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Espreon
July 27th, 2007, 02:52 PM
CNR 4 Ubuntu,openSUSE,Fedora Core and Debian is coming soon

Link: www.cnr.com

So anyway how excited are you about this?

I actually have it but it does not work.

quattroman
July 27th, 2007, 03:12 PM
it says releasing 2nd Q of 2007. We are 1 month into 3rd Q. And I don't see the install or download links.

And I did not know about this, but after reading I really want it.

tombott
July 27th, 2007, 03:17 PM
Personally I'm looking forward to this.
I think it will be great for the new user / ex-Windows user.

However you may want to read this (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=356211) to see what some other forum members views are :)

zanglang
July 27th, 2007, 03:27 PM
I was pretty happy that Ubuntu will be getting ever more user friendlier at first but now... well, after the long delay AND that awful Linspire patent deal with Microsoft it's more lukewarm. Not holding my breath waiting for it, that's for sure.

vambo
July 27th, 2007, 03:32 PM
Could someone explain the advantages of this over Debian's package management?
Seems a case of it most certainly isn't bust, so why "fix" it?

zanglang
July 27th, 2007, 03:45 PM
Well, CNR is not targetted towards us longer-time users who can wrap our head around apt. Synaptic and Add/Remove's interface isn't that great... there's a name and description, but doesn't offer an even newbie friendly interface. There seems to be some genuinely nice features like community reviews and ranking, commercial software support and so on (check the website), which I do hope they get correctly...

Espreon
July 27th, 2007, 04:07 PM
I was pretty happy that Ubuntu will be getting ever more user friendlier at first but now... well, after the long delay AND that awful Linspire patent deal with Microsoft it's more lukewarm. Not holding my breath waiting for it, that's for sure.

Why are these Linux distro companies making pacts with the Evil Empire?
They should know that Steve Ballmer's claims are nothing but BS!
I am happy that Red Hat did not make a pact, they are probably smart.
And besides Micro$oft can't crush Linux,. since the US Government uses Linux in many important things, plus more than 60% of servers run Linux, and smart companies like Google use it, also Micro$*** would hafta go through IBM (they support Linux, too) and I don;t think Micro$*** would wanna ruin their partnership thingy.

misfitpierce
July 27th, 2007, 04:09 PM
Ever since reading that Microsoft did something with Linspire or something now im not too thrilled at this whole thing. Rather not use something from them... thats just showing my hatred towards microsoft :)

zanglang
July 27th, 2007, 04:17 PM
Why are these Linux distro companies making pacts with the Evil Empire?
They should know that Steve Ballmer's claims are nothing but BS!
I am happy that Red Hat did not make a pact, they are probably smart.
And besides Micro$oft can't crush Linux,. since the US Government uses Linux in many important things, plus more than 60% of servers run Linux, and smart companies like Google use it, also Micro$*** would hafta go through IBM (they support Linux, too) and I don;t think Micro$*** would wanna ruin their partnership thingy.

Yeah, it gets worse once you look at the patent details...
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2007072014373817
But anyway, this is probably better off getting discussed in the community area. ;)

vexorian
July 27th, 2007, 04:18 PM
I personaly hope Linspire stops messing with my distro .

eentonig
July 27th, 2007, 04:22 PM
I'm actually missing an option in the poll

"Not excited at all."

I don't see any added value in creating yet another place to provide easy insatallation of software.

apt-get/apptitude/Synaptic/Add-Remove/.... are already confusing enough. Not that I found either of them difficult to use. But to explain to new users, that they basically are just different interfaces to the same tool and use the same library with software.

In my opinion. If there are things to improve on Ubuntu's package management system, then improve them on Ubuntu's package management system. Don't bring in yet another interface. Same goes for Automatix. Why do we need an external tool to install some software (almost) everyone is using? Not because Ubuntu can't install it, I can tell you that. Not because it's faster. ....


Feisty Fawn has already gone a long way in making Automatix or CNR redundant. Let's continue on that road. Make it that easy and obvious, so that even a monkey or a donkey can install whatever they want.

vexorian
July 27th, 2007, 04:26 PM
Yeah well, I hope CNR is added to the repositories but not included by default.

aysiu
July 27th, 2007, 04:40 PM
I voted somewhat excited. I don't see CNR adding a whole lot, but I'm always glad when there's yet another option. If people want to pick CNR, let them pick it. If they don't, good for them, too.

lbyrd33
July 27th, 2007, 04:46 PM
I voted somewhat excited. I don't see CNR adding a whole lot, but I'm always glad when there's yet another option. If people want to pick CNR, let them pick it. If they don't, good for them, too.

I agree.

While synaptic and CNR are pretty much the same thing, I think the graphical display of CNR might be more appealing to new windows converts.

vexorian
July 27th, 2007, 04:49 PM
well that's just retarded (From them) although is it really healthy to think that new windows converts are so lame?

jrusso2
July 27th, 2007, 05:07 PM
I urge everyone to boycott CNR to send a message to Linspire CEO Kevin Carmony about his support of Microsoft Patent Protection Racket and his fud about GPL v3

samb0057
July 27th, 2007, 05:16 PM
I'm not excited at all. I actually thought about why, and I've realized that it's because the name "cnr" reminds me of the name "linspire" which reminds me of the name "microsoft"

vexorian
July 27th, 2007, 05:26 PM
I urge everyone to boycott CNR to send a message to Linspire CEO Kevin Carmony about his support of Microsoft Patent Protection Racket and his fud about GPL v3
Should also start calling things by their name, it was not a patent deal, it was an stealth-purchase.

Foxmike
July 27th, 2007, 05:26 PM
I don't know what to think about it. Let's wait to see how it will be implemented.

Sunflower1970
July 27th, 2007, 06:40 PM
I was originally somewhat looking forward to this but now, after the Microsoft/Linspire deal, I won't be touching this with a ten-foot poll.

machoo02
July 27th, 2007, 06:48 PM
I urge everyone to boycott CNR to send a message to Linspire CEO Kevin Carmony about his support of Microsoft Patent Protection Racket and his fud about GPL v3

When CNR was first announced I thought "hmm...interesting. Won't use it myself but I suppose it could be useful for others." Now, after the "deal" between Linspire and Microsoft, I wouldn't touch CNR with a 10 foot pole. Wait, scratch that....better make it a 10 meter pole.

FuturePilot
July 27th, 2007, 06:50 PM
Not really excited at all.

forrestcupp
July 27th, 2007, 07:09 PM
Sure we have Synaptic, but CNR has things that Synaptic doesn't have that isn't just about ease of use. CNR has reviews and ratings. CNR also has commercial stuff you can purchase if you choose.

I was initially very excited about CNR. But when I checked it out and found that they really don't have that much software to offer that's not in our repos, I became less excited. I will probably use it infrequently just to read better descriptions and reviews, but I'll probably still install things with apt and Synaptic.

vexorian
July 27th, 2007, 07:22 PM
The add remove thing which then calls synaptic already got rating, I guess it would be cool to extend something into reviews as well, without the need of this proprietary crap.

