Windows is a system, and that system is our enemy

[phrostbyte]

http://www.cypherbios.org/blog/?language=en

Sorry for the possibly obnoxious thread title. :)

But I think this blog post is correct. How do you fight the attiude described in his blog?

[Peyton]

Well, keep in mind that most users (and I include myself in this group) do not see MIcrosoft as evil. Too many people try to convert Windows users by attempting to force the whole free software philosophy on them, but they fail to realize that most people don't care. People just want software that works and is easy. Period.

[phrostbyte]

Well, keep in mind that most users (and I include myself in this group) do not see MIcrosoft as evil. Too many people try to convert Windows users by attempting to force the whole free software philosophy on them, but they fail to realize that most people don't care. People just want software that works and is easy. Period.

That's really not the point of his post, I think - Ubuntu works and is easy to use (imo, but those are opinions anyway you put it)

[RobN]

That's really not the point of his post, I think - Ubuntu works and is easy to use (imo, but those are opinions anyway you put it)
But you're using polarizing words and examples, which cannot help but put most Windows users on the defensive. If I perceive that you're attacking me -- whether that's your intent or not -- then I'm not going to listen rationally to any argument you make. You've already lost, as soon as it seems that you're making an attack (and comparing Windows users to the denizens of the Matrix certainly seems like an attack). Often Linux "advocates" come across that way -- if you're trying to convince me I'm wrong, my natural response is to circle the wagons and defend myself.

Most people don't want to know anything about computers. They want to turn it on and have it work. They don't want to discuss whether Word is better, or WordPerfect, or OpenOffice Write -- they want to use the one that they're used to using, because it's painful to learn a new GUI (which is one reason Vista and Office 2007 are struggling right now). And they really, REALLY don't want to go hunting for drivers or directions to make things work. That's fair, really -- I don't know much about my car, but I can drive it, and even change the oil.

To continue a car analogy, changing an OS is like driving from the opposite side of the car (right if you're in the US, left if you're in the UK), with the pedals moved to the steering wheel and the turn signals controlled by your feet. Even if that is better, faster, more efficient, cheaper, and friendlier to the environment, who wants to learn all that (and un-learn the old way of doing things) if they don't have to? Until the driver is convinced they need a change, you're going to have a hard time convincing them. Sure, it can be done -- ask any used car dealer -- but then, how many people end up truly happy with their used car purchase after such tactics?

[PatrickMay16]

And linux is an enemy of itself. Gnome vs KDE, blahblahblah. Cannot open sound device, etc. Read the (complicated and sometimes incomplete/outdated/poorly written/nonexistant) manuals, yadayada. No disk space: cannot start kde/gnome, and so on.

Linux is far from user friendly at this moment. Even if it has come a long way, it still has too many fundamental flaws to be a desktop operating system for the man who will buy a computar from PC WORLD.

[needtolookatascreenshot]

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=519877

[vwbeamer]

Hmmmm, i've been using 7.04 for about three weeks and no problems, and Dell is offering it on new PCs


I think you are wrong,

Linux is clearly a Superior OS. Especially for surfing the web.

Lets look-
Cost. Linux wins
Security -Linux wins
Speed- Linux wins
Ease of use-tie
aplications- Linux wins, 1000 Of FREE programs. plus can run many window programs.


Linux user will grow, I always discounted it until I tried it. It was not until I got a virus on my PC( despite firewalls, virus protection, etc) that I started investigating other OS.

[phrostbyte]

And linux is an enemy of itself. Gnome vs KDE, blahblahblah. Cannot open sound device, etc. No disk space: cannot start kde/gnome, and so on.

Linux is far from user friendly at this moment. Even if it has come a long way, it still has too many fundamental flaws to be a desktop operating system for the man who will buy a computar from PC WORLD.

You know, I wouldda have agreed with you a year ago. But I completely disagree now. Linux (especially Ubuntu) IS **ready** for the mainstream desktop. It's so ready it's sickening. Really, my job (as a sysadmin) would be 1000x easier if we all used Ubuntu. It would be so much easier, they'd prob fire me for doing nothing all day. :)

[phrostbyte]

But you're using polarizing words and examples, which cannot help but put most Windows users on the defensive. If I perceive that you're attacking me -- whether that's your intent or not -- then I'm not going to listen rationally to any argument you make. You've already lost, as soon as it seems that you're making an attack (and comparing Windows users to the denizens of the Matrix certainly seems like an attack). Often Linux "advocates" come across that way -- if you're trying to convince me I'm wrong, my natural response is to circle the wagons and defend myself.

Most people don't want to know anything about computers. They want to turn it on and have it work. They don't want to discuss whether Word is better, or WordPerfect, or OpenOffice Write -- they want to use the one that they're used to using, because it's painful to learn a new GUI (which is one reason Vista and Office 2007 are struggling right now). And they really, REALLY don't want to go hunting for drivers or directions to make things work. That's fair, really -- I don't know much about my car, but I can drive it, and even change the oil.

To continue a car analogy, changing an OS is like driving from the opposite side of the car (right if you're in the US, left if you're in the UK), with the pedals moved to the steering wheel and the turn signals controlled by your feet. Even if that is better, faster, more efficient, cheaper, and friendlier to the environment, who wants to learn all that (and un-learn the old way of doing things) if they don't have to? Until the driver is convinced they need a change, you're going to have a hard time convincing them. Sure, it can be done -- ask any used car dealer -- but then, how many people end up truly happy with their used car purchase after such tactics?

Wrong, most computer ignorent people will believe anything you say if they believe you are a computer genius/nerd. If you tell them that Linux is better then Windows, they will believe you without question! I used to work as a salesperson in Best Buy, and we used to scam people because of this nature (get them to buy all kinds of useless stuff for their computer that makes Best Buy big money). :lolflag:

It's the other (Windows nerds/power users) that go on the counterattack. If they are wrong it's a big deal, they are computer experts, how can they be wrong??!! How dare you say Windows is a bad OS, I use Windows!! I'm a COMPUTER GENIUS, you dare question what I do? etc..

[DoctorMO]

Computer users must understand that windows and Microsoft are damaging the industry and costing the economy of the world billions in lost production and money. It's sick that people can put aside such thoughts because they want to excuse their own actions and not take responsibility for what they help do to the world.

To bring that into the car analogy, if people would just support taxation we could build a better rail network, everyone would buy cycles for short trips and take them on the trains. cars are the most useless form of personal transport, yet people still use them despite damaging the environment with every liter of petrol.

It's easier to just say that people are stupid, inconsiderate and dangerous animals that would even put their own future in jeopardy in order to excuse their own actions and stay clear of personal responsibility.

[Peyton]

Linux is fine and good, but most people are used to Windows, as was stated earlier in the thread. They can generally do what they need to do. Why use KMail when Outlook Express does the same thing for them? Why make the big switch when there's no pressing reason to do so? Switching would only bring complications that otherwise would not be brought, and most people don't care to go through that.

And then there's another problem that arises:

But you're using polarizing words and examples, which cannot help but put most Windows users on the defensive.
It's absolutely true in a lot of cases. Sorry, but I don't want to be told that I am "living in a dreamworld." Similarly, most people don't want to be told that they are promoting an "evil system." Moreover, as I said earlier, they don't care. They just want software that works, and they don't care who they're getting it from.

Also:

The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. When you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of people we're trying to save, but until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand that most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inert, so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it.

