Linux & Gaming. How do we improve things?

[cobrn1]

Hello all. I started this thread because it's something that geniunely bothers me about linux at the moment. I want linux to succed very much, and it's almost there. It's superior to windows in most places and only falls down in a few (albeit rather critical) areas:

1) Ease of use - personally I think that it's really easy, but I just get computers, so I'm a bad example. However, more GUIs are being developed and most would agree that linux is almsot there at being just as easy to use

2) Hardware support - I personally think this has started on the road to being a non-issue. More and more drivers are being released, and with the increasing popularity of linux manufacturers will take note.

3) Professional software - getting better I think and as market share increases it will get become less problematic.

4) GAMING - this is the real snag in my opinion... Many of the people who would dearly love to drop MS on its **** and switch to linux completely are gamers, and are shackled to windows.


Ok, so I know that we have WINE and cedega, but WINE is neigh on useless for games (It doesn't support any of the 7-10yr old windows gamed I like) and cedega is hit and miss, costly and a pain in the ...

I wouldn't view cedega as a solution as they're constantly playing catch-up, and even now it doesn't support meny games.

So, I was wondering, how the hell can we improve gaming on linux. What's availible for deving on linux. How does it compare to directX? How do we get game devs to desing for linux? Is the situation for linux gaming going to improve?

I thought we maybe had a chance with the advent of DX10 (given that only £200+ graphics cards can play DX10 games acceptably), but DX10 games are starting to crawl out of the wood-work... So far they don't seem to pose any advantage over DX9, but that'll surely change.

Anyway, the questions/point to discuss here are:


What's availible for developing on linux?
How does it compare to directX?
How do we get game devs to desing for linux?
Is the situation for linux gaming going to improve?

How can we improve gaming on linux?

EDIT: sorry it's such a long starting post... Please post if you have anything to say! :D

[eljoeb]

Does this topic come up every other week? I think there was one about profitability... game making organizations are out there to make money, and as long as the linux user base isn't primarily gamers (they aren't, some of the replies here are quite telling:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=497278

The initial jump to Linux has to be worth it for a developer. I don't think they're going to say: hey, lets lose money hoping to switch some Windows users to Linux! OK, definitely not that simple.

I think WINE and Cedega are very important in pulling gamers over. Developers could work to make sure they would work in WINE/Cedega better. This could help engineer a transition in developer attitudes towards Linux (this is in the WINE FAQ if I remember right, just paraphrasing).

But hey, I ve been happy since getting Eve Online working on WINE.

[Polygon]

support the games that do come out. Go buy unreal tournament 3 when it comes out, and enemy territory quake wars.

[cobrn1]

1) I did a quick search and no other thread addressed these particular questions, so I felt quite right to start a new one.

2) Gaming comes up on the forums alot because it is a huge issue of linux.

Like I said, alot of gamers do seriously look at linux, but can't make the jump completely because of the lack of native gaming (inc ports of cource, but not inc cedega).

I agree that having cedega and WINE are important for trying to get gamers to come to linux, but the be honest when you can dual boot there's little point in using cedega, which as I said, is hit and miss. But dual booting isn't good enough because I really want to dump windows completely (a veiw shared by many)

How expensive is it to port the game anyway? Linux games would be bought.

If there were native games for linux then the user base would include gamers, slightly catch 22, but there you go...

BTW, it occured to me that in the very unlikely event that software patents were abolished, we wouldn't have this problem as we could just include DX into linux, but that's another issue..

Anyway, back to the questions... How do we improve things?

[cobrn1]

support the games that do come out. Go buy unreal tournament 3 when it comes out, and enemy territory quake wars.

That I will do. But there are so many windows only games coming out that I've got to get too, ie Crysis (drools...)

But I will buy linux versions of games were I can. I don't know much about quake wars, but I'll look it up now...

[eljoeb]

How expensive is it to port the game anyway? Linux games would be bought.

This comes up quite often. I remember somewhere (I think it was the Eve Online forums) that porting games isn't a small task. It can be if they set out from the beginning to support a multi-platform release, but its not always that simple.

There are also the problems with OpenGL as opposed to DirectX, namely OpenGL being solely graphically related and DX being more of a "total package" including sound, input devices, etc (I think, I pulled this from what I read here on the forums.

As for "Linux games would be bought", I'm not so sure. In the long term, yeah, if people switched. The current user base aren't primarily gamers, so the first dip is doomed to be unprofitable. Plus, a LOT of people in the link I posted last time had some... interesting things to say about gamers. Did you read it?

There might even be some reluctance for developers to enter a market preoccupied with the idea that software should be free (I know it doesn't relate to something like a game, just that they may consider this when thinking about the market's profitability.)

Of course, strong sales for upcoming Linux supported games wouldn't hurt. I want to point out that I don't want to be negative (I want to play games on Linux too!), but its important to remember that developers aren't in it just for a warm fuzzy feeling, they depend on it for their livelihood.

[cobrn1]

It would make sense to think about a multi-relase from the start though... More platforms = more money usually...