Spr0k3t
July 27th, 2007, 08:25 PM
I was happy to hear about CNR when the information was first announced. However, my hatred for anything that touches Microsoft stands in the way. I hope CNR is never finished and the project somehow comes to a halt.

forrestcupp
July 28th, 2007, 01:36 AM
The add remove thing which then calls synaptic already got rating, I guess it would be cool to extend something into reviews as well, without the need of this proprietary crap.

I never use Add/Remove so I didn't realize it has ratings. My only question is who rates the stuff?

aysiu
July 28th, 2007, 01:37 AM
I never use Add/Remove so I didn't realize it has ratings. My only question is who rates the stuff?
I think it comes from data submitted through popularity-contest, which you have to opt in for. I'm not 100% sure on that, though.

omns
July 28th, 2007, 01:53 AM
It may have a place for some users but most of us will never touch it

mrgnash
July 28th, 2007, 01:56 AM
I'm not the least bit excited about it. What could be easier than apt/synaptic? Sorry, but this is one Eskimo who won't be buying any ice.

starcraft.man
July 28th, 2007, 02:02 AM
Completely uninterested in CNR, won't be touching my HD.

handy
July 28th, 2007, 02:05 AM
It looks similar to the PC-BSD, pbiDIR (http://www.pbidir.com/) except it will have a huge amount of software available & won't install with the same method.

Well it will at least have the similarity of being web based.

I'm not excited at all, & unfortunately can't trust anything that microsoft is involved in to be anything but self serving for m$.

smoker
July 28th, 2007, 02:17 AM
a while ago i thought this would be a good idea, but after the linspire deal with ms, i want nothing to do with it, so it will probably the first thing uninstalled if included in future ubuntu versions.

xdarkxanarchyx
July 28th, 2007, 03:28 AM
By the time this is available I will probably be using Slackware or Arch as my main distro, but this does seem like it'll be great. I just converted one of my friends today, she got her Ubuntu cd from Ship It and she got her mother interested in it! ^_^

yatt
July 28th, 2007, 05:16 AM
Completely off my radar. IIRC, CNR was a PITA to use, and required more steps to install something than Synaptic did.

hanzomon4
July 28th, 2007, 05:26 AM
Not looking forward to it because (a I don't need it (b The words of the linspire ceo(?) about Ubuntu put a bad taste in my mouth.

Countryboy123
July 28th, 2007, 05:50 AM
I agree their should be a line saying not wanted / not needed .

This is just another package manager. We have Apt , Synaptic and Add/Remove. I have heard of two or three others for nonDebian packages , but I do not remember their names. Cnr technology is supposed to be open sourced , so sooner or later the "useful" technology should make it to other package managers.

I even found another third party program called Automix or something like it. ( It had problems with system updates , so I was not interested.)

___ _____________ __________

To be fair with the Ubuntu community I must confess that Freespire was my first distro and I have actually used Cnr. I had the first Freespire release ,1.0.13 , I think. Between the bugs in the operating system, Cnr its self, and the negative energy in the forums, I moved on.

Tux Aubrey
July 28th, 2007, 05:54 AM
I am far from being excited - I'll boycott it for reasons others have stated (re. Linspire). I am seeing more new package manager front-ends than there are distros (eg. look at Linux Mint's version) and I think its becoming a bit of a problem. Everybody seems to climbing over each other to dumb down package management.

I do think that a bit of further development of Synaptic would remove the need for "new" PMs - eg. better package descriptions including standard key words and terminology, as well some sort of repository/FOSS label for each package.

adamklempner
July 28th, 2007, 07:10 AM
I, for one, am looking forward to CNR. It worked well for me when I used to use Linspire. I found that it worked out to be a lot more efficient than anything currently available in Kubuntu. Better descriptions, user reviews, screenshots, and categorization made it a lot easier to find out about programs you have never heard of before. I probably wasted less time tracking down the programs I needed to get things done with CNR. At that time I was new to Linux and had no idea about any program names or functionalities...

And the aisle feature was really nice too, hopefully that will carry over into the Ubuntu version of CNR. You could define your own "aisle" of software, so that when you reinstalled the OS or built a new computer, you could essentially "one-click" in CNR and have all of your software installed at once. I duplicated my desktop setup onto my laptop this way and quickly got my systems back up to normal after OS reinstalls/upgrades. The aisles are a way underrated feature IMO. Similarly, CNR could be set to maintain an install/uninstall history on the server. "What was that thing I installed a week ago Tuesday on my laptop? Oh let me check..." 20 seconds later it is installed on my desktop too. That was a nice touch also.

I plan on also making good use of the "Tip Jar". I shouldn't have to mess around with paypal or other similar services just to give 5 bucks to the guy that wrote some cool software that I have been using for years... I'm gonna put $50 into my account and just tip programs that I find particularly useful.

Personally, I am not that happy with Linspire, Inc.'s recent actions, (which in part is why I am here) but if CNR turns out to be a good tool then I will gladly use it. I think it has the potential to do a lot more good for the Linux community than harm.

Frak
July 28th, 2007, 07:14 AM
Not at all, its our distro, not theirs, SO STOP MESSING WITH IT!!!

tombott
July 28th, 2007, 08:36 AM
Why are these Linux distro companies making pacts with the Evil Empire?
They should know that Steve Ballmer's claims are nothing but BS!
I am happy that Red Hat did not make a pact, they are probably smart.
And besides Micro$oft can't crush Linux,. since the US Government uses Linux in many important things, plus more than 60% of servers run Linux, and smart companies like Google use it, also Micro$*** would hafta go through IBM (they support Linux, too) and I don;t think Micro$*** would wanna ruin their partnership thingy.


Ever since reading that Microsoft did something with Linspire or something now im not too thrilled at this whole thing. Rather not use something from them... thats just showing my hatred towards microsoft :)


I was happy to hear about CNR when the information was first announced. However, my hatred for anything that touches Microsoft stands in the way. I hope CNR is never finished and the project somehow comes to a halt.

The Microsoft bashing that goes on, on this forum never ceases to amaze me.

Microsoft are huge and successful, ok some time their business practices are frowned upon and the US Government has let them get away with far too much (buying out competition etc). But what if IBM had won the OS war and we where all using OS/2 or how about Apple and we are all using OS/X, then you'd all be bashing IBM or Apple.

The US is a capitalist country and encourages companies to be the biggest and the best they can be (Cocoa Cola, McDonalds, WallMart etc.), so it's no wonder Microsoft has got as big and successful as it is.

Microsoft have made huge innovations in the way we use PC in the work place and home environment. Reading all this **** about Microsoft is really pretty pathetic.

If you are going to bring Microsoft in to arguments and discussions at least include some facts rather than
'Microsoft wants to crush Linux' or 'My hatred for anything that touches Microsoft' or 'My hatred towards Microsoft'. Lets actually have some substance to back these views up otherwise anybody thinking of making a switch from Microsoft to Linux who reads this forums may well think twice.

