to point that out with out being called biased. I'll not comment on their technology, I know nothing about it.

[leo_rockway]

I'd now ask you to not help support the linux and ubuntu community by answering questions... I think some people can be far too irrational.

mmmhhh... yeah... i agree w/ you on the irrational part.

who has two thumbs and will keep posting w/e he wants and answering the questions he feels like answering? (hint... it's me)

I'm gonna ask you to go ahead and stop posting here... but in a very rational and polite way w/ sugar on top. (and then they blame slackwarers of being "elitists")

[g2g591]

yeah elitests can be so harsh and annoying

[leo_rockway]

wth was this dude smokin!? Why would we not help new users?

THX! i was just pointing out that n00bs can be annoying and that i feel sympathy towards some "elitist" slackers. i do help people here and in irc if they ask it in the right way (ie. not being like "this ubunto thing is **** i have no wifi... vista rulez!").

[forrestcupp]

But if you don't want to help someone or answer their questions, it's better to just say nothing than to demean them.

[loudmouthman]

Its usually a small collective of self supporting cliques who are determined to ensure level of community involvement which excludes anyone who wont fit within their own contribution or accreditation particulars.

Blindravens comments were a frustration with dealing with people who can only exclude, demean, defer, block , negate and generally diminish another persons value , because they dont fit into the "accepted criteria" of their little group.

I have to hope that we can get more people like Blindraven who will stick around and hang about and eventually we have enough of a crowd who can stand up to what is innately quite a bullying impermanent.


Blindraven I appreciate and encourage your honesty if for nothing more than the fact that more users flooding the channels and the forums with questions that others find annoying is nothing more than an indicator that Ubuntu is gaining more and more and more new and inexperienced users everyday.

With enough new users on board they will soon help each other out, of course that means those few who enjoyed the "special knowlegde" privileges will be few and far between among the mass of those who now also have the "special knowlegde" and the appreciation of how to share it openly and in a Ubuntu way .

[walkerk]

Good points. I agree with you. I've used Linux for years and I always get a bad taste in my mouth when I see 'elitests' try to bash new Linux users. How are these so called 'elitests' helping the development of Linux?

Most of these people still live at home with their parents.. if that makes you feel better.. :/

Ah well. I say help everyone that you can transition into Linux smoothly and you've done your part.

[Blindraven]

Good points. I agree with you. I've used Linux for years and I always get a bad taste in my mouth when I see 'elitests' try to bash new Linux users. How are these so called 'elitests' helping the development of Linux?

Most of these people still live at home with their parents.. if that makes you feel better.. :/

Ah well. I say help everyone that your can transition into Linux smoothly and you've done your part.

Exactly, and it always makes me feel good, personally, when I'm in irssi helping out some guys with trivial stuff like xconfig or some such and how happy it makes them when they get it going.

:KS:KS

[Blindraven]

I

I have to hope that we can get more people like Blindraven who will stick around and hang about and eventually we have enough of a crowd who can stand up to what is innately quite a bullying impermanent.


Blindraven I appreciate and encourage your honesty if for nothing more than the fact that more users flooding the channels and the forums with questions that others find annoying is nothing more than an indicator that Ubuntu is gaining more and more and more new and inexperienced users everyday.

.

:shock:

Thankyou very much :)
As for the sticking around part, I'm not going anywhere.

As it stands I'm working on kernel security and building the tools I need to further contribute not only to the community but to further my own skill-set in the long run.

This video is getting overwhelming feedback, and it was so badly done *laugh*.

1 in 40 people has disapproved, I was expecting to be flamed.
I'm still not sure what to say
:KS:KS

[walkerk]

:shock:

Thankyou very much :)
As for the sticking around part, I'm not going anywhere.

As it stands I'm working on kernel security and building the tools I need to further contribute not only to the community but to further my own skill-set in the long run.

This video is getting overwhelming feedback, and it was so badly done *laugh*.

