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maruchan
July 21st, 2005, 01:06 AM
Does anybody else hesitate to refer new users to the wiki? (http://wiki.ubuntu.org)

There's a lot of valuable information on the wiki, but it just isn't very noob friendly. For one, everything is WrittenLikeThis. And then there's the fact that wikis are usually so loosely structured that users feel really confused.

As long as there is a doc team, why not just set up a new user docs-only site with a simple-to-navigate CMS and call it the official ubuntu guide? If people are going to wet their pants if they can't edit a page, let them leave a comment or sign up to be on the doc team.

If this isn't possible, let's at least have a "New users click here for the manual" link above all the "You too can edit wiki pages!" self-gratifying snarf on the home page.

EndOfRant

benplaut
July 21st, 2005, 01:23 AM
Does anybody else hesitate to refer new users to the wiki? (http://wiki.ubuntu.org)

There's a lot of valuable information on the wiki, but it just isn't very noob friendly. For one, everything is WrittenLikeThis. And then there's the fact that wikis are usually so loosely structured that users feel really confused.

As long as there is a doc team, why not just set up a new user docs-only site with a simple-to-navigate CMS and call it the official ubuntu guide? If people are going to wet their pants if they can't edit a page, let them leave a comment or sign up to be on the doc team.

If this isn't possible, let's at least have a "New users click here for the manual" link above all the "You too can edit wiki pages!" self-gratifying snarf on the home page.

EndOfRant

the Wiki isn't organised well... it's really hard to find stuff...

surely some CMS's can be set up to work Wiki style?

Burgundavia
July 21st, 2005, 01:47 AM
The wiki has been neglected by us recently. This is now coming to an end. We are also working on getting our official help that is shipped with the distro to a new webspace as well.

And as for CamelCase, I wish it would go away too, but I don't have enough clout.

Corey

poofyhairguy
July 21st, 2005, 01:56 AM
Does anybody else hesitate to refer new users to the wiki? (http://wiki.ubuntu.org)


Depends. Some of the wiki pages are well written (like the synaptic howto). But unlike the guide, I would never say "look in the wiki for your answer."

The wiki REALLY needs a page like this:

http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=31094

Burgundavia
July 21st, 2005, 02:00 AM
It does;

http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDocumentation

Corey

maruchan
July 21st, 2005, 02:02 AM
The wiki has been neglected by us recently. This is now coming to an end.

So the wiki is closing down, or what?


The wiki REALLY needs a page like this:

http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=31094

That is one awesome forum post.

az
July 21st, 2005, 02:12 AM
Have you seen this?

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDocumentation

There is also

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/forum

But the first link is way better. The goal is for forum staff to encourage people to use and contribute back to the wiki. We will get on this shortly, just as soon as we get our act together.

Think contests.....

az
July 21st, 2005, 02:14 AM
I get up for five minutes and twelve people post before I do....

What the heck is CamelCase? Like, where does the word ComeFrom?

http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=31094

*That* is a taget of opportunity for a wiki porting contest. RastaMahata should get a prize right off the bat..

crashtest
July 21st, 2005, 02:23 AM
..For one, everything is WrittenLikeThis.

Ha!ThatisTooFunny! WritingLikeThisIsWayBetterThanUsingSpaces which would just be, you know, readable....

poofyhairguy
July 21st, 2005, 02:29 AM
http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDocumentation



That link should be at the top of the Ubuntu.com home page.

damonw5
July 21st, 2005, 02:32 AM
Ha!ThatisTooFunny! WritingLikeThisIsWayBetterThanUsingSpaces which would just be, you know, readable....
And don't you love it whenPeopleWriteLikeThis and then you click on "whenPeopleWriteLikeThis" and it says "this page has not been created yet..."?

UbuWu
July 21st, 2005, 02:52 AM
What the heck is CamelCase? Like, where does the word ComeFrom?


The CamelCase name comes from the uppercase "bumps" in the middle of the compound word, suggesting the humps of a camel.

ThatIsWhatWikipediaHasToSayAboutIt.

Seriously, I really don't get it why it is still being used. Might have been very useful for the first wiki's that existed, but it should have been abandoned a long time ago, especially on a site that should be helpful to new users, that probably haven't even heard of the name wiki.

maruchan
July 21st, 2005, 03:03 AM
Here is my favorite test case:

User goes to: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/forum

"Hooray, I found a forum!"

*clicks on "hardware"*

"This doesn't look like a forum. What's this about pasting from the forums? And why do I add information under a relevant heading?"

*scratches head*

*clicks on "modem"*

"Whoa, what do I do with all this cd Desktop stuff?"

And what the fooey is behind that "CategoryCategory" link!?!

*reboots into windows*

mattheweast
July 21st, 2005, 03:49 AM
I understand what you're saying here, but at the same time the guy could just read the page. It explains quite clearly what it is.

kleeman
July 21st, 2005, 03:49 AM
Very funny :) :) and you have some valid points. The wiki guys are trying so some constructive feedback might be in order (mild suggestion late at night!)



Here is my favorite test case:

User goes to: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/forum

"Hooray, I found a forum!"

*clicks on "hardware"*

"This doesn't look like a forum. What's this about pasting from the forums? And why do I add information under a relevant heading?"

*scratches head*

*clicks on "modem"*

"Whoa, what do I do with all this cd Desktop stuff?"

And what the fooey is behind that "CategoryCategory" link!?!

*reboots into windows*

mattheweast
July 21st, 2005, 03:52 AM
That link should be at the top of the Ubuntu.com home page.
Again, I understand this point: the UserDocumentation page has been difficult to find. However, this is caused by the fact that the wiki software does not redirect users to the front page of the wiki, which is clearly organised and points at the Documentation (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FrontPage). Instead, it redirects users to the last wiki page they went to, which is really not helpful because it means that no users see the FrontPage, and we end up with loads of threads like this (this is not the first) saying "the wiki is disorganised".

Yes, it is disorganised, however if this bug is fixed, the situation will improve.

We are working hard on the UserDocumentation page, and hopefully it will become a good index of documentation.

Matt

mattheweast
July 21st, 2005, 04:00 AM
Does anybody else hesitate to refer new users to the wiki? (http://wiki.ubuntu.org)

As long as there is a doc team, why not just set up a new user docs-only site with a simple-to-navigate CMS and call it the official ubuntu guide? If people are going to wet their pants if they can't edit a page, let them leave a comment or sign up to be on the doc team.


I'm not sure whether Corey made this clear, so just to repeat: this _will_ be done by breezy. It's likely to be at http://help.ubuntu.com

In the meantime, we'll be setting up our "work in progress" documentation on our server. You can already see previews linked on the page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamProjects - as always, suggestions welcome to the doc team list (http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc)

:)

M

matthew
July 21st, 2005, 04:12 AM
I've been watching the progress that has already been made in editing and shaping the wiki and I am very hopeful and expectant of good things. Up to now, however, I have thought it to be too "geek-oriented" (spoken as a charter member of geekdom) for the average n00b who just wants to know how to do something and couldn't care less about why/how the mechanism works. It is generally more complex than most people want as a starting point. The thread and pages listed above are great starting points, though.

BTW, this is from someone who has contributed to the wiki (as matthew5).

DJ_Max
July 21st, 2005, 04:21 AM
I've been meaning to contribute to the documentation for some time. Just never had the, time.. Now that this thread as come up, I'm porting some docs I wrote on my computer to the wiki that I haven't found on them.

mattheweast
July 21st, 2005, 04:26 AM
Cool! Thanks both of you for your work. Mail the docteam list or come into #ubuntu-doc on irc any time!

M

matthew
July 21st, 2005, 04:32 AM
Meant to say so before, but I have noticed how much work you are doing mattheweast. Great job!

Xian
July 21st, 2005, 04:51 AM
I've been away for a little while and I noticed that the UserDocumentation page has progressed very nicely. I'm very excited to see that the doc team is growing and working on establishing Ubuntu as a distro that provides superior user tutorials and other written resources. It makes supporting new users so much easier, takes a lot of pressure off the mailing lists and forums, and provides a way to really ramp up the reputation points among our peers.

maruchan
July 21st, 2005, 05:02 AM
Okay, I'll admit I had no clue about past wiki criticism. So that's enough prodding from me. Good work to those who have contributed.

poofyhairguy
July 21st, 2005, 08:49 AM
Yes, it is disorganised, however if this bug is fixed, the situation will improve.


Agreed.

rwabel
July 22nd, 2005, 10:28 PM
It's good to see, that people start "accepting" the wiki. I, by myself had the same problem with the wiki. I then came across the UserDocuementation and talked with several of the people to help out.

UserDocumentation really looks good now :-)

I hope even more people will check that site out for information or even contribute to it

Pragmatist
March 22nd, 2006, 05:53 AM
First of all, I've been using Linux for about 6 years now, and this is BY FAR the best forum I've seen; both in terms of content and organization as well as features and a great GUI. :)

This is why I'm spending time here, and why I have a couple of ideas that would, IMHO, make it even better.

My philosophy is that this forum, and Ubuntu in general, would improve not just by providing solutions to problems, but by educating its users as much as possible in general methods and problem solving skills. The advantages are innumerable. There would be an overall raising of the bar, there would be more people able to solve newcomers problems, less dropout rate, frustration level, savings on bandwidth, etc...etc...

Here are a few ideas:

1.) A way to tag posts as solved or unsolved (or other statuses)
2.) Providing posters with "solved" threads related to their question.
3.) A way to tag posts with meta info such as topic (hardware, software, install, etc..)

4.) Ultimately a kind of host/hostess "bot" that walks the user through a series of questions. They wouldn't have to use this, but if it was designed well, it would be in everybody's interest to do so. It would save time. The "bot" could ask simple, pointed, questions like "does this have to do with hardware or software" "What is the brand and model of the device" etc...
Then, the "bot" could return to the user:
(a) "solved" posts related to their problem.
(b) Howtos from the wiki
(c) Link's to packages
(d) In general, just one way to integrate some of the different Ubuntu tools.

I'm not sure how hard this would be, but it could be done in stages, beginning with providing ways to add meta data. Yet another advantage of this meta data would be to provide statistics that could guide the documenation team and wiki in prioritizing its howtos and so on by working on the most popular problems.

Anyway, its an idea. Feedback please?

s|k
March 22nd, 2006, 06:02 AM
4.) Ultimately a kind of host/hostess "bot" that walks the user through a series of questions. They wouldn't have to use this, but if it was designed well, it would be in everybody's interest to do so. It would save time. The "bot" could ask simple, pointed, questions like "does this have to do with hardware or software" "What is the brand and model of the device" etc...
Then, the "bot" could return to the user:
(a) "solved" posts related to their problem.
(b) Howtos from the wiki
(c) Link's to packages
(d) In general, just one way to integrate some of the different Ubuntu tools.

I'm not sure how hard this would be, but it could be done in stages, beginning with providing ways to add meta data. Yet another advantage of this meta data would be to provide statistics that could guide the documenation team and wiki in prioritizing its howtos and so on by working on the most popular problems.

Anyway, its an idea. Feedback please?I'm sure if you made this, the forum would link to you or maybe even host it. ;)

Pragmatist
March 22nd, 2006, 06:43 AM
I'm sure if you made this, the forum would link to you or maybe even host it.
I was waiting for that ;)
Actually, I would be happy to contribute my time and skills to work on this project. One of the first things I would like to know is what technologies are used in the Ubuntu websites/servers etc...
In fact the idea of a bot is not new and there are many examples to draw from. I think HP uses this kind of technology, and, of course, academia has worked on them for a long time. I even think I read somewhere that there is some Linux forum that uses it! I'll have to check.

ssam
March 22nd, 2006, 10:23 AM
#ubuntu on irc has a great bot with a list of answers to common questions. so when someone asks how to get mp3s working someone types in

!mp3
and the bot gives them a useful answer.

could this be worked into the forum some how?

s|k
March 22nd, 2006, 04:47 PM
#ubuntu on irc has a great bot with a list of answers to common questions. so when someone asks how to get mp3s working someone types in

!mp3
and the bot gives them a useful answer.

could this be worked into the forum some how?
You could do it with AJAX or just server side (boring). ;P

Pragmatist
March 22nd, 2006, 06:24 PM
You could do it with AJAX or just server side (boring). ;P
Even though I was talking about using a"bot", maybe we don't need that much versatility.

I'm think about a client-side program to reduce bandwidth. The program (for instance, for the purposes of discussion, let's say a java applet) would just gather information, search several databases, and return an organized response. This would have at least two advantages:

1.) Gives relevant information to the potential poster(related, solved, posts; howtos/guides; etc...) These would be returned to the screen in categories. One box containing links to the Howtos, another with links to related, solved posts, and so on.

2.) Gets relevant information from the user. Depending on the nature of the problem, certain standard information would be requested. For instance, if it were a hardware problem, the user would be asked to add the output of lspci and dmesg and lsmod and so on, to their post.

Both of these don't really require a "bot".

Info from user
Getting the information from the user is trivial; Basic flowchart logic gives a series of finite problem types. Each problem type has a corresponding set of information to be requested from the user.

Info to user
Returning the information is also not that hard. After being asked a series of questions (another flowchart) our program has a bunch of keywords (a bit more than that since our program gets information in response to specific questions, our program has a correlation between the two. This correlation allows the program to search more intelligently--such as what sites to search at, for instance).

One of the key open questions is: What are the different technologies currently used by the different Ubuntu websites/tools? Database, Search feature, server side programs, client-side programs, are the different sites connected in some ways? How hard would it be to have a unified search feature for the different websites?

On this last question, if there were a unified search feature, and there were plenty of meta-data on the different sites, then this would improve things dramatically. For instance, instead of using seperate search engines, our program would just use one. When the data is returned, our program analyses the meta-data to extract basic "type" information such as "is this a howto" "is this a post" "is this a recommendation" etc..etc.. This will allow our program to return an organized reponse to the user.

Any ideas on how we can find out what website/webserver technologies are being used on the Ubuntu sites?

az
March 22nd, 2006, 07:00 PM
Even though I was talking about using a"bot", maybe we don't need that much versatility.

I'm think about a client-side program to reduce bandwidth. The program (for instance, for the purposes of discussion, let's say a java applet) would just gather information, search several databases, and return an organized response.

yeesh! Java doesn't ship with ubuntu! But I see your point. The idea is technology-agnostic.


This would have at least two advantages:

1.) Gives relevant information to the potential poster(related, solved, posts; howtos/guides; etc...) These would be returned to the screen in categories. One box containing links to the Howtos, another with links to related, solved posts, and so on.

2.) Gets relevant information from the user. Depending on the nature of the problem, certain standard information would be requested. For instance, if it were a hardware problem, the user would be asked to add the output of lspci and dmesg and lsmod and so on, to their post.

Both of these don't really require a "bot".


Nor do they require the forums. The forums are too volatile for such a knowledgebase tool. The wiki is too static to be perfect. Anyway, this is a docteam issue. You are talking about Ubuntu documentation at large, not just the posts on the forums. It would best serve the cause to discuss it with the Doc Team.



Info from user
Getting the information from the user is trivial; Basic flowchart logic gives a series of finite problem types. Each problem type has a corresponding set of information to be requested from the user.

Info to user
Returning the information is also not that hard. After being asked a series of questions (another flowchart) our program has a bunch of keywords (a bit more than that since our program gets information in response to specific questions, our program has a correlation between the two. This correlation allows the program to search more intelligently--such as what sites to search at, for instance).

One of the key open questions is: What are the different technologies currently used by the different Ubuntu websites/tools? Database, Search feature, server side programs, client-side programs, are the different sites connected in some ways? How hard would it be to have a unified search feature for the different websites??


In the early days, the docteam had quite a number of discussion regarding such technologies. The problem was that the wiki was supported by Canonical and didn't meet every need perfectly, but it met many more of the needs that other technologies.

The fact that due to security vulnerabilities, James Troup wanted nothing to do with php4 on his servers complicated things. This is also part of the reason why Canonical did not host forums at the beginning.

At the time, the docteam were limited to either using technologies other than php for their documentation portal or find outside hosting. Since php5 is out and the Fridge runs on Drupal (which uses php), I guess this is sorted out. However, the wiki and the docteam mailing list is working out acceptably.

It would be interesting to revisit this. Maybe an interactive yelp?



On this last question, if there were a unified search feature, and there were plenty of meta-data on the different sites, then this would improve things dramatically. For instance, instead of using seperate search engines, our program would just use one. When the data is returned, our program analyses the meta-data to extract basic "type" information such as "is this a howto" "is this a post" "is this a recommendation" etc..etc.. This will allow our program to return an organized reponse to the user.

Any ideas on how we can find out what website/webserver technologies are being used on the Ubuntu sites?

The wiki runs on Moin. The mailing lists are about to be ported over to launchpad, if I understand correctly. There was supposed to be a launchpad authentification plugin for php that would log you into the wiki and any other launchpad-enabled Ubuntu site automatically. Maybe UbuntuGeek can fill you in on how that is going.

Jon Dodson said he could write it, if needed and the last time I checked, the offer still stands.

It would really rock if the forums could offer a mailing list section for the docteam mailing list. A lot of forums users would probably participate in the docteam that way. The forums are probably more relevant to the docteam than is currently exploited.

Pragmatist
March 22nd, 2006, 07:16 PM
Nor do they require the forums. The forums are too volatile for such a knowledgebase tool. The wiki is too static to be perfect. Anyway, this is a docteam issue. You are talking about Ubuntu documentation at large, not just the posts on the forums. It would best serve the cause to discuss it with the Doc Team.

Thank you for your comments. I didn't think of the documentation team. Your totally right that this is too specific for discussion here. However, regarding this part of your statement:

The forums are too volatile for such a knowledgebase tool.
I'm not sure what you mean exactly. The idea I'm thinkin of is to just make the tool available, not force it. For instance, anytime somebody starts a thread, one of links they can press would be labeled "try our---fill in the blank---tool!). Then a smaller link explaining how the tool works. If nobody click's either link, then it is never used. Just like the normal forum search feature. You don't have to use it...but its there.

az
March 22nd, 2006, 07:45 PM
I'm not sure what you mean exactly. The idea I'm thinkin of is to just make the tool available, not force it. For instance, anytime somebody starts a thread, one of links they can press would be labeled "try our---fill in the blank---tool!). Then a smaller link explaining how the tool works. If nobody click's either link, then it is never used. Just like the normal forum search feature. You don't have to use it...but its there.