By the way I'm not a huge Microsoft fan, but I can also appreciate the good things they have done and don't let all the bad things completely get in the way.

I imagine I'm going to get flamed for this post, but such is life it will only go to highlight the immaturity of some of the views of poster on this forum.

tombott
July 28th, 2007, 08:43 AM
I am far from being excited - I'll boycott it for reasons others have stated (re. Linspire). I am seeing more new package manager front-ends than there are distros (eg. look at Linux Mint's version) and I think its becoming a bit of a problem. Everybody seems to climbing over each other to dumb down package management.

Oh god heaven forbid that installing software could be made easier!

Frak
July 28th, 2007, 08:45 AM
Oh god heaven forbid that installing software could be made easier!
I agree, of course we are too 1337 to help n00bs.
The beauty of Open Source is the ability to make things better and easier to use.

tombott
July 28th, 2007, 08:50 AM
I agree, of course we are too 1337 to help n00bs.
The beauty of Open Source is the ability to make things better and easier to use.

Indeed, and the freedom of choice.

What may be suitable for one could be completely unsuitable for another, but that's life!

hanzomon4
July 28th, 2007, 09:47 AM
Microsoft have made huge innovations in the way we use PC in the work place and home environment.


Like what? :confused:

tomcheng76
July 28th, 2007, 10:00 AM
FAQ Question 1

What is "CNR?"

CNR is a one-click digital software delivery service for desktop Linux applications, libraries and packages developed by Linspire, Inc., which allows desktop Linux users to install, uninstall, manage, and keep updated, thousands of software programs on their Linux computer, all with just one click. CNR is so easy to use, literally anyone can use it, of any age or computer skill level. If you can click a mouse, you can use CNR.

I use synaptic LOL

tombott
July 28th, 2007, 11:03 AM
Like what? :confused:

Plug and Play technology, Exchange Server, MS Office.

Ok there are other companies out there that have released similar products:

Novell Groupwise
WordPerfect (Novell, Corel etc.)

But MS have become the standard.

drjnet
July 28th, 2007, 11:08 AM
well i think its welcome move. anything to give your average user more choice of os has gotta be a good thing.

3rdalbum
July 28th, 2007, 11:32 AM
Click 'n' Run currently has older versions of programs than Ubuntu's repos.

I'd rather use GetDeb.net.

racoq
July 28th, 2007, 11:39 AM
Why are these Linux distro companies making pacts with the Evil Empire?
.....Micro$*** would hafta go through IBM (they support Linux, too) and I don;t think Micro$*** would wanna ruin....

I'm tired in this forum of seeing spelling insults. Micro$***, Microsucks, etc... Man stop that immature crap, it is spelled Microsoft.

As for CNR we don't need it, ubuntu already has the Add/Remove program, i think we should improve it and not get another program from a third party, that IMHO is not that good.

needtolookatascreenshot
July 28th, 2007, 12:40 PM
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=519877

handy
July 28th, 2007, 12:58 PM
I expect that CNR will find a way to track its users.

Adamant1988
July 28th, 2007, 01:05 PM
Plug and Play technology, Exchange Server, MS Office.

Ok there are other companies out there that have released similar products:

Novell Groupwise
WordPerfect (Novell, Corel etc.)

But MS have become the standard.

Microsoft has rarely truly innovated, IMO. Their preferred method for competing against companies that can actually compete with them is to Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish. Highly effective, but hardly innovative.

tombott
July 28th, 2007, 02:15 PM
And these companies released the software long before MS, so where exactly is the innovation on MS' part you claimed?

I also have to wonder about your whining about people attacking MS. There are very concrete issues people take with the current policy of MS to use patent threads against free software and the deal Linspire made with MS is certainly part of this problem. How one can think that pointing out that the US is capitalist could be a good answer to these issues is beyond me.

And racoq, if there's on thing I find sillier than spelling Microsoft M$ or something similar, then it's people who think writing M$ warrents throwing hissy fits and taking every discussion off-topic.

Speaking of which, I now will finally say something on-topic.
It never ceases to amaze me, that people think package management can't and shouldn't be improved in Ubuntu. Why don't you tell this to all the devs who are constantly working on improving it?

I also find the notion that apt and synaptic are so easy to use quite interesting, while everyone who ever had any interaction with "normal users" knows they are not. That doesn't mean that they aren't great tools, it simply means that they are not easy to use.

Also, I can never understand how people can claim that CNR doesn't add anything new Ubuntu doesn't already have. One look at it and you'd know that this is simply not the case.

Does this mean that I'm excited about CNR for Ubuntu? Unfortunately, no, it doesn't. While I really was ready to at least give Linspire the benefit of a doubt despite all the heavy critizism they received, their deal with MS clearly shows that they can not and should not be trusted.

As the US is a hugely capitalist country companies like Microsoft are allowed and encouraged to become the biggest they possibly can, crushing any opposition in it's way.

Yes companies like Novell and Corel did create similar products before Microsoft, but I happen to think many of Microsoft's products are better and have more innovation.

I admin over 20 Groupwise systems and around 60 Exchange systems. I think Groupwise is a great system and prefer many of it's features over Exchange but the new clustering services in Exchange 2007 is nothing short of breath taking.

Just because a company makes a deal with Microsoft does not mean they cannot be trusted, and if you truly believe it does then you need to get your head out of your ar$e.

runningwithscissors
July 28th, 2007, 02:27 PM
LOL Micro$haft.

Besides, Exchange and Groupwise are toys for office-monkeys. Calendaring? Who the **** uses that?

forrestcupp
July 28th, 2007, 02:29 PM
The main point of the Linspire/Microsoft deal was to work together on interoperability. What is wrong with that? Even Mark Shuttleworth said he would be willing to work with Microsoft on interoperability. Linspire has always been a watered down distro whose target is Windows desktop users. This deal really doesn't change anything, and shouldn't really be surprising. Interoperability isn't wrong. If it were, then you all should be boycotting OpenOffice.org because that is their main selling point.

The Microsoft deal isn't an issue for me with CNR. I'm mainly just disappointed in their lack of software that's not already easily available in our repos. The reviews and screenshots will be useful, and the aisles sounds like an interesting concept.

vexorian
July 28th, 2007, 03:19 PM
The main point of the Linspire/Microsoft deal was to work together on interoperability

No, Linspire was purchased by Microsoft.

I mean, seriously, the "deal" was nothing about interoperability... It was simply Microsoft paying money to Linspire so they become their FUD henchmen and also to block any right the GPL gives to users when the software is distributed by Linspire. It is a terrible thing, if it was really about interoperability then we wouldn't be this annoyed.

Adamant1988
July 28th, 2007, 04:50 PM
No, Linspire was purchased by Microsoft.

I mean, seriously, the "deal" was nothing about interoperability... It was simply Microsoft paying money to Linspire so they become their FUD henchmen and also to block any right the GPL gives to users when the software is distributed by Linspire. It is a terrible thing, if it was really about interoperability then we wouldn't be this annoyed.

This post makes my sarcasm detector tingle.

But seriously, no one spreads FUD like Stallman and the FOSS crowd.

