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View Full Version : local retail store: banned for life?



scxtt
July 17th, 2007, 02:32 AM
hope someone else gets a kick out of this:

i was in the market for my 1st laptop and of course it has to be Linux-compatible - which is quite a difficult task in the Vista-heavy laptop market ... the only thing that stopped me from going Ubuntu/Dell or System76 was: 1) the itch to check them out myself 2) seemed like there are still things to be sorted out price-wise / available stock ... basically i'm just impatient :p ...

i started out at a MAJOR (can i use names?) retailer equipped w/ 4 LiveCDs (Kubuntu Feisty, Fedora 7, Gentoo 2007 and PCLOS2007) ... i was basically left to my own devices and after scoping out how vista ran on a few Toshibas, HPs and Gateways i took it upon myself to pop in one of my disks and check out how MY! OS would run :) ... it was rough, most of these lappys had broadcom / realtek wifi and i had 0% success w/ most of them - especially the HPs, some of them wouldn't even boot :-o ... granted, had i bought one and fudged around w/ it at home (via ethernet cable) i may have gotten one to a satisfatory level ... but i was really shooting for 100% compatibility if i could get it ...

at that point i'd basically settled on a dual-core AMD w/ 1gb of RAM and an Nvidia chipset (6100 and hi-def audio) - the kicker w/ it was the realtek wifi that was being detected but still needed a bit of work ... it was $699 and i felt good about it - but i wanted to go at least one more place, for posterity if nothing else ... overall it was a good experience and the staff (although clueless about linux) was nice and very courteous - i left w/ a smile on my face ...

then, something happened i was NOT expecting and am still kinda shocked about - one of those "did that really happen to me?!" - when i went to MAJOR retailer #2 ...

i went up and down the aisles and saw generally similiar machines - w/ a few differences, which i'm sure is done intentionally ... i then happened upon another gateway that was very similar to the one i'd mostly settled on @ store #1 - but it was an Intel core duo 2.0ghz w/ 2gb of ram (for the same price) - but this one was intel based (video + wifi) ... i was happy about the RAM, and not having much exp. w/ intel chipsets i popped in my kubuntu CD ... it went VERY well, everything worked out of the box except for 1280x800 resolution - i'm sure it would have been an easy fix - and wifi worked w/o a hitch ... i then put in the Fedora 7 disk and EVERYTHING worked - i knew i'd found the one ... at this point i'd only talked to one salesperson and he didn't seem to care in the least about what i was doing - i'd spent about 2 hours @ retailer #1 w/ no gliches between myself and the staff ... it took a turn for the worst ...

i'd enabled compiz (cube + wobby windows) and connected to their unencrypted DHCP-enabled internal wifi network and just did a ping to google - i was ecstatic about how well it was working ... then wanders over a smarmy looking (he actually looked like someone who might actually know what linux is) non-sales floor worker who started negatively questioning me on what i was doing w/ "[your] own software" - he even knew i was using LiveCDs ... i told him i wanted to preview the laptop on the OS of MY CHOICE and he got all uptight and said i HAD TO stop and remove the disk ... i complied, after a bit of a huff, and collected up my 4 disks ... the "red shirt" sales person, who was nice, came over again and i asked him if he could find me one of those laptops - he was mildly receptive but didn't exactly jump on it ... in his slowness another non-sales floor individual (a manager? but not an older person, maybe my age or a year or 2 younger) and actually started harassing me ... like i was breaking some law and doing intentionally malicious things ... he told me to get out of the store, that i should go do that kinda stuff at Retailer #1 and that "[you] are never allowed to set foot in this store again!" ... i was floored, i told him he just burned $700 and the best he could come up w/ was "i don't care, get out" ...

i just thought, "wow, that did really happen" ... oh yeah, it def. did ... i knew i was just dealing w/ people on a power trip, that really didn't know anything about what they were selling - and were essentially scared/confused about the l33t-haX0r Linux i brought w/ me ... i was bummed tho, cause i REALLY liked that laptop ... i tossed my fair share of expletives @ them and walked out the door ...

went home, found another Retailer #2 store w/in 15min of my apt. and made my way there ... the people at this store were much more sane, esp. after i told them what happened to me ... i was dealing w/ a younger sales-floor dude named Nick and altho he wasn't really up on Linux, he was a stand up guy and was willing to ask his manager if it was ok for me to use my disks ... i was given the go-ahead and continued my testing ... both Fedora and PCLOS worked great and i proceeded to make my purchase - i was finally happy ...

the only thing i'da done different would be to demanded to talk to the store manager @ retailer #2, store 1 ... they can't be doing their job right treating a (willing to) paying customer like a type of criminal and banning them from the store --- he didn't even take my name, so he messed that up as well ... i could cut my hair and put some contacts in and they'd never even know it was me - but that's a moot point - i'll never give them a red cent ...

anything like this happen to anyone else?

DeadSuperHero
July 17th, 2007, 02:39 AM
It strikes me as crazy that a store would do that.

Ironically, I went into a Best Buy a few months ago, and checked one of the Vista machines out. I looked through the media center...and there was a wallpaper from Gnome-look, with Ubuntu's logo. I laughed so hard.