As you say, porting can be difficult, but if you design with it in mind then not so much.

As for DX vs OpenGL, I thought there were other alternatives that could be used (SDL) which incorporate OpenGl graphics and all the other stuff you need for deving.

The game would be bought - assuming that no features are missing from the linux release, I'll probably buy the linux version of UT3. But as you say, until there are more gamer who have switched, it won't be wildly succesful. It takes time for the stone to gather moss, and it's slightly catch 22.

I read some of the thread back when it was 3 pages long, but not recnetly. To save me trawling through could you just point out some of the more... interesting things they had to say? I'll have a quick look again now tho...

I wouldn't have thought that linux being free would be such a problem to game devs - afterall, we pay full price for our software instead of pirating it (even if full price means $0).

Strong sales will be a good starting point, but I can't help feeling it might not be enough, and I'd hate to see the oportunity DX10 brings just fly by...

[a12ctic]

The only way that linux will ever become a solid gaming platform is if microsoft stops making or makes dx cross platform. You do realise that MS does developer pay offs leaving us with poor performing games. Why is the performance so poor? Have you ever noticed games with opengl support usualy perform a lot better than those with just DX? Theres absolutely no reason to be using it, its a insuperior, sloppy, closed api.

[VoiceOvGod]

Ok, so I know that we have WINE and cedega, but WINE is neigh on useless for games (It doesn't support any of the 7-10yr old windows gamed I like) and cedega is hit and miss, costly and a pain in the ...



I actually got a few games (Starcraft, Quake 2) from 7-10 years ago running. Remember, winecfg allows you to adjust to which OS you are interacting with....

[Polygon]

doesnt quake have a linux port? lol

anyway if games are made for opengl then its quite easy to port them. Its games that are written for dx that are really hard to port as they basically have to rewrite everything

[VoiceOvGod]

Quake 2 does....

Quake 1 had a direct port for sale at one point

I just used WINE coz I was lazy.

[eljoeb]

That thread really made a strange impression on me. A lot of people said that the gamers should stay on windows. Some of my favorites:


Let the "gamers" stay on a resource hungry platform like Win. That ensures that the little brats continue to consume expensive peripherals on the market in order to sate their thirst for games and a 0.001% increase in framerate, thereby driving down their cost for the rest of us.

I like the arrangement.


No, I love linux because it is open source, its just you, the code and the ubuntu forum that keeps you alive when you screw everythign up real good.

I wouldn't but the game. Ever. No matter how cheap. Call me a ****.



I prefer to look at this differently. Yes, there will always be the crowd that can't afford something, and get the "free" hack copy of it. But, most folks will prefer to take the moral ground and purchase something, if it's reasonably affordable. When it's NOT reasonably affordable, more and more folks feel justified in "sticking it to" the manufacturer / developer by getting a hack copy.



No. We're like 3% of the market, and as this thread shows, not all of us are gamers, and of the few who are, some simply will not pay for anything. It would be suicide to spend any time or money porting anything to Linux.

Hopefully that situation will change.

My personal favorite (linked to in the thread):

Issues:

1) Small and Angry Audience.

2) Case sensitivity annoyances, would require a lot of work and would end up with Linux users bitching at Windows users even more for not making their mods compatible. Windows users wouldn't care.

3) Audio library would require a recode / extra money / extra time and effort. EIther it would take a lot of time, or it would not support the audio as fully as the other two versions.

4) Some way to protect game files (we have ways on Win/OSX, but not Linux)

5) Support. (Have a fair idea of how to support Windows, Ambrosia will help us support Mac... Linux? No idea)

6) Another full testing cycle. (Ambrosia will help us test OSX. But for Linux we'd have to get beta testers, and they'd probably be 90% of our potential audience!)

Now is it worth taking time out to deal with all those issues instead of:

A) finishing the game

B) possibly porting / spinning off the game to consoles, which would have a large game-friendly audience

C) creating new games

Either A, B or C are far more interesting and valuable to us than dealing with picky issues that shouldn't even be coming up in this day and age to support a niche audience that I'm still not convinced would even be interested in buying the game, let alone playing it.

And the overriding reason?

I just don't care about Linux anymore. This thread has crushed any interest I had in working on a port.

How about that price tag anyway?


I believe that if enough work is put into anything it can be profitable...

Linux is free...

Windows is not...

I however would not pay just as much for Linux as Windows...

I am cheap... I don't think software should be sold!!!

However Say an RPGWO port for Linux came out I may pay $10-20

I think Linux can be almnost as profitable (in price per software)
However Windows has more users thus causing loss of profit...


I don't like/need all the bells/whistles

I like the important stuff like:
1. Gameplay
2. Community
3. Price

I don't like games that take more than 8 fingers to play well...

I don't like music (it just wastes space as I hardly have my speakers on)

I don't like 3d (It is just not important to me)

I don't pay for software.
I never plan to either.

I would not be here if I felt diffrently!