"Microsoft is Evil, they're trying to imprison you"
"Microsoft is trying to destroy Linux"
"Proprietary software deprives you of your rights!"

vexorian
July 28th, 2007, 05:07 PM
The third one is totally true.
The recent deals should be proof 2nd is true.

And first one is false, since they have already imprisoned everyone so they are not trying anymore.


Also, if you want to check, thanks to the deal, the customers are unable to "modify, distribute or fix" the software themselves, MS no longer gives them permission. Even though they are using GPLed software, the deal's foremost intention is to nullify the GPL.

Links:
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2007072014373817
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm

aysiu
July 28th, 2007, 05:12 PM
Even though hatred of/ concern about Microsoft is related to CNR tangentially, can we keep this thread mainly about CNR?

We have another thread that's more appropriate for the current discussion. I will start moving posts there if the discussion keeps moving in that direction.
Concerned about Windows bashing (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=341579)

Dr. C
July 28th, 2007, 05:12 PM
There seems to be a great deal of mis understanding of the Linspire deal with Microsoft. On the surface it looks like a victory for Microsoft but in reality it is actually a huge strategic victory for free software. Why? Because Microsoft has been forced to concede on GPL v3, by excluding GPL v3 software from the deal. This ensures that over time as more and more FLOSS in Linspire moves to GPLv3 the part the deal that Microsoft wants (patent covenants, and software distribution restrictions) becomes irrelevant and moot while the part that is of value to Linspire users (interoperability remains in place).

An interoperability deal with Microsoft without patent covenants will be welcomed buy many GNU / Linux distributions including the respective Desktop and Server leaders , Ubuntu and RedHat.

What I find particularly amusing about the Linspire deal is each individual FLOSS copyright holder can choose the rate at which they want to take Microsoft's “prize” away by controlling the rate of migration of their projects to the GPL v3.

The FSF in particular seems to have chosen the method of cooking a live lobster by slowly rising the heat. Of thousands of GNU projects only an handful under 20 have been moved to GPL v3. The rest will follow over time. It will be months even years before they find their way into Linspire., but eventually they will and the lobster will be fully cooked and ready to eat.

As for CNR in Ubuntu it is a good thing. CNR's big plus is that it makes commercial software, in particular codecs and DVD playing software available, to Ubuntu users. This will allow those who live in countries with oppressive intellectual property laws such as the United States to play certain music and videos on their Ubuntu systems. I addition Ubuntu users will likely be able to benefit from the interoperability part of the deal through CNR with more than just Microsoft codecs

I voted for really excited. I really like the idea of RMS slowly taking away Balmer's prize one GNU command at a time.

needtolookatascreenshot
July 28th, 2007, 05:14 PM
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=519877

needtolookatascreenshot
July 28th, 2007, 05:16 PM
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=519877

runningwithscissors
July 28th, 2007, 05:36 PM
This post makes my sarcasm detector tingle.

But seriously, no one spreads FUD like Stallman and the FOSS crowd.

"Microsoft is Evil, they're trying to imprison you"
"Microsoft is trying to destroy Linux"
"Proprietary software deprives you of your rights!"
Yeah, but that FUD benefits me.
So MS can suck it.

Dr. C
July 28th, 2007, 05:57 PM
...Anyway, no, making a deal with MS does not mean a company can't be trusted, making the deal Linspire made with MS however does.

One thing those who hate Microsoft fail to understand about the Linspire deal is that you can execute someone with a quick and painless death (the Ubuntu / Redhat approach to Microsoft patent FUD) or you can set the stage for others to slowly torture the the subject to death (the Linspire / Xandros approach to Microsoft patent FUD). In both cases the subject dies but in the second case death may turn out to be mercy after a long agonizing torture. It does take longer for the subject to die in the second case.

This why why I think CNR is a good thing especially because of the Linspire deal with Microsoft . Ubuntu users will get the benefits with none of the downsides. Not even having to wait for the subject to die under torture.

GMU_DodgyHodgy
July 28th, 2007, 05:59 PM
To be honest, I am somewhat excited, anything that can add value to the Linux experience and support the adoption of Linux and related software is a generally good thing.

When one takes a closer look at the Linspire deal and the others I really wonder what MS got out of it except some short term cash. The "patent deals" are , from a practical sense - unenforceable - even against businesses using the software. In return, Linspire can distribute proprietary codecs and other software components that make Linux easier to use. If someone does not like the deal - they are not forced to buy Linspire or use Freespire.

CNR is being offered to all major distros of Linux. This issue is seperate from their deal with MS. So it should be evaluated on its own.

I look forward to at least see what it offers. If I like I will use it. If not - well no harm no foul.

Dr. C
July 28th, 2007, 06:23 PM
To be honest, I am somewhat excited, anything that can add value to the Linux experience and support the adoption of Linux and related software is a generally good thing.

When one takes a closer look at the Linspire deal and the others I really wonder what MS got out of it except some short term cash. The "patent deals" are , from a practical sense - unenforceable - even against businesses using the software. In return, Linspire can distribute proprietary codecs and other software components that make Linux easier to use. If someone does not like the deal - they are not forced to buy Linspire or use Freespire.

CNR is being offered to all major distros of Linux. This issue is seperate from their deal with MS. So it should be evaluated on its own.

I look forward to at least see what it offers. If I like I will use it. If not - well no harm no foul.

For the most part I agree. Microsoft got very little out of the deal; and because of the deal CNR will be able to offer Microsoft propriety codecs, so CNR is not completely separate from the Microsoft deal. CNR is a lot more than some codecs it will bring a large selection of commercial software to Ubuntu (both free and non free, as in speech) and that is a good thing.

needtolookatascreenshot
July 28th, 2007, 06:39 PM
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=519877

GMU_DodgyHodgy
July 28th, 2007, 06:44 PM
Screenshot - If you take a look at the substance of the agreement - Microsoft got little in the way of enforcing any of its "patent infringements". While I agree Linspire users only got some general patent protection - Microsoft got little in the way of anything enforceable.

So now we can play window media files at it to Ubuntu - no problem. Its my understanding that CNR not only provides a convenient way to get software for Linux - it also keeps track of what you have installed or purchased - so if your machines dies and you need a new one - it can automatically reset your previous software library in your new machines.

My feeling regarding Linspire signing anything with MS aside - i think this could be a useful and helpful product.

needtolookatascreenshot
July 28th, 2007, 06:48 PM
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=519877

xpod
July 28th, 2007, 07:04 PM
I'm tired in this forum of seeing spelling insults. Micro$***, Microsucks, etc... Man stop that immature crap, it is spelled Microsoft.


Coming from a user with a "swat M$" avatar......... thats actually quite funny.:)

Dr. C
July 28th, 2007, 08:52 PM
Lol, did you read it? Linspire and Linspire customers did virtually get nothing of the agreement. Not one thing, but some very weakly worded patent protection, though when you read the agreement, it becomes clear that virtually nothing at all is covered by this protection.