Spaceman3750
July 17th, 2007, 02:40 AM
What stores? I'm guessing Circuit City was #1 and Best Buy was #2v1...

FuturePilot
July 17th, 2007, 02:52 AM
Man that sucks. I think people react that way because they don't know what Linux is and then they get scared, because it's natural to be scared of the unknown.

You should have tried to give him a CD. Lol

H.E. Pennypacker
July 17th, 2007, 03:04 AM
You must not have heard of the Internet. You should have written down the model number so you could Google it later on for even better deals. Store prices can't be compared to Internet prices. Internet always beat stores, and I have never bought a computer from a store; just the Internet.


What stores? I'm guessing Circuit City was #1 and Best Buy was #2v1...

I want to know the same thing.

Ralob
July 17th, 2007, 03:05 AM
i never had an experience like that, thankfully :P glad you snagged the lappy you wanted though, the good thing about chains are that the same products exist in more than one place :guitar:

tbroderick
July 17th, 2007, 03:06 AM
hope someone else gets a kick out of this:
anything like this happen to anyone else?

You should have asked in the first place. You deserved to be banned.

starcraft.man
July 17th, 2007, 03:08 AM
Bleh, stupidity.

People shouldn't be in a business they know nothing about.

I never run into this trouble, I know the parts I want and then make sure I get them.

mr.farenheit
July 17th, 2007, 03:15 AM
don't feel too bad. i had a similar experience with a store manager at a major retailer. he actually called me a communist.:)

stepan2
July 17th, 2007, 03:16 AM
don't feel too bad. i had a similar experience with a store manager at a major retailer. he actually called me a communist.:)
whats wrong with being a communist?

dustigroove
July 17th, 2007, 03:16 AM
You should have asked in the first place. You deserved to be banned.

Actually, these are demo/display units that are provided for customers to test drive the machines. There is typically no signage guiding a potential customer as to what is acceptable or unacceptable behavior.

I would say he was dealing with fair use...

qamelian
July 17th, 2007, 03:20 AM
Bleh, stupidity.

People shouldn't be in a business they know nothing about.

I never run into this trouble, I know the parts I want and then make sure I get them.

Hardly. You have no right to place any media in a laptop or PC in a shop without getting permission from the staff first. After all, it isn't your computer yet, is it? I've found that most outlets are quite happy to let you test live CDs if you ask first.

It's just common sense and courtesy really. Would you walk into a car lot and take a vehicle for a test drive without consulting a sales person first? (okay, so you might need to hotwire the car to do this...don't be picky!)

KiwiNZ
July 17th, 2007, 03:20 AM
When you went into the shop you should have consulted with the staff before doing this. Besides all else it would have been good manners.

Doing this sort of thing actually damages the reputation of the Linux community and reinforces the poor inmpression people have of it.

I think banning was an expected result for you behaviour.

mr.farenheit
July 17th, 2007, 03:24 AM
nothing to my perspective. everyones entitled to their own political views. but why we he call me that of all things. prolly just another idiot afraid of "Big Brother"

qamelian
July 17th, 2007, 03:25 AM
Actually, these are demo/display units that are provided for customers to test drive the machines. There is typically no signage guiding a potential customer as to what is acceptable or unacceptable behavior.

I would say he was dealing with fair use...



They're meant to be tested as is, in the same configuration that they shipped with from the factory. If you want to test anything other than the factory configuration, you should have the courtesy to get permission from the floor staff. This doesn't seem like rocket science to me.

CautionaryX
July 17th, 2007, 03:40 AM
I think the reason he got banned was because he pinged google using the store's network and somehow one of the managers knew what he was doing. Still, if he had asked first, he probably wouldn't have gotten banned at all.

Personally, I wouldn't have kicked him out. Unless he started compiling Gentoo or something b/c I don't want him there all weekend. :p

scxtt
July 17th, 2007, 03:41 AM
What stores? I'm guessing Circuit City was #1 and Best Buy was #2v1...exactly backwards :) ... bestbuy was very receptive; circuit city - well i question if CC#1 actually cares about its customers and making a sale ...

those 2 jerk employees probably knew they weren't gonna get any extra $$$ out of me for the usual incidentals they get most customers to buy - like anti-virus. spyware, etc. ... and $300-$400 for a warranty plan, i don't think so ;)

Dimitriid
July 17th, 2007, 03:44 AM
The store should specify what goes and what is not allowed and why. This is just dumb clerks without a clue, they let go things that are actually harmful like people tapping on the LCD, touching optical lens and what not but using a live cd is suddenly a sin?