[Lozz]

I read that blog post earlier today & I did think the author describes the mentality of the average computer user well. To me though it does seem to suggest that if we are to be realistic then Windows may always be dominant no matter how good the alternatives are in comparison. Unless of course the education is provided but how would one provide an effective education in Linux, I do not think web guides are enough to pull the average user away from Windows. I myself only changed system when Microsoft accused me of piracy when I asked them a question about the functionality of Vista disks through their customer enquiries department.

[PatrickMay16]

It's easier to just say that people are stupid, inconsiderate and dangerous animals that would even put their own future in jeopardy in order to excuse their own actions and stay clear of personal responsibility.

Excuse me, this is a monopoly on a computer operating system that we're talking about here. A bit of software. I think you're being a bit over the top.

[kamaboko]

It's juvenile posts like this that give Linux a bad name.

[aysiu]

I'm glad the blog entry brought up The Matrix, because Joey Pants' character betrays Keanu and all those other "good guys" very early on in the hopes of going back to "the system."

The traitor is very typical of too-hasty Linux migrations or forced migrations. No one wants to be converted. Everyone wants a choice, a real choice--not a red pill or blue pill with no turning back.

Stop trying to convert people to Linux.

It's much better (and easier) to convince people to try open source Windows applications. Once they get used to those, the migration to Linux will be easier for them to make on their own, since they'll be more trustful of open source in general, and they're more likely to be using applications that also exist in Linux (unlike Outlook Express, Adobe Photoshop, or Microsoft Office).

[lisati]

Pardon me for being pedantic: don't forget that Windows (uppercase W) is an operating system and windows (lowercase w) is an area on the screen or something we look out to see what the weather is doing....

[eljoeb]

Other than gamers, Quicken users, and people with very specific needs, Ubuntu would work fine, outside of hardware issues. There, I said it.

BUT I agree that Linux users go way overboard with the Windows sux/Bill Gates is the devil/corporations suck stuff. Your computer might be important to you, but not everyone feels this way. There are (and many people on these forums do this) positive ways to promote Linux, that do not depend on pointing out how bad Windows is. Or at least talk crap about Windows politely. A nerd complaining about something IS NOT an unusual occurrence, so it doesn't always get taken seriously. Maturity is not a characteristic of the internet, but it helps to be respectful and polite when pointing out each other's flaws.

I guess this is what I think whenever I see the daily "Windows sucks, I heart Ubuntu" thread pop up here. Its getting exhausting.

[kamaboko]

Pardon me for being pedantic: don't forget that Windows (uppercase W) is an operating system and windows (lowercase w) is an area on the screen or something we look out to see what the weather is doing....

What if they started a sentence with "windows"? For example, Windows are wonderful to look through. Does that mean they're talking about Microsoft Windows or regular windows one might have in a home?

[Adamant1988]

If you want more people to use Linux, be more like Shuttleworth. Shuttleworth is the shining star of 'Free software' because he makes people want to switch, instead of convincing them to switch.

If you want people to be scared and intimidated of free software, be more like Stallman. Keep calling Microsoft and big corporations 'evil' and keep treating this like a war. Nothing makes people want to resist you like a good ol' fashioned attack.

[JAPrufrock]

I agree with Dr. MO. MS, and monopolies like MS, should not be taken lightly. They are slowly and systematically undermining the capitalistic system. Even though many (most?) Linux distro users are unaware ot it, they are participating in an ideological war. The goals and values of MS are diametrically opposed to those of Ubuntu, as well as to those of the FSF. The danger of MS is that it's been so successful that it's the envy of other companies, not only in the software industry, but in other industries as well. The model that's being copied is this one- "create some sort of monoply, and then screw the consumer." Profit is God, and everything else is subjugated to it. I don't believe that MS is evil. Large companies tend to be amoral. However, I do believe that MS is a danger to the world. Maybe MS isn't your enemy- but it's definitely mine.

[frup]

It's much better (and easier) to convince people to try open source Windows applications. Once they get used to those, the migration to Linux will be easier for them to make on their own, since they'll be more trustful of open source in general, and they're more likely to be using applications that also exist in Linux [

This is true, but I find many people like to have the liveCD (something exciting and new not just another program), play around with it but not install. Then they forget about it or if they are serious and like it, install.

[Peyton]

[Linux users] are participating in an ideological war.

Just realize that you're not going to convert any Windows users by inviting them to join an "ideological war" against Microsoft.

[popch]

Q: Which is the system most incompatible with Windows?
A: the human nervous system

A bit more seriously. We have to realize, that the 'war' against the evil 'windows' system is fought on several 'fronts':

One: the 'user as such', i.e. the person who buys a computer, the OS and presumably some applications wich make the whole thing useful, for his own use (or for the use of the members of his family and such).

If we can demonstrate to those 'decision makers' that they can have a 'more satisfying computing experience' (or a cheaper one) when using 'other brands' of operating systems, they will switch - eventually.

Two: the 'corporate buyer'.

Those should realize that the 'enemy' is not Windows but Microsoft. Their aim is not to anger us poor Ubuntites by pushing badly written software (it is not) but simply to sell as much software as they possibly can.

One of their strategies consists - of course - in placing Windows on as many computers as they possibly can. This is a sure way to generate further sales of other software titles, some of them by MS.

Another strategy consists of subverting or avoiding industry standards in favor of ad-hoc speficiations of their own products; in other words, make it for anyone as difficult as possible to write a piece of software which interacts in any way with your own product. In some cases, they are so uncannily successful with this strategy that not even their own software will work with some of their products.

The third strategy consists in preventing the software from running until it is suffiently proven that it is licensed and paid for. Obviously, the more you invest in your software being unable to run, the more successful you will be in this respect.

What actions are possible to the corporate buyer:

Obviously, simply saying 'no' to buying Windows will not work in every case.

The secret lies in not 'opposing' Windows or Microsoft just for opposition's sake, but in optimizing your own profit with each buying decision you make or influence.

Simple, huh?

[dca]

It's inconsequential, really...

In a couple years MS will make running Linux distro(s) in the US illegal unless you have a valid license (purchased through Xandros, Linspire, Novell, Dell, or any one of our subsidiaries) and are using it in an enterprise data center setting.

[@trophy]

It's inconsequential, really...

In a couple years MS will make running Linux distro(s) in the US illegal unless you have a valid license (purchased through Xandros, Linspire, Novell, Dell, or any one of our subsidiaries) and are using it in an enterprise data center setting.

LOL I see your favorite distro is Tin Foil Hat...

[phrostbyte]

Other than gamers, Quicken users, and people with very specific needs, Ubuntu would work fine, outside of hardware issues. There, I said it.

BUT I agree that Linux users go way overboard with the Windows sux/Bill Gates is the devil/corporations suck stuff. Your computer might be important to you, but not everyone feels this way. There are (and many people on these forums do this) positive ways to promote Linux, that do not depend on pointing out how bad Windows is. Or at least talk crap about Windows politely. A nerd complaining about something IS NOT an unusual occurrence, so it doesn't always get taken seriously. Maturity is not a characteristic of the internet, but it helps to be respectful and polite when pointing out each other's flaws.

I guess this is what I think whenever I see the daily "Windows sucks, I heart Ubuntu" thread pop up here. Its getting exhausting.


But Windows does suck. I've been using it for 10+ years. It really truely is a bad operating system. I would love to be patronizing to it, but doing so would just be a lie.

We really need a change. The computing industry needs a change in the status quo to move foward. I truely see that change in Linux. We are living not unlike the technologists of the early 1900s. We need to put the Windows way of doing things to rest and start building the future.

[DoctorMO]

Excuse me, this is a monopoly on a computer operating system that we're talking about here. A bit of software. I think you're being a bit over the top.