What I mean is that a forum is best suited for discussion. The end result would be for the user to find proper documentation, right? In the forums, there can be several threads about the same topic. That's great for documentation in the larger sense, but the end-result would be for the user to be pointed to a specific text or ressource, and not neccessarily the discussions pertaining to those texts (or which led to the creation of those texts).

Maybe sometimes the user would need a coarser-grained search tool, but you seem to describe something that incorporates that, but is not limited to that.

Like Scotty says, "the right tool for the right job."

Pragmatist
March 22nd, 2006, 08:22 PM
I think we are in agreement about the usefulness of the kind of tool I describe. We are not completely in agreement about where it belongs, however.


Originally Posted by azz
What I mean is that a forum is best suited for discussion.

Yes and no. By definition a forum is a place for discussion. However, a "help forum" is different. While there certainly can be different opinions on how to install a specific hardware device there are only so many right answers (answers that solve the problem). Please correct me, but my guess is that most of the threads in the beginner forum, if not several others, involve finding solutions to problems. This is different than, say, a forum about ancient chinese philosophy, or opinions on what GUI works best for a forum. Those have more room for opinion and discussion. So forums that focus more on problem solving would benefit the most from a tool such as I describe.


Originally Posted by azz
The end result would be for the user to find proper documentation, right?

My point is that the end result of many of the Ubuntu resources is to solve a problem (and hopefully educate as well...see my previous posts). To that extent, I think it is unnecessary, at best, to create a division between problem solving sources. The tool I suggested would help to unify these sources, and, in doing so, improve all of them.


Originally Posted by azz
...but the end-result would be for the user to be pointed to a specific text or ressource, and not neccessarily the discussions pertaining to those texts (or which led to the creation of those texts).

It is true that forum threads inform documentation creation. However, it is also true that documentation informs forum thread creation. The better the documentation, the less threads, the less posts in threads, the less frustrated OPs, etc.. The two go hand-in-hand. The better they are integrated, the more efficient they both become.

majikstreet
March 22nd, 2006, 09:26 PM
the bot thing sounds like something that microsoft has

az
March 22nd, 2006, 09:26 PM
I think we are in agreement about the usefulness of the kind of tool I describe. We are not completely in agreement about where it belongs, however.



Yes and no. By definition a forum is a place for discussion. However, a "help forum" is different. While there certainly can be different opinions on how to install a specific hardware device there are only so many right answers (answers that solve the problem). Please correct me, but my guess is that most of the threads in the beginner forum, if not several others, involve finding solutions to problems. This is different than, say, a forum about ancient chinese philosophy, or opinions on what GUI works best for a forum. Those have more room for opinion and discussion. So forums that focus more on problem solving would benefit the most from a tool such as I describe.



My point is that the end result of many of the Ubuntu resources is to solve a problem (and hopefully educate as well...see my previous posts). To that extent, I think it is unnecessary, at best, to create a division between problem solving sources. The tool I suggested would help to unify these sources, and, in doing so, improve all of them.



It is true that forum threads inform documentation creation. However, it is also true that documentation informs forum thread creation. The better the documentation, the less threads, the less posts in threads, the less frustrated OPs, etc.. The two go hand-in-hand. The better they are integrated, the more efficient they both become.


I think we agree, but make different assumptions. Yes, a tool which integrates all the different sources of documentation would be best. I am just assuming that the end-user will get more mileage out of a tried-and-true piece of documentation that gets updated periodically than from the thread-of-the-day on the topic. As such, I guess I see this as a tool which incorporates the forums, but is not strictly a "forum tool".

But yeah, don't give me just the one-liner solution, and don't give me the ten pages of discussion about it from people who may or may not know the answer. Give it *all* to me.

Don't get me wrong. I will ***** myself to any degree to make the forums more integrated into the greater ubuntu community and vice versa (at the risk of being banned, actually). I think this is something that can help that. In that respect (and in my opinion), I think it has been discussed before and if you try to provide the forums as a be-all and end-all source of documentation, a couple of bad posts lead to people saying that it is crap, and no one wants to see that happen.

az
March 22nd, 2006, 09:27 PM
the bot thing sounds like something that microsoft has
How well does it work and how can we do it better?

KiwiNZ
March 22nd, 2006, 11:01 PM
to make the forums more integrated into the greater ubuntu community and vice versa (at the risk of being banned, actually). I think this is something that can help that. In that respect (and in my opinion), I think it has been discussed before and if you try to provide the forums as a be-all and end-all source of documentation, a couple of bad posts lead to people saying that it is crap, and no one wants to see that happen.

Can you clarify this a tad

Thanks

az
March 22nd, 2006, 11:56 PM
Can you clarify this a tad

Thanks
This thread:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2005-April/001771.html
and:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2005-April/001753.html


I don't have all the conversations archived in my mailbox, but you really should ask Corey or anyone else from the docteam. You must have been absent (the tsunami) when comments were made about the forums content being "absolute crack".

That is a long time past, and the docteam are much closer to the forums now, but the point is that if you regard the forums as being a singular source of documentation, one good or bad post can make or break the reputation.

I have to reiterate that the people to talk to regarding this are the docteam people.

To be absolutely clear, I also have to say that I think the relationship between the docteam and the forums is a lot stronger now than ever before.

Pragmatist
March 23rd, 2006, 12:23 AM
My earliest motivation stemmed from a desire to know statistical information about my own posts. I felt that if I could know, for example, that 65% of my posts involved hardware questions; or that 90% of my first responses were to provide information from the wiki or www.google.com/linux; or what were the average number of posts per solved thread; or, how many threads that I participated in were solved...etc...etc...

Also, to improve my abilities in helping others here, it would be useful to know similar statistics about the forum as a whole (or at least the beginner forum which is where I tend to respond to posts). Further, I'm planning on contributing to editing some of the numerous wikis that need editing; it would be nice to try and fix those in order of priority. Or, write a howto when I can see that it is sorely needed.

So those were my personal motivations. However, what I meant by "unify" was not that the forum should be the sole source of documentation--to me that is absurd. What I am saying is that every single resource that Ubuntu has should be easily accessible by all the others. When it comes to solving problems this means having a search engine that could equally find related solved posts, related howtos, and anything else related..:) (I need to know more about what all the resources even are--see my point ;)). It is not that documentation is created entirely based on forum posts. It is that the documenation considers all helpful information, which of course would include "solved posts".

The key to all of this is providing meta-data to all documents (including threads and their corresponding posts) so that they can easily be searched or analysed for any number of useful purposes. The exact forms of utilizing that information (bot, unified search engine, individual uses, whatever) are secondary; since, without the meta-data none of it is practically possible.

az
March 23rd, 2006, 01:21 AM
The key to all of this is providing meta-data to all documents (including threads and their corresponding posts) so that they can easily be searched or analysed for any number of useful purposes. The exact forms of utilizing that information (bot, unified search engine, individual uses, whatever) are secondary; since, without the meta-data none of it is practically possible.

Well, for moin-based pages, you can subscribe to be advised of any changes to pages in any section of the wiki, so automating the tagging or part of the tagging for wiki-based documents should not be too hard.

The same goes for mailing lists - you just subscribe the bot to them and stuff them into the database as they come. If the mailing lists do get put into launchpad, it may be even more direct.

Now for the forums, it may not be so easy. vBuletin is proprietary. The big dissadvantages are that you have to *pay* for the source code and any changes you make to the code to add tags to the posts may not make it upstream. That means that your tagging code may not survive different releases and so you will continually have to keep writing it. Maybe there is a way around it.

Maybe the daily IRC logs could somehow be tagged, too?

Are there any other sources of Ubuntu documentation that can be tagged?

So, once you get your database of tags going, you can have many different frontends to it, be it an application that runs on the default ubuntu desktop (like yelp), a web page, a vBuletin plugin, whatever.

Anyone reading this see anything they can do for this effort?

ubuntu-geek
March 23rd, 2006, 02:15 AM
Now for the forums, it may not be so easy. vBuletin is proprietary. The big dissadvantages are that you have to *pay* for the source code and any changes you make to the code to add tags to the posts may not make it upstream. That means that your tagging code may not survive different releases and so you will continually have to keep writing it. Maybe there is a way around it.



As of Vbulletin 3.5 there is an extensive plugin/product system using the vbulletin API that allows users to create almost any type of addon without altering any code.

http://www.vbulletin.com/docs/html/ - More information can be found there.

aysiu
March 23rd, 2006, 02:18 AM
In many ways, I and other veteran forum members operate as living "bots."

Usually when I see a question, the first thing I do is point to one or more "solution" threads or links.

Only if the original post-er has issue with following the directions (or has some unique situation that requires extra care) do I then follow-up with more interactive guidance.

az
March 23rd, 2006, 02:44 AM
As of Vbulletin 3.5 there is an extensive plugin/product system using the vbulletin API that allows users to create almost any type of addon without altering any code.

http://www.vbulletin.com/docs/html/ - More information can be found there.
Super! We're good to go!

ubuntu-geek
March 23rd, 2006, 02:54 AM
Super! We're good to go!
For sure.. A test board can always be setup with access to the API hooks..

az
March 23rd, 2006, 03:14 AM
For sure.. A test board can always be setup with access to the API hooks..
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2006-March/005633.html

naaman
March 23rd, 2006, 11:17 AM
4.) Ultimately a kind of host/hostess "bot" that walks the user through a series of questions. They wouldn't have to use this, but if it was designed well, it would be in everybody's interest to do so. It would save time. The "bot" could ask simple, pointed, questions like "does this have to do with hardware or software" "What is the brand and model of the device" etc...

I think people get creeped out by a computer talking to them - re: Microsoft Word Paperclip and H.A.L.

Pragmatist
March 23rd, 2006, 06:59 PM
Originally Posted by: naaman
I think people get creeped out by a computer talking to them - re: Microsoft Word Paperclip and H.A.L.
LOL :) 'what are you doing dave....'

I agree with you there. Two points though. First, people are extremely comfortable and familiar with "wizards", which is more like what I was talking about. Second, in my most recent post I clarified what I feel is the key issue:


The key to all of this is providing meta-data to all documents (including threads and their corresponding posts) so that they can easily be searched or analysed for any number of useful purposes.

I just relabeled my inital post: Unify Documentation Resources Through Meta-Data

Is there a way to change the title of the thread? This way we can focus on meta-data, rather than on the manifold ways of using the, currently unavailble, meta-data.

jc87
June 21st, 2006, 01:00 PM
5.04 was my first Ubuntu version , and the first Gnu/Linux distro actually being installed on my hard drive (other were just live-cd´s).

I started by ordering the cd´s from shipit (free cd´s , the killer "app" for me:wink: ) , and meanwhile i waited for them to come i started googling for guides.

The first guide i found was the Unofficial Ubuntu Starter Guide (http://ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Dapper) , and i hated it! Why? because i like being able to do things for myself , and the only thing the guide sad was commands to copy/paste , and i like understading and being able to do things on my own!

The second guide i found was Ubuntu howcome (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuHowCome) , it was bloated with too much info that actuall was required , but i loved it! Why? Because it explained a bunch of usefull things , like apt-get , users and permissions , why Ubuntu doesn´t support mp3 out of the box , etc... And after printing , and reading it a couple of times i was ready for the Ubuntu desktop.

So why i´m i talking about this?

It passed a long time since i first installed Ubuntu , i become an experienced user , and i helped a bunch of other users with less knowledges than my ones at #ubuntu @ ptnet , and i realized something :

The current online documentation about Ubuntu is badly organized and insuficient! (With this critic realize i dont want to flamme or troll , my gold is to help with sugestions for improvement)

Why i think this? newcomers to Ubuntu usually have a bunch of questions , and the answers are not usually right out the box avaiable , things like howto to install software , do i need an AV an firewall like in windows , how can i dual-boot windows and Ubuntu , etc.... ,( yes they may exist at forums and so on , but if no one knows there is a problem/situation will they search for the solution before facing it? how can someone google something they dont even know the name?)
, so they end up doing things the wrong way and thinking :

Ubuntu sucks or Ubuntu is hard to use

Yes most guides tell users howto do taks X or Y , but do they explain what task X is about? do they explain the consequences of taks Y? yes you can tell copy/paste this , but will that really help? what is the difference between that and fixing and win-box of your friend which is full of spyware , but you dont tell him howto prevent future spyware?

Recently i started working in a guide (with the help of other members in portuguese community) that would guide users since the beginning of Ubuntu , from instalation to some basic tasks like apt-get , it is inspired in the original howcome wiki , and the goal is to explain things in a easy way.

Is still a sketch , and needs a lot of work , but what matters is that helps users!

Original Portuguese version (http://www.formatds.org/ubuntu/index.php/Ubuntu-noobs)

Web translated version (http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=pt_en&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.formatds.org%2Fubuntu%2Findex .php%2FUbuntu-noobs) (babelfish translation sucks:rolleyes: )

I personally think we need two different kind of guides , one that teaches people to use Ubuntu , other that tells them right away what to do (and not just the second)! Because what kind of freedom of choice do users have if they aren´t informmed about their choices?

Ubuntu is a great OS , but who needs a tool that he cant master? What is the point at math of learning a formula if you dont know to use it? Giving users directions will make their Ubuntu adoption easier , and bug 1 disappear faster:KS

Now what i want to know is what the comunnity thinks!

givré
June 21st, 2006, 01:39 PM
I really like the community documentation, https://help.ubuntu.com/community
It explains things very well, and is not just a copy/paste howto.
I thing the best thing should be to improve this one and make it rocks solid instead of multiply the number of guide, but that's just my point of view (i know that lots of people disagree with that)

John.Michael.Kane
June 21st, 2006, 02:26 PM
jc87 there will never be a one-guide fit's all sorry. Someone will find something wrong with your guide just as you feel you found something wrong with the one's your posted.

Sidenote: You can have look over this if you want UDSF (http://doc.gwos.org/index.php/Main_Page)

jc87
June 21st, 2006, 05:29 PM
jc87 there will never be a one-guide fit's all sorry

You got my idea wrong:rolleyes:

My gold is creating more documentation that will "follow" the user when he gets started , explaining to him the basic of his new OS (software instalation , different Ubuntu versions , etc...) instead of just telling him what to do.

Also i wasn´t talking about fitting all the documentation in a single article , the main article can explain what the user needs to know , each section have a link to a more anal documentation and explanations , and the final section have a bunch of links to stuff the user may need/want after reading the guide.

edit :
Someone will find something wrong with your guide just as you feel you found something wrong with the one's your posted.

That is why there are "forks" ;)

dmann
July 3rd, 2006, 04:21 PM
Hi Guys,

First let me say: ubuntu is awesome.

Now let me add:

http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu has no install guide, not even the most basic guide. Nor does it tell you where to get the guide. It doesn't explain that the guide is included on cd, available in the forums, etc.

I can't believe canonical would expect a user to install their software without some type of guide; I also can't believe that such a guide wouldn't be linked in several places: the about ubuntu, the download page, and the server/desktop pages.

There isn't any documentation that I can find on any of those pages that tell you how to install the software. Even the live cd references don't tell you what you should expect, common problems, etc.



Next, there is no hardware compaibility list that I could find. No recommended minimum cpu speed. Nothing about modem compatibility.

Please canonical, if you are listening, include this somewhere as a link off of one of those pages (preferably all the pages, so that we don't have to hunt for it.).

The kernel version is even referenced in the release notes; why would you include technical information like that without an install guide or hardware compatibility list right there too? which one is more important to most users?

I had to read instructions for installing windows the first time I tried it - I'm sure most people would find some type of guide at least handy to look at.



Now these guides may very well exist. But if they do why are they not right there in the open?

Thanks for your time,

Dan

wolfmaniac
July 3rd, 2006, 04:25 PM
check this

https://help.ubuntu.com/

Jagot
July 3rd, 2006, 04:25 PM
http://psychocats.net/ubuntu/
http://users.bigpond.net.au/hermanzone/
http://www.ubuntu.com/download/releasenotes/606
https://help.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/index.html

T700
July 3rd, 2006, 04:31 PM
Now these guides may very well exist. But if they do why are they not right there in the open?

It's all very easy to find, but you have take some responsibility for your own welfare. On the main page, help is as close as the Support tab. Failing that, type ubuntu installation guide in Google and hit enter.

Linux in general and Ubuntu specifically provides a free feast for the taking, but it does not chew the food for you.

Paul

dmann
July 3rd, 2006, 04:56 PM
Thanks for the replies.

I wasn't asking where to find the documentation; I can do that with google or a search from ubuntu's multiple websites.

What I was asking, and what wasn't answered, was why are none of these documents linked to the 3 main pages where a user would go to read about ubuntu and to download it?

It doen't have _anything_ to do with chewing my food - it has to do with (i'm being frank here) foolishness.

If these documents are available, anwer me this: why are they not linked to on one of those three pages I discussed?

That is the question I'd like answered.

dmann
July 3rd, 2006, 04:59 PM
Out of the offical ubuntu website url's you included, which one specifically discusses supported peripherals and the actual install process?

Not to be rude, but did you read my question and actually read the official ubuntu links you referenced?

Jagot
July 3rd, 2006, 05:05 PM
There is no official guide to the install process, but the process is documented on the other sites I've included in my link.

Some peripherals are documented in 'Community Docs' here:

https://help.ubuntu.com/

For others, search the forums.

Canonical cannot document support for every single piece of hardware. If you want to find out about specific hardware that is not in any of those links then search on these forums. The community is here to help.

dmann
July 3rd, 2006, 05:23 PM
Actually, there appears to be this: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/I386 which looks fairly offical, since it is on the ubuntu.com domain. Why would something like this not be linked to on one of the three main starting pages I mentioned? This document is buried 5 levels down from the main site (five clicks needed from the path I took, which seemed to be the most direct from the main www.ubuntulinux.com site). Five clicks might not seem like a lot - but considering when I do a search from www.ubuntulinux.com for "installation", "installation help", and "installation instructions" and none turn up this document, it's not as easy to find as you all are making it out to be.

If I'm on the download page why wouldn't it make sense to have links directly to the install documents? That seems like the minimum requirement - I'd have it in other places as well, and also make sure that it gets indexed by the search engine.

The same goes for the hardware compatibility.

I know it's difficult to get a huge list of all the hardware that works - but how about getting a list of hardware that is known to not work?

I also tried searching for "hardware", "hardware compatibility", and "modem" and I didn't find much of anything resembling a list to help me determine if my hardware might have the faintest chance of working.

