[SOLVED] FIRST Robotics to support linux?

[Keen101]

I have been in contact with Thelma Meyer from FIRST, and she has told me that FIRST is seriously considering to support Linux users.

That is all good news in it's self, and I am glad to hear it. But, I am requesting help from the Ubuntu/Programming community. I think FIRST needs a"little push" to get them started. They need to really know that people want them to support Linux and an open source alternative to the Microchip software they provide.

Since FIRST is for students interested in Science and Technology, I think Linux support is absolutely necessary. If it is not provided, I believe this is stunting the learning experience for everyone interested in Linux.

Now I am posting here, because I am trying to put together a "petition" for first to support Linux and an' open source alternative to the microchip software. I would like to hear from anyone who is willing to sign the "petition".

I would also like to hear from anyone interested in helping to program the Open Source Programming software.

If people were willing to help program, I think that would pretty much close the deal. FIRST would see that it IS possible to support Linux, and perhaps even easier that Windows and MAC.

Thanks, and I hope to hear from a lot of people.

-Andrew Barney
-Keen101


oh, p.s. here is the response I received:

Hello Andrew,
> Thank you for drafting a question with such a positive, comprehensive
> request and reasoning. We have heard from the FRC Director who says
> that they are actually in the process of evaluating this option for the
> future. I don't have a time line for the length of discussion, but I
> assume that teams will hear something once a decision has been made. If
> you think too much time lapses without comment, please use this e-mail
> to reply with further questions.
>
> Again, thank you for your thoughtful suggestion. We appreciate hearing
> from our teams.
> Thelma
>
>
> Thelma Pedersen Meyer
> Operations Coordinator-Team Support
>
> FIRST (For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology)
> 200 Bedford Street,
> Manchester, NH 03101
>
> tmeyer@usfirst.org <mailto:tmeyer@usfirst.org>
>
> Phone: 603-666-3906, Ext. 431, 800-871-8326, Ext: 431
> Fax: 603-666-3907
> http://www.usfirst.org

[hod139]

I participated in the early years of FIRST (it was called US FIRST back then) when I was in high school. I'll sign the petition, but my time is too scarce at the moment to help with any programming.

[pmasiar]

My son wanted to participate in FIRST last year, but then we found option as good, and much cheaper: WPI Soccer (http://users.wpi.edu/~savage/). It is a robotic game using VEX kits, where registration is like $10 per team. Almost free. Last year, they had multiple tournaments, in like 3 areas(biggest one in MA).

VEX kit is cheaper, you can use other parts if you want, and competition is free -- they do it for fun (for WPI students), not for profit. WPI even has week-long summer program for kids to try it out.

[Tomosaur]

I'm not sure I understand what FIRST actually is? It sounds to me like it's simply a competition or something, in which case, how do they have any control over what participants use? Or do FIRST actually provide software or something for students to use to create the logic for their robots / machines? If they do not provide software, then I see no reason why we can't already just create our own 'robo-toolkit'. If they DO provide software, then yes, I think it would be a great idea for them to support Linux, particularly given the ethos and goals of FIRST. Linux IS the best platform out there for the kind of people FIRST targets - ie, inquisitive, experimental people interested in technology.

[Keen101]

I will try to explain as best I can. www.usfirst.org

Vision
"To create a world where science and technology are celebrated... where young people dream of becoming science and technology heroes"

-Dean Kamen, Founder

Mission
FIRST designs accessible, innovative programs that build not only science and technology skills and interests, but also self-confidence, leadership, and life skills.

Now, FIRST has a couple different competitions involving Robotics such as FRC, VEX, LEGO LEAGUE, etc. The one I am focusing is the FRC or FIRST Robotics Competiton. They provide a "starter-kit" which includes most of the elctronics, chasis, and various other items that could be useful in completing whatever the task is for that year. These robots are programed in Assembly or C as of now, but in the future they will have the option of being programmed in multiple languages.