1 in 40 people has disapproved, I was expecting to be flamed.
I'm still not sure what to say
:KS:KS

LOL.. I'm not a Youtuber.. you can approve of a clip? Here I go :)

[Blindraven]

Haha go for it mate *grins*

[jrusso2]

This has been going on for a long time. When I first started using Linux 11 years ago I started with Slackware but I moved to Redhat due to the difficulty in using slackware as a regular user.

During this time it was popular to Bash Redhat as being for noobs. Then it was Mandrake when that came out and then next it was Corel Linux.

Those who think they are l33t always have to down those they feel are beneath them in order to make themselves feel superior.

[distroman]

I think you should threat people with respect newcomers or not I am not sure you should encourage people to by default ignore faq's, the opportunity to learn how to learn for them self and/or support senseless moaning in general it's just as wrong as bashing.

[Blindraven]

I think you should threat people with respect newcomers or not I am not sure you should encourage people to by default ignore faq's, the opportunity to learn how to learn for them self and/or support senseless moaning in general it's just as wrong as bashing.

:KS:KS

[DoctorMO]

Not all distros are like that. They are happy if new users who come along are willing to pull their weight and learn as they go. They are happy if you show willing and read the docs; but when you turn around and say "You enticed me here, now make me welcome.", they say "No, Ubuntu enticed you here. Go bother them!"

This is the problem. Ubuntu is inviting a whole bunch of noobs in, and the rest of the Linux community is expected to cope with them.

Even in the Ubuntu community we don't stand for baiting and blaming. If a user comes into this forum or the irc channel with that kind of attitude they will be kindly reminded to correct it. If all your saying is that other distro's don't have people with enough human communication skills to deal with real people then you not really bashing ubuntu are you, just yourselves for being incompetent.

It's better to be polite and witty than belligerent and arrogant.

[Blindraven]

Even in the Ubuntu community we don't stand for baiting and blaming. If a user comes into this forum or the irc channel with that kind of attitude they will be kindly reminded to correct it. If all your saying is that other distro's don't have people with enough human communication skills to deal with real people then you not really bashing ubuntu are you, just yourselves for being incompetent.

It's better to be polite and witty than belligerent and arrogant.

Precisely :)
:KS:KS:KS:KS:KS

[Blindraven]

You language is bad.

He has just posted something which was previously jailed, He has broken the CoC two times in a row now, I'm not sure replying to him is worth the effort, this thread has had great discussion and I'm not sure feeding a trolls fuel will bring it anything more.

He's been reported again, lets just let the ops do their jobs and kick back and enjoy the forums!!
:)

[saulgoode]

I basically asked what pax memory limitations the kernel was imposing under a medium compile setting, I'm not sure many "new" users would ask that kind of thing, it was security related and instead of getting an answer, I was flame-bated by morons saying "Wtf would you want PAX? to secure your pr0n?" Thats the kind of thing I mean :)

Sounds like the respondent made a witty, sarcastic comment; hardly justification for getting annoyed, let alone all the histrionic melodrama.

[Blindraven]

Sounds like the respondent made a witty, sarcastic comment; hardly justification for getting annoyed, let alone all the histrionic melodrama.

You are correct, however, do not assume that has anything to do with the movie :)

[vwbeamer]

I'm not a troll,not meaning to be one anyway. Just that if you are going to represent Linux, i think it would be nice not to use the F bomb every other word, that is all.

In the USA, it is very offensive to some. i know some places, it does not matter, and the whole world does not revolve around the US. But some of those donors you talk about live here. Including me! i have donated money and have burned and distributed disc at my own expense.

Because you do not agree with me, I'm labeled a troll.

I understand and agree with your message, it was delivered in an unprofessional manor.

What if my small 7 yr old girl was in the room when I started playing your video, think her Mom would have appreciated that?

What if I had opened it at work?

If you going to cuss, you should have least gave warning





He has just posted something which was previously jailed, He has broken the CoC two times in a row now, I'm not sure replying to him is worth the effort, this thread has had great discussion and I'm not sure feeding a trolls fuel will bring it anything more.