If this distrobution wants to take itself seriously these items need to be addressed.


There is no official guide to the install process, but the process is documented on the other sites I've included in my link.

Some peripherals are documented in 'Community Docs' here:

https://help.ubuntu.com/

For others, search the forums.

Canonical cannot document support for every single piece of hardware. If you want to find out about specific hardware that is not in any of those links then search on these forums. The community is here to help.

st00ner
July 3rd, 2006, 05:24 PM
1. Download a Live CD For your Processor (if its a PC you probobly can just download i386, even if you have an AMD 64 bit processor)

2. Put it in your Cd Drive

3. restart your comp

4. let it boot from CD

5. Start or install ubuntu

6. Double click the install script

7. The rest is self explanatory unless you want to dual boot.

If you want to learn about manaully partitioning, i suggest the gentoo documentation
Ubuntu has to have the easiest installer ever, so your in luck

dmann
July 3rd, 2006, 05:26 PM
By the way, my objective with this thread is to get someone's attention at canonical. I don't see any links on the www.unbuntulinux.com site that allow me to send an email message to the person responsible for the site.

How about making a link for feedback or suggestions, and not requiring a user to dig 5 levels down and hit the wiki or community pages? Many people won't take the time to do that (I almost didn't).

st00ner
July 3rd, 2006, 05:28 PM
i just googled ubuntu wiki, and it was the first result. also, various forums around the net have answers you may be looking for so just search "My problem here ubuntu"

Bloch
July 3rd, 2006, 05:29 PM
I think a newcomer to ubuntu has to understand it is a community developed system. The word "official" has very little meaning.
This can be disconcerting. Questions like "Does ubuntu officially support brand XXX graphics card?" are not the right questions to ask. The place to ask is the forums. Many many experts offer their help their for free.

Technical support is available from Canonical Ltd. for a fee.

Having said that, it is a valid point to make that the introductory page does not have clear pointers to installation guides and get-started guides.

Take a look at it again. You can get the info you need by clicking the tabs "Community" or "Support"
Would it not be better to have a "getting started with ubuntu" tab?
And shouldn't the "Fast Easy Installation" section have a link to an installation guide?
The info is all out there; it's just a question of whether the new user can readily access it. There's no point getting to the perfect installation guide after you've installed the system

Jagot
July 3rd, 2006, 05:30 PM
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Contact

dmann
July 3rd, 2006, 05:35 PM
Thanks for the info, I appreciate it.

My point to this is that such as basic bit of information shouldn't be this hard to come by. It's insane. No company that offers operating system software to end user individuals would leave out this information.

I don't plan on needing the information myself - I've been using linux since redhat 5.1. But what about most other people who are trying it for the first time?

The website and documentation is a mess. The whole search engine needs massive work. Let google do the searching and indexing. Seperate search engines for eacy sub-web is maddening.

I know it's run by mostly volunteers - but there needs to be some goals that are set for the documentation team. Heck if I was going to try linux for the first time I'd try debian or gentoo. Debian has a link for the install instructions right on the main page! Gentoo has it within 3 clearly marked clicks!

Please _SOMEONE_ modify the download page with a link to the install process and any hardware compatibility docs that are around.

Dan


1. Download a Live CD For your Processor (if its a PC you probobly can just download i386, even if you have an AMD 64 bit processor)

2. Put it in your Cd Drive

3. restart your comp

4. let it boot from CD

5. Start or install ubuntu

6. Double click the install script

7. The rest is self explanatory unless you want to dual boot.

If you want to learn about manaully partitioning, i suggest the gentoo documentation
Ubuntu has to have the easiest installer ever, so your in luck

bocmaxima
July 3rd, 2006, 05:36 PM
IMO, its the easiest OS installation there is, and self explanatory.

st00ner
July 3rd, 2006, 05:40 PM
gentoo definitly is not for first time users. When i first tried linux, i could not figure it out, and printing out pages and pages of documentation is not fun. If you can install windows XP without documentation, then you can install ubuntu

dmann
July 3rd, 2006, 05:42 PM
You are absolutely right that the documents do come up if you search from within the wiki. Not if you search from main documentation are though.

All I'm really asking is that they put something on the download page that points to the install guide.

downloading the iso is pointless if I have no freakin clue on how the install works. Putting a disk in my drive and rebooting probably will work - but what if I've never installed an operating system before? Would I know to do that? How many kids (young people) experiment with operating systems? they don't just automatically know how to do it - they have to learn some where. we take for granted how this works because we've done it before. Don't take that for granted.

Jagot
July 3rd, 2006, 05:44 PM
I think that anyone who tries any Linux distro has some interest in computers generally. You're not going to get many computer novices trying Linux - they're all going to stick to Windows which probably came with their computer, and as such, have probably never actually installed an operating system before.

I guess if the userbase for Linux is going to increase then the documentation must improve, but I don't think it's an issue for those who are using it now.

st00ner
July 3rd, 2006, 05:44 PM
good point, and we dont want them formating the wrong partitions =X.
I guess it wouldnt be that hard to add the wiki seach engine to the main page?

dmann
July 3rd, 2006, 05:49 PM
why would the download page give you a link to "burning the iso" and then not tell you what to do with it when it's done?

Some people who are trying this for the first time will get the cd and not have a clue on how to use it.

why wouldn't the instructions be right there on the download page, so that the person could look at the instructions while the download was progressing? That way they would have some idea on how to install this software.

At least say "put the cd in the computer and reboot it, choose your cdrom drive as the boot device" is bettern than nothing.

You can't use the argument that they shouldn't be installing this if they don't know something that simple. we all started somewhere. we can't assume that people will know these types of things.

People might also have questions that the install guide would answer - before they even take the time to download the software, like "will this delete windows?".

aysiu
July 3rd, 2006, 05:51 PM
I don't know the exact procedure for letting Canonical know they need to change the main page, but I can assure you it's not posting a thread in this forum.

Maybe someone who knows more than I do can direct you to the proper channel for your request.

aysiu
July 3rd, 2006, 05:53 PM
why would the download page give you a link to "burning the iso" and then not tell you what to do with it when it's done? It's actually kind of funny.

It's because some technical writer talked about trying to install Ubuntu and burning the CD as data (instead of as a disk image) about eight times.

Someone posted a thread here ridiculing the man (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=134027), and then someone changed the page to include a link to how to burn an ISO.

dmann
July 3rd, 2006, 05:53 PM
Think about how frustrated you would be if this was your first OS install, ever, and the offical website where you download the software from makes the installation instructions very hard to find?

quite a few people don't want to waste their time digging through wiki's and forums. They want a concise document.

bocmaxima
July 3rd, 2006, 05:57 PM
You are absolutely right that the documents do come up if you search from within the wiki. Not if you search from main documentation are though.

All I'm really asking is that they put something on the download page that points to the install guide.

downloading the iso is pointless if I have no freakin clue on how the install works. Putting a disk in my drive and rebooting probably will work - but what if I've never installed an operating system before? Would I know to do that? How many kids (young people) experiment with operating systems? they don't just automatically know how to do it - they have to learn some where. we take for granted how this works because we've done it before. Don't take that for granted.


General Computer knowledge needs to be taken for granted when installing a new OS. If you don't know how to download and iburn an ISO, you shouldnt be installing a new OS. If you dont know how to get your comp to boot from the CDROM, you shouldnt be installing a new OS. If these are the problems someone installing Linux is facing, then they probably need to learn about computing conventions before they start installing OS's (OSes?) will nilly. ITS MADNESS I TELL YOU.

Normally someone coming to Linux knows a little about this. Not knowing simple conventions is going to result in supreme frustration on the users part.


I am just getting into Ubuntu after multiple failed attempts at Distros, and while Ubuntu facilitates things well, you still need a grasp on those conventions.

dmann
July 3rd, 2006, 05:58 PM
check out http://fedora.redhat.com/ .

They have very easy to find instructions for installation.

Ubuntu has very easy to find information regarding what Ubuntu means and what their philosophy is.

rum and monkey
July 3rd, 2006, 06:02 PM
How many kids (young people) experiment with operating systems? they don't just automatically know how to do it - they have to learn some where. we take for granted how this works because we've done it before. Don't take that for granted.

Not many, but I'm one of them (just turned 14 two days ago) and I found the install process amazingly easy. Dual booting (especially from a USB harddrive)- that's another story, but the main process was way simpler than I expected. I actually prefer the main website having no extremely easy to get documentation. I've learned so much from just reading things on the forum, and doing various google searches. Extraneous (sp?) information is really your friend, follow a random link for a bit and you'll end up with something extremely useful at some point. I've learned more in 4 days with this than in my entire life with windows.

dmann
July 3rd, 2006, 06:08 PM
If this is true, why does Best Buy here in the USA sell upgrade versions of Windows XP to the general public?

Next is the chicken and the egg problem: if I don't know how to boot from a cd, I shouldn't install a new OS. If I never install a new OS, when will I learn to boot from a CD? Your logic doesn't make sense (no offense).

We can't assume that because someone has never installed an OS before that they shouldn't install Ubuntu. There is no universal "this is the operating system you should install before all others" mantra.

Fedora and debian both refer to changing the default boot device in the bios:

http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/ch03s06.html.en

http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/fedora-install-guide-en/fc5/ch-beginninginstallation.html


Clearly, they anticipate that some users need to know things that many of us take for granted. And in both cases, the install document is very easy to find and would offer great reading before the install begins.

Dan


General Computer knowledge needs to be taken for granted when installing a new OS. If you don't know how to download and iburn an ISO, you shouldnt be installing a new OS. If you dont know how to get your comp to boot from the CDROM, you shouldnt be installing a new OS. If these are the problems someone installing Linux is facing, then they probably need to learn about computing conventions before they start installing OS's (OSes?) will nilly. ITS MADNESS I TELL YOU.

Normally someone coming to Linux knows a little about this. Not knowing simple conventions is going to result in supreme frustration on the users part.


I am just getting into Ubuntu after multiple failed attempts at Distros, and while Ubuntu facilitates things well, you still need a grasp on those conventions.


i just googled ubuntu wiki, and it was the first result. also, various forums around the net have answers you may be looking for so just search "My problem here ubuntu"

az
July 3rd, 2006, 06:09 PM
There isn't any documentation that I can find on any of those pages that tell you how to install the software. Even the live cd references don't tell you what you should expect, common problems, etc.


See attached screenshots.

aysiu
July 3rd, 2006, 06:13 PM
If you don't know how to download and iburn an ISO, you shouldnt be installing a new OS. If you dont know how to get your comp to boot from the CDROM, you shouldnt be installing a new OS. If these are the problems someone installing Linux is facing, then they probably need to learn about computing conventions before they start installing OS's (OSes?) will nilly. While I agree with your assessment, it never hurts to give people instructions that they may find helpful.

When I first installed a Linux distro, I had no idea what an ISO was or how to burn it. I did a quick Google search and found the instructions (which were not difficult to follow at all), but it can't hurt to save someone a search, right?


If this is true, why does Best Buy here in the USA sell upgrade versions of Windows XP to the general public? Because people upgrade with the CD instead of installing it from scratch. Also, "the general public" includes a lot of people--not all of them are novices. In fact, I know of only one person (out of all my co-workers, friends, relatives) who has bought a legitimate copy of Windows, and she didn't install it--she used it to upgrade Windows ME. She was computer-savvy enough to work out the post-upgrade kinks, too. My mother would not be able to do this.


Next is the chicken and the egg problem: if I don't know how to boot from a cd, I shouldn't install a new OS. If I never install a new OS, when will I learn to boot from a CD? Your logic doesn't make sense (no offense). It's obviously not a chicken and egg problem, as everyone here has, at some point, learned to boot a CD.


We can't assume that because someone has never installed an OS before that they shouldn't install Ubuntu. There is no universal "this is the operating system you should install before all others" mantra. No, but if they can't figure out how to burn an ISO, they're going to have a hell of a time doing something like ndiswrapper or even using Automatix (which is fairly simple).

dmann
July 3rd, 2006, 06:26 PM
Where in your screenshots is the install document referenced? Assuming you went to the main website first, and you don't know where the document is, how many clicks did it take you to find it?

Now look at my screenshots:

main page

http://www.mannitservices.com/fedora/fedora1.jpg

one click later....

http://www.mannitservices.com/fedora/fedora2.jpg

rum and monkey
July 3rd, 2006, 06:31 PM
Where in your screenshots is the install document referenced? Assuming you went to the main website first, and you don't know where the document is, how many clicks did it take you to find it?


It really shouldn't be a question of clicks. If you're too stupid to google something then operating systems really aren't your cup of tea (or ubuntu, for that matter). But let's see... from the main website it took me 2 clicks to get to a wealth of information (the forums) and in the forums there are at the very least, hundreds of guides to do just about everything.

bocmaxima
July 3rd, 2006, 06:34 PM
While I agree with your assessment, it never hurts to give people instructions that they may find helpful.

When I first installed a Linux distro, I had no idea what an ISO was or how to burn it. I did a quick Google search and found the instructions (which were not difficult to follow at all), but it can't hurt to save someone a search, right?


I agree. I didn't mean to come off as not wanting to help, I am just saying that theres a cutoff point to me. I am not going to go up to my grandmother and give her a copy of Ubuntu and go "Check this out, its so simple!", however I might to a friend. Doesnt mean I wouldnt help my grandma if she was interested.

dmann
July 3rd, 2006, 06:35 PM
"Because people upgrade with the CD instead of installing it from scratch."

True.



You said: "It's obviously not a chicken and egg problem, as everyone here has, at some point, learned to boot a CD."

Someone else said: "If you dont know how to get your comp to boot from the CDROM, you shouldnt be installing a new OS."

Let me ask you this: what prompted you and 99% of people in the world to learn to boot from a cd if it wasn't to install an operating system?

Secondly, why do you think Debian and Fedora felt if was important give people information about BIOS and boot device selection?

bocmaxima
July 3rd, 2006, 06:36 PM
from the main website it took me 2 clicks to get to a wealth of information (the forums) and in the forums there are at the very least, hundreds of guides to do just about everything.


Not only that, but using the forums as a guide is not only better, because not all problems are in the same context (eg Compiz on ATI or nVidia), but it also follows the "Ubuntu Principles" as well.

dmann
July 3rd, 2006, 06:38 PM
It really shouldn't be a question of clicks. If you're too stupid to google something then operating systems really aren't your cup of tea (or ubuntu, for that matter). But let's see... from the main website it took me 2 clicks to get to a wealth of information (the forums) and in the forums there are at the very least, hundreds of guides to do just about everything.


Since creating a hyperlink is pretty easy, can you give a good reason why _NOT_ to link this document to the download page?

Do you think that other distros are in error for puting a link right in front of you on their website with no searching needed?

Dan

bocmaxima
July 3rd, 2006, 06:39 PM
"Because people upgrade with the CD instead of installing it from scratch."

True.



You said: "It's obviously not a chicken and egg problem, as everyone here has, at some point, learned to boot a CD."

Someone else said: "If you dont know how to get your comp to boot from the CDROM, you shouldnt be installing a new OS."

Let me ask you this: what prompted you and 99% of people in the world to learn to boot from a cd if it wasn't to install an operating system?

Secondly, why do you think Debian and Fedora felt if was important give people information about BIOS and boot device selection?


Actually, when installing Ubuntu I had a problem with the install hanging. I cleared it up in 15 minutes, by posting in the forums.

Like I just posted before, the forums give you contextual feedback that technical documentation could never attain.

Really, I dont see your problem outside of the fact that the Ubuntu site doesnt have what you want in the format you want it and where you want it.

dmann
July 3rd, 2006, 06:42 PM
Why is it that most people seem to think that it's illogical to have this information right on the download page or off the main desktop/server description page?

It's almost like people are defending/creating reasons why _NOT_ to have this information available right there.

to download the software you pretty much need to be on the download page - if you are there already and you can infer someone is planning on downloading the software, doesn't it just _MAKE_SENSE_ to put the link there?

I can't believe that most of you guys didn't just say "good idea".

Dan

dmann
July 3rd, 2006, 06:44 PM
I've created a new software app. You want to use it.

Would you rather that

A. I provide you with a link to the document from the same place that you download the software

or

B. I assume you will search my website to find it?

rum and monkey
July 3rd, 2006, 06:46 PM
Since creating a hyperlink is pretty easy, can you give a good reason why _NOT_ to link this document to the download page?

Do you think that other distros are in error for puting a link right in front of you on their website with no searching needed?



It's not an extremely good reason, but there's really no need for it. You guys are really underestimating the skill of some of the kids out there today. Please don't use the argument "what about the rest of the kids?". The rest of the kids really don't care about operating systems and such, they're perfectly happy using windows to frag the hell out of people.

No, I don't, but as I said before in my earlier post:


How many kids (young people) experiment with operating systems? they don't just automatically know how to do it - they have to learn some where. we take for granted how this works because we've done it before. Don't take that for granted.

Not many, but I'm one of them (just turned 14 two days ago) and I found the install process amazingly easy. Dual booting (especially from a USB harddrive)- that's another story, but the main process was way simpler than I expected. I actually prefer the main website having no extremely easy to get documentation. I've learned so much from just reading things on the forum, and doing various google searches. Extraneous (sp?) information is really your friend, follow a random link for a bit and you'll end up with something extremely useful at some point. I've learned more in 4 days with this than in my entire life with windows.
It's (or atleast it seems to be) more useful in the long run to find the information yourself.

keith whitehouse
July 3rd, 2006, 06:47 PM
Hi dmann,

you have obviously gone to a lot of time and trouble putting pen to paper so to speak, why not end the thread and then take the time to make a contribution to the wiki that would benefit all future newcomers. Doing is always better than complaining.

best regards keith

bocmaxima
July 3rd, 2006, 06:47 PM
Why is it that most people seem to think that it's illogical to have this information right on the download page or off the main desktop/server description page?

It's almost like people are defending/creating reasons why _NOT_ to have this information available right there.

to download the software you pretty much need to be on the download page - if you are there already and you can infer someone is planning on downloading the software, doesn't it just _MAKE_SENSE_ to put the link there?

I can't believe that most of you guys didn't just say "good idea".

Dan


I think its because its not that big of an issue, really.

dmann
July 3rd, 2006, 06:54 PM
I think its because its not that big of an issue, really.


I can't believe you are saying that. This is like the twilight zone. How can this not be a big issue? Canonical is trying to be professional with this distro. This type of thing is just imho common sense.