They currently provide MPLAB Microchip software for programming (Windows only), and a new "easy c" programming software.

http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1406&dDocName=en019469&part=SW007002
http://www.intelitekdownloads.com/easyCPRO/

there is also an IFI Loader which is used to upload the HEX file into the robot.

http://www.ifirobotics.com/rc.shtml

[Keen101]

The VEX competition is also limited to the "easy c" software.

I am hoping to find people willing to help program an open source software "suite" that could program the robots for the FRC competiton as well as VEX and be able to upload the code like the IFI loader software.

also, if there are people who cannot help program I would at least apreciate anyone willing to sign a "petition" of sorts to show FIRST that we want an open source and linux option.


-keen101

[smartbei]

I participated in FIRST this year, (First place in the Israeli Regional), and I would really like linux to be supported. The software that we used was terrible and buggy (easyC), and caused various glitches. The program had to be restarted every half an hour or so.

MPLab was another option, but I was the only one that knew c well enough. A good Linux program would be great.

[Keen101]

Currently the only way to use the software they provided is with wine. (YUK!)

1. WINE
2. MCC18 from Microchip -- it runs under WINE
3. IFI Makefile -- see http://adambots-live.sourceforge.net/
4. Picloader: http://sf.net/projects/ifi-picloader
__________________
John Dong
Co-Captain, Webmaster / Programmer
Team 245 -- Rochester Adams Robotics

Even some Windows programmers I know would like an open source alternative.

hopefully we should soon have a "petition" going around soon on the http://adambots.com/ website.

[Keen101]

Ok, here is the "petition".

http://adambots.gotdns.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=623

Please sign it!


Thanks,

-keen101

..... But, I suppose If you don't want to sign up on the previous site, then I suppose you could just provide the following info here:

1. Name
2. way to contact you
3. a neat little sentence about why you would like FIRST to support open source/Linux.

[nitro_n2o]

petition signed :)
I don't know how can i help with this, but it sounds great to spread the use of linux and encourage the Open Source philosophy.
But, doing this with linux will require users to be familiar to some extent with Linux. Not only how to use Linux, but also how to troubleshoot, debug..etc) You are talking about programming robots and stuff must break at some point (natural). FIRST must have some really good programmers and they can build software to run in linux natively. However, the question is: r they welling to teach people Linux and especially high school students who are dying to see their robots doing something???
And wht if it turns out to be that code compiled in Linux is faster than windows code??? highschool windows kids will certainly dislike that..

Anyways, this sounds really great if the guys in FIRST are really welling to make the change :)
good luck

[hod139]

I'd rather not sign up at the other site. Also, why do you need so much personal information for a petition? I think that will turn people away from signing. Lastly, I thought I was simply signing a petition, not writing a description of what I want. I don't know what I want, I was signing it for you.

Name: Steve Berard
Email: sberard@cs.rpi.edu
Description: The aim of open source software, such as GNU/Linux, is to let the product be more understandable, modifiable, and easily duplicated. These goals align with the philosophy of FIRST, and serious attention should be made to supporting open source alternatives.

[pmasiar]

FIRST looks like (or behaves like) for-profit organization, and competing there is rather expensive.

[hod139]

FIRST is not-for-profit, but yes their robotics competition it is very expensive. Typically it is high school students competing, and they are sponsored by companies or colleges and the school.

[Keen101]

Ok, so i don't need all of that info. It was just an idea of what might be useful or normally used on a petition.

I guess all that would be helpful would be:

1. Name
2. way to contact you
3. a neat little sentence about why you would like FIRST to support open source/Linux.



also, FIRST is a non-profit orginization. They even have non-profit status. The reason the fees are so expensive, is so they can cover the cost of the kit of parts, and other things FIRST does, like finding new places to open regionals. (they have one in israel I think).

oh, and thanks for anyone who has signed!

[DarkW0lf]

Linux experience isn't needed for FIRST, all you have to provide is an interface and the students would work only with that interface. I use an Agilent SpecAn at work that is based on a linux platform and there is no need to have any background in linux to use it. Noone even knew it was linux till I told them.

MPLAB isn't that bad, I have used it to upload pics and microprocessors and works rather well for that. All you need is a decent assembler and upload the code. Maybe mix GAS and MPLAB.