Software is a very serious issue, it hails back to the days of the Jacquard loom; You can't have a few people in the world controlling the automation and foundation for technological progress for an entire society. You asking for a world of hurt and to act so candidly about real world issues proves my point about making excuses for your own actions. Or in this case what it might be is that your attempting some false sense of fairness, attempting to create yourself an island of middle ground that really doesn't exist.

Your right it is just software, software that runs banks, company infrastructure, atms, vending machines, point of sales systems, telecoms networks, clock radios, mobile phones, personal computers, internet servers, production robots; there is a serious amount of business and social services built on computer software, but that's alright cos you say it's not important.

The only answer is that any company that attempts to control an entire industry sector should be brought to it's knees by buying power before the monopoly and by government e afterwards. Unfortunately it's the only way to defend against abuses in a capitalist society.

[kamaboko]

I agree with Dr. MO. MS, and monopolies like MS, should not be taken lightly. They are slowly and systematically undermining the capitalistic system. Even though many (most?) Linux distro users are unaware ot it, they are participating in an ideological war.


The public has something like 300 OS's to select from. If it were a true monoply as you claim, this wouldn't be the case. There is no war.

[phrostbyte]

The public has something like 300 OS's to select from. If it were a true monoply as you claim, this wouldn't be the case. There is no war.

I'm guessing you are blind to all the Microsoft attacks on Linux and vise versa. There is hundreds of billions of dollars of money at stake here.

[aysiu]

The public has something like 300 OS's to select from. If it were a true monoply as you claim, this wouldn't be the case. There is no war. You're talking about only true or technical monopolies, not virtual monopolies. Virtual monopolies are just as harmful to consumers, if not more so.

[kamaboko]

I'm guessing you are blind to all the Microsoft attacks on Linux and vise versa. There is hundreds of billions of dollars of money at stake here.

God, you make it sound like it's the end of the world. Do you really think this is a big conspiracy? Gates and upper management wearing hooded garments are meeting in a dark room with a big round table? Maybe they conduct a few chants, pray to the MS icon and then discuss world domination? LOL.

[eljoeb]

They don't wear hooded garments; they wear ties. But that does not diminish their evil. I just think Linux could do a lot better with a positive message, as Adamant said. Ubuntu does pretty well in this department, I think.

ahem. Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[proalan]

Ironic that every time MS threaten linux with lawsuits it only strengthens linux by making people aware there are other operating systems about. The only way MS can continue to monopolize as with any multinational company is to keep the masses thinking that Windows is the only OS that exists as I once believed.

Besides MS / APPLE need Linux and open source developers so they can rip off open source work and pass it as their own innovations.

[kamaboko]

If MS were truly after world domination, they would not have helped Apple in the 1990's. MS would have squashed them when they were weak. This whole "evil" badge is pretty ridiculous if not childish.

[proalan]

I wouldn't say evil, unethical is more precise. My beef is software patents not only with MS but with other corporate companies that actively pursue it. This is the software equivalent of how corporate pharmaceutical companies tried to stop African countries from developing their own drugs to combat HIV through patenting.

copyrighting ones work is one thing but patenting with the intent of stopping others from developing solutions is quite unethical.

[DoctorMO]

This whole "evil" badge is pretty ridiculous if not childish.

They aren't evil, there is malice there, but it's a play on the corporate game; You've been watching too much He-Man if you think evil is just a cackling mad man with world domination on his mind. perhaps it's just ignorance, lack of compassion and a dishonest methodology that has managed to create this situation. what ever the reasons we can't really side with a company that's causing so much damage (intentional or not) and it's got to be the responsibility of the buying public to do the job that the US government has failed to do and shun their products out of principle not technical merit.

[vwbeamer]

If MS had a strong competitor, there product would be twice as good and half the cost.

MS is not evil, but it is not good for consumers when one company has a monopoly.
The prices on some of there software is outrages, like $400 for MS Office? Come on, you are just getting bent over if you buy that. That's a $19.95 program if I ever seen one.

[lisati]

They don't wear hooded garments; they wear ties. But that does not diminish their evil. I just think Linux could do a lot better with a positive message, as Adamant said. Ubuntu does pretty well in this department, I think.

ahem. Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Aah, ties! I remember wearing one of those many years ago, back in the days where I worked in an office. I wonder how many people use them as fashion statements instead of helping to keep their clothing tidy.

[lisati]

Software is a very serious issue, it hails back to the days of the Jacquard loom; You can't have a few people in the world controlling the automation and foundation for technological progress for an entire society.

Memories, huh? Some of the first computers I used back in the early 1980s had devices called "card readers" which used a mysterious thing called "punched cards" or "hollerith cards". If memory serves correctly, these curious items have the Jacquard loom as part of their technological heritage. Even though the use of terminals was catching on, the compilers available to me at work were designed for input sourced from such devices.

My earliest encounter with MS was with a Z80-based system - a bit of tinkering with a disassembler revealed that the version of BASIC was derived from a version of MS-BASIC found on TRS-80 and System-80 systems. (The rest of this train of thought probably belongs in the "programming talk" section of the forums.....a bit of tinkering let me type in "ON SOUND GOTO" to emulate "ON ERROR GOTO")

[Peyton]

Is it too much to want to use my computer without signing up to an ideology or joining a "war"?

[JAPrufrock]

Is it too much to want to use my computer without signing up to an ideology or joining a "war"?

Your not actually signing up to an idiological war- you're just inadvertantly participating. Remember that Ubuntu is not just free as in beer, but also free as in freedom for a reason, and that reason is ideological. Check out the Free Software Foundation (http://www.fsf.org/) for more info.

[Peyton]

Your not actually signing up to an idiological war- you're just inadvertantly participating.

So I'm participating against my will? That sounds like conscription.

[cmat]

Wow, we are treating this whole Microsoft thing like 5 year olds fighting over who's dad will win in a fight. Linux is an OS in it's own respects and so is Microsoft Windows. Linux has to stop playing catch-up with Microsoft and think of computing in it's own terms, what does the Linux user want. And not trying to copy what the Windows user wants. There is no way that Linux is ready for the mainstream and will not be for a long time. It's my OS of choice, I don't use Windows professionally much anymore, but I put myself in the enthusiast category and not the click and drool common folk. The constant push saying the propriety is evil and will kill Linux is stupid. Linux is about choice. I chose to get professionally developed and supported applications like AutoCAD and Photoshop on the platform. That's what we need, the industry standard tools which we don't have. Keeping me from getting rid of Windows all together.

In a nutshell, stop whining about Windows. Keep the OS and base applications free, but stand aside when we want proprietary applications.

[Dimitriid]

Linux and Ubuntu is not "just an OS" for some of us. There are reasons other than merely technical or economical to choose open, free software ok? You cannot just dismiss people like that.

[cmat]

That's how business works.

[kamaboko]

The funny thing is that I visit a number of MS discussion boards and seldom does one see posts along the lines of what one will find here all too frequently. For example, stuff like..."When will Gates and MS burn in Hell?" or "If you could nuke MS today would you do it?" or even this thread "Windows is a system, and that system is our enemy". God, it's all so juvenile.

[DoctorMO]

In a nutshell, stop whining about Windows. Keep the OS and base applications free, but stand aside when we want proprietary applications.

I have no qualms with proprietary applications, it's an inefficient model and if you can make it work without software patents or hidden file formats/network protocols then I don't mind giving those products the praise they deserve.


The funny thing is that I visit a number of MS discussion boards and seldom does one see posts along the lines of what one will find here all too frequently. For example, stuff like..."When will Gates and MS burn in Hell?" or "If you could nuke MS today would you do it?" or even this thread "Windows is a system, and that system is our enemy". God, it's all so juvenile.