To answer the other person's question:

I would love to change it - but I don't want to change the wiki, that's the point, I want the main site changed.

The main website doesn't seem to have a suggestion box.

I don't know who to email regarding this - I was hoping that one of the admins would read this and make the change.

Lastly, because i care about linux. Otherwise I wouldn't have wasted any time at all.

And, I have contributed documentation in the past, for breezy.

rum and monkey
July 3rd, 2006, 06:57 PM
It doesn't seem like a big deal to me, either. Also, I think canonical is doing a pretty damn good job for everything being free on here.

bocmaxima
July 3rd, 2006, 07:00 PM
I can't believe you are saying that. This is like the twilight zone. How can this not be a big issue? Canonical is trying to be professional with this distro. This type of thing is just imho common sense.


So they arent professional because the installation docs arent on the download page, they are click away?

I think it is a good idea, but I also think youre blowing it out of proportion.

dmann
July 3rd, 2006, 07:04 PM
So they arent professional because the installation docs arent on the download page, they are click away?

I think it is a good idea, but I also think youre blowing it out of proportion.


Well, we'll agree to disagree.

I emailed canonical and someone on the documentationt team about it. I hope it gets fixed but I don't know if the email addresses I sent to are active.

I am surprised at the reaction I got from the forum here. I truly am. I was trying to be helpful.

tonyr
July 3rd, 2006, 07:06 PM
This is one of the most engaging threads I've read in a while. LOL at aysiu's anecdote
about the technical writer's instruction on burning an image. I wonder where that writer
is now (eight times????).

Canonical, Ltd. has a link at the bottom of the ubuntu.com page , and guess
what? There is a Contact tab at their page right there where you would expect it to
be.

I admit that I am no novice, but I expect, and it seems logical to me, to find Installation
instructions associated with the Download instructions, and there certainly is a
link on the ubuntu.com Download page for Release Notes, which
includes, among other things, minimum suggested configurations. Still, it IS several
levels down, and still does not have a link to detailed installation instructions.

As to what level of expertise is required to install an OS, I don't think that is
a question that has a definitive answer, and one that certainly will not be resolved here.
(I think aysiu has written about the difference between Computer Science
and Computer Literacy.) I would think it is at least common courtesy for a major
proponent like ubuntu.com to expect that some users are less skilled than
others, and to provide installation information. If I were me (and I'm thinking, therefore
I must be) I would take my own advice, and aysiu's, and forward this
comment to Canonical.

dmann
July 3rd, 2006, 07:10 PM
Bravo tonyr, you followed my point exactly and you engaged me with the spirit I expected of this community.

I did end up following the link to canonical and emailed them at their contact address.

Thank you for replying.

Dan


This is one of the most engaging threads I've read in a while. LOL at aysiu's anecdote
about the technical writer's instruction on burning an image. I wonder where that writer
is now (eight times????).

Canonical, Ltd. has a link at the bottom of the ubuntu.com page , and guess
what? There is a Contact tab at their page right there where you would expect it to
be.

I admit that I am no novice, but I expect, and it seems logical to me, to find Installation
instructions associated with the Download instructions, and there certainly is a
link on the ubuntu.com Download page for Release Notes, which
includes, among other things, minimum suggested configurations. Still, it IS several
levels down, and still does not have a link to detailed installation instructions.

As to what level of expertise is required to install an OS, I don't think that is
a question that has a definitive answer, and one that certainly will not be resolved here.
(I think aysiu has written abiut the difference between Computer Science
and Computer Literacy) I would think it is at least common courtesy for a major
proponent like ubuntu.com to expect that some users are less skilled than
others, and to provide installation information. If I were me (and I'm thinking, therefore
I must be) I would take my own advice, and aysiu's, and forward this
comment to Canonical.

aysiu
July 3rd, 2006, 07:10 PM
So they arent professional because the installation docs arent on the download page, they are click away?

I think it is a good idea, but I also think youre blowing it out of proportion. That about sums it up for me. Obviously, Ubuntu is one of the most popular (if not the most popular) Linux distros out there, and not having a direct link on the front page hasn't stopped that from happening.

Is your proposal a good idea? Sure.
Is it as urgent as you're making it sound? No.


Let me ask you this: what prompted you and 99% of people in the world to learn to boot from a cd if it wasn't to install an operating system? This is irrelevant. Anyone who has the know-how and/or determination and aptitude to install an operating system will quickly learn how to boot from CD--that's the point. If you can't figure it out, then you'll have a lot of trouble getting a new operating system set up.


Secondly, why do you think Debian and Fedora felt if was important give people information about BIOS and boot device selection? Maybe they don't think it's "important," just a good idea, which is what a few people in this thread have already said: your idea is not a bad idea--it's just not life-and-death urgent.


Since creating a hyperlink is pretty easy, can you give a good reason why _NOT_ to link this document to the download page?

Do you think that other distros are in error for puting a link right in front of you on their website with no searching needed? Once again, you're missing the point. I and a few others here think it is a good idea to put a link on the main page.

Good suggestion. Bravo.

It's not like my family is about to be drowned or the stock market is crashing or a huge asteroid is going to hit earth in two days.

It's a missing link. It's not that big a deal.

Instead of arguing with people that it's an urgent matter, why don't you ask people how to suggest this to Canonical? We here are other users, and we don't have any more power to enact change than you do.

aysiu
July 3rd, 2006, 07:14 PM
I am surprised at the reaction I got from the forum here. I truly am. I was trying to be helpful. Well, I think you would have had better results if you had titled your thread
Should we have installation instructions link on the main website? instead of
Poor documentation on the main website should be addressed and maybe started off your first post something like this:
I realize that most people who install an operating system might be savvy enough to find answers to basic questions on their own (things like burning an ISO, installing Ubuntu, installing software), but I noticed that there are a plethora of good sites for documentation but none are linked to directly off the main Ubuntu website.

Do people think it's a good idea to link to one of these directly? And, if so, how can I let Canonical know about it?

dmann
July 3rd, 2006, 07:23 PM
It's a missing link to the installation instructions. How can that not be a big deal?

I guess a better point would be "why doesn't that bother you?".

me to newbie: go download ubuntu, it's awesome.

newbie: cool. I don't want to wipe out windows cause i have a lot of stuff saved on their, will it work?

me: yep, check out the instructions it'll tell you exactly what you need to know before you start.

newbie: ok, I downloaded iso and followed the burning instructions. where are the install instructions?

me: oh - do a search you'll find them

newbie: hmm...I went to help.unbuntu.com and read the desktop guide but there was nothing about the bootloader settings or partitioning.

me: remember what I said? do a search!

newbie: ok, I searched but I can't find it still.

me: oh - search the wiki not the main site, or search the forum, I'm sure there's a link to the document in the forum.

newbie: ok

me: aren't you glad the document you needed was so buried? now you know that the search engine for the main site and the wiki aren't integrated. also, you now know that the help.ubuntu.com 6.06 documentation tells you how to install applications but not how to install ubuntu itself. Think about how much more versed in ubuntu technology you are!


That about sums it up for me. Obviously, Ubuntu is one of the most popular (if not the most popular) Linux distros out there, and not having a direct link on the front page hasn't stopped that from happening.

Is your proposal a good idea? Sure.
Is it as urgent as you're making it sound? No.

This is irrelevant. Anyone who has the know-how and/or determination and aptitude to install an operating system will quickly learn how to boot from CD--that's the point. If you can't figure it out, then you'll have a lot of trouble getting a new operating system set up.

Maybe they don't think it's "important," just a good idea, which is what a few people in this thread have already said: your idea is not a bad idea--it's just not life-and-death urgent.

Once again, you're missing the point. I and a few others here think it is a good idea to put a link on the main page.

Good suggestion. Bravo.

It's not like my family is about to be drowned or the stock market is crashing or a huge asteroid is going to hit earth in two days.

It's a missing link. It's not that big a deal.

Instead of arguing with people that it's an urgent matter, why don't you ask people how to suggest this to Canonical? We here are other users, and we don't have any more power to enact change than you do.

mattheweast
July 3rd, 2006, 07:26 PM
Hi there.

Someone emailed me to bring this thread to my attention. I haven't read all of it yet, but two quick points should be enough to get you started:
1. The documentation is under the "Support" tab, and I think this is quite discoverable. However I intend to develop discussions about having a "Documentation" tab.
2. You can file bug reports about the website at https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-website/+bugs and about the documentation at https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-doc/+bugs

If you file bugs, please adopt a constructive and positive tone.

Matt

Bloch
July 3rd, 2006, 07:30 PM
dmann:
You have a valid point of view. I am surprised at some of the negative reaction. I encourage you to make some report/suggestions using the links Jagot suggested.
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Contact


If you don't know how to download and iburn an ISO, you shouldnt be installing a new OS. If you dont know how to get your comp to boot from the CDROM, you shouldnt be installing a new OS.
The first time I burnt an ISO was when I installed linux. I did not know what an ISO was at that time. The first time I booted from a CD was when I installed linux.


You're not going to get many computer novices trying Linux - they're all going to stick to Windows which probably came with their computer, and as such, have probably never actually installed an operating system before.

Teenage kids who are given a secondhand computer with a decaying windows installation are moving to linux. What does the author of this statement think? That people don't choose linux for practical reasons, but only as a geeky experiment?


If these are the problems someone installing Linux is facing, then they probably need to learn about computing conventions before they start installing OS's (OSes?) will nilly. ITS MADNESS I TELL YOU.

They need to install their system correctly first. Not everyone can afford a new computer. Not everyone wants to install bootleg windows.


It's (or atleast it seems to be) more useful in the long run to find the information yourself.

A lot of these comments come from the perspective of a user in the wealthy "western" countries, where money plays little role in choice of computer and operating system.
There are many many users of old out-of-date windows computers who need ubuntu. There are countries with lower profit margins where the true price of windows filters down to the customer and a linux computer can be signbificantly cheaper. (I have read some reports that in the USA a laptop with no operating system can be more expensive than one with windows)


If you're too stupid to google something then operating systems really aren't your cup of tea (or ubuntu, for that matter).
New, inexperienced users should be encouraged to use only information on the ubuntu site. There is an absolute jungle of info out there concerning linux. Most of it is out of date and/or will not work with your system. Would you really recommend someone to google "linux, connect modem" ??? The info is there, on the ubuntu site and associated wiki.

If there is a better way to organise that info, I'm all for that. Go for it, dmann.

dmann
July 3rd, 2006, 07:32 PM
I'm sorry, I didn't read this part of your response:

"Instead of arguing with people that it's an urgent matter, why don't you ask people how to suggest this to Canonical? We here are other users, and we don't have any more power to enact change than you do."

I'm sorry it sounded like arguing. That's not my point or intention. I do want canonical to change it, and I would like advice on how to reach them.

It's not clear to me how the whole website works. It appears that in somesections the website can be edited directly, while in others it appears to be static. I was hoping that someone here could change the static part.

I was also hoping there would have been a different response comming from the community, however. It's like this isn't a serious issue whatsoever - or that it's even stupid, or that it's to suggest that if you can't find the document you shouldn't be installing the software.

To me it was a matter of seeing an area that needed improvement and improving it.

To me, not having the instructions right there seemed like a glaring mistake.

I don't know about you, but I read instructions for things that I install even if I've installed something similar in the past. For me that's the quickest and most efficient way to find out if something has changed.

dmann
July 3rd, 2006, 07:33 PM
I will do that, thanks for your response.

Dan


Hi there.

Someone emailed me to bring this thread to my attention. I haven't read all of it yet, but two quick points should be enough to get you started:
1. The documentation is under the "Support" tab, and I think this is quite discoverable. However I intend to develop discussions about having a "Documentation" tab.
2. You can file bug reports about the website at https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-website/+bugs and about the documentation at https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-doc/+bugs

If you file bugs, please adopt a constructive and positive tone.

Matt

dmann
July 3rd, 2006, 07:35 PM
Thanks Bloch. I learned to how to boot from CD and burn an ISO for the first time installing linux. I used the install guide (numerous times as I learned details about filesystems and partitioning) over and over.

I will file a bug report as Matthew suggested.

Thanks,

Dan


dmann:
You have a valid point of view. I am surprised at some of the negative reaction. I encourage you to make some report/suggestions using the links Jagot suggested.
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Contact


The first time I burnt an ISO was when I installed linux. I did not know what an ISO was at that time. The first time I booted from a CD was when I installed linux.


Teenage kids who are given a secondhand computer with a decaying windows installation are moving to linux. What does the author of this statement think? That people don't choose linux for practical reasons, but only as a geeky experiment?


They need to install their system correctly first. Not everyone can afford a new computer. Not everyone wants to install bootleg windows.



A lot of these comments come from the perspective of a user in the wealthy "western" countries, where money plays little role in choice of computer and operating system.
There are many many users of old out-of-date windows computers who need ubuntu. There are countries with lower profit margins where the true price of windows filters down to the customer and a linux computer can be signbificantly cheaper. (I have read some reports that in the USA a laptop with no operating system can be more expensive than one with windows)


New, inexperienced users should be encouraged to use only information on the ubuntu site. There is an absolute jungle of info out there concerning linux. Most of it is out of date and/or will not work with your system. Would you really recommend someone to google "linux, connect modem" ??? The info is there, on the ubuntu site and associated wiki.

If there is a better way to organise that info, I'm all for that. Go for it, dmann.

dmann
July 3rd, 2006, 07:46 PM
Bug report filed:

https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-website/+bug/51769

Dan

confused57
July 3rd, 2006, 07:46 PM
Yes, it was pretty difficult finding documentation:
1.)Went to Ubuntu.com
2.)Clicked on "Support"
3.)Clicked on "Documentation"
4.)Clicked on "User Documentation"
Then there was documentation in "Start Here", which included how to burn
an iso, etc.

I guess it needs to be easier.

dmann
July 3rd, 2006, 07:57 PM
confused57, thank you very much for taking the time to investigate my claim. Once you get the the Documentation page it's not clear which link will take you to the install guide.


I really do think ubuntu is special, and I've been using it as my desktop distro since it first came out.

I'm hopeful that if the website is modified to make the documentation easier to find that it will help people.


Dan



Yes, it was pretty difficult finding documentation:
1.)Went to Ubuntu.com
2.)Clicked on "Support"
3.)Clicked on "Documentation"
4.)Clicked on "User Documentation"
Then there was documentation in "Start Here", which included how to burn
an iso, etc.

I guess it needs to be easier.

wpshooter
July 3rd, 2006, 08:14 PM
Bug report filed:

https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-website/+bug/51769

Dan

Dear dmann:

Thank you for doing that. That is what I was going to suggest that you do.

I don't think you have and will get much support for your type of suggestion on this forum. Many posters here seem to be sort of satisfied with the status quo.

Most of the posters here are to young to remember the days when companies like IBM wrote hard bound paper documentations of all of their various o/s platforms as well as their applications (and no, I am not suggesting that anyone offer paper copies of their documentation) that were arranged in a heircharical order that made logical sense to anyone from the most elementary of computer users to the most advanced systems analyst. Let me note that the only other software developer that I ever saw that took pains similar to IBMs in documenting their software was a company called PDS (Parameter Driven Software) that developed accounting software packages for Unix based systems back in the early to mid 1980s.

Back in the old days of programming there used to be a theory in writing software and documentation for that software that was referred to as "the top down theory".

Somewhere along the way this great form of writing software and the supporting documentation was lost/abandoned (WHAT A SHAME).

Therefore, now most all of computer related software, etc. including internet website development has degenerated into a very poor shadow of the care and extreme thought that used to go into the computer software development process.

However for your comfort, let me say that I strongly believe that the developers of Ubuntu will eventually get around to doing a better/more logical/proper flowing documentation scheme for their O/S. Keep bugging them about it to see if we can speed up the process.

Thanks for your concern and good thought processes.

confused57
July 3rd, 2006, 08:16 PM
confused57, thank you very much for taking the time to investigate my claim. Once you get the the Documentation page it's not clear which link will take you to the install guide.


I really do think ubuntu is special, and I've been using it as my desktop distro since it first came out.

I'm hopeful that if the website is modified to make the documentation easier to find that it will help people.


Dan

dmann, you do have a good point that it should be made as easy as possible for new users to find "easy to follow" instructions...it might not be so intuitive for absolute beginners to know which links to click first, it'll definitely take a little "trial & error".

mattheweast
July 28th, 2006, 04:07 PM
Hi all,

Recently the community contributed documentation was moved onto its own wiki on the documentation website. I'm interested in hearing your feedback about how the site could be improved, in terms of usability, look, and so on.

https://help.ubuntu.com/community

Thanks for your thoughts!

Matt

mattheweast
August 2nd, 2006, 11:45 AM
No replies in 4 days? That's terrible, c'mon let's hear your thoughts.

beniwtv
August 2nd, 2006, 12:07 PM
No replies in 4 days? That's terrible, c'mon let's hear your thoughts.

I think it's pretty good right now. Don't would change anything so far :mrgreen:

David TAkle
August 17th, 2006, 07:06 AM
I was getting tired of Win98 deteriorating over time and having to reinstall it every year to get the bugs out. But I've been trying for a week, nearly 10 hours a day, to make the switch to Ubuntu, and I have just about reached my limit for continual frustration.

The install was flawless, and the ease with which I could replace Office was encouraging. My real problem was a couple of Windows applications that I really needed to bring with me. So much of the last week has been spent on trying to get some form of virtual maching working. I've tried several. And nearly everything I've tried to do has required literally hours of combing the internet for scraps of information.

The problem with Linux ?

#1. Documentation
I expected a learning curve, but this is insane. There are two forms. One is written by kindergarten teachers and tells me absolutely nothing. The other is written by hackers and can only be understood by experineced hackers. Trying to learn this stuff is like moving to Zimbabwe and picking up the language. If Linux proponents really want to compete with Windows, someone needs to write some decent bridge material in real English.

#2. Forums
When people ask a sensible question like, "How do I transfer files between the Host and a VM Guest?" they get answers like "just install widget bubba with the thingamabob and configure it to meet your needs". Why do you do that?

#3. Attitude
Whenever someone levels a critique of Linux, the responses are usually one of the following:
a. It's free ... what did you expect?
b. Did you think it would be easy?
c. Microsoft sucks too
This leads me to believe that most Linux users must be in the 7th grade. Which explains the documentation problem mentioned earlier. The point is that Linux attempts to be a viable alternative to Windows. It certainly has that potential. What is lacking is not more development ... it is already a great system. What it needs is a more learner-friendly environment. Having the best system in the world is a useless accomplishment if the average person is unable to use it.

