Cold War 2.

[vega44]

im going to Australia........ this is real as it gets! :wink:

" China was speaking to the public and media about taking over Taiwan within the next 2 yrs. They said if the USA gets involved a nuclear attack on all its major cities will be bombarded with nuclear missiles.

According to the US Gov't policies, the USA has a treaty to assist witht he protection of Taiwan in the matter of any rogue gov't weho may invade that particular country. This being one of them. And now the news on the weather....."

[oddabe19]

A. It was a general that said that
B. The official stance of the Chinese Gov't is (informally) "He's out of his mind"... whether or not that's true is another story (think of old Solviet Union and what they hid, or what they truely thought/did)
C. Australia is beautiful! I'd love to go myself sometime.
D. A nuclear war is improbable and impractical. Cause bothsides knows that they're screwed either way.
i.e. China launches nuclear bomb, US launches back, Russia helps US (as ally) same with Pakistan. India may help US or China, Briton helps US, Cuba helps China.
Either way both sides loose, both governments know this, so they won't launch.

E. Why are you going to australia?
F. Have fun!
G. China won't take over Taiwan, there'd be too much international backlash. Even if they do, The US would look for a peaceful solution first (this IS true, we don't just run into countries and destroy them, we look for alternatives first, DO NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT IRAQ, we went to the UN 3 or 4 times before we did anything).

[Kvark]

Calm down. That was one Chinese general expressing his own personal view. China is a large and stable nation. It will probably be the most powerful economy in the world within about a decade. So there is no need to worry about them acting like a desperate small rogue nation doing anything stupid.



The US would look for a peaceful solution first (this IS true, we don't just run into countries and destroy them, we look for alternatives first, DO NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT IRAQ, we went to the UN 3 or 4 times before we did anything).If you look at how many nations USA have conducted military operations against within the last 60 years it is quite clear that USA is one of the most warlike nations around. They didn't make enemies by being peaceful.

[Stormy Eyes]

Calm down. That was one Chinese general expressing his own personal view. China is a large and stable nation. It will probably be the most powerful economy in the world within about a decade. So there is no need to worry about them acting like a desperate small rogue nation doing anything stupid.

Given their skewed sex ratios, maybe in a few years they'll invade the Middle East and give the militant Muslims something to really cry about by taking their women. I'm willing to bet that even life in Red China is better for women than life under Islamic law.

[TravisNewman]

"DO NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT IRAQ"

OK. Well, why not? We went to the UN and they told us what we should have done and we did what we wanted to anyway, so why go to the UN at all? You can't say "We're always peaceful first" and then say "You can't say anything about when we weren't peaceful."

Kvark makes a good point.

Speaking of peaceful, lets keep this thread peaceful. It's definitely "at-risk"

[carlc]

China is just posturing. However, they are definitely a force to be reckoned with. I would rather fight with them than against them.

[carlc]

Calm down. That was one Chinese general expressing his own personal view. China is a large and stable nation. It will probably be the most powerful economy in the world within about a decade. So there is no need to worry about them acting like a desperate small rogue nation doing anything stupid.


If you look at how many nations USA have conducted military operations against within the last 60 years it is quite clear that USA is one of the most warlike nations around. They didn't make enemies by being peaceful.

The U.S. is more of a big brother who helps out another nations, especially ones where there is a financial interest!

[poofyhairguy]

This is about as credible as the U.S. general who said that the war in Iraq was about religion (everyone knows that its about Oil- aka making sure the supply is stable. The whole Islam vs. Christianity thing is for morons on both sides who can't grok what the real reasons are; their support is unfortunately needed)

China will NEVER start a nuclear war. They have everything to lose. As long as Wal-Mart and its friends keep sending jobs to China by obsessing over price, it makes it so that they will definitely have the dominant economy in a few years (like 30 or 50). Then just like the U.S. they can use economic war to get whatever they want. Margaret Thatcher was correct- nuclear weapons make regular war obsolete. When all the countries have them it will all be economic wars.

The problem is that the old guard (aka war hawks) don't want to deal with that reality. They made the nuclear bed...and now they will have to sleep in it.

Eventually China WILL want Taiwan. But they won't go for it until they own most of the U.S.'s deficit (if Republicans keep in power that will be sooner rather than later...actually democrats are just as bad...we are screwed on that issue) and they have a bigger economy. Then we will be willing to give the Chinese ANYTHING to keep them from hurting us economically.

People that think we will every have a traditional war with China (or worse a nuclear war) don't understand **** about world politics. These are the same people that vote for George Bush because he is "against gay marriage" despite the fact that his party killed the amendment that would have stopped it in the congress they control (aka the only way to stop gay marriage) or vote for Democratic senators just because they are "pro-choice" despite the fact that only a new amendment would really change that status quo.

Mmmmmm...politics.....

[KiwiNZ]

The World has enough conflict, we dont have to invent more.

All this was from a loopy General , all Generals and Admirals are loopy. Hell an American General wanted to throw a Naval blockade around New Zealand and take military action against us when we went Nuclear free and band Nuclear powered or armed Warships from entering our waters.

[poofyhairguy]

All this was from a loopy General , all Generals and Admirals are loopy. Hell an American General wanted to throw a Naval blockade around New Zealand and take military action against us when we went Nuclear free and band Nuclear powered or armed Warships from entering our waters.

Thats a sad kind of funny.

[KiwiNZ]

Thats a sad kind of funny.

It was considering our Armed forces at the time consisted of....

Navy

4 Frigates (30 years old)
1 Supply ship

Airforce

24 Skyhawk Fighters
20 Strikemaster Trainers
5 Hercules Transport
4 Arion patrol craft
1 Vc 10

Army

1 Infantry Battalion
A few APC, no tanks , a few feild guns and 6 Iraquios Helicopters.


We really must have been either a huge threat or we were an enormous loss to the Western defence plans.