Instead of quoting and constructing a valid argument against adult level discussion; you tactic appears to be picking the least comprehensively argued posts and demonising all posts as childish based on those select few. devious but very flawed argument. I can only assume you do this because you've got nothing to say about the real issues at hand.


That's how business works.

That it may be, but 1) it's not right and I shouldn't stand for it 2) I'm not a business and I don't care 3) society is more important than business 4) society has the right to limit the damage business does in how it operates. mostly to keep all parties honest. Obviously a bit of common sense in how to apply such limits but I see no reason in believing business is the be all and end all and often find that your creating an excuse for abuse.


Is it too much to want to use my computer without signing up to an ideology or joining a "war"?

Well yes, adult 101: What you do has consequences. You can't very well drive round in an SUV damaging the environment and complain ever time someone has the audacity to point it out. you'd like it if free software freaks would stop reminding Microsoft software users that they're helping to cause the damage Microsoft is doing? It's not about you being an innocent party, your association gives a monopoly power and you fail to take responsibility for that.

[Dimitriid]

If Mark Shuttleworth was just interested in a "business" he'd just sell Ubuntu or one of its variants. Going through these much trouble just to sell support as a business would make him a terrible businessman, but there is more behind things than just money.

You are using open free software so you should at least tolerate the points of view of people who do not think for everything in terms of money and that certainly do not apply value judgments based on money. An outright "its a business, I can dismiss you" is not likely to get the warmest of replies from people who make the software possible out of their own pockets for free and/or put in their personal time into it.

But im just saying...

[Peyton]

DoctorMO, in my opinion, it's more like buying a car only to have the dealer slap an <insert political candidate here> sticker on the back when I drive off. I use Linux, yes, but it should end there. I should not automatically be drafted into some ideological war. I have nothing against Microsoft.

[DoctorMO]

DoctorMO, in my opinion, it's more like buying a car only to have the dealer slap an <insert political candidate here> sticker on the back when I drive off. I use Linux, yes, but it should end there. I should not automatically be drafted into some ideological war. I have nothing against Microsoft.

No thats completely wrong as an analogy; what your saying is that it's wrong for me to force you to support Al Gore if you use linux. and that doesn't even make sense and I wouldn't support such a thing. on the other hand what your hinting at is that your use of linux is despite of the politics that created it; which is a rather foolish argument because your now taking the stance that politics doesn't matter or is irrelevant when it comes to using something. Almost everything you do is political when it involves other people, why in the world is software somehow exempt; When you use windows in a very small way you effect other people through association, it doesn't matter that you don't care about politics, you've already joined a side.


I have nothing against Microsoft.

I have to seriously question your blind ignorance or your reckless moral fiber to make such an absurd statement. You may not be aware of what they are really doing, since I couldn't ever believe someone could be that selfish and unaware of other people to suppose that such behavior on the part of Microsoft is ok.

[Peyton]

A lot of Linux users tend to come across as ideologues or elitists, and I believe that this can only hurt your "war" you speak of, as has been said earlier in the thread. They're not content to have somebody use Linux -- no, that same somebody has to hate Microsoft. Honestly, there should be no need to turn it into a Microsoft hate game. If you believe Linux is better, then let it stand for itself, and conduct its promotion in a positive, Linux-centric manner.

I think Linus himself hit on something here:

The beauty of the GPLv2 is exactly that it's a "tit-for-tat" license, and you can use it without having to drink the kool-aid.
I didn't install Linux to promote some ideology, however grand it may be. I'd rather make up my own mind on politics, rather than have them branded on me by somebody else. After all, it's all about freedom, is it not?

[Nunu]

HI All

I use to be one of them Microsoft supporting guys, burning the Linux flag. My reason behind it was if Linux was as good or better the Windows then they would be trying rub Windows of on me instead of Linux.

A few nights ago i dual booted my PC with Dapper. About an hour later i rebuild my machine with only Dapper (6.06LTS). My mind is changed and for the better I think. if they can charge R3500.00 for Vista (About $300.00) then they can easily charge R6000.00 for ubuntu. First of open office works better then office and you don't need to get a second software package to get the software. Secondly it is free!!! thirdly getting hardware to work on vista is almost the same issue as with Linux. Granted that i did have some trouble getting my Broadband and Duel Heads to work (4 Hours in total).

I have made the change. Linux ROCKS!!!!!. My reason for changing is an article I read on the internet about Bill wanting to introduce a system that looks at what you are typing on Outlook for instance and then downloads and advert from some company in eastern Korea that can sell you something for what ever disease it is that you have. That to me is invasion of privacy.

P.S if Microsoft wasn't scared about Linux taking possible victims, sorry i meant clients from them, then why was half of the development team on Vista SUSE developers. and why did Bill go and buy Novell whom owned SUSE.:lolflag:

I might be wrong. I might be right. I don't care cause my PC is fast and stable again and it didn't cost me a fortune to upgrade.

[DoctorMO]

A lot of Linux users tend to come across as ideologues or elitists, and I believe that this can only hurt your "war" you speak of, as has been said earlier in the thread. They're not content to have somebody use Linux -- no, that same somebody has to hate Microsoft. Honestly, there should be no need to turn it into a Microsoft hate game. If you believe Linux is better, then let it stand for itself, and conduct its promotion in a positive, Linux-centric manner.

That is true, it doesn't look very nice or pretty; principles are a pain in the neck like that to be honest. but what to do? To be honest I don't care if you use linux or not, that is a technical choice; but use of windows is a simple violation of the moral "do not support others in knowingly harming anyone." obviously this requires that both you and Microsoft know what Microsoft is doing wrong. Er so this basically means I couldn't use windows, not for anything or any reason. As I said principles are a pain in the neck, but I'd be in trouble without them.

So use linux for all I care, but for everyones sake don't use windows.

[Nunu]

So use linux for all I care, but for everyones sake don't use windows

I like that.

It has nothing to do with a war for me. i am angry with myself for paying the high prices for licensing software that i could have had for free.

And to be perfectly honest i actually enjoy sitting with Linux and figuring out what the hell to do. Windows made it to easy in a sense, that you could no longer really say that you are a PC genius because everything is wizards. Where as Linux still tests the gray matter a bit, things doesn't just fall into place... kinda like DOS was

No offense to the person that thinks by running device manager and clicking "update now" makes you a rocket scientist. But for me having worked on Windows for a very long time (Since Windows 3.1) things have just become less of a... test if you will.

[swoll1980]

Computer users must understand that windows and Microsoft are damaging the industry and costing the economy of the world billions in lost production and money. It's sick that people can put aside such thoughts because they want to excuse their own actions and not take responsibility for what they help do to the world.

To bring that into the car analogy, if people would just support taxation we could build a better rail network, everyone would buy cycles for short trips and take them on the trains. cars are the most useless form of personal transport, yet people still use them despite damaging the environment with every liter of petrol.

It's easier to just say that people are stupid, inconsiderate and dangerous animals that would even put their own future in jeopardy in order to excuse their own actions and stay clear of personal responsibility.

How can microsoft be bad for the economy, 66% of the american economy is based on the american consumer. If the american consumer is buying a $200 operating system $12 dollars is going to the man. if you take $12 x the number of copies of windows sold in the us every day thats alot of money + you take the tax revanue from the 3 billion dollars a fiscal quarter that microsoft generates thats alot of money too. you can say alot of things about microsoft but "strain on the economy" is not one them

[swoll1980]

And linux is an enemy of itself. Gnome vs KDE, blahblahblah. Cannot open sound device, etc. Read the (complicated and sometimes incomplete/outdated/poorly written/nonexistant) manuals, yadayada. No disk space: cannot start kde/gnome, and so on.