But that supposes that Linspire customers actually care about "patent protection" from Microsoft, based on FUD over undisclosed and untested patents. If that is not enough the FUD now has a legal cloud over it due to the GPLv3. They don't. The only organization that actually cares about this patent protections FUD is Microsoft, so the weaker and less relevant the patent protection becomes the worse it is for Microsoft. What GNU / Linux distributors actually care about is interoperability and in Linspire's case that means Windows media files on a Linspire system among other things.


Wrong again. They were perfectly able to sell them before and would be perfectly able to sell now without this agreement, just as others are able to sell them.
Are you sure that you know what you are talking about?

Yes I do. Linspire got to license Microsoft codecs as a result of the Lindows / Windows trademark settlement. Basically Microsoft stood the risk of loosing the Windows trademark in the United States, IANAL but i believe it it is on shaky legal ground, so they had to settle with Lindows / Linspire by paying them cash and among other things licensing codecs. The codec licenses were for a fixed period of time I believe 5 years so they have to be renewed



I agree. It would be, if it wasn't for Linspire.

CNR is good regardless of the Linspire deal

needtolookatascreenshot
July 28th, 2007, 09:20 PM
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=519877

forrestcupp
July 28th, 2007, 10:09 PM
So, as I said all along, it has nothing, nothing at all, not one little bit, to do with the MS-Linspire patent deal.

Just take a step back and think about what you are saying. There were two deals. It had everything in the world to do with the first deal.

Also, the deal does have to do with interoperability. The whole selling point is that they would work together to get Microsoft's codecs, file formats, and software to work better with Linspire.

And I don't hate Microsoft enough to not use excellent software just because they are involved.

needtolookatascreenshot
July 28th, 2007, 10:35 PM
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=519877

jiminycricket
July 28th, 2007, 10:42 PM
Microsoft have made huge innovations in the way we use PC in the work place and home environment. Reading all this **** about Microsoft is really pretty pathetic.


No, they haven't. They actually destroyed all the innovators. Computers suck these days compared to the potential of BeOS. BTW, you're all for capitalism, yet you are ok with monopolies? Microsoft has desstroyed the free market for browsers, OSes, computers. Set the industry back years because they have to do everything to keep the money of Windows + Office rolling in, even when that means killing superior technology through threats.

Microsoft = embrace extend extinguish. The Linspire-MS deal is very important to that, since it lets them get their hands into Ubuntu.

juxtaposed
July 28th, 2007, 10:42 PM
How excited are you about the new CNR supporting Ubuntu?

Not at all.

darksidedude
July 28th, 2007, 10:43 PM
do there patent deals effect freespire? because I use freespire out of necisity for my laptop ( dont want to get into the whole ndis wrapper)

jiminycricket
July 28th, 2007, 10:44 PM
Plug and Play technology, Exchange Server, MS Office.

Ok there are other companies out there that have released similar products:

Novell Groupwise
WordPerfect (Novell, Corel etc.)

But MS have become the standard.

Yes, you've just told us that MS killed superior products by listing those. Why don't you read what happened to Groupwise and Wordperfect (here's an antitrust complaint that details how MS sabotaged Wordperfect: http://www.novell.com/news/press/archive/2004/11/complaint.pdf ) and every other innovative application? Plug n play? OSes BEFORE Windows had it, but teh general consumer couldn't benefit because MSFT has a monopoly on OS distribution and corrals the OEMs with threats.

Recall Windows 98, it was called "plug n PRAY" because it worked so badly. Even today, Bluetooth is a mess because of licensing issues on Windows.

I'm sorry, but you are making very revisionist history here.

darksidedude
July 28th, 2007, 10:48 PM
Mac could be a contender if you didnt have to buy there computers.... thats what keeps me from getting one

jiminycricket
July 28th, 2007, 11:03 PM
This post makes my sarcasm detector tingle.

But seriously, no one spreads FUD like Stallman and the FOSS crowd.

"Microsoft is Evil, they're trying to imprison you"
"Microsoft is trying to destroy Linux"
"Proprietary software deprives you of your rights!"

Here's the thing though -- those all have reasonings behind them. It would be FUD otherwise, but RMS has proven extremely precient. Eben Moglen's arguments are very persuasive and thought through, not like those hypothetical shallow statements.

"Microsoft is Evil, they're trying to imprison you" --> that is their strategy, I don't think Bill Gates would contest that (see his "sorta get addicted" to Windows line in reference to piracy)

"Microsoft is trying to destroy Linux" --> well we all know MS hates competition. They will certainly not help Linux, in the long run. They __can't__ because their billion dollar revenue depends on Windows only (and Office depends on Windows)

"Proprietary software deprives you of your rights!" --> free of spyware, free from monopolies, lower costs, free to contract out to install custom features, remove features, remove lock-in, etc. etc.

I agree with you also that MS does not innovate, they use that much more profitable strategy E-E-E

Why the patent deals are bad (hint -- they really don't have anything to do with interoperability, MS is the one blocking interoperability -- just ask the European Commission who's fighting for YOUR rights with MS fighting you every step of the way: http://ec.europa.eu/comm/competition/ antitrust/cases/microsoft/

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20070517083516872


Eben Moglen: Oh, I beg your pardon, certainly, I, the question was so obvious that it needed no repetition: “Could I explain the threat posed to GPL’d software’s freedom by the Microsoft/Novell agreement?”.

And I’m going to speak in slightly more general terms than that, beginning with: Imagine a party which wants to eliminate Free Software’s freedom or at least hobble its developers in serious ways, so as to inhibit their ability to compete. Imagine that such a party has patents of uncertain validity but in large numbers, which it could conceivably use to scare developers and users. Imagine that such a party then begins to make periodic threats in the form, “Gee, we have a lot of patents. Never mind how many. Never mind what they are. Never mind how good they are. We have a lot of patents, and someday something terrible will happen. Don’t use that software.”

Imagine that that’s a strategy that the party adverse to freedom engages in because it’s better than suing. Suing is expensive. Suing is irreversible. And suing might actually cause you to have to explain which patents they are and why they’re any good. [Laughter] So threatening is better than suing, OK? Imagine a party who engages in recurrent threats every summer time, for years on end, on a sort of annual “be very afraid” tour, okay? [Laughter]

I know, it sounds absurd.

Imagine now that what happens is that the annual “Be very afraid” tour starts creating terrible pushback, because people call up who are the CEOs of major banks and financial institutions, and they say, “Those people you’re threatening are us. We’re the largest, richest, most powerful people in capitalism, and we determine the value of your stock. We think you should be quiet now.” OK?

That happens if you do this thing of saying “be very afraid” to people who have lots and lots of money and lots and lots of power and who control the value of your stock. They will push back. The business model of threatening to sue people works if the people are 12-year-olds. It does not work real well if they are the pillars of finance capitalism. So as a party engaged in annual “be very afraid” tours, you’re going to start to get pushback by enterprise customers who say, “That’s *us* you’re threatening.”