[dataw0lf]

This is about as credible as the U.S. general who said that the war in Iraq was about religion (everyone knows that its about Oil- aka making sure the supply is stable. The whole Islam vs. Christianity thing is for morons on both sides who can't grok what the real reasons are; their support is unfortunately needed)


Going to have to call you on this one, poof. There is no _one_ reason we invaded Iraq, excepting perhaps our (the U.S.'s) imperial ambition: a 'unipolar world in which the United States has no peer competitor'.

The whole Islam versus Christianity thing is not 'just for morons'. We're not just attempting an invasion of a country; we're attempting a subtle cultural invasion. This, of course, is largely about religion.

As a former US Army cavalry scout and Attack Pathfinder (e.g., badass ;) ), who participated in both the Iraqi and Afghani conflicts, I was and am appalled at our country's citizens who somehow think that we're doing the right thing. The most surprising thing, of course, is their pompous assumption that the U.S. knows what's "right" for other countries.

It's a shame that our country is being torn apart by politicians and their greed infested corporate owners.

When will it stop? Most likely never.

[az]

The U.S. is more of a big brother who helps out another nations, especially ones where there is a financial interest!


Big brother who helps out? Ah! The propaganda is working!

Ever listen to the news that is broadcast from outside of the US? The news the US media reports is somewhat distorted with respect to US foreign policy.

[sonny]

I don't think we have to worry about anything; at least in what is left of the year and the next one, because both sides are busy in other things. US is "building" a "democracy" in Irak so they start pumping the oil, they're also building the oil-duct in the middle east (the one that cross Afganistan), and worry about making their president less stupid for the public so the party can win the next elections. On the other hand China is worry with the economic thing, right now they have to show a stable economic enviroment for the investors, companies and rich people, they are building roads, bridges, railways, ports and airports (for those who doesn't know China is building one airport each year) as fast as they can so the companies won't meet with infrastructure problems, AND they are busy trying to hold down their people; by that I mean, making them NOT to think about democracy, civil rights, unions, elections, republic, and things like that while they still have the strength to work as hard as they can for the less money they can have. For all those reasons neither country will go at war in the short term, perhaps they will but right now Taiwan is not an important topic for China.

[Stormy Eyes]

When will it stop? Most likely never.

I predict a coup d'etat in the next twenty years. The Army would be justified; their oaths as soldiers involve protecting the Constitution, not the politicians.

[poofyhairguy]

Going to have to call you on this one, poof. There is no _one_ reason we invaded Iraq, excepting perhaps our (the U.S.'s) imperial ambition: a 'unipolar world in which the United States has no peer competitor'.

True. Saying there is only one cause to ANY war makes me sound ignorant. Its lots of things: the fact that Saddam wanted to base oil prices on the euro (talk about killing the value of the dollar), the fact that he was our ally in the past and that embarrased us, the fact that the pentigon war hawks are still made that Bush 1 actually listened to the U.N. and didn't kick him out, the fact that we wanted to scare the **** out of Iran, the fact that 9/11 only gave them a small window to get into other unrelated conflicts, the fact that Saddam had Weapons of Mass Destruction. Ok I threw that last one in there to see if you were paying attention- we all know that was ********.

But, if there had to be a primary cause it is oil. We are too dependent on oil in the U.S. having such a big supply of it in enemy hands (or worse than that- unstable hands) lit the original fuse. If Saudi Arabia wasn't friendly to the U.S., it would have been the 51st state already for the same reasons.



The whole Islam versus Christianity thing is not 'just for morons'. We're not just attempting an invasion of a country; we're attempting a subtle cultural invasion. This, of course, is largely about religion.

No its not. The biggest differences are economic differences. The hottest hate is jealousy.

One of my best friends here in the states is a Muslim. He doesn't have any problem with American culture. He buys what he wants, he goes to baseball games, he sits in his apartment every night doing the same thing most of the time that most Americans do. If I didn't tell you his religion, you wouldn't have said "he is a muslim." At one point Capitalism was in conflict with Christianity (the first Christians were forbidden to endulge in material conforts and/or lend money) but in the end money and greed is what drives the world, not religion. If the Middle East wasn't so damn poor, the conflict would be minimal.

the religion thing is for people that can't grok the economic and political differences. Sure it matters a little, sure it fans the flame a little, but that difference is insignificant compared to economic differences.



As a former US Army cavalry scout and Attack Pathfinder (e.g., badass ;) ), who participated in both the Iraqi and Afghani conflicts, I was and am appalled at our country's citizens who somehow think that we're doing the right thing. The most surprising thing, of course, is their pompous assumption that the U.S. knows what's "right" for other countries.

Often the U.S. doesn't know whats best for itself. We would stop letting Wal-Mart send all of our manufacturing jobs to China if we did (it would be much better if we sent those jobs to Latin America instead). And you can be certain that the U.S. puts its interest above all others.



It's a shame that our country is being torn apart by politicians and their greed infested corporate owners.

No...whats a shame is that more people worry about stopping gay people from marrying than they care about stopping the obvious corruption in Washington.

Its gotten to the point that when I go to vote, instead of voting what a candidate says he or she will do (because that is lies) I go to www.opensecrets.org and see who gave them the most money for their campaign. Thats who they will really serve.

If I see lawyer's unions (I want to be a lawyer) or oil companies (I DO live in Texas, so its in my economic interest) I usually support them. I see Hollywood (I want to steal their **** forever) or insurance companies I vote the other way. Its sad, but anyone who really cares about politics pretty much has to admits it true.