It doesn't have to be this hard.

Boomy
August 17th, 2006, 07:24 AM
You know you'll probably get flamed like a mofo, but I agree with alot of what you're saying. It's true.

what windows apps are you having trouble with?

aysiu
August 17th, 2006, 07:35 AM
#1. Documentation
I expected a learning curve, but this is insane. There are two forms. One is written by kindergarten teachers and tells me absolutely nothing. The other is written by hackers and can only be understood by experineced hackers. Trying to learn this stuff is like moving to Zimbabwe and picking up the language. If Linux proponents really want to compete with Windows, someone needs to write some decent bridge material in real English. As someone who writes documentation and used to teach high school English, I'm interested in what you would consider "decent bridge material." Do you have some examples you could link to of what "decent bridge material" is (doesn't have to be for Linux--any kind of software-related documentation will do)?

Can you also provide examples of the kindergarten/hacker tutorials you've come across?

There's generally a sense in the documentation arena that if you don't like the way it's being done, improve it. Simply saying it is bad doesn't really help. Criticism has to be specific to make change, and even better than criticism is inspiration--write some good documentation yourself. You'd be surprised at how much you know.



#2. Forums
When people ask a sensible question like, "How do I transfer files between the Host and a VM Guest?" they get answers like "just install widget bubba with the thingamabob and configure it to meet your needs". Why do you do that? I guess people figure if you know how to do VM stuff that you are savvy enough to install widget bubba with the thingamabob. If you don't understand, just ask for more details, "I'm sorry. That may be a good solution, but I have no idea what you just said. Can you give me a step by step of how to do that? I'm kind of a new user. Thanks." You'll find people on these forums will be quite accommodating to that kind of request expressed in that fashion.



#3. Attitude
Whenever someone levels a critique of Linux, the responses are usually one of the following:
a. It's free ... what did you expect?
b. Did you think it would be easy?
c. Microsoft sucks too Those are three typical responses, but there are d. and e. and f. and all the way to z. probably. My response is "quit whining and do something about it (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=78741&highlight=whining)."

And, in all fairness, the people who level "critiques" of Linux in these forums tend to have a pretty 7th grade attitude themselves. Rarely do you get a mature and even-handed critique. It's usually vitriolic flamebait. Read some examples here. (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=219243)

23meg
August 17th, 2006, 07:36 AM
Trying to learn this stuff is like moving to Zimbabwe and picking up the language. If Linux proponents really want to compete with Windows, someone needs to write some decent bridge material in real English.Like this (http://help.ubuntu.com)? Or this (http://monkeyblog.org/ubuntu/installing/), or this (http://ubuntuguide.org)? There's plenty of it, and when you can't find the help you're looking for in prewritten documents, there's the forums and mailing lists and IRC channels full of people more than willing to help you with specific problems.

When people ask a sensible question like, "How do I transfer files between the Host and a VM Guest?" they get answers like "just install widget bubba with the thingamabob and configure it to meet your needs". Why do you do that?Maybe because that's what you should do to transfer files? If that's too vague for and you can't figure out what exactly to do, what the next steps you should be, you can always ask further. Did you?

Whenever someone levels a critique of Linux, the responses are usually one of the following:

a. It's free ... what did you expect?This is just plain wrong. I've been on these forums for more than a year and I don't remember seeing this attitude even once. You may have seen it elsewhere; you won't see it here.

b. Did you think it would be easy?Did you? You're learning to use a new operating system. You should expect a few stumbling blocks at best.

c. Microsoft sucks tooI don't see this given as an excuse for the shortcomings of Ubuntu / Linux here. We do have many people who think Microsoft products suck, along with many who are quite happy with them, but "Windows isn't any better" isn't really put forward as an excuse for Ubuntu's shortcomings.

This leads me to believe that most Linux users must be in the 7th grade. You're wrong, we have people from all age groups.
Which explains the documentation problem mentioned earlier.It doesn't, obviously, and many people will take this as an offensive statement.

Having the best system in the world is a useless accomplishment if the average person is unable to use it. It's not; averaging our endeavors solely to account for the criteria of the "average person", whoever they may be, will confine us to endless mediocrity, but in complete disregard of that fact, we have tens of thousands of non-technical users enjoying Ubuntu. Imagine yourself as an exception rather than a base for generalization for a moment.

It doesn't have to be this hard.
It's not too hard. Stick around, read some docs, ask questions (no matter how naive; they'll be welcome) and chances are you'll get it.

Buffalo Soldier
August 17th, 2006, 07:44 AM
#1. Documentation

a. Until Ubuntu/Canonical can afford to divert precious resources to documentation, what we can hope for is for the number volunters to write the documentation to increase.

b. If you have any specific and constructive ideas, critism, comments on the documentation. Feel free to share that with the documenatation team. Better yet, when you have gained enough skill in Ubuntu and if you still remember this frustration, join the Ubuntu documentation team later on and start contributing to improve the documentation for future users.

c. Hope and pray more people or company will go for the paid support for Ubuntu so that there will be more resources to be spread around areas such as hiring professional writers to write the documentation. Better yet, start introducing Ubuntu to companies that you know that are willing to pay for the official support and start the ball rolling.


#2. Forums

Have you been to any other forums besides Ubuntuforums? :) That might give you a different perspective on the friendliness or lack-of-friendliness here.

Paid fulltime customer support staff may have the luxury to hand hold you all the way. But for a volunter who's actually doing some other work or studying for some midterm, it's kind of selfish to be asking for more.

To be honest this is one of the most (if not the most) friendly volunter-run support forum I have ever seen.


#3. Attitude

The problem with introducing new things (ideas, methods and etc) is not the new ideas itself, but getting out or throwing away the old ideas or ways of doing things.

Being raised since early childhood with MS-DOS, Win 3.11 till Win XP... I feel your pain. It sucks when you have to UNLEARN the old ways and relearn something new.

But trust me, at the end of the day... the feeling of satisfaction and comfort of using this gem of an OS is well worth the price of jumping across some hoops :)

aysiu
August 17th, 2006, 07:47 AM
Looking at your posting history, I don't see what right you have to complain.

adding/removing software (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=237880):
You asked a question, got two responses within an hour. Three hours later, you asked a follow-up question, and got another response within the hour. No one in that thread acted like a 7th grader. No one used complicated lingo or terminal commands.

Where to Post questions ?? (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=235945):
You asked a question and got two responses within a day (possibly within the hour, I can't tell since it was three weeks ago). No one used any complicated jargon or technical terms. You asked where to post questions about VMWare, and people told you.

Where are authentication Keys ? (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=220017):
You seemed to get quite a few responses. mlind, in post #8, addresses a bunch of your questions specifically, and then after three weeks, you never followed up to say whether things worked out for you or not.

HowTo: Windows (XP) on Ubuntu with VMWare Server (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1388431#post1388431):
You said
What happened to this issue ??
I've got basically the same problems and I cannot find any cures.
#1 problem: How can I move files between UBUNTU host and Win98 Guest ?? Seems to me this would be one of the main reasons for running a VM and there ought to be a way. Someone else replied (again, within the hour)
i simply made a share folder in my ubuntu, and axs it via the network in the windowsXP i installed in vmware. pretty simple --hope this helps. You replied
Just creates more questions....
1. How do I create a shared folder in ubuntu
2. How do I use the network (Win9 to access shared folders on the system? And that was an hour ago with no response. An hour ago.

So what were the big words that were too hard to understand? I think axs was intended to be shorthand (like IM-speak) for access. Nevertheless, you did the right thing by asking how to create a shared folder, and someone will probably respond to you eventually. It's been an hour.

As someone else mentioned before, this is a volunteer forum. Volunteers are any random user who happen to have internet access and signs up for these forums. You're actually quite lucky to be getting the kind of support you're getting right now!

If you want better support, pay Canonical for it. (http://www.ubuntu.com/support/paid)

mgpower0
August 17th, 2006, 08:09 AM
I've found the posts in this forum very easy to follow and the language used to describe the processes involed neither childish or too technical. So far I have managed to install and set up drivers for my Nvidia card, drivers for my Dell printer(lexmark ones (never would have worked that out if not for this forum))all codecs needed to play my mp3 files and all types of DVD and video files. Have installed XGL-compiz which worked perfectly first time through threads in this forum. I would like to thank everone that puts there time and effort into this forum for making Linux easier to set up for NOOBs like me. Like Ubuntu so much that I have torched Windows all together and am now running a fully linux box.:D Thanks again peoples

aysiu
August 17th, 2006, 08:55 AM
It's funny--it was Ubuntu's forums and documentation that drew me to Ubuntu.

I was previously using Mepis, which I still think is technically "better" for new users (has more GUI frontends for things and proprietary codecs preinstalled). Mepis' users weren't that knowledgeable, though, and the documentation for Mepis was scant.

Once I stumbled upon http://www.ubuntuguide.org, I was a near convert. It was the forums here (the ones we're posting on right now) that made me a full Ubuntu convert.

People here were knowledgeable and friendly. And I even grew to appreciate terminal commands, as I could just copy and paste them into the terminal and have stuff happen.

Don't be fooled by my bean count (which just means I post a lot). I've been using Linux only a year and four months, Ubuntu only a year and three months, and I do not have a background in computer science. Somehow, with the documentation and users here, I managed to get everything up and running just the way I like it.

Soarer
August 17th, 2006, 09:05 AM
I understand the frustration expressed by David TAkle, but I think it needs a little perspective.

He has installed a new operating system, and it all works fine apparently, out of the box. He then wants to run software designed & coded for a completely different operating system. As a 20+ year IT veteran, it isn't surprising to me that its complicated - its surprising that you can do it at all. And for free (minus some time invested).

It also seems to me that Cannonical charge less for support, including telephone support, than some others do just to buy the bare OS.

As my mother would say, sometimes we need to count our blessings before complaining about the small stuff. ;)

David TAkle
August 19th, 2006, 08:17 PM
It's been interesting to see the responses ....

As for the documentation issue, to be fair, the stuff I've seen on the Ubuntu help site is actually quite good. It is written at a reasonable level, and it's only real shortcoming is that it is just scratching the surface of what needs to be covered. I expect that time will make a difference. I haven't had time to browse the Wiki site, but that might have the best promise, provided the technical terms get properly indexed in each article, so that people can pick and choose what they need more info about.

The problem about people having time to document really did not need to be pointed out, esp. comments like "if you don't like it then write it yourself". That was a prime example of what I was trying to point out, and actually helps to make my case. That it is difficult to write good documentation is no mystery. My point still stands that without the necessary documentation, the Linux community will be restricted to the very few who are determined to do the tremendous effort it currently takes to learn this stuff. Broader appeal will require better communication. As for contributing, I'm afraid that after a couple weeks of frustration I can barely retrace my steps and in some cases I'm no longer sure which things fixed my problems. To write something useful, I'd have to start over with a new installation and work thru it again. Not likely. The community would be better served by someone who actually understands this thing.

As for attempting to analyze my experience by examining my other posts, your logic escapes me, and your reply is a waste of forum space. About 99% of my issues were resolved by hard work and a ton of Google attempts (since the documentation was too limited).
The replies I received were not really very informative or helpful in any real sense. Since most of the problems I have had seemed like they should be common, I tried not to repeat questions that someone else probably asked.

Intersting that several replies here have brought up the issue of cost. I think I predicted that when I began this thread. It's really not relevent. You missed my point. I think open source is a great concept. I think what has been accomplished so far with Linux is nothing short of amazing. It's just so damn hard to learn! And attempting to learn the basics in piece-meal fashion by poking around forums is really quite unproductive. If 80% of the people have to ask the same question in order to use their system effectively, then it says something about the documentation, does it not ???

Oh ... and contrary to several of you, the difficulty has nothing whatever to do with unlearning Windows. I was programming computers ten years before DOS hit the market. I've had to do a ton of learning over the years. In this industry about the time you become proficient at something it becomes obsolete. So re-learning is really not the barrier. It's the sheer lack of well-written guides. Some of you may have had to unlearn windows because you thought it was synonomous with computers, but that's not always the case.

BTW. You wanted an example of Kindergarten documentation. I was referring to "Linux for Dummies" and those sorts of aids.

Anyway, it's been fun. My basic point still stands. THis is a great system. But that doen't matter if the barriers to learning it are too great. I look forward to the day when it is possible to pick this up without quite so many headaches.

Virogenesis
August 19th, 2006, 08:43 PM
If you were a programmer you should ber used to some tasks, to me it seems you're bitching i'm afraid.
Sure some do attack Microsoft but you don't think they don't attack the linux community? Get real and grow up its swings and round abouts.

How often do you see documention about creating themes for windows, you don't
If you're using gnome you can actually get involved.
Yes you do have to unlearn windows a bit no matter what you say.
Your comments have been somewhat rude and total flamebait.
Its going to take sometime getting use to things just remember that stick to the wikis they are useful

GuitarHero
August 19th, 2006, 08:49 PM
You just kind of ignored all the points made by asyui and others.... Im still not sure how you spent "a week, nearly 10 hours a day" and didnt find what you needed. 75% of my problems are solved by searching the forums, I've had more hurdles to get by than you looking at your posts. The other 20% are solved by IRC, wiki, and of course posting on these very helpful forums. Don't give up, we're not trying to run you out here. Take your time with it and it will be fine.

Tomosaur
August 19th, 2006, 09:16 PM
I'm sorry, but after reading some of your posts, pointed out by aysiu, you just seem to be as pig-ignorant as the linux fanboys you complain about. You get answers to your questions, and you either don't reply, or you do, with more questions, often seemingly unrelated, or far too advanced to matter for your problem. In one such case, you ask why something is working! Why does it matter? It just is. If you want to know why something's working, download the source code and pick through it yourself. Linux is different from Windows, ok? You can't expect to just jump in and be doing everything right from a base install, and I'm sorry, but if you can't figure something out as simple as the differences between 'Add/Remove Programs' and 'Synaptic', and why those differences exist, then really, you may be out of your depth here. It's fairly easy to understand that one is more powerful, hence more dangerous, to your system than the other. That's why Synaptic requires a password just to start up. Sure, they have a similar function, but so does DOS and the linux terminal. They both look the same to the average guy/girl, but until you actually have a specific reason for using them, you won't understand the differences. Learning new stuff just takes time, and getting things to work may be different.

As for your comment about people asking the same question - well, that really says more about the laziness of the people with the problem than it does about the documentation. Yes, I'm going to say 'it's free, what do you expect', because seriously, what DO you expect? Most linux distrobutions are generally a community oriented project - they don't have teams devoted to documentation and whatnot, they just have the core developers. They don't get paid for doing what they do, and so they have to have a job aswell (unless they're very very lucky). They don't have time to sit around writing manuals and all that stuff to help people out. I'm sure they'd like to, but as far as their priorities go, it's just not something that need command their time. This is why, as aysiu pointed out, that the end user should do something about it. More often than not, an ongoing, open-source project's documentation is etirely within the comments of the source code. It's easier for the devs, because they're the ones writing it, continuosly, unpaid - responding to user demands/wishes, fixing bugs, problems, streamlining the program. You can hardly blame them for not writing comprehensive, detailed documentation, particularly when the very nature of the 'open-source' means nobody really understands the whole thing 100%. Sure, it's irritating when you can't find out an answer to a problem, and yes, a lot of documentation is poorly written and generally unhelpful, but this is down to the end-user (ie, you). If you don't probe the DEVELOPERS of the program, then they won't know that you're having trouble. Once you've found your answer, write a few notes about it. They don't have to be comprehensive, just outline what you did. Send it to the developers, or stick it in their wiki. Eventually someone who DOES have the time will come along and improve on what you've contributed. Contrary to your apparant belief, the world does not revolve around you, and people have other concerns than writing documentation which suits YOUR preference. If you don't like it, improve it, and if you're not prepared to, just lump it. In Windows, you are at the mercy of closed source programs. You generally don't have the oppurtunity to improve anything if you don't like it, and you get used to pretty good documentation (in general anyway, there's obviously a few really bad examples), because the company who write the software have tons of money and time to write it. Linux doesn't. Ubuntu is lucky in that it has financial backing, and the documentation for Ubuntu is actually pretty good. Some if it sucks, yes, but on the whole, it's readable and understandable. On top of that, you have the forums for more 'live' help, and an IRC channel if you're that way inclined. What exactly is the problem then? If you're not going to make the effort to self-document, or just leave a simple thank you, or some indication that somebody's solution has actually worked, then really, how can you blame the linux community as a whole for not writing millions of pages of documentation for you?

EdThaSlayer
August 19th, 2006, 10:07 PM
The problem with Linux ?

#1. Documentation
I expected a learning curve, but this is insane. There are two forms. One is written by kindergarten teachers and tells me absolutely nothing. The other is written by hackers and can only be understood by experineced hackers. Trying to learn this stuff is like moving to Zimbabwe and picking up the language. If Linux proponents really want to compete with Windows, someone needs to write some decent bridge material in real English.

Why dont you start writing the documentation then?
With me i had no problems coming across documentation since there are tons of sites out there that helped me back when i was a newb to linux.Remember that Linux is different, accept change, which i did for the better, just show interest instead of just complaints.



#2. Forums
When people ask a sensible question like, "How do I transfer files between the Host and a VM Guest?" they get answers like "just install widget bubba with the thingamabob and configure it to meet your needs". Why do you do that?

We are only trying to help you. If you dont understand there is always the beginner section. Also remember that everyone answers differently. Also the accuracy of our answers can and will increase if you can explain the software you are looking for more clearly.




#3. Attitude
Whenever someone levels a critique of Linux, the responses are usually one of the following:
a. It's free ... what did you expect?
b. Did you think it would be easy?
c. Microsoft sucks too
This leads me to believe that most Linux users must be in the 7th grade. Which explains the documentation problem mentioned earlier. The point is that Linux attempts to be a viable alternative to Windows. It certainly has that potential. What is lacking is not more development ... it is already a great system. What it needs is a more learner-friendly environment. Having the best system in the world is a useless accomplishment if the average person is unable to use it.