Now what if you could reduce their sense of being the people who are made afraid? What if you could find a way to give them quiet and peace -- and make a little money on the side -- so that the only people who are left quaking when you did your annual “Be Very Afraid” tour were the developers themselves? Now you would have given yourself a major ecological boost in swinging your patents around and threatening to hurt people.

Deals for patent safety create the possibility of that risk to my clients, the development community. If enterprise thinks that it can go and buy the software my clients make from some party who gives them peace from the adversary in return for purchasing a license from them, then enterprises may think they have made a separate peace, and if they open the business section one morning and it says “Adversary Makes Trouble for Free Software”, they can think, “Not my problem. I bought the such-and-such distribution, and I’m OK.”

This process of attempting to segregate the enterprise customers, whose insistence on their rights will stop the threatening, from the developers, who are at the end the real object of the threat, is what is wrong with the deals.

So what you ought to do is to say to parties, Please don’t make separate peace at the community’s expense. Please don’t try to make your customers safe, if that’s going to result in the destruction of the upstream rain forest where your goods come from. We’re an ecological system. If you undermine community defenses, you’re undermining the whole ecology. And doing that for the benefit of your customers at the expense of your suppliers is not a good way to stay in business.

So that’s the fundamental discussion about the problem created by such deals.

A little taste of what's in store for us as MS uses their old monopoly to slip into the Workgroup/Sever area


"For the first time in more than a decade we're taking share from Linux," Kevin Turner, Microsoft's chief operating officer.

http://www.microsoft.com/msft/speech/FY07/TurnerFAM2007.mspx


do there patent deals effect freespire? because I use freespire out of necisity for my laptop ( dont want to get into the whole ndis wrapper)

MS has paid up for one round of Linspire users to get the patent deal. Doesn't seem to greatly affect Freespire AFAIK but they would really like you to move to Linspire and pay up both to MS and Linspire Inc.


Freespire, the free version of Linspire Linux, will remain a free download, Carmony added in his June 14 Linspire Letter, but "for the most part" will not include these technologies, nor the patent infringement protection offered by Microsoft. "If Freespire users want these new features (TrueType Fonts, Windows Media 10, etc.), they always have the option of moving to Linspire." However, better interoperability between OpenOffice and Microsoft Office will be available to Freespire users, he added.

But you do lose the ability to share it, etc.


The European Commission has concluded, after a five-year investigation, that Microsoft Corporation broke European Union competition law by leveraging its near monopoly in the market for PC operating systems (OS) onto the markets for work group server operating systems(1) and for media players(2). Because the illegal behaviour is still ongoing, the Commission has ordered Microsoft to disclose to competitors, within 120 days, the interfaces(3) required for their products to be able to 'talk' with the ubiquitous Windows OS. Microsoft is also required, within 90 days, to offer a version of its Windows OS without Windows Media Player to PC manufacturers (or when selling directly to end users). In addition, Microsoft is fined € 497 million for abusing its market power in the EU.

racoq
July 29th, 2007, 01:25 AM
Coming from a user with a "swat M$" avatar......... thats actually quite funny.:)
There isn't any M$, or MicroShaft in my avatar is it? It is pure sarcasm not a spelling insult thing. You loosed a great opportunity to say nothing, since your arguments are empty and only pure bashing :D

handy
July 29th, 2007, 03:31 AM
CNR is a lot more than some codecs it will bring a large selection of commercial software to Ubuntu (both free and non free, as in speech) and that is a good thing.

Microsoft probably have plans for Linux Office to be distributed this way.


Mac could be a contender if you didnt have to buy there computers.... thats what keeps me from getting one

Apple at heart are at least as closed up & controlling as MS. If they were not, it would be Apple's on 90% of the worlds desktops. Apple would not license their technology in the early days which was the biggest business mistake that they ever made. They did not license it because of the Apple ego!

Apple can definitely not be trusted either.

forrestcupp
July 29th, 2007, 03:49 AM
No, they haven't. They actually destroyed all the innovators.

MS did a pretty decent job innovating DRM.

vexorian
July 29th, 2007, 05:24 AM
Actually, if Mac OS/X worked on non-apple computers, it would have gotten a bigger market share, I would say like triple what they got right now.

I won't lie, I hate them, but many people love the way OS/X works, I have also figured out why the dock is always going to have more fans than a taskbar.

I must mention that there are countries like mine, and also like big places like china, in which computers are not branded but built from parts by third persons (in the majority ) If OS/X didn't require apple computers it could have been able to join those places. And it would have even been pirated (please, see piracy as free advertising, cause that's what it is in reality...)

handy
July 29th, 2007, 06:11 AM
I must mention that there are countries like mine, and also like big places like china, in which computers are not branded but built from parts by third persons (in the majority ) If OS/X didn't require apple computers it could have been able to join those places. And it would have even been pirated (please, see piracy as free advertising, cause that's what it is in reality...)

Building & servicing computers was what I used to do, retired now, so thankfully I am not forced to work with M$ products anymore. :-D

jkdub
July 29th, 2007, 07:08 AM
When I was trying Linspire I learned to hate CNR. Too much of the time it couldn't connect to the server.
From a dial up point of view one major flaw was that if I lost my connection I had to start my download all over again.
There weren't enough apps.

When I got into Ubuntu I was very pleased with synaptic. More apps than I'll need. If I lose my connection or need to disconnect I can restart my download from where it left off so downloading a large file is possible. As far as descriptions of programs I personally can't see how CNR is any better, seems the same to me in synaptic. I've never had a problem connecting to the server.

If it was an option I would have voted "not excited at all".

Frak
July 29th, 2007, 08:24 AM
I didn't have dial up, and it still failed and had to reconnect, and redownload.

tombott
July 30th, 2007, 09:48 AM
Yes, you've just told us that MS killed superior products by listing those. Why don't you read what happened to Groupwise and Wordperfect (here's an antitrust complaint that details how MS sabotaged Wordperfect: http://www.novell.com/news/press/archive/2004/11/complaint.pdf ) and every other innovative application? Plug n play? OSes BEFORE Windows had it, but teh general consumer couldn't benefit because MSFT has a monopoly on OS distribution and corrals the OEMs with threats.

Recall Windows 98, it was called "plug n PRAY" because it worked so badly. Even today, Bluetooth is a mess because of licensing issues on Windows.

I'm sorry, but you are making very revisionist history here.

What a complete crock of tripe!
I know all about Groupwise and WordPerfect, I know that Microsoft has had to pay Novell and Corel huge sums of money over the years.
MS has not killed off Groupwise, it's still sold, developed and used.
The best product doesn't always win, history can show us that, VHS v Betamax, Internet Explorer v NetScape Navigator for example.

tombott
July 30th, 2007, 09:53 AM
No, they haven't. They actually destroyed all the innovators. Computers suck these days compared to the potential of BeOS. BTW, you're all for capitalism, yet you are ok with monopolies? Microsoft has desstroyed the free market for browsers, OSes, computers. Set the industry back years because they have to do everything to keep the money of Windows + Office rolling in, even when that means killing superior technology through threats.