Linux is far from user friendly at this moment. Even if it has come a long way, it still has too many fundamental flaws to be a desktop operating system for the man who will buy a computar from PC WORLD.

Ubuntu as a OS has the fewest flaws of any other OS on the planet. The only thing that makes it
"not ready for the desk top" ,and keeps it from being my primary OS is the lack of support from the hardware companies, and the general population, but all of that is changing slowly but surley and I believe in the next ten years there wont be a need for microsoft anymore. whether or not thats a good thing is up for debate because the one thing that microsoft is good for is generating tax revanue

[popch]

How can microsoft be bad for the economy, 66% of the american economy is based on the american consumer. If the american consumer is buying a $200 operating system $12 dollars is going to the man. if you take $12 x the number of copies of windows sold in the us every day thats alot of money + you take the tax revanue from the 3 billion dollars a fiscal quarter that microsoft generates thats alot of money too. you can say alot of things about microsoft but "strain on the economy" is not one them

There's a proposition which will boost your precious economy even more:
- reduce the price for windows to - say - USD 120.--
- install on each PC a proper OS, such as linux
- pay the USD 120.- mentioned above directly to 'the man' instead of to MS

Thus, you will create tax revenues of 30 billion dollars a fiscal quarter, without the wear and tear on the user's nervous system.

[cunawarit]

What you do has consequences. You can't very well drive round in an SUV damaging the environment and complain ever time someone has the audacity to point it out. you'd like it if free software freaks would stop reminding Microsoft software users that they're helping to cause the damage Microsoft is doing? It's not about you being an innocent party, your association gives a monopoly power and you fail to take responsibility for that.

What if people have already considered such things?

What if someone considered the environmental impact of the SUV, their needs, as well as their conscience and decided that the best option was to drive an SUV?

Also what if a small business owner considered Linux, Mac OS X, and Windows, their needs, as well as their conscience and decided that the best thing for their business and the people they employ is Windows?

Why should those people have their own already carefully considered choices thrown back at their face? It will not accomplish anything other than anger those whose choice is being thrown back at their face and make them think the one doing the throwing is an utter ***... It will certainly not cause them to reconsider and opt for a Linux to develop .NET apps, or a Prius to tow a 7500 lb boat.

[swoll1980]

To bring that into the car analogy, if people would just support taxation we could build a better rail network, everyone would buy cycles for short trips and take them on the trains. cars are the most useless form of personal transport, yet people still use them despite damaging the environment with every liter of petrol.

.

Something tells me your not riding a horse and buggy to work everyday so where do you get the right to judge others for driving cars. If you believe in the bible (I don't) but if you do "a sin is a sin" whether you call a man a fool or stick a knife in his back it's all the same in the eyes of god. A bus still causes pollution a train does to. They may not cause as much pollution but they still cause pollution. " sin is a sin" unless your walking, riding or horse or a bicycle. Then you are contributing to the pollution too, and there for can't judge someone ealse for doing the same thing that your doing only "worse" or "more" a sin is a sin you might not buy mirosoft software but you are for sure not a saint ,and there for you are a you are a hipocryte.

[Arwen]

+1 -->"I don't care cause my PC is fast and stable again and it didn't cost me a fortune to upgrade" as Nunu stated and he/she is right.Linux really helps take advantage of old pcs,I've recently managed to run damn small linux in a P1 @133MHz .Besides there is a big variety of distros to choose from and you can easily configure your installation so as to be up to your needs. I think linux and open source software will be more present in the future and I strongly believe that windows monopoly happens because of their excellent promotion from an early stage and not for them being a better OS than anything else.
As a result the majority of programs and games that an average user needs run only in XP or vista and that really stops people from converting to linux.
Also,linux is now more user-friendly than it used to be but the real problem is that most users started by using windows and find it hard to get used to linux structure(off topic:change xp into debian in someone's pc ,make it look like xp..he might not understand the difference and he will be fine with open office instead of his beloved MSOffice :-P)But it's just mentality thing and I'm glad that more and more users switch to linux finally cause they realise sometimes you pay less but you get more;-)

[Nunu]

I am with Arwen

Stick a BMW Badge on a Mercedes and they guy is going to think he is buying a Beemer (if i am allowed to bring the transport thing back in :) )

Some people can't afford the price tag on a new Windows license, and to make it worse Vista only supports "Vista Certified" hardware. All the other Windows releases didn't have this "BUG" why now? For the average person to upgrade from XP to Vista it is simply not affordable enough, and if i may there is nothing so special about Vista that I can say it is worth the price tag.

[kamaboko]

Instead of quoting and constructing a valid argument against adult level discussion; you tactic appears to be picking the least comprehensively argued posts and demonising all posts as childish based on those select few. devious but very flawed argument. I can only assume you do this because you've got nothing to say about the real issues at hand.

Yawn......I'm getting sleepy....are you done yet?

[Nunu]

Yawn......I'm getting sleepy....are you done yet?


Go and install a hot fix or something, that should wake you up.

[popch]

... Vista only supports "Vista Certified" hardware. All the other Windows releases didn't have this..

Not true. It would not have been all that hard to find out that this was not true.


there is nothing so special about Vista that I can say it is worth the price tag.

So don't buy it.

[cunawarit]

Some people can't afford the price tag on a new Windows license

Agreed, but is that an issue with OEM Vista? Vista equipped PC's start at under 400 dollars, that's very little to spend on a brand new computer.


and to make it worse Vista only supports "Vista Certified" hardware. All the other Windows releases didn't have this "BUG" why now?

What do you mean? Isn't it the norm for a new version of Windows to have different hardware requirements than the last.


For the average person to upgrade from XP to Vista it is simply not affordable enough, and if i may there is nothing so special about Vista that I can say it is worth the price tag.

I disagree, the price of a new PC with Vista Business is about the same as the price of a new PC with XP Pro. The PC I am using right now has Vista, and I have to say that I would not want to go back to XP. Obviously not everyone feels the same way about Vista, some hate it. But me, as an average person, now using Vista at work I'd much rather have Vista than XP and there's no way in hell anyone is going to convince me to buy a new PC with XP instead of Vista.

As for actually just upgrading OS, agreed, it doesn't make sense when OEM Vista works out so cheap with a new PC. I have no plans to buy Vista separately to upgrade my Windows machine at home. I'll get Vista at home when I get a new machine.

PS: FWIW, the performance of Vista seems to be awesome, applications load up really fast... bang! it is up there. Searches are way way faster than with XP too... And setting up things is a breeze. Hello Vista, does this server have a printer?... Yes sir it does... Cool, can I use it?... Yes, but you need this driver, shall I install it?... Yes please!... You can use the printer now... Thank you! :)

[Nunu]

Some hardware you can find generic driver for that dose work... sort off.

Others, the vendors has released drivers that dose work.
The rest you can forget about they just won't work.

And don't get me started on the performance side of things. It is easier to make a Windows based game to work through ubuntu then to get some of the new big titles to work in Vista


So don't buy it.

I didn't, I installed 6.06LTS :lolflag:

[Nunu]

I disagree, the price of a new PC with Vista Business is about the same as the price of a new PC with XP Pro. The PC I am using right now has Vista, and I have to say that I would not want to go back to XP. Obviously not everyone feels the same way about Vista, some hate it. But me, as an average person, now using Vista at work I'd much rather have Vista than XP and there's no way in hell anyone is going to convince me to buy a new PC with XP instead of Vista.