It doesn't have to be this hard.
I always thought that the average person was a graduate from school...
You have to get used to change, Linux is very different from Windows you know, me for example was lost in Linux and didnt know what to do. Until i came across this site. Personally i like being challenged...but maybe thats my programmers side speaking(python my lang. of choice).
And i have to agree with C, because when i had windows 2000 i always got the blue screen of death...all the time! Even when i tried Windows XP, but with Linux, i didnt get that problem.

nalmeth
August 20th, 2006, 12:29 AM
It's funny--it was Ubuntu's forums and documentation that drew me to Ubuntu.
Ditto

cstudent
August 20th, 2006, 02:57 AM
I like how you try to run software written for a different OS and because it doesn't work straight out of the box it's Linux fault. Give me a break.

If you want help, ask for it. If you want to bitch, take it somewhere else. I for one am sick of the crap.

David TAkle
August 20th, 2006, 03:21 AM
I guess I thought this part of the forum was for testimonials. If all you want is glowing reports then say so. If you are willing to accept the fact that some people find the current hurdles frustrating, then don't crap all over anyone who willing to say what the experience was like for them, and what would have made it less painful.
It wasn't meant as a personal attack on those of you who seem so offended. It was simply a collection of observations. I'd love to get away from Windows, and I'd love to see a large segment of the industry leave Windows. I'm really on your side! I just thought that a Board for testimonials would be mature enough to tolerate a little venting.

kwilliam
August 20th, 2006, 03:22 AM
I think it would be very nice if Canonical included a README_FIRST.html file with Ubuntu that included links to where all the common questions are answered. For instance, I didn't discover the Ubuntu Starter Guide (http://ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Dapper) for several days, and I had to search the forums/Internet to find https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RestrictedFormats#w32codecs.

The file "oo-welcome.odt" that comes in ~/Examples is not very useful. Perhaps for the next version, we could make a general, "So You've Installed Ubuntu... Now What?" page that pops up automatically after installation that addresses some of the most common issues newbies ask about, has links to the major wikis and tutorials of importance, and maybe even some Getting Started tips.

Maybe Ubuntu should even have a Tip of the Day feature like many big applications do. Anybody disagree with that idea?

aysiu
August 20th, 2006, 03:38 AM
I think it would be very nice if Canonical included a README_FIRST.html file with Ubuntu that included links to where all the common questions are answered. It already does, and the link goes here:
https://help.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/index.html

croak77
August 20th, 2006, 03:38 AM
I guess I thought this part of the forum was for testimonials. If all you want is glowing reports then say so. If you are willing to accept the fact that some people find the current hurdles frustrating, then don't crap all over anyone who willing to say what the experience was like for them, and what would have made it less painful.
It wasn't meant as a personal attack on those of you who seem so offended. It was simply a collection of observations. I'd love to get away from Windows, and I'd love to see a large segment of the industry leave Windows. I'm really on your side! I just thought that a Board for testimonials would be mature enough to tolerate a little venting.

Is there any specific help you require? I think most people here would be more the willing to try to help you with any problems. Remember, your experience with Ubuntu is not they experience. Just about everyone struggles to learn linux. When I first used linux, I had no idea how to get my modem to work or how to compile software. There was a lot of searching and a lot of trial and error.

David TAkle
August 20th, 2006, 03:38 AM
Thank you kwilliam. My experience was very similar. It would have been much less painful to have found the good stuff the first time I looked for it.

aysiu
August 20th, 2006, 03:40 AM
Thank you kwilliam. My experience was very similar. It would have been much less painful to have found the good stuff the first time I looked for it.
Maybe you're just better off with Linspire and not Ubuntu.

The second you load up Linspire for the first time, a video tutorial pops up immediately (much like the Windows XP Tour) and shows you around.

Most Ubuntu users would find such a tour a nuisance, but I think Linspire might be your cup of tea.

mrgnash
August 20th, 2006, 04:38 AM
If the documentation is easy enough for me to understand, then I'm pretty sure that most people would be able to grasp it. True, some of the man entries are a little esoteric, but that's what we have HOWTOs for.

23meg
August 20th, 2006, 11:33 AM
If 80% of the people have to ask the same question in order to use their system effectively, then it says something about the documentation, does it not ???No, given the amount of documentation that exists and the tools and technologies available (forums, search engines etc.) for reaching it, it says something about that 80%.

Note: My sense of "documentation" isn't strictly structured technical documents. Anything that can be found on the net and elsewhere that solves your problem or teaches you something new is documentation. A forum post that you find via a search that solves an existing problem for you is documentation in this sense. So can be a wiki page or a chat log.

seshomaru samma
August 20th, 2006, 12:43 PM
I think it really depends on what problems you encounter when you first install Linux. For me all the problems I had were easily solved with the help of the forum, IRC and google. After a few months I came upon 2 serious problem that were never solved through the forum ,irc and google (Vmware is one of them) , but I already formed a good opinion on Linux by then. If I had tried to install Vmware when I first got Ubuntu with the same result (strange error that nobody seem to have a clue about) I might have formed a different opion about the documentations, forums , Linux users etc.
David TAkle , if you think it's a great system ,please give it more time. It's well worth it, even if you don't solve all the problems immidiately.
You will find some great people here and some great documentation as well
(and some not-so-great people and documentation)

kwilliam
August 21st, 2006, 04:18 AM
I think it would be very nice if Canonical included a README_FIRST.html file with Ubuntu that included links to where all the common questions are answered.

It already does, and the link goes here:
https://help.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/index.html
I'm glad you found such a link, and yes, I see your screenshot. (I'm using Kubuntu right now, but I'll trust you. ;) ) However, in my installation of Ubuntu Dapper I only found two things that might be considered README_FIRST files: "~/index.html" which by some mistake was the Debian project page (guess they forgot to change that, lol), and ~/Examples/book-toc.html which while a very good guide, isn't organized in a quick-gimme-the-answer form. It's a chapter out of a book. I'm imagining something akin to a "Frequently Encountered Tasks" page. Please do not think that this is not a complaint; I'm brainstorming ways to make the next release of [K/Ed/X]Ubuntu even better and more user friendly.


Maybe you're just better off with Linspire and not Ubuntu.

The second you load up Linspire for the first time, a video tutorial pops up immediately (much like the Windows XP Tour) and shows you around.

Most Ubuntu users would find such a tour a nuisance, but I think Linspire might be your cup of tea. A tutorial might be a little more than most people need/want, but I don't see why Ubuntu can't have one too. It could always have a cancel button, and some people might appreciate it.


Note: My sense of "documentation" isn't strictly structured technical documents. Anything that can be found on the net and elsewhere that solves your problem or teaches you something new is documentation. A forum post that you find via a search that solves an existing problem for you is documentation in this sense. So can be a wiki page or a chat log.

Grr... In my opinion, if it doesn't have an Index, it isn't really Help Documentation. But I'm spoiled.

Anyway, my ideas for the upcoming release of [K/Ed/X]Ubuntu is this:

We add a "Tip of the Day" feature.
We create a "Top 10 Frequently Encountered Tasks.html" and put a link to it on the desktop. (I figured "Top 10 Frequently Encountered Tasks" sounds better than "Top 10 Newbie Questions of All Time" :) ) Those two features combined might save newbies their first few hours of searching.


I might make this it's own thread, because I find the concepts interesting.

prizrak
August 21st, 2006, 05:47 AM
The real trouble with Linux is how boring it is. I've had a fully functional system that I didn't have to defrag or virus scan or spyware scan or registry clean or even update manually since Breezy. I didn't even have to sped 2 days setting it up and putting all the software I need on it. The only computer I had to tweak with is the current one but even that wasn't all that difficult. This is just plain boring. Hell even XGL/Compiz worked more or less painlessly but had to be scrapped because of it's beta (alpha really) status.

snakyjake
September 27th, 2006, 07:14 PM
How would you grade the Ubuntu/Linux documentation (Desktop environment, not server)?

A=Informs me of everything that I wanted to know. Easy and quick to find information. Easy to understand with lots of hand holding. I don't have to spend lots of time researching. I feel like I've learned a lot. I have only minor suggestions that could make it better.

B=Informs me of most things that I need to know in a reasonable time. The documentation is okay, but I've seen better.

C=I can find the information I want, but I have to work at it.

D=Usually cannot find the answers in a reasonable time, or the solutions are too vague. I need more hand holding. Leaves me with some unusable features. I have to go through trial and error. Somethings don't work the first time. Becoming frustrated, but still have patience.

F=Can't find a lot a lot of what I'm looking for. My machine, or application, or feature is not operable for an unreasonable amount of time. Frustrated and contemplating dismissing Linux as not yet ready for the Desktop.

Consider comprehensiveness, quantity, quality, and completeness.

As for the type of documentation...The main goal is to be able to accomplish what you wanted and know where to get the information efficiently.

snakyjake
September 27th, 2006, 07:17 PM
deleted

Lord Illidan
September 27th, 2006, 07:17 PM
It depends a lot for your machine...the documentation may be good for one person, but for another person with incompatible hardware, the documentation might be useless

Also, are you referring to the documentation in yelp or online documentation?

rfruth
September 27th, 2006, 07:21 PM
Sometimes I search the web, check the Wiki or here but I usually get the answer 8)

snakyjake
September 27th, 2006, 07:25 PM
It depends a lot for your machine...the documentation may be good for one person, but for another person with incompatible hardware, the documentation might be useless

True, I've generalized the poll mainly because I'm curious of how people preceive the Linux world. I come from the Microsoft world where there's extensive centralized help. I currently have some bias because I'm still fairly new to Linux.


Also, are you referring to the documentation in yelp or online documentation?

Any documentation.

snakyjake
September 27th, 2006, 07:30 PM
Sometimes I search the web, check the Wiki or here but I usually get the answer 8)

I notice there's 1000+ websites with regards to Linux tutorials, guides, wikis, howtos, forums, etc. Even Ubuntu seems to support several help sites that duplicate many of the efforts to help inform users.

In terms of quantity, the Linux community is top rated. In terms of quality and comprehensiveness...hmmmm.

In terms of getting the answer, I seem to get multiple differing answers. Some work, some don't. It might be the downside of having so many distributions, customizations, versions, flavors, and diversity.

snakyjake
September 27th, 2006, 07:34 PM
It would be interesting to me to see how people would honestly grade between the Linux documentation and Microsoft's MSDN, Books Online, Knowledge Base, TechNet, and Microsoft's community of forums, websites, training, magazines, and books.

aysiu
September 27th, 2006, 07:48 PM
I think the documentation for Linux in general is too cryptic, but the documentation for Ubuntu specifically is great (with the possible exception of some Wiki entries--not naming any names).

IYY
September 27th, 2006, 07:51 PM
The official documentation is not perfect. In fact, the help files for Windows may even be better. However, I never use the Windows help or the Ubuntu "documentation". Instead, there are many guides on the internet, and these forums. If you include this as documentation, it's perfect.

ayoli
September 27th, 2006, 08:37 PM
The official documentation is not perfect. In fact, the help files for Windows may even be better. However, I never use the Windows help or the Ubuntu "documentation". Instead, there are many guides on the internet, and these forums. If you include this as documentation, it's perfect.

I agree completely with that :)

Lord Illidan
September 27th, 2006, 10:27 PM
The official documentation is not perfect. In fact, the help files for Windows may even be better. However, I never use the Windows help or the Ubuntu "documentation". Instead, there are many guides on the internet, and these forums. If you include this as documentation, it's perfect.

I'd give it a B for Linux documentation then. IMHO, it is better than windows in one regard...man files are awesome.

And forums and stuff are v. nice...but the difficulty is knowing where to search. However, it is all out there.

onioneater36
September 27th, 2006, 10:33 PM
I guess I am curious which Ubuntu documentation in particular you want me to grade? The official desktop guide? Ubuntuguide.org? Forums? Unofficial things? Or everything as a whole?

I will say that if you add all those things together (especially the Ubuntu community), I am doing more with Linux than I ever have in the past. I have tried at least 6 times and always went back to windblows, but now out of the 3 machines in my house, Ubuntu has likely found permanent residence on my old P3 500 and my lappy. My main rig still runs Windows for gaming, though.

Dinerty
September 27th, 2006, 10:48 PM
Ubuntu's documentation is very good, gave a great guide on xgl, restricted formats and many other things.

Also in plain to easy understand format, the ubuntu wiki is amazing

snakyjake
September 27th, 2006, 11:00 PM
I guess I am curious which Ubuntu documentation in particular you want me to grade? The official desktop guide? Ubuntuguide.org? Forums? Unofficial things? Or everything as a whole?

In terms of efficiency. In other words, there might be lots of quantity, or lots of places to look for information, but takes a lot of time and effort to find it.

An example might be when you are looking for a book on a certain subject. You go to the bookstore to look for the subject. Maybe you have to purchase 5 different books to get the information you need. Or maybe you find 1 book that is more comprehensive. Sure, the information might be out there, but is it efficient to have 100 different wikis?

I'm also curious to see the votes/opinions of some of the new users. As I become more experienced, I noticed my bookmark quantity of Linux subjects have grown a lot. As I learn where to find those resources, the better.

adam0509
October 17th, 2006, 12:22 AM
Hello guys !


This is an english traduction of what I wrote here : http://forum.ubuntu-fr.org/viewtopic.php?id=66366
Someone told me it would be better posted here, so, let's go :)


I tryed many times to understand the official website/Wiki (for some months), but I finally drop down. I was thinking it was coming from me, poor little beginner...

But the beginner evolved, and wants his revenge :)

I won't go by many ways : the official Website/Wiki is a complete mess !!

-The "business thing" and the communitary things is not well enough separated
-There seems to be an "official documentation", and a Wiki. Here again, it's not well enough separated
-It make me time to understand, but it seems that some webpages thinks it's funny to look my language (In my browser), and displaying me french webpages. It's the official wiki, sure, and must promote other languages. But I don't think that mixing them on the same website help very much !!
-It is talked about something called "Launchpad", but without explaining really what is it...sympathic !!


And to finish...

-There's a ubuntu documentation (GNOME), and a kubuntu documentation (KDE) !!

And so, there's nothing on xubuntu (XFCE). In the case I would like to talk about lite programs (and more indepedante to the environnement used), I can't ! Putting a "sudo apt-get install" on a Gnome documentation (knowing there's an integrated program installed -don't remember the name- that is well done) would be stupid !

...and talking about xpdf, xpaint (-place here another lite application-) knowing every (or at least 90%) Gnome-user got at least a 1ghz 256DDR would be ridiculous...



Take a look at Gentoo wiki : http://gentoo-wiki.com/Main_Page

Simple, he is quite good organised. The only defect is the lack of pictures (picture is the best support for explaining for beginners).


Even french wiki is better ! :mrgreen:


Thanks in advance !

aysiu
October 17th, 2006, 03:14 AM
This isn't about the forums site, so I'm moving it to the Ubuntu Cafe.

IYY
October 17th, 2006, 03:31 AM
I agree. The wiki is a bit of a mess: missing pages, outdated pages... It's easy to find something if you have the direct URL, but browsing it is very frustrating.

maniacmusician
October 17th, 2006, 06:32 AM
I also concur. This has been discussed to some degree in one of the stickies at the top of the cafe, but then we got sidetracked with the whole ambassador thing.

The thing is, this isn't just about the wikis. it's that, and the forums, and the mailing lists, and the irc, and launchpad, and i'm sure there's more. There's all these things widely scattered about. Some are seperated by language barriers, as Adam pointed out. others just lack functionality and ease of use. The question is, how shall we go about fixing this?

mattheweast
October 17th, 2006, 08:11 AM
Hi Adam,

I'm interested in improving the Ubuntu wiki, so I would like to understand your complaints a bit better in order to see what the problem is. It's not always clear from your post whether you are talking about the Ubuntu wiki (which is for community management and development discussion) or the Documentation website, or both, in relation to each of your specific complaints.

If you help me understand each problem, we can file bugs and maybe get them sorted out.




-The "business thing" and the communitary things is not well enough separated


Ok, I don't understand what you mean by the "business thing" - obviously the wiki is free for anyone to edit, but I'm not aware of any business material on it - it's all community based.



-There seems to be an "official documentation", and a Wiki. Here again, it's not well enough separated


So here you seem to be talking about the help website at https://help.ubuntu.com, right? On that website there is official documentation, and community contributed documentation - the tabs at the top right distinguish the different versions and the community documentation. How would you improve the layout of this site? It's a very new site so we are very interested in suggestions/improvements.



-It make me time to understand, but it seems that some webpages thinks it's funny to look my language (In my browser), and displaying me french webpages. It's the official wiki, sure, and must promote other languages. But I don't think that mixing them on the same website help very much !!

Which pages are you talking about here? The documentation website, or the wiki?



-It is talked about something called "Launchpad", but without explaining really what is it...sympathic !!


Can you explaine exactly where this is? Is it on the wiki, or the help website?



-There's a ubuntu documentation (GNOME), and a kubuntu documentation (KDE) !!
And so, there's nothing on xubuntu (XFCE). In the case I would like to talk about lite programs (and more indepedante to the environnement used), I can't !


That's not correct - on the front page of the help website there is a link to the xubuntu desktop guide, written by xubuntu users for xubuntu. In the community section there is lots of material based on lighter programs.

Thanks in advance for clarifying some of those points!

jsgotangco
October 17th, 2006, 08:33 AM
For a community-driven project (Documentation), its pretty well endowed though. A lot of stuff has already been integrated lately (user logins with the exception of forums)and harvesting the wiki to put it on a more sensible structure such as h.u.c is no easy feat.

keithweddell
October 17th, 2006, 08:34 AM
I think your questions confirm Adam's premise - it is often difficult to work out whether you are looking at "official documentation" or community produced wiki.

Keith

mattheweast
October 17th, 2006, 08:47 AM
I think your questions confirm Adam's premise - it is often difficult to work out whether you are looking at "official documentation" or community produced wiki.


Just to be clear, I wasn't intending to criticise the premise - I understand that it's difficult to work out whether you are looking at official documentation or community documentation. We have some ideas for trying to solve that.

However Adam's post is aimed at more than documentation, as far as I can see. I wanted to identify the specific problems he has raised.

keithweddell
October 17th, 2006, 09:00 AM
Just to be clear, I wasn't intending to criticise the premise

Yeah it's OK - I got that.

Keith

adam0509
October 17th, 2006, 10:23 AM
QUOTE=mattheweast


Hi Adam,

I'm interested in improving the Ubuntu wiki, so I would like to understand your complaints a bit better in order to see what the problem is. It's not always clear from your post whether you are talking about the Ubuntu wiki (which is for community management and development discussion) or the Documentation website, or both, in relation to each of your specific complaints.