He's been reported again, lets just let the ops do their jobs and kick back and enjoy the forums!!
:)

[vwbeamer]

And i have only broken the CoC once.:)

Let's be friends, and not flsme each other, we are on the same side.

We agree about the message, my problem was the bad language.

If we really want to grow Ubuntu, then we will not get offended when someone makes a suggestion.

[Blindraven]

Its a marvelous day outside :)

[vwbeamer]

Yes, on that we agree.

[darksidedude]

thats the best thing I've heard in a long time

great rant, the thing that keeps people away, is

#1 FUD from M$
#2 the KDE vs gnome bulls***
#3 lack of propritary suport

my idea ( id donate for this) make an ubuntu commercial! and have it on public accesss or something:popcorn:

[bob_c_b]

You do realize that threads like this make the Ubuntu community appear as arrogant newbs who don't respect the greater Linux community at large. You haven't forgotten that Ubuntu is just a downstream distro of Debian, and no matter how much good work Canonical does they are (and we are) the beneficiaries of those volunteers who tire of being asked the same question every day?

Just checking, an awful lot of patting ourselves on the back going on in this thread. The over-reliance on Automatix, the drop in quality documentation since Dapper and the inclusion of proprietary software in future versions has caused some early Ubuntu supporters to question our loyalty. That doesn't make me elitist, but it does make you arrogant if that is how you label anyone who criticizes this distro.

In the rush to be all inclusive the Ubuntu community has lowered it's standards. This is not the friendly but technically savvy forum it was early on. The place where best practices were explained and emphasized, not white washed with work arounds. Just because something is easier doesn't always mean it's better. Ubuntu doesn't need to dumb down Linux, just continue the original mission of making good software more accessible.

[leo_rockway]

The over-reliance on Automatix

"ubotu: Automatix is a script that tries to install some software, and often fails and breaks systems. We don't provide support for it, and we strongly discourage its use. Problems caused by Automatix are often hard to track and solve, and it might sometimes be easier to !install a fresh copy of Ubuntu."

Sorry... i had to do it :-P

yeah... when i read people are using easyubuntu, automatix and envy i shiver... it's not like they need to compile stuff (god forbid!), they only need to install restricted manager and some propietary codecs. mmmhhh... maybe you need to be 1337 to do all that, right?

i agree ubuntu is the perfect entrance door to linux, but that doesn't mean they have to lower the standards of linux users to vista's "cancel or allow" level.

i said it before and i say it again: linux is not for everybody (and by that i don't mean it is only for 1337 people).

[Blindraven]

thats the best thing I've heard in a long time

great rant, the thing that keeps people away, is

#1 FUD from M$
#2 the KDE vs gnome bulls***
#3 lack of propritary suport

my idea ( id donate for this) make an ubuntu commercial! and have it on public accesss or something:popcorn:

Haha cheers mate :)

I thought this thread had drifted off in to the nether.

[vexorian]

I didn't start as a newbie! The first thing I did when I tried Linux for the first time was to fix a problem with the kernel! Linus Torvalds even sent me a gratification email. Serisly!

[leo_rockway]

I didn't start as a newbie! The first thing I did when I tried Linux for the first time was to fix a problem with the kernel! Linus Torvalds even sent me a gratification email. Serisly!

get outta here you filthy leet scum, we don't like those like you over here! we are never going to recompile our kernels, they are fine just how they are!

now, in all seriousness... if the LT man sent you a gratification email then you have my gratitude too for making the linux kernel better :-D

[K.Mandla]

Closed for now. This can be reopened if there is a valid point of discussion to be made.

[Blindraven]

Closed for now. This can be reopened if there is a valid point of discussion to be made.

Thankyou very much for getting everything under control!
:KS:KS

We now return to your normal schedule!

[K.Mandla]

I have reopened the thread at the request of the OPer, with the less acceptable posts removed to the jail.

Keep the discussion on-topic and civil, or the thread will be locked again. Thank you.

[Chilli Bob]

Nice video, I agree entirely.

[Blindraven]

Nice video, I agree entirely.