As for actually just upgrading OS, agreed, it doesn't make sense when OEM Vista works out so cheap with a new PC. I have no plans to buy Vista separately to upgrade my Windows machine at home. I'll get Vista at home when I get a new machine.

I do agree with you fully. This is the case in the US and UK. in SA we pay US prices times almost 12 in some cases. this means where you buy a PC with vista for $500, in SA to buy a PC that is worth it's salt (not Mainstream release that still requires better Graphics cards.) the prices do go up quite a bit. For instance a new Nvidia top end card could go between R5000.00 up to as much as R9000.00 if not more

I know if you are a average guy you don't need a top end card, but take a person in a lesser income bracket, a new PC with vista can go for double his monthly pay check. shocking thing is that most people in SA can't afford to spend that type of money on a PC unless they pay it off over a period of time.

[bchaffin72]

I am not going to name call Microsoft, but I will say they do not get my business. I do not care for their business practices and have found for myself that most of their software is either inferior to or simply no better than open source/free equivalents. I truly cannot tell anyone else what to do, but my mind is made up as a matter of principle.

[forrestcupp]

Some people don't want to have to buy a new computer. $400 is a reasonable price for a new Vista computer, but some people just don't have an extra $400.

There is nothing wrong with a new OS requiring better hardware, but Vista's requirements are just crazy. Sure, you can get by with less if you don't run Aero, but who wants Vista without Aero?

[handy]

People use what does the job for them.

As DRM & Trusted Computing impact more on the lives of people using windows & mac, they will talk about the lack of freedom, & Linux & BSD will start coming up in conversations more often. At the same time the alternative OS's are constantly improving & heading to be really polished desktop OS's which makes it easier for people to adopt & adapt.

I think windows as a system is our friend!

[Freddy]

The funny thing about this discussion is that it seems there are a bunch GNU advocates here, Linux isn't GNU and Linus Torvalds himself haven't signed up for this "war".

Linus once said when he was asked about GNU/Linux on desktops:

Well thats nice but not a concern of mine (or something like that).
One of the reasons he isn't a big fan of gpl3 is cause that license makes it a pain for proprietary software developers to incorporate drm.

Myself would really like to see GNU/Linux taking computer users from both Microsoft and Macintosh and make this world a more open and happy place but there will always be a place for closed source and proprietary software.

To conclude, here is couple of quote by our favorite OS developer:

I don't try to be a threat to MicroSoft, mainly because I don't really see MS as competition. Especially not Windows-the goals of Linux and Windows are simply so different.

Microsoft isn't evil, they just make really crappy operating systems.

/Freddan

[JAPrufrock]

DoctorMO, in my opinion, it's more like buying a car only to have the dealer slap an <insert political candidate here> sticker on the back when I drive off. I use Linux, yes, but it should end there. I should not automatically be drafted into some ideological war. I have nothing against Microsoft.

As far as I know you were not drafted. However, when you decided to use Linux, you became a free software user. You may have decided to use Ubuntu because it is free (as in beer), or you may have decided to use Ubuntu because you think that it is a better OS than Windows, or maybe because it has a "geeky" status- whatever. However, there is a larger issue here, which is the main reason why a lot of us are using GNU/Linux distros like Ubuntu- we believe in the free software movement. That is the main reason why I decided to use a GNU/Linux distro. I do not believe that I should support a monopoly like MS. In fact, I believe that I should oppose it. Because you are using Ubuntu, you are supporting (obviously unintentional) the free software movement. It's a numbers game- the more people who use Ubuntu, the more support we get from software vendors, hardware vendors (open drivers), program developers, etc. And the more support we get, the better chance we have of improving ease of installation and use of Ubuntu to the point where it will seriously challenge Windows as a popular OS. So I'm sorry, but yes, you are unintentionally participating in an idealogical war. But look at the bright side- you get to use a great OS for free!

[marco123]

I don't want everyone using Linux. Correct me if I'm wrong but theres something really cool about having your friends/family coming over and showing them Linux/Beryl and them thinking your some freaky god-like computer genius because they don't understand. Mwahahahahah. :lolflag:

[Nunu]

I installed a copy of Ubuntu 4 or something like that last night and compared it with 6.06LTS, and the difference is shocking. almost to a point where you if it wasn't for the colors of the themes, you wouldn't thought that the two versions are from the same vendor. i am looking forward to getting my hand on the new version and see what that is going to be like.

If a OS like ubuntu can make such a giant leap in development forward where you can see and feel the difference in operation and do that in 5 years and still make the software freely available, then surly a company that is listed in the top 20 of the fortune 500 should have been able to do more then just change the look of the software in space of, what 10 years between XP and Vista. I might be wrong in this but to me Vista is just a copy of XP with a side bar and a windowblinds skin installed

[Sp4cedOut]

OK guys, this isn't Star Wars. We are not the rebel alliance and Microsoft is not the empire. Even though this is an Ubuntu forum, I can see some of you prefer the TinFoil Hat distro.


I agree with Dr. MO. MS, and monopolies like MS, should not be taken lightly. They are slowly and systematically undermining the capitalistic system. Even though many (most?) Linux distro users are unaware ot it, they are participating in an ideological war. The goals and values of MS are diametrically opposed to those of Ubuntu, as well as to those of the FSF. The danger of MS is that it's been so successful that it's the envy of other companies, not only in the software industry, but in other industries as well. The model that's being copied is this one- "create some sort of monoply, and then screw the consumer." Profit is God, and everything else is subjugated to it. I don't believe that MS is evil. Large companies tend to be amoral. However, I do believe that MS is a danger to the world. Maybe MS isn't your enemy- but it's definitely mine.

I suggest you all (especially Nunu and DoctorMO) check out what Mark Shuttleworth has to say about Microsoft:


I have high regard for Microsoft. They produce some amazing software, and they made software much cheaper than it ever was before they were around. Many people at Microsoft are motivated by a similar ideal to one we have in Ubuntu: to empower people for the digital era. Of course, we differ widely on many aspects of the implementation of that ideal, but my point is that Microsoft is actually committed to the same game that we free software people are committed to: building things which people use every day.

http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/118

I use both Windows XP and Ubuntu, I like Linux but have no intention of giving up Windows.

[Nunu]

Doctor Mo

Mark is crossing to the Dark side.


*heavy brathing* Mark I am your farther*Heavy Breathing

[DoctorMO]

I suggest you all (especially Nunu and DoctorMO) check out what Mark Shuttleworth has to say about Microsoft:

Were you just not reading my posts? I happen to agree with a lot of what Mark is saying; he's got a good head on those shoulders. But in the end weather intentional or unintentionally Microsoft _are_ hurting the industry, the economy and the world of public technology standards; I don't deny them the glory of once being in touch with their users and building systems by copying the greatest ideas of the time and fusing them into a workable product. I dislike them as a company because they're a monopoly, nothing personal or anything but they can't be allowed to control what they are attempting to control.

I'm sure there are readers on here inserting weird random words into my posts to make me seem like some free software radical; I'm just a developer who knows the difference between right and wrong and knows when not to support someone or something that is doing wrongs.


Why should those people have their own already carefully considered choices thrown back at their face? It will not accomplish anything other than anger those whose choice is being thrown back at their face and make them think the one doing the throwing is an utter ***... It will certainly not cause them to reconsider and opt for a Linux to develop .NET apps, or a Prius to tow a 7500 lb boat.