[Kvark]

The "christianity vs islam" thing is not one of the reasons USA invaded iraq. In general throughout history religion has been used as an excuse for war but it has always been an excuse, not a reason.

Religion is the perfect excuse. If war is religious then it must be holy and righteous, not a crime. Anyone critizing it is a heretic and should be stoned, it is a sin to even think about peace. The enemies are not really human, they are evil tools of the devil so it is good to kill them and you must not show mercy. God is on your side and if you die, he will revard you in heaven, so there is no reason to fear death. Zealots are the perfect soldiers.

So when you have a reason to war, the best way to motivate people into agreeing is by bending whatever religion the people has. But there is always reasons behind why you bend religion into fanaticism. You don't do it just for fun. In this case it is the messy economical and political situation of the arab world which drives some groups desperate enough to train fanatic terrorists.

If USA and friends helped the arab world reach good living standards instead of controlling what they do with the oil. There would still be ordinary muslims but no desperate terrorists.

It is the same with other modern religious conflicts. For example with the catholics and protestants in ireland the real issue is if ireland should be independant or a part of great britain. It is also the same with all historical religious wars. For example the crusades was a clever way to make the nobles fight a common enemy somewhere else instead of eachother at home. There is always some non-religious reasons behind it and then they needed an excuse.

[carlc]

Big brother who helps out? Ah! The propaganda is working!

Ever listen to the news that is broadcast from outside of the US? The news the US media reports is somewhat distorted with respect to US foreign policy.

I'm not naive . I realize that most “news” reporting has a political slant. I meant to emphasize financial interest more than the “big brother” thing which was my slant. People give many reasons for the actions of the U.S. but it all boils down to money and occasionally national security.

[az]

"If USA and friends helped the arab world reach good living standards instead of controlling what they do with the oil. There would still be ordinary muslims but no desperate terrorists."

Wasn't that Hitler's plan when he invaded Poland?

The germans then were as convinced as you are now that they were the standard to which all others must be compared. Be careful.

Of course, now we call it a whole bunch of bad names and look down on the Nazi regime. How is that any different to the US "rebuilding their society?"

[BWF89]

"If USA and friends helped the arab world reach good living standards instead of controlling what they do with the oil. There would still be ordinary muslims but no desperate terrorists."

Wasn't that Hitler's plan when he invaded Poland?

The germans then were as convinced as you are now that they were the standard to which all others must be compared. Be careful.

Of course, now we call it a whole bunch of bad names and look down on the Nazi regime. How is that any different to the US "rebuilding their society?"
Were only controling the Iraquis if you consiter removing a dictator and building a republic something to be ashamed of.

Back when Saddam was leader of Iraq most of the money he got from oil went streight to him and the Iraqui Republican party. When we leave Iraq the oil money will improve the Iraqui economy and improve their living standerds.

And the Germans were convinced that what they were doing was just because when a dictator (in this case Hitler) takes over he gets rid of every type of media that is critical of him and creates a government run media. In the USA we have many privately owned media sources ABC, CBS, FOX, CNN, local news stations, the list goes on.

[Natja]

Were only controling the Iraquis if you consiter removing a dictator and building a republic something to be ashamed of.

Back when Saddam was leader of Iraq most of the money he got from oil went streight to him and the Iraqui Republican party. When we leave Iraq the oil money will improve the Iraqui economy and improve their living standerds.

Are you sure ? Or will it improve USA's economy ? Who will benefit of the money Iraq get from oil ? Probably not the Iraqui. And now, are Iraqui living better than when Saddam was there ? No. So, WHEN will they live better ? Hum ?


In the USA we have many privately owned media sources ABC, CBS, FOX, CNN, local news stations, the list goes on.

FOX is privately owned, yes. But don't think all you can see on FOX (or CNN, or CBS, ... but FOX is the worst) is true. Did you see "OutFOXed" ? It's... very interesting.

[sonny]

FOX is privately owned, yes. But don't think all you can see on FOX (or CNN, or CBS, ... but FOX is the worst) is true. Did you see "OutFOXed" ? It's... very interesting.
I agree with you... every company can be bought, every CEO can take action for/against any political party. To hear the true about a big news in a country you have to see foreign news, because those are the ones telling the truth, or wait until Micheal Moore does an investigation about it :grin:

[Kvark]

"If USA and friends helped the arab world reach good living standards instead of controlling what they do with the oil. There would still be ordinary muslims but no desperate terrorists."

Wasn't that Hitler's plan when he invaded Poland?

The germans then were as convinced as you are now that they were the standard to which all others must be compared. Be careful.

Of course, now we call it a whole bunch of bad names and look down on the Nazi regime. How is that any different to the US "rebuilding their society?"
With "helping them" I did not mean "invade them". I meant help them instead of trying to control them.

But there is some times where the proper "help" is an invasion. Such as when the government are killing off portions of the population. But that decision should be left to UN.

[BWF89]

With "helping them" I did not mean "invade them". I meant help them instead of trying to control them.

But there is some times where the proper "help" is an invasion. Such as when the government are killing off portions of the population. But that decision should be left to UN.
The UN didn't want to do anything about the Iraq situation because they were making money off of Saddam being in power.

[sonny]

The UN didn't want to do anything about the Iraq situation because they were making money off of Saddam being in power.
I don't think they were making money, because in order to buy the UN, you have to buy at least 6 persons, wich won't go down easy, because they also have to give money to others, that kind of bribes are really expensive, and in MANY times are not affordable by goverments like Irak. The only reason big countries do what they want is because those 6 persons you have to buy are their own.