Type LEGO in synaptic search and you get an alternate OS, maybe you can get them started with that.

[Keen101]

no, Linux is not needed with FIRST, but there are students like me who WANT to use Linux and/or Open Source software. Sure MPLAB is fine for some, and that's great.

What I am saying is that I would like to stimulate my learning experience a little more. There are some who would like to program the robot natively in Linux. Most who want to, find that it is almost out of the way, and tedious to use the software provided under wine.

Not to be mean or anything, but if there is no Linux option with FIRST, then effectively that is hindering some participants experiences.

what some of you don't understand is that I am one of the students who WANTS to use Linux. I am already involved in FIRST. I am not a teacher looking for viable programming techniques to teach his students. I am not trying to find a alternative to FIRST that is easier on the budget.

For the most part I have been happy with my FIRST experience. But, I feel as if my learning curve is being held back. I, and others feel that we cannot effectively participate in FIRST as we would ultimately like to.

[Keen101]

It is becoming more and more aware to me that very few share my view and optimism.

I was hoping to be able to have freedom of choice. But, perhaps I should give up my request to FIRST.



and although I hate to say it, it appears that Windows and Proprietary software has won.

[loell]

ahhh... the frustration ;)

while i am with you on that, don't be so discouraged.

you have no control over the organization that held this robotic competition , perhaps there will be linux option in the coming years, and perhaps your future son can participate then :)

[pmasiar]

It is becoming more and more aware to me that very few share my view and optimism.

I was hoping to be able to have freedom of choice. But, perhaps I should give up my request to FIRST.

and although I hate to say it, it appears that Windows and Proprietary software has won.

I am optimistic about free software but not blind to profit motive companies are required to have by law and common sense. :-)

FIRST is for-profit company which even does not allow to use in competition spare building blocks you have from your old erector set - you are required to buy all parts from FIRST only (and they are more expensive than from erector - and *not compatible*), and then pay expensive registration, just to participate. Why would they bother to support free software?

You are experiencing vendor lock-in, and willing to pay for the privilege. So, pay and pray! :-)

[Keen101]

You are required to buy the MAIN parts from FIRSt. That is only to keep things fair for all teams. As for extra stuff.... My team has used plenty of things not from FIRST. ...just so long as they fit within the rules.



...as for not being discouraged.... what should I do? Should I keep in my efforts to fight for freedom?

[wolf08]

I'll pipe in here with my support. My team (Blake Robotics http://bearbotics.org) is just getting started this year, and as one of our main programmers I would love to have software available for linux.

I'm probably going to end up using the WINE solution - UGH!

As a side note, does anyone know if I can use a C++ compiler for the PIC chip and then program in C++ rather than C? Is that against the rules?

[smartbei]

@wolf08:
I participated in FRC 2007 (First prize Israel regional :D) and from what I understand of the rules - you can program however you want. They support only MPLab and easyC, but if you find another way to program the controller, more power to you. Most of the major teams use MPLab.

For this application, I believe C is more appropriate - you want to be close to the metal since you have rather limited processing power.

One last recommendation regarding FIRST - Autonomous mode is by far the most important mode to work on - learning wise. If you want to win, forget about it unless you have plenty of time left at the end, or if you build two robots (again, the thing to do if you want to win - but hard for a beginning team).

Good luck with the project!

[Keen101]

FYI, I kinda gave up on the petition idea. But, I'm planning to still write a letter to "FIRST Headquarters" and at least make the issue known.


again, thanks for all of everyones support/interest.

...and about Autonomous mode .... try looking into Autoflex...

[SirPerigrin]

My FIRST Team would also be willing to help support this effort in any way we can, we are an avid group of D programmers and Linux enthusiast all. At the moment we exclusivly use linux with the programming software in a VirtualBox Virtual Machine. However we would obviously love to see a fully FOSS linux alternative, the licensing restriction forces 4 programmers to work on a single machine, far from efficient!

[cesiel1990]

Team 245 and I would also like to see more linux support.