I was careful to copy as much as I could, so I wouldn't throw something out of context. I apologize to anyone whose quote I copied incorrectly. A lot of people did think it was profitable, however. So I guess there is some hope. I think it might bother a developer if a potential customer says "If the price is reasonable, I'll buy it. But if its not, I'll just pirate it." No one actaully said that, but there were quite a few people saying they were cheap. So would forking $60 for a game be bueno?

There is an assumption that gamers are more technically inclined so they might like fiddling with Linux. Maybe a Gaming Oriented Distro should be made?

[cobrn1]

Had a look at the other thread. One person had a bad thing to say about gamers (bratz paying too much for hardware, but at least they keep the cost down for everyone else...) Hummm. Not sure what to say for that. Most gamers think that hardware is overpriced too, but have no choice but to buy it if they want to keep up. Gamers aren't driving the prices up - companies are. Besides, everyone else gets good gear much cheaper, so there's no need to whinge (unless he couldn't pay for a gaming pc, then a sympathise (empathise even at the moment), but that's just a tad bit of jealsoy imo...)

Most of the negative comments are against people who think that game devs should work on a game and give it away for free. THIS IS NOT TYPICAL OF GAMERS!!! (hell - it's not even typical of the OSS community) I personally believe that software (in general) should be free (libre and gratis) and that generally software patents should be abolished (it wouldn't benefit devs to start off with, as many of them licence their game engines, but if they could nick bits from eachother then theyy'd all improve, and of cource gamers everywhere benefit from better games - open source works, it's just a completely different way of looking at things. And it stops you from using your game engine as a revenue stream - you can use it and improve it, but not just sit on it and milk it...). However, I also think that devs should be paid (nothing against that atall), afterall, if MS gave away windows thay could pay the devs by the fees for support. There are ways and means of paying people.

Similarly, I think that content creators should be paid, but movies and music could be freely downloaded and paid for by advertising, so everybody would win (except the corporations, who aren't needed in this new, digital model of things). Games I don't expect to be free (I wish they could cost less tho) although it might be possible to sell them online via advertising, but I don't think it would work for games given the expense and little pay from advertising per head (a few quid from an advert vs £30 per game - no comparison). I don't like the idea of paying monthly - just because I don't have the money to waste like that...

It would be nice to find a way to get free games and pay devs, but I can't see a good way at the moment (as opposed to films and movies where it would work). However, we've (i've) drifted off point...



I had realised/suspected that MS might be paying devs off to use DX, but a one-time payoff isn't going to sell them for life, not when there's a huge emerging market out there. As somone pointted out, the game industry would have to make a committment, and treat the first few games as an investment, because they will sell, but might not make up the difference for the cost of porting them.

Using the correct game dev facilities would help porting significantly.

We just need to get devs and game companies on side, because if gamers knew that games were being released for linux, and they were everybit as good as the windows versions (no compromises here) then they would flock to it../remove their windows partition. By games I really mean the main games tho, ie, crysis and all new games coming out - it will start with a few select offerings, but it needs the whole game industry to support it or it won't work.

[cobrn1]

Thanks for the quotes, but I read the thread now...

As I say above, it points out market share issues (hence the first few games are an investment) and flames people who leach off the open source movement. 1 or 2 cheapskates does not mean that all gamers are cheap - far from it - gamers spend more on hardware and software then anyother group. THe few who were saying they object to paying for stuff (and like watching devs starve :-( ) are probably not even gamers, and are just cheapskates/poor. Not representative of the gaming community..




As you say, there is hope, and the 'buy if cheap, pirate if not' ideology is not exclusive to a select few linux users - most windows users are the same (running a pirated OS too).

The price would have to be reasonable, but £30 is usual here, and I think that's Ok (although I think £20 would be much better - but that's not the linux in me talking, that's just somone not liking getting ripped off - people only buy when it's fairly priced, regardless of their OS).


As long as both windows and linux editions of the game are the same price, then there's not a problem. Id quite like to see both vers released on the same disk if possible, but that's just me. It's not a huge point of contention - it would just be nice...

[cobrn1]

I think the major, open source competitor the DX ir SDL, but I'd really like to see a professional push from a company, say canonical to develop a set of API's to really rival DX. Money should (IMO) be put into this because it is a major point for the increased uptake of linux.

As far as I was aware thare is/was a fund for developing... Would be nice to see some of it sent towards this.

[saulgoode]

http://www.blender.org/blenderorg/blender-foundation/2007-plans/apricot-open-game/

[cobrn1]

That's quite intersting - I'll keep an eye on it and see how it does... maybe the future of linux gaming doesn't look quite so bleak ;-)

[Fitzy_oz]

it's a bit sad, but that being said the Wine developers are doing a pretty good job. To say that wine is neigh on useless is a bit over the top. I use wine daily due to my needs for work software and not to mention games and I find it to run most of my them very well, that being said there are some that won't run simply because of the way they have been written or the dependancies on unimplemented API calls which is unfortunate due to the fact that the dev's could make their games function within wine quite easliy.