[gylf]

A couple posts touched on the economic pressures that deter military action by China against Taiwan.

The World is Flat (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0374292884/qid=1122400992/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-5049669-9669714?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) is an interesting book on the topic, if anyone is interested.

And to all those posting in this thread, be sure to have a cup of tea. (http://www.rider.edu/~suler/zenstory/emptycup.html)

[poofyhairguy]

Are you sure ? Or will it improve USA's economy ?

Who knows eiteher way.



Who will benefit of the money Iraq get from oil ? Probably not the Iraqui.

Not all. Just like not all Texans benefit from money pumped from here.



And now, are Iraqui living better than when Saddam was there ? No. So, WHEN will they live better ? Hum ?


In the future, when (like with Turkey or Isreal) the U.S. will be willing to pay some big bucks to keep our created ally.

[az]

With "helping them" I did not mean "invade them". I meant help them instead of trying to control them.

But there is some times where the proper "help" is an invasion. Such as when the government are killing off portions of the population. But that decision should be left to UN.


Regardless, this attitude that it is right to rewrite another culture's way of life is bang on par with the arayan(white supremacy) movement.

[dataw0lf]

In the future, when (like with Turkey or Isreal) the U.S. will be willing to pay some big bucks to keep our created ally.

Or we'll give them weapons and install our <x> favorite dictator and eventually have to invade yet again, putting American lives at risk and murdering Iraqi civilians yet again.

[BWF89]

Regardless, this attitude that it is right to rewrite another culture's way of life is bang on par with the arayan(white supremacy) movement.
Were not rewriting their culture. Were just transforming a country from a brutal dictatorship to a republic. It's not like were sending missionaries over there to convert them to Christianity.

[dataw0lf]

The UN didn't want to do anything about the Iraq situation because they were making money off of Saddam being in power.

And we were benefiting as well. Why? Because Saddam, like him or not, had total control over the country. This included keeping Islamic extremist groups OUT. It should come as a surprise to noone that there were no 9/11 terrorists from Iraq. In fact, the extremist (i.e., terrorist) groups hated Saddam almost as much as they hated us. Now, we've opened the gates for various terrorists groups to flood into Iraq, thus endangering ourselves further.

This is greed, people. We (I'll speak on behalf of U.S. citizens here; I feel I have a right to, since I went to both Afghanistan and Iraq to do _our_ dirty work) have been put in further danger but war mongering leaders who couldn't give two shits about us or our American way of life, excepting when it benefits them monetarily.

When I was in Afghanistan I liked to think that what I was doing was for the greater good. After Iraq, however, I have no illusions about my fate. If there's a Hell, I'm going to it. The best I can do is try to educate people on why we _really_ went into Iraq, and why it _wasn't_ a good idea. The American people need to stop hiding behind their sons and daughters, invoking their names 'patriotically' and take responsiblity for the mass bloodshed _they've_ inflicted on numerous groups around the world.

[poofyhairguy]

Or we'll give them weapons and install our <x> favorite dictator and eventually have to invade yet again, putting American lives at risk and murdering Iraqi civilians yet again.

True...we have experiance in both directions. I can hope one way, but there is more evidence for the other. My dream is with the first Cold War gone the U.S. will be better about democracies (before, they MIGHT have gone communist so we toppled a few). But its a new world and it could go ither way.

Thanks for keeping me on my toes datawolf.

[dataw0lf]

Were not rewriting their culture. Were just transforming a country from a brutal dictatorship to a republic. It's not like were sending missionaries over there to convert them to Christianity.

Wrong. We're forcing our Western culture upon another culture. This is wrong. Whether or not you want to believe it's about religion (and it lies at the root of both cultures, whether you admit it or not).

Anyways, who decided democracy was the best? Why don't we tend to our poor and hungry before we go out 'policing' (murdering) other countries up? Iraq, whatever it might've been, was STABLE under Saddam. We didn't have to worry about 1) Saddam attacking us, we crippled him after we destroyed the weapons we GAVE him prior to Desert Storm, and 2) extremist religious groups, Saddam had them kicked out of his country.
Now we're screwed. We've destabilized and destroyed Iraq. This. Not. Good.

[crispingatiesa]

im going to Australia........ this is real as it gets! :wink:

" China was speaking to the public and media about taking over Taiwan within the next 2 yrs. They said if the USA gets involved a nuclear attack on all its major cities will be bombarded with nuclear missiles.

According to the US Gov't policies, the USA has a treaty to assist witht he protection of Taiwan in the matter of any rogue gov't weho may invade that particular country. This being one of them. And now the news on the weather....."

Dude ... you'll be better off by moving to montana... Australia is 'round the corner of china.

[poofyhairguy]

This is greed, people.

Correct.


We (I'll speak on behalf of U.S. citizens here; I feel I have a right to, since I went to both Afghanistan and Iraq to do _our_ dirty work) have been put in further danger but war mongering leaders who couldn't give two shits about us or our American way of life, excepting when it benefits them monetarily.

And the people who pay for their campaigns.


When I was in Afghanistan I liked to think that what I was doing was for the greater good. After Iraq, however, I have no illusions about my fate. If there's a Hell, I'm going to it. The best I can do is try to educate people on why we _really_ went into Iraq, and why it _wasn't_ a good idea. The American people need to stop hiding behind their sons and daughters, invoking their names 'patriotically' and take responsiblity for the mass bloodshed _they've_ inflicted on numerous groups around the world.

They hide behind the flag because hiding behind ignorance is embarrasing.

Datawolf's on a role. Thats better understanding than many political science graduates I know.

[poofyhairguy]

Anyways, who decided democracy was the best?