[Keen101]

OK, everyone I have completed my second draft of the letter I will be sending off to FIRST. Again, I thank anyone who is willing to help out.

I would like to put specific Teams and where they are located in the letter. This may help the cause a great deal by providing tangible people to associate with FIRST Linux users.

If everyone could give me their Team Number, and place where they live it would be appreciated.

It may be nice to also include signatures as well. It may be hard to ship the letter to teams though. (especially Israel) But, perhaps people could sign a piece of paper with a small sentence of their desire, and then scan and email me a copy.



...also, if anyone would like to proofread a copy of my drafted letter, then don't hesitate to email me at keen101 [at] gmail [dot] com

[Keen101]

Well, I finally shipped my letter to FIRST, so i guess we will see if anything develops from this.

If anyone wants to help out still, and really would like FIRST to support an official Linux software version... I recommend emailing and mailing FIRST with your desires as well. The squeaky wheel get the oil.

[Keen101]

Here is a copy of my letter for those who want to read it.





Team Support
FIRST (For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology)
200 Bedford Street
Manchester, NH 03101


To whom it may concern,




During the past three years I have had an awesome and life-changing experience gained through participating in the FIRST Robotics Competition (FRC) program. I would have never dreamed that I would be able to learn about and work on robots and electronics throughout my high school years. For me it has been a experience that I know is currently found nowhere else in the world. Through FIRST, students are given an opportunity to work on real world engineering applications and designs while building leadership, public relations, and teamwork skills. Most are even able to learn from real world engineers and are able to collaborate with some of the greatest scientific minds of our time. I am proud to say that I have participated in the FIRST FRC program, and have been able to learn from it.

I would, however, like to help contribute back. I would like to make a suggestion that will hopefully influence and shape the FIRST of the future, by bringing to point something that has been bothering me lately. During the last two years I have also found a community that very closely resembles FIRST in some ways. That is the Linux and Open Source community. They have a philosophy that basically incorporates the idea that everyone should have an equal footing and an equal opportunity as everyone else. That every computer user should have the freedom to download, run, copy, distribute, study, share, change and improve their software; that every computer user should be able to use their software in the language of their choice; that every computer user should be given every opportunity to use software, even if they work under a disability. The two keywords that stand out to me are opportunity and freedom.

I have come to love the Linux community. For me it is a community that is about sharing and letting anyone join in; a community largely without bias and without prejudice. It's a community that helps foster my imagination much like FIRST has. Specifically I have joined the Ubuntu Linux community that goes by a philosophy that is captured in its name. Ubuntu is an African word meaning “humanity toward others”. I think that word captures the Linux community very well. In some way's it seems very similar to the “Gracious Professionalism” philosophy that FIRST tries so very hard to convey. I am very proud to participate in these two communities that share many philosophies and ideas.

I am writing for some specific reasons though. I am writing because there seems to be a disadvantage for FIRST members who do not use Microsoft Windows. There is no easy way to program FRC robots in alternative operating systems, or in alternative ways. There currently doesn't appear to be any Linux compatible software for those wishing to participate in the best way that they can. There are some ways to work around this, but they either take a great deal of work, or are legally controversial.



I feel that not having an option for Linux users stifles creativity and creates obstacles. It doesn't seem to fit with FIRST's Mission Statement that “FIRST designs accessible, innovative programs that build not only science and technology skills and interests, but also self-confidence, leadership, and life skills.” It doesn't seem to be easily accessible to non-Windows users. If it were, it would certainly promote the building of life skills, since Linux and other operating systems are highly used in the “real world”. There are also schools excluded from participating, simply because they have a lack of financial resources. In order for everyone to be able to participate, FIRST needs to aim for the lowest common denominator. Everyone CAN have Linux if they want. Not everyone can afford Windows.

I propose that FIRST create an open source alternative to the MPLB Compiler, and IFI Loader packages. It seems greatly unfair to force teams into using proprietary software. If there was an open source option, it could be made available to Windows, Mac, AND Linux users. There are many advantages to using an open source method. One of the best advantages is that FIRST really wouldn't have to maintain the software, but just get it started. The open source community would take on most of the work. Another great advantage of an open source option is that the software can be programmed easily for native Language support. This could effectively open up new areas to FIRST where few people speak English.