It doesn't matter if he's angry; that isn't the point. failure to respect your own morality won't win you points with me regardless of need. Besides he's only angry in your case because I've suggested he should have shame for his actions. instead he should weigh up how much responsibility he really has (not that much) and just damn my eyes if that's what it takes. This is what we call disagreeing of the finer points.


66% of the american economy is based on the american consumer. If the american consumer is buying a $200 operating system $12 dollars is going to the man. if you take $12 x the number of copies of windows sold in the us every day thats alot of money + you take the tax revanue from the 3 billion dollars a fiscal quarter that microsoft generates thats alot of money too. you can say alot of things about microsoft but "strain on the economy" is not one them

I don't know where you learn your economics; but money that isn't earned through selling products doesn't just disappear into thin air. you need to get out of this counting coins mumbo economic theory and start looking at the system as a whole. the economy could have spent a fair bit more money on moving other areas forwards and producing and providing better for society without the Microsoft burden.

[Nunu]

This Topic is steering into a different direction. At the end of the Day it is your choice to buy a Mercedes Benz or a Fiat Punto. Both of them is going to do what you need one is going to have a nice wooden leather interior the other is going to be plastic and raw. one is going to have electric Windows the other is going to to have manual windows. one is going to be automatic the other is going to be manual. one is going to cost a arm and a leg the other is going to be cheap and simple. It is your choice which you want to drive the expensive Mercedes or the cheap Fiat. just don't complain when the motor plan expires and you have to pay the service bill.

[popch]

just don't complain when the motor plan expires and you have to pay the service bill.

Especially not when the price for the service is set to a fixed rate of the initial cost of purchase of the car.

[dptxp]

Windows is a product, Linux is a revolution.
Evolution of desktop Linux is because Windows exists.
There would be no good without evil and no God without Satan.
So long live Windows, it is essential for Linux to grow.

[Nunu]

Windows is a product, Linux is a revolution.
Evolution of desktop Linux is because Windows exists.
There would be no good without evil and no God without Satan.
So long live Windows, it is essential for Linux to grow.

Never thought of that. Long live Bill Gates. Hail Hail Hail :lolflag:

[jethro10]

And linux is an enemy of itself. Gnome vs KDE, blahblahblah. Cannot open sound device, etc. Read the (complicated and sometimes incomplete/outdated/poorly written/nonexistant) manuals, yadayada. No disk space: cannot start kde/gnome, and so on.

Linux is far from user friendly at this moment. Even if it has come a long way, it still has too many fundamental flaws to be a desktop operating system for the man who will buy a computar from PC WORLD.

I had to laugh, you sound just like me. I had to check it wasn't one of my posts I'd forgotten about.
There's seems to be very few realistic and pragmatic people like us here.
United we stand divided (eg. KDE V's Gnome) we fall.

(PS : I couldn't care less if I use KDE or Gnome, as long as it gets really big in the market.)

J

[DoctorMO]

I had to laugh, you sound just like me. I had to check it wasn't one of my posts I'd forgotten about.
There's seems to be very few realistic and pragmatic people like us here.
United we stand divided (eg. KDE V's Gnome) we fall.

Practical has it's limits too you know. anyway I use what I think does the job at the time, although I have to say I'm not too impressed with emacs :-P

[Sayers]

Hmmmm, i've been using 7.04 for about three weeks and no problems, and Dell is offering it on new PCs


I think you are wrong,

Linux is clearly a Superior OS. Especially for surfing the web.

Lets look-
Cost. Linux wins
Security -Linux wins
Speed- Linux wins
Ease of use-tie
aplications- Linux wins, 1000 Of FREE programs. plus can run many window programs.


Linux user will grow, I always discounted it until I tried it. It was not until I got a virus on my PC( despite firewalls, virus protection, etc) that I started investigating other OS.

That is so bias. Windows has many applications that people pay for that dont work on Linux. Games and such..
I guess Ubuntu is easy to use but Linux in general isn't.

[Sayers]

Aslong as Kde and Gnome are developed they will stay. This is because linux is about choice...

[Nunu]

That is so bias. Windows has many applications that people pay for that dont work on Linux. Games and such..

But you can make some application work on Linux though limited but it is doable. For instance i am having myself a blast with Need for speed Carbon on my Linux box. The resolution won't go full screen but I can still play the game and again because Linux is less resource intensive the Game does seem to be more responsive on Linux.

Again I don't care if it is KDE or Gnome, as long as it is free and it works and i am able to be a benefit to the open source community I am happy. As a matter of fact I am in the process of getting my paws on another machine so that I can build a Kubuntu machine

[Sp4cedOut]

It doesn't matter if he's angry; that isn't the point. failure to respect your own morality won't win you points with me regardless of need. Besides he's only angry in your case because I've suggested he should have shame for his actions. instead he should weigh up how much responsibility he really has (not that much) and just damn my eyes if that's what it takes. This is what we call disagreeing of the finer points.

There's nothing immoral about choosing the product that fits your needs.

[popch]

What would be the name for the second release of Vista? Second Sight?

[mikewhatever]

http://www.cypherbios.org/blog/?language=en

Sorry for the possibly obnoxious thread title. :)

But I think this blog post is correct. How do you fight the attiude described in his blog?

The guy really needs to learn how to use the spell checker.

[dca]

Look, from the perspective of the individual PC/laptop user this argument is boring and over-done. We use what we're comfortable with. From my side the OS is ancillary, as long as it does what I need it to, I don't care.

MS has ninety some-odd plus percent of the desktop market on the Windows/Office side. The part that's missing is when a new (or even existing looking to save money) business starts up, they buy a bunch of servers to host webpages, share files, POP email, etc. MS is losing on that front. No SMB wants to pay for a worthless Windows Server 2003 license (pick your flavor, DataCenter, etc, etc) per CPU, CALs per user accessing server, and on and on and on. Exchange for email, running MS SQL Server for this and pay licenses quarterly/yearly for that. WHY? More and more companies are bringing their IT in house. Hiring sys admins capable of managing Linux servers who are also able to play hardware support. Knowing full well they can save money there...

Arguing this on an individual level is pointless. Most of you have made your decision and have decided to go quasi-FOSS (outside of illegal codecs, etc). Fine.

[forrestcupp]

There's nothing immoral about choosing the product that fits your needs.

To some people Free Software is like a religion. They really believe it is immoral to use proprietary software. I don't get it, but some people really think that way. I'm of the belief that computers, OS's and software are there to perform tasks for us, not to rule our morality.

To each his own.

[ErusGuleilmus]

All I can say is that extremism is bad. Extremism blinds you and prohibits you form seeing things from different prospective and benefiting from the experience. I think one of the major strengths of the Open Source community is that many of its members are open-minded. It is a shame to see that so many have blinded themselves, and refuse to see anything any other way. An Open Source extremist is in my opinion just as counterproductive as a Microsoft extremist.

[arashiko28]

As I've said a million times before. They, including my self once, used Windows because they do not know anything better:lolflag:

[DoctorMO]

There's nothing immoral about choosing the product that fits your needs.

I beg to differ, sometimes it is; mostly it's not. I won't replete my arguments again but you've hardly countered them.


All I can say is that extremism is bad. Extremism blinds you and prohibits you form seeing things from different prospective and benefiting from the experience. I think one of the major strengths of the Open Source community is that many of its members are open-minded. It is a shame to see that so many have blinded themselves, and refuse to see anything any other way. An Open Source extremist is in my opinion just as counterproductive as a Microsoft extremist.