Good point. Its harder to convince a bunch of educated people to agree with you (aristocracy) than it is to fool the uneducated masses in some cases. Hmm...



Iraq, whatever it might've been, was STABLE under Saddam. We didn't have to worry about 1) Saddam attacking us, we crippled him after we destroyed the weapons we GAVE him prior to Desert Storm, and 2) extremist religious groups, Saddam had them kicked out of his country.

Saddam was going to switch over to the Euro (aka "oil is ___ euros a barrel), which would have really hurt the dollar. Its not a nice reason, but we knocked him over to ensure our economic dominance. The higher ups care as much about the Iraq people as a chef cares about roaches in the kitchen.



Now we're screwed. We've destabilized and destroyed Iraq. This. Not. Good.

True. One can hope for stability again. But if your military experiance suggests otherwise (hell...two years of instability suggests otherwise) then the future might be bleak.

Of course, the U.S. has helped to build back nations in worse shape (Japan, Germany) so it could go either way.

[Kvark]

Regardless, this attitude that it is right to rewrite another culture's way of life is bang on par with the arayan(white supremacy) movement.
I regret saying anything. All I wanted to point out was that the US should stay the hell out of others' bussiness. And then they'd have less enemies. But guess I somehow formulated it in a 'nazi'-like way.

edit: removed a long rant about my veiw of things. (realized the rant was irrelevant since this is a discussion from an american perspective and my perspective is entirely different.)

[poofyhairguy]

Plus if the country asks for it, send them some money to build up neccessary infrastructure (education, healthcare, water supply, etc). You don't get involved in their way of life. The only control you get in return is proof that they do use the money for the areas the help was intended for.

Sounds good to me.

[BWF89]

Wrong. We're forcing our Western culture upon another culture. This is wrong. Whether or not you want to believe it's about religion (and it lies at the root of both cultures, whether you admit it or not).
Well you can't invade a country with a different culture and not change their current culture. Even if you tried not to. When we went into Japan and changed their leadership from the Emperor to a republic wasn't that changing their culture? And wasn't it a change for the better? The people of Japan were brainwashed into thinking that the Emperor was god so much that if we had decided not to drop the atomic bombs on Hiro and Nago and invaded the island they would have fought to the last man.

Today the people of Japan are free from brainwash and the USA and Japan have good relations.

[dataw0lf]

Well you can't invade a country with a different culture and not change their current culture. Even if you tried not to. When we went into Japan and changed their leadership from the Emperor to a republic wasn't that changing their culture? And wasn't it a change for the better? The people of Japan were brainwashed into thinking that the Emperor was god so much that if we had decided not to drop the atomic bombs on Hiro and Nago and invaded the island they would have fought to the last man.

Today the people of Japan are free from brainwash and the USA and Japan have good relations.

Japanese culture is actually invading OUR culture, but that's an argument for another time. And trust me, I'll win that one too.

Any type of culture assimilation isn't good. You sound like the Borg now. Aren't we brainwashed right now (e.g., suddenly switching targets from Afghan to Iraq, demonizing Islam, believing that our corporate governmental structure has our best future in mind, etc) ?

Besides, wouldn't YOU fight to the last man if the US was invaded? Or would you just give up? Exactly. Bad analogy, no?

What we're doing is taking a cultural extreme (a loosely defined capitalist republic founded by Quakers) and trying to dominate another culture with it (a conservative, extremely sensitive Islamic region with a bad history with democracy and capitalism) . This. Isn't. Good.

If you look closely at your arguments, they don't hold up to scrutiny. Perhaps a change of heart is in order?

If you decide one isn't, I suggest you go to your local recruiter and replace one of my friends who wants out of Iraq. Right now.

[Stormy Eyes]

Besides, wouldn't YOU fight to the last man if the US was invaded? Or would you just give up?

I don't know about the other guy, but I'd take my wife and get the hell out. I'll fight to my last breath for her or for my friends and family, but not for a nation that has forgotten the ideals of its founders.

[dataw0lf]

I don't know about the other guy, but I'd take my wife and get the hell out. I'll fight to my last breath for her or for my friends and family, but not for a nation that has forgotten the ideals of its founders.

Which I find completely understandable, and respect. However, I haven't given up on America quite yet. I'm, unfortunately, very close in doing so, however.

[Stormy Eyes]

Which I find completely understandable, and respect. However, I haven't given up on America quite yet. I'm, unfortunately, very close in doing so, however.

You haven't reached your breaking point yet. Fair enough.

[az]

All I wanted to point out was that the US should stay the hell out of others' bussiness.


I am sorry that I completely misunderstood you and though you were still saying the opposite.


My bad.

[dataw0lf]

You haven't reached your breaking point yet. Fair enough.

Oh, I've reached my breaking point. ;) I just.. love the U.S., and although I know it's exactly the opposite, I feel as if I'll disrespect my fallen comrades (including a good friend, Eric McKinley, who died in Baghdad 5 feet away from me, much love brother <3) by leaving the U.S. and not at least _trying_ to do _something_ to initiate change.

[poofyhairguy]

Japanese culture is actually invading OUR culture, but that's an argument for another time. And trust me, I'll win that one too.

Datawolf is my new hero.



What we're doing is taking a cultural extreme (a loosely defined capitalist republic founded by Quakers) and trying to dominate another culture with it (a conservative, extremely sensitive Islamic region with a bad history with democracy and capitalism) . This. Isn't. Good.


I would argue that cultures compete because that is the nature of the world. Darwinism applies to more than biology (note: I am not calling any culture inferior, I'm just saying competition is life).

[poofyhairguy]

If you decide one isn't, I suggest you go to your local recruiter and replace one of my friends who wants out of Iraq. Right now.