Maybe an open source alternative is not an option for FIRST. Maybe FIRST does not have the time or resources to pursue such an option. I'm not exactly sure where FIRST stands on this matter. I have been talking to many users on Chief Delphi, and have received feedback on their opinions. Some simply cannot see FIRST pursuing an open source option, for various reasons. Some propose that FIRST work with corporate sponsors, to seek a more open alternative to the MPLAB Compiler. And claim that all they really need is a “mostly complete compiler that needs to be 100% finished and Linux compatible.”

I sincerely hope that FIRST considers my suggestion for a Linux / Open Source option. I am even willing to be a Linux / Open Source contact for FIRST. I can help FIRST gain contact and support within the Linux community if needed. Feel free to email me at anytime. Keen101 [at] gmail [dot] com

There may not be many FIRST non-Windows users right now, but there are more growing demographically each year. I have been in some contact with at least one team from Israel, Teams 68 , 190, 245 , 288, 1189 , 1549 from Michigan, Team 1317 from Ohio, Teams 0011, and 1676 from New Jersey, Team 1164 from New Mexico, Teams 694, 358, and 1567 from New York, Team 997 from Oregon, Team 2158 from Texas, Team 868 from Indiana, and Team 971 from California. All of which would be interested in an official open source or Linux option.

May the future of FIRST be open to all.

Sincerely,

Andrew Barney
Loveland, Colorado
Team 1357

[days_of_ruin]

The VEX competition is also limited to the "easy c" software.

I am hoping to find people willing to help program an open source software "suite" that could program the robots for the FRC competiton as well as VEX and be able to upload the code like the IFI loader software.

also, if there are people who cannot help program I would at least apreciate anyone willing to sign a "petition" of sorts to show FIRST that we want an open source and linux option.


-keen101

I am in the vex one(its called FTC now) and the software is just
overpriced crap.Just getting it to run is a headache.Easy C tries to be so noob friendly that its not friendly to anyone.You can only install it on one pc too so its very windowsish too.Its a good thing
the autonomous part of the competition is short because almost everyone has trouble with it.:mad::mad:

[days_of_ruin]

wow nice letter:guitar:

[Keen101]

Thanks. I really tried to make it as comprehensive and friendly as possible.

and at the same time to make a lasting impression.

I hope i succeeded. :)

[days_of_ruin]

Well the company that makes vex robotics which is used in one of the FIRST competitions will be supporting linux (and mac).
Check this outhttp://www.vexforum.com/showthread.php?t=2377
download the pdf.

Sadly I heard that FIRST wont be using vex after this years competition;_;

[Keen101]

Well, It seems like my hard work may have paid off. :guitar:

I don't want to get ahead of myself, but judging from the reply I got from FIRST, it sounds like Linux may be supported in 2009, with the new control systems.

here is the reply I got:

"Andrew, I want to say thanks!! Both for your interest in the future of
the FRC program and your insight on the Linux support. FIRST strives to
address the needs of the teams while providing the best possible
coverage of tools and technology. I will forward your feedback to the
team developing the next generation control system.

Again, thank you for taking the time to provide FIRST with a fresh
perspective.

Chris Jennings"

[Keen101]

whoo hoo!

http://first.wpi.edu/2009_FRC_Controller_FAQ_FINAL.pdf

Looks like FIRST is at the very least aware of Open Source.

"Q Is it open-source?
A The library code that interfaces with the hardware is all open source and will be available to teams.
There will be a procedure for teams to submit changes and improvements to the library. In
addition there will be a repository of custom team code for teams that want to share their work
with other teams.

Q Will there be a ‘default code’ to help teams get started?
A There will be a default program in all languages to assist teams in getting started. In addition there
will be many sample programs that teams can use for resources in developing their own robot
programs.

Q Are there alternative compilers that will be compatible with the hardware?
A Currently, the WindRiver Complier is planned and provides an impressive debug and user interface
for program development and debug.