You right it is, I can't stand these middelist extremisms. they can't see anything but the middle of the road, got to be fair for fairs sake attitude. why can't they just think about things rationally and we could have a productive talk about it instead of this meaningless post -a-thon of people who think they're being moderate by supporting throwing out of morally behaviour and self responsibility on the issue of operating systems. I shall repeat for anyone still not reading my posts all the way through: It's not because windows is proprietary, it's because windows comes from Microsoft, they do bad things, using windows equates to support of Microsoft's business methods and their actions as an organisation; I can not support such a company in such a position and anyone picking windows on technical merit alone is blinding them selves to the moral question.

[forrestcupp]

It's not because windows is proprietary, it's because windows comes from Microsoft, they do bad things, using windows equates to support of Microsoft's business methods and their actions as an organisation; I can not support such a company in such a position and anyone picking windows on technical merit alone is blinding them selves to the moral question.
Well, that's a little more respectable than what I thought. I haven't kept track of all of your posts, so I thought that you were speaking against proprietary software and not Microsoft's unethical business practices. I personally won't judge someone as being immoral just because they use Microsoft products, but I can respect your choice to boycott a company for those reasons.

But I believe that if you dig deep enough, you will find unethical practices in the people who run Ubuntu, the Linux Kernel team, or any other business in the world. No one is perfect. Some are less so than others. Some that look good on the outside are actually bad on the inside.

[handy]

All I can say is that extremism is bad. Extremism blinds you and prohibits you form seeing things from different prospective and benefiting from the experience. I think one of the major strengths of the Open Source community is that many of its members are open-minded. It is a shame to see that so many have blinded themselves, and refuse to see anything any other way. An Open Source extremist is in my opinion just as counterproductive as a Microsoft extremist.

You are far more likely to find Free Software Foundation extremists. Which exist as a balance to the ubiquitous closed source extreme that has created the likes of Bill Gates.

The Free Software Foundation people are continually working in an effort to prevent software vendors from controlling what we do with our computers.

This is a huge expensive international effort, expensive in both time & money.

I am grateful to them.

[Sp4cedOut]

You right it is, I can't stand these middelist extremisms. they can't see anything but the middle of the road, got to be fair for fairs sake attitude. why can't they just think about things rationally and we could have a productive talk about it instead of this meaningless post -a-thon of people who think they're being moderate by supporting throwing out of morally behaviour and self responsibility on the issue of operating systems. I shall repeat for anyone still not reading my posts all the way through: It's not because windows is proprietary, it's because windows comes from Microsoft, they do bad things, using windows equates to support of Microsoft's business methods and their actions as an organisation; I can not support such a company in such a position and anyone picking windows on technical merit alone is blinding them selves to the moral question.

Do you use products from China?

[Nunu]

Guys

Please read this article, You will soon understand my feelings about Microsoft.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/07/26/windows_vista_drivers/

If vista was free i would say yeah well what did you expect from free software understandably. But to stuff up in such a way and still charge your clients an arm and a leg for software... I say bring me my fork and rally the mob

[Circus-Killer]

okay, here's my thoughts on proprietary software. for the most part its good. i have no problems with it. i even think in some respects windows is a great product. my main reason for not supporting windows is there pricing and there business practices. (i dont see why an os should cost more than my laptop, when the creators are already rolling in cash).

if i walk into a shop to by some.....i dont know.....anything, pens. i'm not going to go buy a pen that costs 100x the other pens and only half works. but there are some people that would spend $200 on a pen. good for them. i just choose to use the best product that gives me the best value for money, whether it be in food, cars, or OS's.

[popch]

i dont see why an os should cost more than my laptop, when the creators are already rolling in cash.

Just for the record: are in your country laptops so cheap or is windows really that expensive with respect to disposable income and cost of living?

[Circus-Killer]

Just for the record: are in your country laptops so cheap or is windows really that expensive with respect to disposable income and cost of living?

laptops are expensive, windows is more expensive.

Laptop = R4899
Vista Ultimate = R8999

The R is for South African Rands. and dont ask about lesser editions of windows, cos thats another things i hate. home premium costs R3999 (a grand cheaper than my laptop), FAR FAR too much money for half a product.

[jgrabham]

Well, keep in mind that most users (and I include myself in this group) do not see MIcrosoft as evil. Too many people try to convert Windows users by attempting to force the whole free software philosophy on them, but they fail to realize that most people don't care. People just want software that works and is easy. Period.

I care!

[Nunu]

I quote myself


I do agree with you fully. This is the case in the US and UK. in SA we pay US prices times almost 12 in some cases. this means where you buy a PC with vista for $500, in SA to buy a PC that is worth it's salt (not Mainstream release that still requires better Graphics cards.) the prices do go up quite a bit. For instance a new Nvidia top end card could go between R5000.00 up to as much as R9000.00 if not more

I know if you are a average guy you don't need a top end card, but take a person in a lesser income bracket, a new PC with vista can go for double his monthly pay check. shocking thing is that most people in SA can't afford to spend that type of money on a PC unless they pay it off over a period of time.

Would you guys from the USA pay $1000.00 for Windows Vista???? because that is what we South Africans are looking at a nice cool R10 000.00 By the end of this year middle of next, according to some.

But don't quot me on the exact price as yet, for now that is market rumors and the price is still a nasty R8999.00

[popch]

laptops are expensive, windows is more expensive.

Laptop = R4899
Vista Ultimate = R8999

Yes, that's very expensive. A quick check with one of the retailers here seems to show that Vista Ultimate costs about 70% of a new but cheap laptop. R5000 would roughly correspond to EUR500 which would be a bit less than you pay here for a very cheap laptop. This does not take the costs of living into account, of course.

Linux must be very popular in your country, then.

[@trophy]

Would you guys from the USA pay $1000.00 for Windows Vista????

LOL no, but I'd take a copy of Vista if they paid *ME* $1000.00. Then I'd eBay the copy of Vista and buy myself something nice... maybe some more camera equipment.

[Nunu]

Linux must be very popular in your country, then.

Regretfully no, Most users and companies in SA are shoulder deep in the proverbial MS Butt. With the odd one or two companies that has decided to go Linux. But alas Windows dose account for about 95% of the total amount of OS installed

[cunawarit]

$1000! Holly....!!!!

I've just bought a whole PC with Vista Business for less than that.

[popch]

$1000! Holly....!!!!

I've just bought a whole PC with Vista Business for less than that.

They seem to be giving away PCs when you buy Windows.

[Nunu]

$1000! Holly....!!!!

I've just bought a whole PC with Vista Business for less than that.

I am also in support of one global currency and market system :lolflag:

[forrestcupp]

I am also in support of one global currency and market system :lolflag:

That doesn't even work in the United States. If you go to McDonald's in my rural area you will pay less for your food than if you go to the McDonald's in Downtown Indianapolis. It doesn't matter where you are in the world, the cost of living will factor in even if you have one currency.

[JAPrufrock]

All I can say is that extremism is bad. Extremism blinds you and prohibits you form seeing things from different prospective and benefiting from the experience. I think one of the major strengths of the Open Source community is that many of its members are open-minded. It is a shame to see that so many have blinded themselves, and refuse to see anything any other way. An Open Source extremist is in my opinion just as counterproductive as a Microsoft extremist.

What are you saying? Ubuntu is open source, as are most other Linux distros.

[popch]

laptops are expensive, windows is more expensive.

Laptop = R4899
Vista Ultimate = R8999

The R is for South African Rands. and dont ask about lesser editions of windows, cos thats another things i hate. home premium costs R3999 (a grand cheaper than my laptop), FAR FAR too much money for half a product.

Have you noticed the USD150.-- laptop mentioned in the hardware and laptop forum? (that's US-dollars, one, five, oh)