Off topic note: I currently go to the most conservative University in the country. I often come in conflict with those who are 100% in favor of the war with Iraq. A quick way to shut them up is to say "If you believe in it so much, they why aren't you there? Only pussies and dictators expect others to fight for (and die for) what they believe."

Stone silence.

[dataw0lf]

Off topic note: I currently go to the most conservative University in the country. I often come in conflict with those who are 100% in favor of the war with Iraq. A quick way to shut them up is to say "If you believe in it so much, they why aren't you there? Only pussies and dictators expect others to fight for (and die for) what they believe."

Stone silence.

Yeah, it works really, really well when they see your bumper sticker :
BUSH
LLIT
and then say you don't support the troops.
And then you show them your Army tattoo and tell them to shut their ****ing mouth and go over there themselves and talk.

;)

[byen]

so....coming down to it? if china does act!? and does plan the invasion..do you guys really think the United States would dare step into what would be 'a pandoras box?' I am not sure if china would do it..but I was born and raised in India (before I pulled my act together and joined a Univ here in the United states) and looking at the way they do things..they really dont give a damn about what the world thinks! they really do not! if they deem that their cause is justified..they will go ahead with it! As someone said earlier,...if US should decide to act! US would get help from Pakistan, Russia and may be India. China on the other hand seems to have the capability to defend itself..and India.. oh boy, where do i start...after years of British-Invaded rule and after finally getting the wheels turning...this is some pain the country doesnt need! well...as a matter of fact...no country needs!
Hope nothing happens! why do we have to fight like this! god dammit..what will it take?! how many lives and generations more??

[dataw0lf]

Hope nothing happens! why do we have to fight like this! god dammit..what will it take?! how many lives and generations more??

Less greed, more action by younger people. The current generation seems to be comprised of, mostly, lazy asses who don't wont for anything.

[byen]

-nevermind- sorry got an lil emotional.

[poofyhairguy]

-nevermind- sorry got an lil emotional.

Understandable. This **** is way more serious and important than the regular conversation here.

[Kvark]

Less greed, more action by younger people. The current generation seems to be comprised of, mostly, lazy asses who don't wont for anything.
Yep, more action (as in debates, demonstrations and such) from the people is what US needs. It is a great nation and I would love to spend some period of my life there. But some things are horribly wrong and I'm not going anywhere near until you americans get it sorted out.

Foreign politics is not the only issue. For example everyone should be equal in front of the law. The fact that how much money you have has an impact on the outcome of a legal battle makes your justice system look like an embarrasing joke. And not only big issues, many details seem very odd from the outside. Such as a voting system where it is possible to lose the majority vote and still win the election (wtf???). Hope you can do a big spring cleaning of the various issues. A general rewind and review back to the original values of your constitution or something.

[dataw0lf]

A general rewind and review back to the original values of your constitution or something.

Or a violent revolution. Whatever it takes. This country needs to change. Quickly.

[FX]

Only thing I have to say about the Iraq war....

If we went in there because of the way he was treating his people, then why haven't we gone to N. Korea yet? He is just as worse if not worse than Sadam was...... Ah yea they have no oil or really anything else we can exploit.

Granted I was BS'ed when I heard and seen all the news and hearings for why we should go in there. I was ignorant and maybe a little surprised we haven't seen any WMD's yet.

[BWF89]

Only thing I have to say about the Iraq war....

If we went in there because of the way he was treating his people, then why haven't we gone to N. Korea yet? He is just as worse if not worse than Sadam was...... Ah yea they have no oil or really anything else we can exploit.

Granted I was BS'ed when I heard and seen all the news and hearings for why we should go in there. I was ignorant and maybe a little surprised we haven't seen any WMD's yet.
Both US and Russian agencies thought Saddam had WMD's. So we went in expecting to find them and get rid of them. But as it turns out it was just a mistake. Mistakes happen. So since there were no WMD's we just skipped past that part and went on with building a republic in Iraq. What else were we suppost to do? Go in, look for Wmd's, then leave and let the terrorists and islamic extremists take power again?

We would be in almost the same exact situation if we went in there and did find that Saddam had WMD's. We would still be fighting the terrorists and trying to build a republic.

[poofyhairguy]

Both US and Russian agencies thought Saddam had WMD's.

they had good reasons to create that fantasy.

[Kvark]

Both US and Russian agencies thought Saddam had WMD's.
You can't trust either of those sources to be honest. The only somewhat reliable source was UN's weapons inspectors.

[FX]

The U.S., Russia, China, S. Korea, Japan and the rest of the world knows N. Korea has nuclear weapons and have threaten to use them!!!!!

The WMD's was a lame excuse and propoganda B.S. Especially since most if not all the terrorist that flew the planes came from Saudi Arabia.

[byen]

Both US and Russian agencies "thought" no no...LIED that Saddam had WMD's. They were lies buddy...plain lies!

Mistakes happen
and innocent soldiers die!

trying to build a republic
You do not build countries bro.... people, citizens of the country build em!

let the terrorists and islamic extremists take power again?
Does anyone here think that once US does its share of "helping out" ...IRAQ would remain a free, democratic country..no-way... Iraq is a mess that only a revolution can solve! Getting rid of saddam IS definelty the best thing that happened to IRAQ but dont you think the Allied Countries jumped on the boat without a proper plan!And what happened to bin-laden? how about gettin that assw*** and taking care of the Taliban and their sister organizations! Arnt the intelligence reports screaming ..that all these terrorists get trained in Pakistan? Didnt the CIA gather intelligence about terrorist camps in the Afghan-Pakistan border? that is where the terrorists are... but somehow... that never seems to show-up on their agenda!!!
WEED-OUT the scum first! then we might be able to do something and make a difference!
PS-Sorry to pick your post BWF89... it just hit the point which got me writing

[poofyhairguy]

And what happened to bin-laden?