Q Where can I go for help? What will I do when there is a problem at competition?
A That would depend on the assistance needed. Teams will be able to access all training via the
usfirst.org website. Here teams can find training materials to download as well as links to the NI
FIRST Community site (http://www.ni.com/community/first) and WPI’s FIRST Technical Network
(http://first.wpi.edu). In time for the 2009 season, both sites will be open-sourced allowing teams
to post what they’ve learned to help all teams in the FIRST Community. FIRST will provide onsite
assistance on the new control system at every regional competition and is continuing to work to
find external sources to assist in the development of team training and system introduction
materials."


Glad I helped shaped the future of FIRST.

-Andrew
(keen101)

[CaptainLinux94]

I've always been interested in a robitics a bit myself... If FIRST came to linux, maybe I'd be able to explore robotics a bit more.

I support FIRST's supporting of linux. (if that makes sense...)

[pmasiar]

But is WindRiver compiler free? And why not use free compilers like everyone else? I don't think they get what is free software about. After all, they are just for-profit competitions.

We compete in Savage soccer (http://users.wpi.edu/~savage/), run by WPI students, $10 entry fee per team, and we can use cheap parts from erector set as addition to $300 main set. More and cheaper fun that way :-)

[Keen101]

But is WindRiver compiler free? And why not use free compilers like everyone else? I don't think they get what is free software about. After all, they are just for-profit competitions.


hmm... I'm not sure if they quite get the idea. They probably don't get the full idea. But, at least it's progress i suppose. Hopefully it will foster something better in the future.

as for the part about being for-profit... I do not agree. They use the money to rent spaces for regionals and the championship, and other expenses. They have actual government approved non profit status.

[modmadmike]

Well, I have the discs for the FIRST 2009 competition and they dont even work in WINE let alone native linux. Both of the software Products used in this year have linux versions but there is no way for me to get them because the sites have no way for me to download them and use the product key my team has. I rely wish it would work out because i bring my laptop every day but is is useless because it is not tainted by windows :(.

[modmadmike]

Well, I have the discs for the FIRST 2009 competition and they dont even work in WINE let alone native linux. Both of the software Products used in this year have linux versions but there is no way for me to get them because the sites have no way for me to download them and use the product key my team has. I rely wish it would work out because i bring my laptop every day but is is useless because it is not tainted by windows :(.

oh and im from team 1807

[Keen101]

Well, since nobody has gotton the official kit this year yet, i'm going to say that i'm not worried. FIRST has said several times that the WINDRIVER tools are also available for linux. I'm not sure if we have to buy the linux version (i'm assuming not), but they might still be working out some bugs.

I'm not going to worry about it. It will all get sorted out soon enough. If not, hopefully enough people will complain.

I'm going to mark this as solved. FIRST is starting to really support Open Source. They seem to finally be realizing how the Open Source philosophies can help the FIRST Robotics environment flourish. Maybe not Linux specific, but certainly Linux friendly (which is what i was aiming for with my letter).

I am going to consider my open letter a success!! :D :D :D

Just watch this video. He mentions Open source several times and with a smile. http://first.wpi.edu/FRC/frccon325.html

http://first.wpi.edu/Images/CMS/First/dean_smaller.swf
------------------------------------------------------------------

edit:

Linux FRC LabVIEW has to be specifically requested.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=562456&postcount=9

not sure about the WindRiver tools, but someone is working on getting the WPI libraries to work with Eclipse which i hear is basically what WindRiver is. I already have Eclipse installed, so that would be great if he can pull it off.

[werries]

Man, this would be great. I would then have extra computers for my team! (greetings from 2619).
Now that we have the kit and everything...whats the plan?
I'll talk with my team about requesting LabView for linux and maybe we can get it quickly enough to allow me to help out.
Please keep this thread updated, I'd like to see WindRiver for linux, which I think is what we'll be using for the most part.

[Keen101]

well, umm... there is a guy making progress on getting the makefile to run under linux. It's not quite the windriver suite under linux, but a makefile is at least something.....


http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70449&highlight=linux