Microsoft = embrace extend extinguish. The Linspire-MS deal is very important to that, since it lets them get their hands into Ubuntu.

lol, your trying to tell me that MS have destroyed all innovators? How then do you explain all the people who help to develop Ubuntu for example?

When have I said I am all for capitalism? I haven't I have just said that the US has allowed MS to become who they are. I haven't said I agree or justify it!

If MS has destroyed the free market for browsers, why am I using Firefox and why was I using Mozilla before that?

MS doesn't get away with half the stuff in Europe that it does in the US and rightly so.

I just don't understand how so many people can seriously believe that MS has not done anything to benefit computers or technology in general.

I look forward to being able to install Microsoft codes via CNR!

smoker
July 30th, 2007, 10:57 AM
hme, wonder if the devs are monitoring this poll!

forrestcupp
July 30th, 2007, 03:02 PM
If MS has destroyed the free market for browsers, why am I using Firefox and why was I using Mozilla before that?
And Firefox has something like 35% of market share. That's hardly being destroyed.

reyfer
July 30th, 2007, 03:20 PM
Can anybody, please, for real, explain to me what, besides having thumbnails and charging for some products, what does CNR do that Synaptic doesn't?

liverpoolfc2
July 30th, 2007, 03:22 PM
Great i just spent the last 6 weeks learning how Ubuntu works, spent all my time reading the posts on here (thankfully didn't have to ask questions as the answers are all here) learning how apt/synaptic work and now I read about this. Whats the point? just click click bloody click, well as I'm trying to move from windows completely I can't see the point in this. Everyone to their own I guess, as for me, I'll just keep reading and try very hard not to be using the click click options windows uses.

vexorian
July 30th, 2007, 04:53 PM
And Firefox has something like 35% of market share. That's hardly being destroyed.
35% is not equal to 5%.

smoker
July 30th, 2007, 05:04 PM
Great i just spent the last 6 weeks learning how Ubuntu works, spent all my time reading the posts on here (thankfully didn't have to ask questions as the answers are all here) learning how apt/synaptic work and now I read about this. Whats the point? just click click bloody click, well as I'm trying to move from windows completely I can't see the point in this. Everyone to their own I guess, as for me, I'll just keep reading and try very hard not to be using the click click options windows uses.

it's good to learn alternative methods also, the 'click click, bloody click' way may not always be working, lol, :)

Frak
July 30th, 2007, 05:20 PM
35% is not equal to 5%.
5% is also not equal to 14.55% at the end of June.

forrestcupp
July 31st, 2007, 03:29 AM
5% is also not equal to 14.55% at the end of June.

Yeah, guys, I was wrong. I don't know where I got that. But in Europe, it has 28% and in one country 38%. So I guess technically, I could be somewhat right.

But even so, 14.55% is hardly being stamped out especially when it is on the rise.

adamklempner
July 31st, 2007, 04:10 AM
Can anybody, please, for real, explain to me what, besides having thumbnails and charging for some products, what does CNR do that Synaptic doesn't?

From www.cnr.com/faq.html (I have placed in bold the items that I feel are noteworthy and possibly true differences):


How is CNR different from other installation systems, such as apt-get, YAST, etc.?

CNR is different from most other software management system in many ways:

One-click graphical install and uninstall of thousands of programs.
Automatic update notification and one-click updating of OS components and software applications.
Program and services management.
One-click access to proprietary codecs, drivers and software.
Allows you to buy dozens of different commercial programs, such as DVD Player, StarOffice, games,
accounting programs, Win4Lin, Crossover Office, Cedega, etc.
Menu entries and desktop icons (optionally) are automatically added when installing and removed when uninstalling.
"Charts" to easily find the most popular software programs by category.
Search feature to easily find software programs by name, category, keywords, similar programs, author, etc.
Clear, easy-to-understand product pages, including:


Screenshots of programs
User reviews of the programs
Description, versions, specs, file size, source, etc.
User support and help by program ( My note: this is supposed to be like a mini discussion forum for each program AFAIK )
Release Notes
Screenshots


"Aisles" to group applications together for one-click install of multiple applications.
Dedicated, high-speed server farms with huge bandwidth pipes for fast downloads.
Friendly naming shown alongside normal package name.
"Voting Booth" where users help prioritize new software to be added or updated.
Automated, on-line Publisher Program where anyone can submit software to be QA-ed and tested for inclusion in the CNR Warehouse.
Automatically retries and fixes any problem downloads.
CNR has a better than 98% success rate. (The < 2% failures are usually a result of modem dropoffs, in which case CNR will can automatically resume when connected, providing the user with a successful install.)
Many of the most popular applications are enhanced and improved before adding them to the CNR Warehouse.
Products and services which are found exclusively in the CNR Warehouse.
Tracks problem packages on the server automatically, 24/7, and immediately hides the product from CNR users and instantly notifies the maintainer when a problem occurs.
Easy, one-click access to a program's source code.
User profiles based upon machine for managing multiple machines per user.
Local or networked software repository for quick install of same programs on multiple computers on the same network or from a CD.


Whether or not they will deliver all of this, I don't know. But if they do, I think it will be beneficial for the Linux novice to intermediate user. Highly technical users probably won't have much use for many of these features, but I bet their mothers would...

jimrz
July 31st, 2007, 04:23 AM
no interest in using it. cnr.com might be useful for "window shopping" ... check out their reviews/ratings, etc ... but that's about it

zodmaner
July 31st, 2007, 04:41 AM
After reading this (http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/world-domination/world-domination-201.html), I hope that CNR is successful, for the sake of Linux.

It's not about Microsoft, Linspire or anybody, but for the fact that for Linux to have a chance at beating Microsoft, we got to have a better interoperability with all things Windows.

Yes, I know what I've said is a taboo, but realistically that is what must be done.

Most people won't care that OpenOffice can't open Word file correctly because of Microsoft insistence on keeping things incompatible or that they can't play a Windows Media File on Linux because it is proprietary format, they would just shrug off and go back to Windows.

If you ever tried to convince other people (especially those who are computer illiterate) to use Linux, you know what I'm talking about.

If CNR means that in the future we'll see a better interoperability and, as a result, more people using Linux, then I'm all for it. Even if I won't use it that much or at all.

Yes, I know that most proprietary format sucks, royally. I myself have try to use as little proprietary format as possible. But since that is what most people use, if you want more people to use Linux, then you have no choice but to support these formats. Until most people turn over to the light and start using open formats, we simply have no choice.

Remember people, the important thing is to get more people to use Linux.

I don't say that we'll have to sell our soul or anything, and I don't see why just providing a choice for people who want to use a proprietary solution is a bad idea, or wrong.

As one person in this thread mentioned, if you don't want to use it, then don't and good for you. There are a lot of people who are forced to use proprietary solutions and for these people there's simply no choice.

Even I'm forced to have a copy of MS Office lying around because my University use MS Office and students are suppose to send in paper in MS Office .doc format. My TA won't listen or care if he can't open my .doc file from OpenOffice correctly, he would just simply mark me down. :mad:

Yes, Microsoft and their FUD campaign sucks, big time. But remember, if you boycott CNR or Lindspire, then the winner is Microsoft, not us. Fighting among ourself will bring nothing in the end.