What about him? His CIA trained ass probably died years ago.

[KiwiNZ]

It annoys me the number of people that think the terrorism is a result of the invasion of Iraq.
It isnt . It was there well before.... Lockerbie , the US Army Barracks ... That Cruise Liner... September 11 to name just a few.
Its a problem that is worsening year by year. The invasions of Afganastan and Iraq was an attempt to curb it . The reasons given for the invasion was simply Bush's stupidity and some really bad advise from the spin doctors.

Now I am a seventies hippie , I hate War ( an irony here I have 2 sons in the Army). But dammit enough is enough , this terrorism needs to stop. How do we stop it , If I new the answers to that I wouldnt be here . All I know it is time to make the cost of terrorism on the terrorists and their supporters so high that they stop. It is time to stop the hiprocrasy and talk to the main players in the security council and use the combined resources , all of them , and resolve it .

[Stormy Eyes]

Now I am a seventies hippie , I hate War ( an irony here I have 2 sons in the Army). But dammit enough is enough , this terrorism needs to stop. How do we stop it , If I new the answers to that I wouldnt be here .

I'm no fan of war either. Politicians start them, and then expect ordinary people to fight, kill and die while they sit back and watch the show. If these politicians were real men, they'd be fighting duels, not wars.

Frankly, the civilized world should wean itself off of oil ASAP, and then isolate the Middle East. Let no Muslim into the civilized world, until they themselves learn to be civilized again. It used to be that the Middle East held the light of civilization while Europe crawled out from under the rubble left by Rome's fall. But in the wake of the Ottoman Empire's fall, they themselves have descended into barbarism -- barbarism we in the West tolerate because we "need" the Middle East's oil.

When the people of the Middle East are ready to put aside their idiotic superstitions and rejoin civilization, let's welcome them. But if they prefer religion and stagnation to freedom and progress, then let them have it -- and nothing from us: no notice, no aid, and no mercy if they take another innocent life.

[byen]

It annoys me the number of people that think the terrorism is a result of the invasion of Iraq
Im not sure that is correct... but the point that terrorism has increased due to the invasion of iraq isnt correct either. But Im suprised that all of a sudden they seemed to get some fangs!


Now I am a seventies hippie , I hate War ( an irony here I have 2 sons in the Army). But dammit enough is enough , this terrorism needs to stop. How do we stop it , If I new the answers to that I wouldnt be here . All I know it is time to make the cost of terrorism on the terrorists and their supporters so high that they stop. It is time to stop the hiprocrasy and talk to the main players in the security council and use the combined resources , all of them , and resolve it .
Im a 23 year old graduate student and all I have seen since my teen life is how the middle-east has been plagued by this! I dont know when it would stop...but I hope it does. Ive had enough of this too. Im of Indian origin (not even a muslim) and god do I hate the stares and glares I get from people who probably think Im an arab or that i might be a terrorist.... while all I did was to study hard so that I could get some good education here in the US...though I dont blame them... and it is nowhere close to how much others have suffered due to this .... just feel bad that people now judge just based on looks and region.

[WildTangent]

Or a violent revolution. Whatever it takes. This country needs to change. Quickly.
in a democracy, it is the peoples responsibility to ensure the right people are in power, the right people are the ones that reflect the majority opinion of the population. should you fail in that duty, your other duty is to put the right people in power. should this require immediate radical action, IE a violent reform, than so be it. it is your duty.

-Wild

[WildTangent]

Both US and Russian agencies thought Saddam had WMD's. So we went in expecting to find them and get rid of them. But as it turns out it was just a mistake. Mistakes happen. So since there were no WMD's we just skipped past that part and went on with building a republic in Iraq. What else were we suppost to do? Go in, look for Wmd's, then leave and let the terrorists and islamic extremists take power again?

We would be in almost the same exact situation if we went in there and did find that Saddam had WMD's. We would still be fighting the terrorists and trying to build a republic.
as dataw0lf mentioned, saddam did a good job of keeping the terrorists out. if y'all had just left when you didnt find anything, Iraq would be stable. theres no other argument for this. if it wasnt broke, why did you try to fix it?

-Wild

[carlc]

Terrorists greatly distort and misuse Muslim teachings. However, I think that Muslims are more civilized than the average U.S. citizen. The average person in the U.S. lacks the discipline and mental capacity to keep pace with the character of a Muslim.

In defense of the U.S. as a nation, people are going to criticize the U.S. whether they intervene in international affairs or not. The U.S. as a true super-power is expected to protect smaller nations while at the same time staying out of people's business.

Despite whether or not people support the invasion of Iraq, it was not an isolated event. If Saddam Hussein would have withdrawn from Kuwait on a voluntary basis (or not invaded Kuwait in the first place) he would probably still be in power which in my opinion is the greater of the two evils. War and aggression are not popular choices but are necessary evils at the present time.

[carlc]

in a democracy, it is the peoples responsibility to ensure the right people are in power, the right people are the ones that reflect the majority opinion of the population. should you fail in that duty, your other duty is to put the right people in power. should this require immediate radical action, IE a violent reform, than so be it. it is your duty.

-Wild

Where is the democracy? The U.S. government is a Republic.

[Stormy Eyes]

Terrorists greatly distort and misuse Muslim teachings. However, I think that Muslims are more civilized than the average U.S. citizen. The average person in the U.S. lacks the discipline and mental capacity to keep pace with the character of a Muslim.