I'm glad you liked the video Chilli-bob.
:)

[DoctorMO]

In the rush to be all inclusive the Ubuntu community has lowered it's standards. This is not the friendly but technically savvy forum it was early on. The place where best practices were explained and emphasized, not white washed with work arounds. Just because something is easier doesn't always mean it's better. Ubuntu doesn't need to dumb down Linux, just continue the original mission of making good software more accessible.

I agree with you point that Ubuntu should stay "on message" that is, as developers and community admins we need to make sure tools are accessible, powerful and complete.

No one should be complaining about valid and constructive criticism against ubuntu; I know I have plenty to make, but a lot of my issues are being dealt with; I also know where to complain (i.e not here) if my blackberry doesn't work I join the barry dev list; if syncing is the more ridiculous architecture ever to issue forth I try and help opensync.

Hopefully Debian will pay it's respect to all those developers and projects that make the damn thing work at all; otherwise ubuntu will end up just respecting debian and not the actual projects that make debian work and that isn't as good a way of supporting upstream.

[WishingWell]

I couldn't help myself, I had to make a video about it, I'm not even sure why.

you may/may not agree with points thereon, but you may find it interesting regardless :)

If you do agree, in some way, feedback would be great :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fRiMvzhAZc :razz:

So you proved you can be as ridiculous and ignorant as the Win trolls?

Good for you i guess.

This community needs a lot less of you and a lot more of people who don't really care about Ubuntu being better than windows but about Ubuntu being the best it can be regardless of windows.

[bob_c_b]

a lot more of people who don't really care about Ubuntu being better than windows but about Ubuntu being the best it can be regardless of windows.

Well said, let us not forget that a distro is judged by it's community as well as it's content/stability/packages.

[heimo]

Hopefully Debian will pay it's respect to all those developers and projects that make the damn thing work at all; otherwise ubuntu will end up just respecting debian and not the actual projects that make debian work and that isn't as good a way of supporting upstream.

Very well said. I've given thought on this, as I very well understand that Ubuntu gets a lot from Debian, but then Debian itself - or any other distribution - is a product of very large and often scattered, loosely coupled, network of developers and their countless hours of programming. And then there's also another dimension: time. Development of many projects has taken place on a long, long term. Large distribution like Debian, is beyond what I can comprehend. There's SO many people that won't get much credit for their work, and may even sometimes feel that wrong people get credit for what they do. But everyone has their role in FLOSS community. It's team work and incredible ecosystem, which in whole gets less credit than deserves.

[Blindraven]

This community needs a lot less of you and a lot more of people who don't really care about Ubuntu being better than windows but about Ubuntu being the best it can be regardless of windows.

Huh?
Alot less of the people that sit in irc helping people, writing tutorials and marketing/promoting Ubuntu and Linux in their local areas with nothing but passion for reward?
People that sit there constantly thinking up new ways to help new users to the community and providing their skype details to new users for help at anytime they are not busy otherwise?
People creating new ways for conflict and support resolutions and ideas that even spend money on video hardware so they can write media tutorials?

Oh ok, because apparently the 7 pages before you disagrees, go figure.
Thanks for your opinion, but I think I'll chose to ignore it.

[bob_c_b]

Way to completely ignore what he was saying Blindraven, no matter how many of those other contributions you make, that whining video comes off as divisive and insulting to long time Linux community members. It may not be reasonable, but that will overshadow every other contribution you make in some peoples eyes.

I'll say it again, a distro is judged not only by the packages included, the philosophy behind the decisions or the innovations it provides; a distro is also heavily judged by it's community. Too many post on these boards come across as arrogant and disrespectful of the history of Linux development and the efforts of the Free Software Foundation. Too many post think that just being able to easily do something is more important than doing it right. Too many post attempt to pit Ubuntu against other major distros as it we are locked in a OS steel cage deathmatch and that one distro must win. With single digit marketshare on the desktop we must stand behind the idea that any Linux is good Linux, and Ubuntu and it's community on occasion must toe the line, because we are the newb distro and we don't properly police and educate our users all the time.