If you help me understand each problem, we can file bugs and maybe get them sorted out.


Quote:
Originally Posted by adam0509
-The "business thing" and the communitary things is not well enough separated

Ok, I don't understand what you mean by the "business thing" - obviously the wiki is free for anyone to edit, but I'm not aware of any business material on it - it's all community based.

====> I was talking about the "support" thing, with a guy wearing a green shirt.


Quote:
-There seems to be an "official documentation", and a Wiki. Here again, it's not well enough separated

So here you seem to be talking about the help website at https://help.ubuntu.com, right? On that website there is official documentation, and community contributed documentation - the tabs at the top right distinguish the different versions and the community documentation. How would you improve the layout of this site? It's a very new site so we are very interested in suggestions/improvements.

====> Maybe by using a different design. But why is the help completely separated from the website ? The help should got a tab, like the wiki does.

When clicking on "community", in the "Help and information" menu, it is talked about a "documentation". For a beginner, he will maybe think that this "documentation" IS the wiki. Please add "Wiki" in this category :]



Quote:
-It make me time to understand, but it seems that some webpages thinks it's funny to look my language (In my browser), and displaying me french webpages. It's the official wiki, sure, and must promote other languages. But I don't think that mixing them on the same website help very much !!

Which pages are you talking about here? The documentation website, or the wiki?

====> This one : https://help.ubuntu.com/ . If you then click on "community docs", you got an english documentation. The first thing to add would be, in bold: "This page is displayed in french because your browser is in french. Go to www.ubuntu-fr.org for french wiki !" (By the way, the link on the down page is false, it point on "https://help.ubuntu.com/http://doc.ubuntu-fr.org" :D )
Who is the french guy how take charge of this page ?

===> Better, if you go on https://help.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/desktopguide/fr/index.html , you will got french and english on the same webpage !!!



Quote:
-It is talked about something called "Launchpad", but without explaining really what is it...sympathic !!

Can you explaine exactly where this is? Is it on the wiki, or the help website?

====> Use your email address and Launchpad password or create an account.



Quote:
-There's a ubuntu documentation (GNOME), and a kubuntu documentation (KDE) !!
And so, there's nothing on xubuntu (XFCE). In the case I would like to talk about lite programs (and more indepedante to the environnement used), I can't !

That's not correct - on the front page of the help website there is a link to the xubuntu desktop guide, written by xubuntu users for xubuntu. In the community section there is lots of material based on lighter programs.

=====> Well, go on http://www.xubuntu.org/ , and then click *documentation*. You will arrive on the classic Ubuntu Wiki, while kubuntu go his own wiki !

mattheweast
October 19th, 2006, 09:41 AM
Adam, I replied to your post earlier but my reply seems to have disappeared. Very odd! I will try and reply again later if it doesn't reappear.

mattheweast
October 20th, 2006, 12:28 PM
Ok, I'll try again.



I was talking about the "support" thing, with a guy wearing a green shirt.
Ok, that's neither the wiki nor the documentation website - this is the main Ubuntu website. What do you find confusing about that page? I think the separation between commercial support and community support is very clear.



Maybe by using a different design. But why is the help completely separated from the website ? The help should got a tab, like the wiki does.

I agree with you - I hope that this will change soon. The help website is very young and we need to do a lot of work on usability.



When clicking on "community", in the "Help and information" menu, it is talked about a "documentation". For a beginner, he will maybe think that this "documentation" IS the wiki. Please add "Wiki" in this category :]

I think a beginner won't understand what a "wiki" is. The type of software used for presenting a website should really be irrelevant - the beginner should simply be able to quickly find the documentation available, and browse through it quickly to find the right answer. As you've pointed out, at the moment this isn't working very well.

In fact, given that a beginner will not really understand what the wiki is used for, I think that having a Documentation tab is actually more useful than a Wiki tab - the wiki is for people who want to contribute to the community, and should be explained under the existing Community tab, it doesn't need its own tab, in my opinion.



This one : https://help.ubuntu.com/ . If you then click on "community docs", you got an english documentation. The first thing to add would be, in bold: "This page is displayed in french because your browser is in french. Go to www.ubuntu-fr.org for french wiki !" (By the way, the link on the down page is false, it point on "https://help.ubuntu.com/http://doc.ubuntu-fr.org" :D )
Who is the french guy how take charge of this page ?

Ok, I'm particularly interested in this. My personal view, having experienced a translated website for 2 release cycles, is that the help website should contain English material only, for several reasons:

First, the reason you identify - the community documentation is all in English. Secondly, none of the other Ubuntu website (www.ubuntu.com, www.ubuntuforums.org, etc) are translated. Thirdly, there are lots of great international sites (such as ubuntu-fr.org) which can provide a coherent and complete home for localised material, including news, forums, and documentation.

When we suggested including translations on help.ubuntu.com, it was a very popular option with the translators, but I now think that it was the wrong way to approach this. What do other people think?


Better, if you go on https://help.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/desktopguide/fr/index.html , you will got french and english on the same webpage !!!
This is because the document hasn't been fully translated by the French translation team, there is not much that can be done about this.



Use your email address and Launchpad password or create an account.
This is the wiki login page... it contains a link to launchpad, which explains what it does. How do you think this could be made clearer?



Well, go on http://www.xubuntu.org/ , and then click *documentation*. You will arrive on the classic Ubuntu Wiki, while kubuntu go his own wiki !

In fact kubuntu doesn't have its own wiki - there is a kubuntu and edubuntu theme for the main Ubuntu wiki, it's actually the same site with a different theme. Obviously xubuntu hasn't yet done something similar.

adam0509
October 20th, 2006, 10:23 PM
Okay that's it :]


So, we agree with that, all the website has to be done enterely in english. How can we eject all the french content ont the official site ? There's so much to do with www.ubuntu-fr.org already, it will be a HUGE loose of time if we had to make a translation for help.ubuntu.org...


-Use your email address and Launchpad password or create an account.
This is the wiki login page... it contains a link to launchpad, which explains what it does. How do you think this could be made clearer?

=> maybe "universe" in bold will be clearer :]





Anyway, I think we pointed the badest point of the official doc :]

K.Mandla
October 20th, 2006, 11:02 PM
I'm inserting myself into the fracas here, but I'd have to agree with the OP. Rather than point more fingers, I'd like to help out. Is it acceptable to go on a wiki-rampage :twisted: , and try to clean things up? :mrgreen:

aysiu
October 20th, 2006, 11:59 PM
See... this is what I don't understand:

I've complained about the Wiki's organization in the past.

I was told (this was over a year ago, so I forget by whom) that "we" are responsible for the Wiki, so I can just go in and change it, but I don't think I can.

Since it's "we," doesn't the organization have to be agreed on by everybody? In fact, I remember an incident where someone moved the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RootSudo page to some other place and all the references to that page were suddenly dead links (this was before the page redirected to http://help.ubuntu.com/community/RootSudo). People were pissed (I know I was, because I link to that page all the time).

If I or someone else went on what K.Mandla refers to as a "Wiki rampage," wouldn't the larger community get angry that pages got moved around or links added/removed?

I don't understand how a community-maintained webpage (which is essentially what a Wiki is) can have good organization unless one or two people are in charge of keeping that organization/navigation up and approving those changes. And if only one or two are in charge and they make bad decisions, that ruins it for everyone, doesn't it?

Am I making sense?

mattheweast
October 21st, 2006, 09:54 AM
I don't understand how a community-maintained webpage (which is essentially what a Wiki is) can have good organization unless one or two people are in charge of keeping that organization/navigation up and approving those changes. And if only one or two are in charge and they make bad decisions, that ruins it for everyone, doesn't it?

Am I making sense?

More or less. I can only speak for the documentation wiki here - obviously a community maintained website never has perfect organisation (although Wikipedia has done a better job than anyone else).

In the case of the documentation wiki, we've established some guidelines that hopefully (1) make it easier for people to edit the site, and (2) ensure that there is some order and people know what to do.

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide

If you want to edit the documentation wiki, I'd encourage you to read that page and contribute! If you have significant plans for "rampages" you should definitely discuss your ideas with the documentation team first on their mailing list - see https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc. A bit of discussion is always the best way to see if one's ideas are sensible.

In terms of moving pages and breaking links, we've learnt from those lessons - only very few editors have privileges on the documentation wiki to delete or rename pages, and those people know how to ensure that links don't get broken.

mattheweast
November 18th, 2006, 09:32 PM
Hi,

I'd like to add a question: what material would you like to see included in (a) the system documentation, and (b) the community website (https://help.ubuntu.com/community), that isn't currently included? That will definitely help the documentation team focus on what is needed.

And if you want to help us out, head over to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam

temcat
November 19th, 2006, 11:06 PM
I think that documentation for "Linux" in the wide sense of the word is mostly adequate, but a) definitely NOT newbie-friendly; and b) lacks integration. I can live with that, but Joe User will have a harder time. I gave it a "C".

aysiu
November 19th, 2006, 11:07 PM
I think that documentation for "Linux" in the wide sense of the word is mostly adequate, but a) definitely NOT newbie-friendly; and b) lacks integration. I can live with that, but Joe User will have a harder time. I gave it a "C".
What about Ubuntu specifically?

msimon1960
December 16th, 2006, 06:55 PM
I've moved this to Other OS Talk.

msimon1960, if you really want to stick with Ubuntu, give your support thread (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=319690) more than a half hour to be addressed.

Everyone else, if you want to help msimon1960 out, go to this support thread (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=319690). Otherwise, please take this thread at face value and suggest other distros to try. Thanks.

The community is great -- very helpful and encouraging. However, here are a few of my concerns that have been relevent to my Ubuntu experience to date.

1. Documentation -- I have no problem using a text interface -- been there, done that for close to 30 years (Yes I owned a Sinclair and a VIC-20). However, a text interface is dependent on rigourous documentation with a standard syntax documentation standard. Nobody is suggesting that the documentation is anywhere close to a professional standard and I agree. Most of the time I've spent has been trying to disentangle fixed syntax from variables and then determining the required processes for the issuance of commands. The 'official' how-to is just as bad in this respect -- for instance 'password sync' as the preferred method of authentication is completely undocumented, Two other methods of authentication are covered but the hyperlink for method #2 is dead. Oy!

2. The Community forum search interface generates too many false positives -- finding answers is like finding a needle in a haystack. The first step would seem be to separate out the versions into separate sections. The current situation in Ubuntu would be akin to having every version of MS-DOS, Windows 3.0, WFWG 3.11, Windows 3.1, Windows 95, Windows 98 SE, Window ME, Window NT, Windows 2k, Windows XP, and Windows Vista all sharing the same discussion board. Chaos. If you check the threads you'll see that virtually no one states the version they're using at the outset of their question. Different versions -- different solutions, different syntax.

3. Once the Community has figured something out -- it needs to reflected in the 'official documentation'. I'm not seeing that kind of interplay between the community and the keepers of the official documentation.

Just some thoughts from a weary Linux traveller. ](*,)

K.Mandla
December 16th, 2006, 08:56 PM
THE PROBLEM


For as powerful a distro as Ubuntu is, and for as strong a community as we have, our wiki is lacking. Much of the information is obsolete, esoteric or incomplete. Newcomers to Ubuntu, or to Linux on the whole, may be faced with instructions or information that is outdated or incorrect, and that could serve to derail an otherwise positive Ubuntu experience.

By comparison, the Gentoo wiki (http://gentoo-wiki.com/Main_Page) is a fantastic resource and an obvious hub of the Gentoo phenomenon. Similarly, the Arch Linux wiki (http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Main_Page) is a strong source of information for newcomers and seasoned Linux fans, regardless of the distro they use.

This is not to suggest our wiki is mechanically, visually or aesthetically inadequate, but instead to make a case for a stronger presence in the wiki by front-line, experienced Ubuntu users who can contribute to community-based documentation. In other words, you.

CASES


Case No. 1: A new user was trying to install Xubuntu (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=318288) with the instructions on the wiki (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InstallingXubuntu#preview). Until a day or two ago, those instructions applied only to versions 5.10 and earlier of Ubuntu -- releases that are now well over a year old. Attempting to follow those instructions proved confusing and impossible, and for a good reason: They were no longer applicable to current versions of Xubuntu.

Case No. 2: Any Ubuntu user, seasoned or green, looking for help installing 32-bit Ubuntu on a 64-bit machine, gets only this page (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/32bitonAMD64) as a guide. The installation page describes it as a "Guide to get past boot errors when installing Ubuntu i386 on an AMD 64-bit system," but there is little there to guide any user, aside from a few commands. While there are plenty of 64-bit users who can contribute to that page, there hasn't been an update in six months.

THE PLAN


We're asking anyone who's willing to help to contribute about an hour's time this weekend, 16-17 December 2006, and edit, update or clarify any page(s) in the wiki they choose. You're not required to clock in or out, and if you get sidetracked playing Frozen Bubble 2, no one will fault you. All we're asking for is a brief effort to bring community documentation up to standard.

If you are multilingual, you are of even greater value to the community, since you can help to an even greater degree.

If you have experience with specific or unique hardware configurations, you are likewise particularly valuable. Your contributions and suggestions can be enormous.

When you're done, please feel free to come back to this thread and gloat over your contributions. Consider it your victory lap.

WHAT WE NEED FROM YOU


About an hour of your time.
Your expertise and experiences using Ubuntu.
Language skills in any area(s) you can offer.

WHAT YOU NEED TO PARTICIPATE


About an hour of your time.
Your expertise and experiences using Ubuntu.
A Launchpad or wiki account (they are the same; a Launchpad account allows you to edit the wiki). If you don't have an account, getting one is no more difficult than it was to sign up for the forums.
An Internet connection. ;)

SPECIAL AREAS OF NEED


Any and all pages that are frequented by newcomers. In other words, pages in the Installation (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation) section are vital.
Any and all outdated or obsolete pages, that can be brought up to date.
Hardware-specific pages, particularly if you have unique components or experience with unusual configurations. Laptop and notebook users also are valuable here.

TIPS ON GETTING STARTED


If you've never edited a wiki before, don't worry. Wiki markup is exceptionally easy, and help pages (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpOnEditing) are available. And if you find it overwhelming, just add your contributions and corrections, and another person will have the opportunity to format it. This is a group effort, and later visitors can prettify your additions.

Don't be shy. Feel free to change and correct what is present, based on your expertise. Again, this is a group effort, and the contributions of one improve on the experiences of all. That is the underlying principle of ubuntu.

Furthermore, wiki sites in general keep a history of additions and changes. So accidents and mistakes are reversible.

If you want to import new material or add information from outside sources, familiarize yourself with the Gathering Documentation (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/forum) and WikiGuide (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide) pages. Those areas will give you more information about how the wiki is managed, formatted and presented, and keep your contribution from falling by the wayside.

In general, if you just want a place to browse until you find something you can help with, the Community Documentation home page (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/) is a good starting point.

IF YOU SPOT VANDALISM


Please correct it. Reverting to an earlier page version may be necessary, but you can use your best judgment in that case.

THANK YOU!

Your help is greatly appreciated! By adding, correcting and refreshing the community documentation, you're helping make Ubuntu a greater and more powerful presence in the Linux community. Cheers and thanks! :mrgreen:

dbbolton
December 16th, 2006, 10:08 PM
i would love to help out by writing wiki articles. but, i hardly know enough to get by on my own, let alone show others how to do things. perhaps i could do some really rudimentary starter's guides ...

ButteBlues
December 16th, 2006, 10:09 PM
Sounds like fun.

jc87
December 16th, 2006, 10:11 PM
There are tons of guides sources spread around the web

I for instance usually contribute to the Portuguese wiki (http://www.guiaubuntupt.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page)

TLE
December 16th, 2006, 10:30 PM
I think this a terrific idea, and I'll go and have a look to see if there is anything I can do.

One thing I was wondering about though. I know you said "don't be shy" and all that. Sometimes I come across a wiki page where I know something is wrong and I can describe the problem, but I don't feel I have the expertise to write it myself. Then what do I do? The last time I was wondering about this I asked in one of the IRC channels and was told that I could just write a bug report, but I was wondering if perhaps it would be better to have it some where else because it is a different kind of job. Maybe we would benefit from having a documentation work list. Where you could submit jobs to and then if somebody have a hour to spare they could visit it and search on the subjects they something about and find a small task. What do you think?
Regards TLE

K.Mandla
December 16th, 2006, 10:51 PM
i would love to help out by writing wiki articles. but, i hardly know enough to get by on my own, let alone show others how to do things. perhaps i could do some really rudimentary starter's guides ...
Absolutely. Or you could start with some of the introductory pages and see if there's anything you can add or clarify. Try to remember things that proved difficult to you or didn't work, and describe how you got around them.

Remember, this isn't a test to see who knows the most about Ubuntu or Linux. It's an effort by the forum community to get the wiki back on track. Do what you can to help out. :D

K.Mandla
December 16th, 2006, 10:54 PM
One thing I was wondering about though. I know you said "don't be shy" and all that. Sometimes I come across a wiki page where I know something is wrong and I can describe the problem, but I don't feel I have the expertise to write it myself. Then what do I do?
Tack it on at the bottom of the page. If you're not comfortable rewriting a page or correcting something because you think it might not be right, make a "Comments" section at the end of the page and describe what you know. Your additions might help another person contribute, or even help a newbie who saw or is experiencing what you describe.

All of the pages are fluid and reversible, so don't be afraid that what you describe isn't right. It's all right, and every little bit helps. ;)

K.Mandla
December 16th, 2006, 11:23 PM
Just as an example (and not an attempt to brag ... much) the Installation/LowMemorySystems page has always disappointed me. If anyone proficient in Fluxbox or IceWM can add to what I put in there, I'd appreciate it.

ma1kel
December 17th, 2006, 12:02 AM
Well, I think that the main "site" for the wiki isn't attracting to people, compare these two wikis:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/
http://gentoo-wiki.com/Main_Page

It would be nice if there would be some icons and some text to make the wiki more attractive.
Some text with some news or intresting/important things. And then some icons to wrap it up. It needs to be more organized.

K.Mandla
December 17th, 2006, 12:18 AM
It would be nice if there would be some icons and some text to make the wiki more attractive. Some text with some news or intresting/important things. And then some icons to wrap it up. It needs to be more organized.
You make a valid point; remember that the main page is editable too, which means if you had an idea for that page, you could conceivably improve upon it. Any ideas? Jump in.