We don't do honor killings in the US, and killing gay teens is considered murder here in the US, not justice. As far as I'm concerned, a cultures that blames women for being raped, as many Muslim cultures do, is not one I would consider civilized.

As far as the US being expected to protect weaker nations while at the same time minding our own business: why should we? If you want our protection, you can damned well tolerate our 'meddling'. Take the bad with the good, or leave the US alone. I for one am tired of the rest of the world making demands on the US.

[Stormy Eyes]

in a democracy, it is the peoples responsibility to ensure the right people are in power, the right people are the ones that reflect the majority opinion of the population.

1. The United States of America is supposed to be a constitutional republic, not a democracy. The US is supposed to be governed by laws, not men.

2. The right people for a constitutional republic are those who will uphold the Constitution and uphold the rights of the people, who allow the government to exist in order to preserve their rights.

[WildTangent]

Where is the democracy? The U.S. government is a Republic.
regardless of your style of government, it is still your duty as a citizen to uphold the right government

-Wild

[poofyhairguy]

Let no Muslim into the civilized world, until they themselves learn to be civilized again. .

Umm..Stormy...I have Muslim friends in America and they act "civilized" around me. Whatever the **** that means. Thats because ones religion does not imply ones behavior.

[Kvark]

The war in iraq issue is much older then the war itself. US has been stiring things up in the middle east several times before. The current war did not cause terrorism but previous wars in the region, and unfair treatment during peace time, have certainly helped driving people to terrosim.


It is amazing how some can think that normal muslims/arabs are fanatics and terrorists. The terrorists are a few closed organizations, which make up a very small portion of the population in the middle east.

For example the muslim schools in Pakistan have always been there just like christian monestaries. They have always been teaching islam but in the past they have not been teaching terroism. During the last decade or two some of these schools have been twisted into teaching fanatisism and become terrorist training camps. This is for political reasons. Some of the reasons could be hatered, jealosy, revange, desperation, pride or madness. But the reason is not islam if it was then they would have been training terrorists all along throughout history.

So it is for the political reasons of people like Bin Laden. Twisting islam teachings into fanaticism just happens to be the most effective tool for the men behind terror organizations to lure misguided fools into blowing up both themselves and others.

[Stormy Eyes]

Umm..Stormy...I have Muslim friends in America and they act "civilized" around me. Whatever the **** that means. Thats because ones religion does not imply ones behavior.

Fair enough. I've had a few beers, so I'll probably look at what I've posted night(to say nothing of the work on my novel I've done tonight) and say, "Oh dear goddess, what the hell was I doing?" tomorrow.

[dataw0lf]

But as it turns out it was just a mistake. Mistakes happen.

My first response to this I had to erase because of my moderator status. It was in all caps and rather angry. You're a punk BWF89. Why don't you go serve then, so you can become 'just another mistake', huh?? I'll tell you what, I'd trade 300 of you for just a couple of my friends back. I'd trade 100 of you so I could go back and realize that Gore wasn't going to win after I enlisted and that I was screwed. You're a punk.

I can't continue or I'm going to break my laptop's keyboard.

[dataw0lf]

I've calmed down a bit. Sorry for calling you a punk BWF89; I was angry, and you're, unfortunately, an all too common voice here in America. Let me explain things a bit more.

Yes, mistakes are made. However, there's a mountain of evidence that suggests that our current administration knew that some (or perhaps even ALL!) of the intelligence they received was faulty. Even if MOST of the intelligence they saw they believed to be true, do you think that any sort of faulty intelligence is worth putting American and Iraqi lives on the stake for? I don't think so. Personally, when I heard the administration talking about WMDs in Iraq, I instantly knew that it was ********. I was in Afghanistan at the time, thinking I was doing the right thing and believing that 'no way the American public would ever send me to such a spurious war'. Wow. I was wrong.

Sending troops to Iraq and killing thousands of civilians in the process isn't a mere mistake, my friend. It's a DISASTER. It's MURDER. And I could say 'I hope your consciense weighs you down' or whatever. But I know it won't. You've never been in combat. You can't understand what you're doing when you send soldiers to war. You see some numbers on CNN, maybe even feel bad for a couple minutes. But you can't begin to imagine what it's like to be 20-21 years old about to **** your pants, hiding behind a couple sandbags and wondering if a 7.62mm (AK) round will puncture through those, with brains splattered on your BDUs from who the hell knows, and all you're thinking about while you fire blindly into a haze of dust and smoke is the goddamn sand in your ear. Graphic? Not enough, but I'm trying to be 'Ubuntu safe'.

And this is a sentiment shared by a number of troops: they've lost faith in the American public as a whole to make decisions for them and direct them to the 'right' battle. This isn't good. And I doubt if the public will ever win back my trust. Ever. My last shred of hope was destroyed when Bush was reelected.

[Quest-Master]

We don't do honor killings in the US, and killing gay teens is considered murder here in the US, not justice. As far as I'm concerned, a cultures that blames women for being raped, as many Muslim cultures do, is not one I would consider civilized.

I absolutely love people who assume and jump to conclusions, just like this.

Islam doesn't preach honor killings or gay teens or blame put on women for rape. I, a Muslim, believe that Saudi Arabia is probably the worst practicer of human rights. Do I believe they follow the teachings of Islam? Not at all.

Because you won't find a word in the Quran that teaches despicable acts like these.


Let no Muslim into the civilized world, until they themselves learn to be civilized again. .

I never thought I'd see a quote as bigoted and fully ignorant as this on forums which advocate a distribution with an open-minded and equal set of beliefs.

[TravisNewman]

This thread has reached the point that some long standing grudges may last past this thread. I apologize to everyone who is actively participating here, but I think the thread has run it's course, and gone way past it.