Ubuntu is nothing without the greater Linux community; it would not exist without the hard work and massive (personal and professional) resources that were put forth by some of those elitist distros you scoff at. How many kernel hackers and bug hunters does RedHat keep on the payroll so they don't have to get day jobs? How many members of the Debian community refuse any payment because they see their distro as the ultimate reward of the hacker gift culture? Less than a year ago Suse would have gotten some props in this paragraph as well, but time marches on and distros must live with their political decisions maybe even more so than technical decisions.

I might point to another distro that was historically the "newb" friendly choice, Mandrake. Mandrake attracted new users with it's comparative ease of use, friendly community (mandrakeusers.org) and eventually attracted a series of financial backers who put a lot of money into it. And due to some bad technical and business decisions it has a fraction of it's former users. Linux marches on regardless of what distro is the flavor of the week, don't forget that.

[koenn]

...
Good to see there are also people here who can put things in perspective.

[Blindraven]

Way to completely ignore what he was saying Blindraven,

Wait a second, who was he talking to? me or you?
I don't understand, why do you care how I reply to someone else?
If someone choses to be rude to me I'll ignore them, its really that easy, and I'm sorry this makes you disgruntled and prompts you in to writing massive amount of techobable about, well, nothing at all.


no matter how many of those other contributions you make, that whining video comes off as divisive and insulting to long time Linux community members. It may not be reasonable, but that will overshadow every other contribution you make in some peoples eyes.

You are the only person to have said that the entire time, perhaps you thought it would be fitting to jump on a bandwagon of negativity considering you have already expressed how much it annoyed you that so many people liked my video's, its quite clear what you want, and, like your trolling pal, I think I'll chose it ignore it after this thread.


I'll say it again
Ye, I'll ignore it again. Your preaching about stuff that has nothing to do with anything, its almost like you find threads that you can can try and rant at people in to gain credibility


a distro is judged not only by the packages included,but bla bla bla bla rant rant rant rant rant

Are we done yet?


Ubuntu is nothing without the greater Linux community; bla bla bla bla bla bla rant rant rant

Clearly not.
By the way, Ubuntu is everything without Slackware, without Debian and without Gentoo!!
Do you want to know why?
because Ubuntu is Linux.
So so no matter what fork it may have "chose" to share its path with,
Always remember,. it was a choice. that the crew ultimately funded by shuttleworth took, and, further to that, Why don't we just say Debian is a rip off of "Linux"? it makes no sense, but in the flavor of your argument, it does.



I might point to another distro that was historically the "newb" friendly choice, Mandrake. Mandrake attracted new users with it's comparative ease of use, friendly community (mandrakeusers.org) and eventually attracted a series of financial backers who put a lot of money into it. And due to some bad technical and business decisions it has a fraction of it's former users. Linux marches on regardless of what distro is the flavor of the week, don't forget that.

Why do you tell me this stuff?
I know all of it, its all trivial pseudo-historic crap, and common sense, furthermore, none of it has anything to do with my post, anything to do with my video, and anything to do with any assembly of creditability.

I've had a great time watching pages and pages of people reply positively, and I've had a great time debating in email about various aspects of my work and how I can improve them. What I refuse to do, however, is pay attention to elitist try-hards who babble on about anything and everything to fortify their non-existent points, which, might I add, are all extremely trivial.

I use Slackware, I have done for 9 years years, but nothing beats Ubuntu for Desktop use to me.

I'm sorry you seem to think Ubuntu owes itself to everyone else :rolleyes:

[bob_c_b]

Thanks for proving my point):P

[Blindraven]

Thanks for proving my point):P

No worries, you have yourself an excellent day :popcorn:

[waldorsockbat]

HERE HERE.... It is about time someone stood up for the noob's. Yes I am a noob and it really aggravates me when I don't get the answer I need because I didn't ask it in the particular way a particular person thinks I should ask. I am sorry I am a noob,if I knew the proper net etiquette to use in the forum then I would not be a noob now would I? Hence I would not be asking a "noob question" would I?



Sorry for the rant, Just had to get that off my chest.