Remember, CNR is just another choice for Linux user, and having choices is what makes Linux great. :D

Tux Aubrey
July 31st, 2007, 05:16 AM
Friendly naming shown alongside normal package name.

I'd love to see that in Synaptic. None of the other stuff interests me that much I'm afraid.

I just don't see CNR as the "Great Leap Forward" that others clearly do and the fact that it comes from Linspire means I would think three times before I did use it anyway. And then, not.

But to be clear, the fact that I choose to boycott something does not mean I would actively advocate others doing so. I boycott Microsoft, ATI, several drug and forestry companies, several species of wild-caught fish, my local video store and my national telecommunication carrier too, But that does not mean I go out and encourage others to do so. If people ask, I just tell them why I won't give those companies or products my money.

Those who really want CNR should definitely use it.

vexorian
July 31st, 2007, 05:24 AM
Remember people, the important thing is to get more people to use Linux

To use Linux, that Open source kernel with the community driven projects.

Not to a silly attempt at making a windows clone that costs you money a percentage of which goes to MS and then when you purchase it you are disallowed by microsoft to distribute or modiffy and then it makes you most likely to get sued.

I'd rather see Linux die 1000 times than MSLinux becoming succesful.



Even I'm forced to have a copy of MS Office lying around because my University use MS Office and students are suppose to send in paper in MS Office .doc format. My TA won't listen or care if he can't open my .doc file from OpenOffice correctly, he would just simply mark me down.


Seriously, the interoperability agreements don't solve anything, if in order to succeed we need to pay royalties to MS just so they let us use their formats, we have lost, gaining users from that method would be meaningless , sure Linux would get more users but it would not be open anymore, proprietary garbage and software patents would have won.



Yes, Microsoft and their FUD campaign sucks, big time. But remember, if you boycott CNR or Lindspire, then the winner is Microsoft, not us. Fighting among ourself will bring nothing in the end.


I don't see Linspire or Novell as part of ourselves, I see them as companies that were bought by Microsoft, and if they are boycotted, MS loses.

-----
What's exactly a friendly name? In synaptic the abiword package is called "abiword", etc, etc etc.

aysiu
July 31st, 2007, 05:27 AM
I'd love to see that in Synaptic. None of the other stuff interests me that much I'm afraid. Add/Remove seems pretty good on that front.

steven8
July 31st, 2007, 05:51 AM
CNR doesn't interest me in the least.

Tux Aubrey
July 31st, 2007, 05:52 AM
Add/Remove seems pretty good on that front.

Absolutely - if that standard of description could be translated to Synaptic, it would be (almost) perfect. Add/Remove has a pretty limited coverage.

I spent an hour this morning trying to find the right "build" and "header" files (those were the instructions) to complete a VirtualBox install of a new distro - None of the descriptions were in any way helpful and I ended up installing several files before I hit the right ones.

One of my favourite Synaptic descriptions is the one for build-essential:


informational list of build-essential packages
If you do not plan to build Debian packages, you don't need this
package. Moreover this package is not required for building Debian
packages.

This package contains an informational list of packages which are
considered essential for building Debian packages. This package also
depends on the packages on that list, to make it easy to have the
build-essential packages installed.

If you have this package installed, you only need to install whatever
a package specifies as its build-time dependencies to build the
package. Conversely, if you are determining what your package needs
to build-depend on, you can always leave out the packages this
package depends on.

This package is NOT the definition of what packages are
build-essential; the real definition is in the Debian Policy Manual.
This package contains merely an informational list, which is all
most people need. However, if this package and the manual disagree,
the manual is correct.

It hurt my brain to read that. (It was not, apparently, the right package to get Guest Additions working in VBox.. But I didn't know that until I installed it.)

aysiu
July 31st, 2007, 06:02 AM
Is a friendly description of build-essential really necessary? What kinds of users use build-essential?

reyfer
July 31st, 2007, 06:15 AM
From www.cnr.com/faq.html (I have placed in bold the items that I feel are noteworthy and possibly true differences):



Whether or not they will deliver all of this, I don't know. But if they do, I think it will be beneficial for the Linux novice to intermediate user. Highly technical users probably won't have much use for many of these features, but I bet their mothers would...

My grandmother is 85 years old, and she uses Linux. She's been using Debian AND Synaptic for two years now. Please don't generalize. If your mother needs CNR, fine, but don't judge my mother or anybody else's mothers based on that.

After clearing that, I ask again, what is so special about CNR? Wouldn't it be better if you ask the devs to put "this or that" feature on Synaptic? It works, and works extremely well. It is easy to use. And it does not make my machine look like a poor windows clone.

Tux Aubrey
July 31st, 2007, 06:34 AM
Is a friendly description of build-essential really necessary? What kinds of users use build-essential?

Good point,aysiu. And I wasn't trying to rubbish Synaptic (I actually think it is brilliant) - but packages like "build-essential" do crop up quite a bit in How-Tos and replies to questions on these forums.


Results 1 - 10 of about 22,000 from ubuntuforums.org for "build-essential"

even excluding this post, that's about 21,999 Google Hits.

Anyway, sorry to get off topic. Back to CNR!

Frak
July 31st, 2007, 06:50 AM
Good point,aysiu. And I wasn't trying to rubbish Synaptic (I actually think it is brilliant) - but packages like "build-essential" do crop up quite a bit in How-Tos and replies to questions on these forums.

Then we will be here to give them

sudo echo
sudo aptitude update && sudo aptitude install build-essential checkinstall && cd ~/folder/ && ./configure && make && sudo make install && sudo checkinstall (file)

aysiu
July 31st, 2007, 07:07 AM
I won't deny that people get advised to install build-essential often, but if they're advised to install it, they're usually told to paste this command into the terminal:
sudo apt-get install build-essential Rarely will someone find build-essential browsing through Synaptic.

forrestcupp
July 31st, 2007, 02:15 PM
Add/Remove seems pretty good on that front.

Add/Remove seems pretty nice, but I've noticed that it has software titles missing that are in Synaptic. I don't remember what they were, but I noticed it at the time.

Still, you can't hardly beat it for new people. Anyone who says it's hard to install things in Linux is crazy. Unless they are talking about some non-standard small project out there somewhere.

The main thing interesting about CNR is the review feature. I checked reviews all the time at download.com when I was on Windows. It's invaluable to be able to see what other people's experiences are with a certain software, and to have it all centralized in one location.

Alexander2007
August 5th, 2007, 05:11 PM
CNR 4 Ubuntu,openSUSE,Fedora Core and Debian is coming soon

Link: www.cnr.com

So anyway how excited are you about this?

I actually have it but it does not work.

Not a fan of Linspire, not a fan of CNR.
Add/Remove + Synaptic are fine for me.

Frak
August 5th, 2007, 07:14 PM
Well I just checked, and Debian is the first OS they are rolling out for. Ubuntu Feisty is last. At least they're doing something though.