Albi
December 17th, 2006, 12:20 AM
For the low memory installation page, can someone add how to install/configure rox-filer or idesk for a desktop (i don't have much experience)

K.Mandla
December 17th, 2006, 12:28 AM
I can add for idesk later this evening. Rox-filer I can't help much with. :-k

mattheweast
December 17th, 2006, 11:19 AM
We're asking anyone who's willing to help to contribute about an hour's time this weekend, 16-17 December 2006, and edit, update or clarify any page(s) in the wiki they choose. You're not required to clock in or out, and if you get sidetracked playing Frozen Bubble 2, no one will fault you. All we're asking for is a brief effort to bring community documentation up to standard.

This is a good initiative. It's a shame it was only posted in the forum and wasn't made a more community-wide scheme. It's also a shame that the documentation team wasn't made aware of it.

Maybe next time this can be better done.

kripkenstein
December 17th, 2006, 11:30 AM
This is a great idea, and I will try to do my part to help.

One thing that I really think could speed the process is a single central list of 'pages in need of improvement'. Then people who want to help know where to start. A few suggestions were mentioned in this thread, but perhaps a more general list - and one that is constantly updated, as things get done or new pages are flagged as 'in need of improvement' - would be more useful.

allix
December 17th, 2006, 11:36 AM
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Programming

This page is written in a non-english language, prior versions however are in english. How can I revert it back to the older english version(and should I?)? I've been clicking around for a while, but maybe I'm just to blind to find the right button... :)

mattheweast
December 17th, 2006, 11:43 AM
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Programming

This page is written in a non-english language, prior versions however are in english. How can I revert it back to the older english version(and should I?)? I've been clicking around for a while, but maybe I'm just to blind to find the right button... :)
Well spotted. It is under "Page History". I've reverted it.

mattheweast
December 17th, 2006, 11:50 AM
This is a great idea, and I will try to do my part to help.

One thing that I really think could speed the process is a single central list of 'pages in need of improvement'. Then people who want to help know where to start. A few suggestions were mentioned in this thread, but perhaps a more general list - and one that is constantly updated, as things get done or new pages are flagged as 'in need of improvement' - would be more useful.

See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiToDo

allix
December 17th, 2006, 12:22 PM
Well spotted. It is under "Page History". I've reverted it.

I still can't find it lol. Thanks for fixing the page. =)

mattheweast
December 17th, 2006, 12:37 PM
I still can't find it lol. Thanks for fixing the page. =)

Click "Page History" at the top left of the page, then find the revision you want to revert to, and click "Revert" on the right hand side.

allix
December 17th, 2006, 01:17 PM
Thats weird, I only get view, raw and print options. No revert.

mattheweast
December 17th, 2006, 02:07 PM
Thats weird, I only get view, raw and print options. No revert.

Ah ok. Revert is limited to wiki administrators, sorry.

K.Mandla
December 17th, 2006, 05:10 PM
This is a good initiative. It's a shame it was only posted in the forum and wasn't made a more community-wide scheme. It's also a shame that the documentation team wasn't made aware of it.

Maybe next time this can be better done.
My apologies. This was completely my idea and I take responsibility if there was a more appropriate way of coordinating it. I didn't expect there to be a very big response, although I am glad to see some things being taken care of.

If it happens again in the future, I'm sure we can find a more effective way of managing it. Cheers, and again, my apologies. :oops:

mattheweast
December 17th, 2006, 05:14 PM
If it happens again in the future, I'm sure we can find a more effective way of managing it.

I think we should do more of them, definitely. In the future we can publicise them on the forum, the Fridge, planet Ubuntu and the major mailing lists.

If you're interested in helping out, please jump onto the documentation team mailing list/irc channel and we can brainstorm some more good ideas.

Thanks for your work!

PatrickMay16
December 17th, 2006, 05:33 PM
A couple of days ago, I wrote a Wiki page to help people get hardware MIDI synths to work.

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MidiHardwareSynthesisSetup

If anyone can improve it at all, that'd be good. I remember when I first came to ubuntu in 2005, I was discouraged because I knew not how to set up the hardware MIDI synthesis for my SB Live.

K.Mandla
December 17th, 2006, 06:03 PM
For the low memory installation page, can someone add how to install/configure rox-filer or idesk for a desktop (i don't have much experience)
I added a little blurb about iDesk and a link to the iDesk wiki. I also added a subsection about file managers with links and installation instructions for some of the most common ones, as well as some that were discussed in this thread (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=312510) a few days ago. (Probably a good example of how casual discussions on the forum can be useful in the wiki. ;) )

If someone can add something about rox-filer, I have little more to say about it than what I put in there. I used it very briefly about a year ago, and that's hardly enough. I know it has pinboard options and can display a background, so it might be worth expounding upon.

K.Mandla
December 17th, 2006, 06:14 PM
One thing that I really think could speed the process is a single central list of 'pages in need of improvement'. Then people who want to help know where to start. A few suggestions were mentioned in this thread, but perhaps a more general list - and one that is constantly updated, as things get done or new pages are flagged as 'in need of improvement' - would be more useful.
This might also be a place to look.

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CategoryCleanup

Polygon
December 17th, 2006, 10:03 PM
we are helping the help.ubuntu.com one correct?

id help but i have to study for finals. Ill either update or create a page on how to get grub working after a reinstall of windows, the one in the wiki is SO outdated.

K.Mandla
December 17th, 2006, 10:16 PM
That and https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ mainly, although I don't see why you couldn't help with other pages elsewhere, if you had something to add.

The wiki (http://wiki.ubuntu.com) has a lot of purposes beyond the help pages (http://help.ubuntu.com) most people see, but that shouldn't mean you're limited to just those and the community documentation (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/) areas.

Of course, the official documentation pages (https://help.ubuntu.com/6.10/) and other sensitive areas won't be editable.

dbbolton
December 18th, 2006, 05:57 AM
perhaps some content from the ubuntuguide.org wiki could be added ?

K.Mandla
December 18th, 2006, 06:58 AM
If you have stuff you'd like to add, by all means see if you can find an appropriate home. Check the WikiGuide pages to make sure you graft the information appropriately.

And thanks to everyone who helped with the rampage. If you kept an eye on the Recent Changes pages, it was very gratifying to see some familiar user names making updates and keeping things timely. If it was well accepted -- on both sides of the fence -- maybe we can do it again some time soon.

But of course, you don't need an invitation to edit those pages. They're for you, created by you and open for discussion.

Cheers and thanks! ;)

K.Mandla
January 18th, 2007, 09:51 PM
Hello again, fellow Ubuntunuts! Please join us for Wiki Weekend (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiTeam/WikiWeekend) No. 2!

A month has passed, and your help is needed again to keep the wiki up to date. If you weren't part of the inaugural "rampage (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=319989)," welcome! And if you did help out last month -- welcome back!

SO WHAT'S THE PROBLEM?


The problem is that Ubuntu moves fast. We have one of the most progressive distros available, and things change from week to week, and even day to day. Herd 2 (http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/releases/feisty/herd-2/) was just released. Xubuntu (http://www.xubuntu.org) is becoming as powerful as its two siblings. And Fluxbuntu (http://www.fluxbuntu.org) is ripening at pace with Feisty Fawn.

Changes come fast and furious with Ubuntu, and our wiki and community documentation needs as much attention as we can give it. And since you use Ubuntu every day, and you know how it works and how it doesn't work, you're the perfect person to keep the wiki on the leading edge.

SO WHY IS IT SUCH A BIG DEAL?


It's a big deal because some people rely on the wiki to get started with Ubuntu. And more people refer to the wiki in the case of problems with Ubuntu. And still more people need the wiki as a touchstone for the Ubuntu phenomenon. From those standpoints, the wiki is as critical as any other part of the Ubuntu framework.

Here's an example: Suppose you have a 64-bit machine. You want to install the 32-bit version of Ubuntu. What help do you get from the wiki? Only this (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/32bitonAMD64). And yet there are probably thousands of Ubuntu 64-bit users who could offer more information than just that.

SO WHAT'S THE PLAN?


Give us an hour of your life and expertise this weekend, Jan. 20-21, 2007, and edit, update or clarify anything and everything you can. You're not required to clock in or out, and if you get distracted playing Freedroid (http://packages.ubuntu.com/edgy/games/freedroid), no one will complain. All we're asking for is a little help, and a little time.

SO WHAT IF I SPEAK MORE THAN ONE LANGUAGE?


If you're multilingual, you are a huge asset to Ubuntu. There is a long list (http://www.ubuntu.com/support/local) of multilingual resources; consider contributing to any and all you can.

SO WHAT IF MY RIG IS UNIQUE?


If you have experience with unique hardware configurations, you're especially important. If you're using components that aren't seen often or need special attention to work, the information you add could be a huge boost for someone else down the road.

SO WHAT IF I LACK EXPERIENCE OR EXPERTISE?


If you've used Ubuntu, you're qualified. If you've installed Ubuntu, you're qualified. Even if you've only tried the live CD and it didn't start up, that's important to mention. So don't worry about your Linux pedigree. We're not looking for gurus, we are looking for users.

SO WHAT IF I'VE NEVER DONE THIS BEFORE?


Don't worry. Wiki markup is exceptionally easy, and there are help pages (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HelpOnEditing) that will get you started. And if you find it confusing or difficult, just add your contribution and another member will help later with formatting. How it looks is not nearly as important as getting the ideas on the page. Prettificationing can come later. ;)

And don't be shy. Feel free to correct what's present, based on your expertise. The underlying principle of ubuntu is that the contributions of one improve upon the experiences of all.

SO WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM ME?


An hour of your time
Your expertise and experiences using Ubuntu
Language skills in any area(s) you can offer

SO WHAT DO I NEED TO DO THIS?


Again, an hour of your time
Again, your expertise and experiences using Ubuntu
An Internet connection ;)
A Launchpad or wiki account (they are the same; a Launchpad account allows you to edit the wiki)

SO WHAT IF I DON'T HAVE AN ACCOUNT?


Getting one is no more difficult than it was signing up for the forums. Follow this link (https://launchpad.net/+login) to get started.

SO WHERE DO I START?


Before you go wild, read the Wiki Guide (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide) so you have an idea of how it works. If you want a starting point, take a look at this page, which will show you what areas are already flagged as needy:

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiToDo?action=show

There are also special instructions for integrating information from the forums:

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/forum

And as if that wasn't enough, there's an entire category marked for cleaning up:

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CategoryCleanup

Roll up your sleeves!

SO HOW DO I CONTACT THE DOC TEAM?


The documentation team is part of this event, and you can contact them immediately via IRC (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRCResourcePage) at #ubuntu-doc on irc.freenode.net. There should be someone on hand to clarify things.

You can also post here, even if it's just to brag, and we'll answer questions or send you congratulatory smileys. =D>

THANK YOU!

Your help is greatly appreciated! By adding, correcting and refreshing our community documentation, you've helped give Ubuntu a greater and more powerful presence in the Linux community! Cheers and thanks!

MkfIbK7a
January 18th, 2007, 10:32 PM
question:
why would we play freedroid why not a list of other games;)

public_void
January 19th, 2007, 01:14 PM
I'd really like to get involved, although my knowledge is limited. However I'm quiet happy to format some of the pages. I've already start on some of the CleanUp pages, making sure the code fragments look right.

Are there any examples of good formatting?

K.Mandla
January 19th, 2007, 05:39 PM
I don't know of any particular poster child for the proper wiki look, but the Eye Candy page looks pretty good.

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuEyeCandy

It would be nice if it had a few more screenshots. And really, I don't think it says much about Beryl, which is a step above anything else on that page, really. It mentions Compiz a lot, but there isn't even a link off that page to get you to a Beryl setup.

Surely someone can add some Beryl pics there? And perhaps some links to Beryl pages (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuEyeCandy?action=fullsearch&context=180&value=beryl&titlesearch=Titles) in the wiki?

MkfIbK7a
January 19th, 2007, 05:50 PM
i think i will help there are many things in the wiki that need to be updated as soon as i get a wiki account...

picpak
January 20th, 2007, 05:10 PM
Fixed up the Audacity page ;)

K.Mandla
January 20th, 2007, 05:18 PM
=D> :biggrin:

picpak
January 20th, 2007, 05:40 PM
I also added a page on installing the Audacity beta. Dunno if I've clarified everything enough though.

Brunellus
January 20th, 2007, 06:04 PM
Can someone get a rudimentary UbuntuForums page up?

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuForums

Azrael Nightwalker
January 20th, 2007, 06:29 PM
SO WHAT IF I SPEAK MORE THAN ONE LANGUAGE?


If you're multilingual, you are a huge asset to Ubuntu. There is a long list (http://www.ubuntu.com/support/local) of multilingual resources; consider contributing to any and all you can.
There is no information about getting help in Polish.
How can I add it?
If you want to add it then see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamList?highlight=%28polish%29 for the IRC channel, mailing list and forums link.

K.Mandla
January 20th, 2007, 07:25 PM
There is no information about getting help in Polish.
How can I add it?
If you want to add it then see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamList?highlight=%28polish%29 for the IRC channel, mailing list and forums link.
That's a good question. You might have to contact mattheweast (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=1216) or one of the documentation team (someone is bound to be on #ubuntu-doc all weekend) to see if there's a way to add a multilingual resource to that page. :cool:

mattheweast
January 20th, 2007, 08:05 PM
There is no information about getting help in Polish.
How can I add it?
If you want to add it then see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamList?highlight=%28polish%29 for the IRC channel, mailing list and forums link.

Please file a bug about this at https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+bugs and include the details you would like to see added.

K.Mandla
January 20th, 2007, 09:56 PM
I touched up the Transparent Terminals page, and added xfce4-terminal, aterm and urxvt to it. If you aren't using Gnome, you have a little more to work with now. ;)

Polygon
January 21st, 2007, 02:17 AM
question:

i edited this page: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BackupYourSystem

and under the "using the tar command", im trying to get the " BackupYourSystem/TAR" to link to the page (BackupYourSystem/TAR) but its not linking. Its really strange as I have another link in the same style (BackupYourSystem/SimpleBackupSuite) and it works fine, but then when i try to link this, it doesnt work

can someone please help me so it links properly? thanks!

BWF89
January 21st, 2007, 03:37 AM
I don't know enough about Linux to contribute to the Wiki but it's great to see people making an effort to improve Ubuntu documentation.

Knowledge is power.

K.Mandla
January 21st, 2007, 03:54 AM
I don't know enough about Linux to contribute to the Wiki but it's great to see people making an effort to improve Ubuntu documentation.
What? :shock: Are you kidding? You've been around longer than me! You definitely should be contributing! [-X

K.Mandla
January 21st, 2007, 03:59 AM
question:

i edited this page: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BackupYourSystem

and under the "using the tar command", im trying to get the " BackupYourSystem/TAR" to link to the page (BackupYourSystem/TAR) but its not linking. Its really strange as I have another link in the same style (BackupYourSystem/SimpleBackupSuite) and it works fine, but then when i try to link this, it doesnt work

can someone please help me so it links properly? thanks!
I got it. It just needed the quote marks inset to the brackets, so the link could be parsed. Like this:

{"BackupYourSystem/TAR"}

Except with brackets where the curly braces are. ;)

Polygon
January 21st, 2007, 04:14 AM
cool, thanks a bunch

MkfIbK7a
January 21st, 2007, 06:20 AM
i updated some formatting and stuff on the iceWM page...

K.Mandla
January 21st, 2007, 06:37 AM
Cool, thanks. I put together a page for FVWM-Crystal, which has a small but vocal following.

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FVWM-Crystal

Most of that is built from my own experiences with it; if anyone can add to it, please do.

MkfIbK7a
January 21st, 2007, 07:50 AM
fvwm is BEAUTIFUL i cant believe its so fast...

BWF89
January 21st, 2007, 04:14 PM
What? :shock: Are you kidding? You've been around longer than me! You definitely should be contributing! [-X
I've been here for a long time but I haven't gotten the chance to actually use Linux until November.

huygens
January 22nd, 2007, 01:08 AM
OK, I have been using the previous page: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Rt61WirelessCardsHowTo
It was requested to clean it up and to move it under WifiDocs.
The page is now accessible directly here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs/Driver/RalinkRT61
The previous link being now a redirect.

I did more than cleaning it up, I also integrated my own experience with the installation of this card and the information from this forum thread: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=296822 (great job from phq by the way!)

Cheers,
Huygens

K.Mandla
January 22nd, 2007, 06:17 AM
OK, I have been using the previous page: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Rt61WirelessCardsHowTo
It was requested to clean it up and to move it under WifiDocs.
The page is now accessible directly here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs/Driver/RalinkRT61
The previous link being now a redirect.

I did more than cleaning it up, I also integrated my own experience with the installation of this card and the information from this forum thread: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=296822 (great job from phq by the way!)

Cheers,
Huygens

=D> Thanks Huygens!

shankarganesh
February 4th, 2007, 08:57 AM
Hello there, I will be contributing to the Ubuntu Tamil Doc Team!:)

aysiu
April 9th, 2007, 05:33 PM
I just did a cleanup.

There was an old page called BasicCommands.

Someone created a new page called HowToUseTheTerminal, and whoever created BasicCommands thought the information was redundant and should be merged. Of course, since BasicCommands is a subset of HowToUseTheTerminal (the commands go in the terminal, not vice versa), it would make sense to put stuff in the latter page.

But HowToUseTheTerminal is also an annoying URL to type (see how many times you have to press the Shift key).

So I merged them and moved them to a new page: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UsingTheTerminal

Hope no one complains.

picpak
April 9th, 2007, 07:39 PM
Change the text

The mouse won't work. Use the Left/Right arrow keys to move around the line.

When the cursor is where you want it in the line, typing inserts text - ie it doesn't overtype what's already there.
ctrl+a or Home
Moves the cursor to the start of a line.

ctrl+e or End
Moves the cursor to the end of a line.

ctrl+b
Moves to the beginning of the previous or current word.

ctrl+k
Deletes from the current cursor position to the end of the line.

ctrl+u
Deletes the whole of the current line.

ctrl+w
Deletes the word before the cursor.

I didn't know that! That's really helpful.

aysiu
April 9th, 2007, 08:37 PM
I've merged a bunch of threads about the documentation (usually specifically the Wiki). I don't know how it ended up with an empty poll at the top, but I've attached a screenshot of the real poll that got lost in the mix.