Looking forward to the next video!

[Blindraven]

HERE HERE.... It is about time someone stood up for the noob's. Yes I am a noob and it really aggravates me when I don't get the answer I need because I didn't ask it in the particular way a particular person thinks I should ask. I am sorry I am a noob,if I knew the proper net etiquette to use in the forum then I would not be a noob now would I? Hence I would not be asking a "noob question" would I?



Sorry for the rant, Just had to get that off my chest.

Looking forward to the next video!

Hehe thankyou good sir :)
Looking forward to making it ;)

[4KvRMU7Nnv]

don't know about anyone else...but linux is linux. There's no distinction there. Hell, if we are using the same kernel we may as well be the same. I just happen to like the preconfigured and easy to use settings that come with ubuntu the best! thats all there is to it!

[WishingWell]

Huh?
Alot less of the people that sit in irc helping people, writing tutorials and marketing/promoting Ubuntu and Linux in their local areas with nothing but passion for reward?
People that sit there constantly thinking up new ways to help new users to the community and providing their skype details to new users for help at anytime they are not busy otherwise?
People creating new ways for conflict and support resolutions and ideas that even spend money on video hardware so they can write media tutorials?

Oh ok, because apparently the 7 pages before you disagrees, go figure.
Thanks for your opinion, but I think I'll chose to ignore it.

I wasn't even a member until the 7'th page you twit, you want me to go back and answer every post?

One thing that annoys me with this forum is that everything is always measured against Windows, as if Windows was an infallible icon of stability and reliability or as if it even matters how *nix compares to it, in short, it doesn't MATTER! Ubuntu and other distros are so unlike it that it's futile to discuss the good vs bad parts of two so different distros.

And all you have written above is my point, but not one of the devs are doing it to spite windows, so forget windows, you're in *nix land now, son.

K?

[WishingWell]

Way to completely ignore what he was saying Blindraven, no matter how many of those other contributions you make, that whining video comes off as divisive and insulting to long time Linux community members. It may not be reasonable, but that will overshadow every other contribution you make in some peoples eyes.

I'll say it again, a distro is judged not only by the packages included, the philosophy behind the decisions or the innovations it provides; a distro is also heavily judged by it's community. Too many post on these boards come across as arrogant and disrespectful of the history of Linux development and the efforts of the Free Software Foundation. Too many post think that just being able to easily do something is more important than doing it right. Too many post attempt to pit Ubuntu against other major distros as it we are locked in a OS steel cage deathmatch and that one distro must win. With single digit marketshare on the desktop we must stand behind the idea that any Linux is good Linux, and Ubuntu and it's community on occasion must toe the line, because we are the newb distro and we don't properly police and educate our users all the time.

Ubuntu is nothing without the greater Linux community; it would not exist without the hard work and massive (personal and professional) resources that were put forth by some of those elitist distros you scoff at. How many kernel hackers and bug hunters does RedHat keep on the payroll so they don't have to get day jobs? How many members of the Debian community refuse any payment because they see their distro as the ultimate reward of the hacker gift culture? Less than a year ago Suse would have gotten some props in this paragraph as well, but time marches on and distros must live with their political decisions maybe even more so than technical decisions.

I might point to another distro that was historically the "newb" friendly choice, Mandrake. Mandrake attracted new users with it's comparative ease of use, friendly community (mandrakeusers.org) and eventually attracted a series of financial backers who put a lot of money into it. And due to some bad technical and business decisions it has a fraction of it's former users. Linux marches on regardless of what distro is the flavor of the week, don't forget that.

For post of the year, the above post is my nomination, well written and to the point while not mincing words and still staying on topic at all times.

Excellent!

[Blindraven]

don't know about anyone else...but linux is linux. There's no distinction there. Hell, if we are using the same kernel we may as well be the same. I just happen to like the preconfigured and easy to use settings that come with ubuntu the best! thats all there is to it!

QFT
:KS:KS

[KiwiNZ]

Despite warnings by other staff the conduct in this thread is contrary to the COC .

I am closing it now