If it was me I would have demanded a manager and proceed with a formal complain against the store, possibly even a lawsuit if thrown out of the premises.

scxtt
July 17th, 2007, 03:45 AM
You must not have heard of the Internet. You should have written down the model number so you could Google it later on for even better deals. Store prices can't be compared to Internet prices. Internet always beat stores, and I have never bought a computer from a store; just the Internet.cute ... there's quite a big difference b/t writing down some specs and ACTUALLY using the laptop ... every one of those laptops / desktops are sitting out for customers to test-drive - if they weren't, why would anyone even bother going to a store, like you said, they're rarely cheaper from any of these major retailers ... i like this laptop well enough to pay ~$50more and not have to wait and to be absolutely assured it works w/ at least 1 flavor of linux i like ... and after i was "banned", i came home and looked at newegg and buy.com - no dice ...

and w/ the way they lock them down, so you can't walk off w/ them - why don't they lock down the cd/dvd drives --- i fail to see why it's such a big deal - it's not as tho anyone in these stores actually care about those demo boxes ... i saw at least 2 dozen neglected, beat up ones b/t the 3 stores ...

Spaceman3750
July 17th, 2007, 03:46 AM
Ugh, I don't like the floor guys at Best Buy... Geek Squad or regular employees. They aren't interested in helping you, they're interested in selling things, even if it means leaving part of the truth out...

He had my mom sold on buying a "wireless everywhere" card from them, until I reminded her of something he hadn't, that it's another $50/mo on your cell bill... I'm sure there was more that I don't remember.

I think he may have promoted Vista too...

scxtt
July 17th, 2007, 03:49 AM
i never had an experience like that, thankfully :P glad you snagged the lappy you wanted though, the good thing about chains are that the same products exist in more than one place :guitar:very true, and there was even an added bonus that it was $50 cheaper at CC#2 ... so those guys being jerks actually saved me some $$$ ... i also find it odd that CC can't coordinate prices b/t 2 stores that are w/in 20min of eachother ...

KiwiNZ
July 17th, 2007, 03:51 AM
The store should specify what goes and what is not allowed and why. This is just dumb clerks without a clue, they let go things that are actually harmful like people tapping on the LCD, touching optical lens and what not but using a live cd is suddenly a sin?

If it was me I would have demanded a manager and proceed with a formal complain against the store, possibly even a lawsuit if thrown out of the premises.

A law suite against the store for mis-use of store property ? yeah that will work . But would add to my previous post in this thread about perceptions of the linux community:rolleyes:

~LoKe
July 17th, 2007, 03:51 AM
Are you seriously stupid? You don't just go popping CD's into their computers. Who knows what could be on them. Hell, you could be spreading viruses for all they know.

Jesus Christ, next time actually ask someone if you could give it a go, instead of getting all offended when they do their job and protect their asses.

scxtt
July 17th, 2007, 03:52 AM
You should have asked in the first place. You deserved to be banned.i (respectfully) disagree, especially since there's nothing (posted signage or physically barred access) that would lead me to believe i can't put in a LiveCD or music cd (if i want to test drive the audio) ... esp. when retailers like this are notorious for not being available to consult w/ ...

fact of the matter is there was NO dialog between myself or those CC#1 employees - they started in on me from the get-go ...

TheMono
July 17th, 2007, 03:54 AM
I'm a student, and I work in retail part time. There are a lot of people who just want to sell, but if you can find a salesperson you trust, that seems to know what they're talking about, they are like gold. The salesperson can - and will, if they are good - tell you plenty of stuff that isn't advertised on the machines, like the reliability of that particular model, how soon a newer model will be coming in, and the like. So retail stores are the way to go, but it is hard to find someone worth their salt.

Disclaimer: I work with TV's, and am not in the states.

scxtt
July 17th, 2007, 03:55 AM
Actually, these are demo/display units that are provided for customers to test drive the machines. There is typically no signage guiding a potential customer as to what is acceptable or unacceptable behavior.

I would say he was dealing with fair use...

i agree whole-heartedly - and had they treated me w/ an ounce of respect (i do actually know what i'm doing) i would have even bought it there - i didn't even have a chance ... they were like vultures, it was disturbing ...

KiwiNZ
July 17th, 2007, 03:59 AM
Actually, these are demo/display units that are provided for customers to test drive the machines. There is typically no signage guiding a potential customer as to what is acceptable or unacceptable behavior.

I would say he was dealing with fair use...



Fair use? nonsense ...they are display units not public property

scxtt
July 17th, 2007, 04:00 AM
Hardly. You have no right to place any media in a laptop or PC in a shop without getting permission from the staff first. After all, it isn't your computer yet, is it? I've found that most outlets are quite happy to let you test live CDs if you ask first.

It's just common sense and courtesy really. Would you walk into a car lot and take a vehicle for a test drive without consulting a sales person first? (okay, so you might need to hotwire the car to do this...don't be picky!)i disagree - i think the onus is on them to make such things unavailable if it is indeed such a negative thing ... the optical drives are not hindered in any way - even a piece of tape would have deterred me, or a sign - anything that made it clear ... common sense or not - i'm the one what is spending $$$ and NO ONE deserves to be treated like that as a consumer ... it's not like i took one out of the box and pretended it was mine, it's the DEMO - what else is it there for, they all come w/ a restore partition for vista and mine even came w/ a disk copy of the OS ...

funnily enough, your car analogy was used by the "manager" @ CC#1, almost to the letter ... :lol:

qamelian
July 17th, 2007, 04:00 AM
i (respectfully) disagree, especially since there's nothing (posted signage or physically barred access) that would lead me to believe i can't put in a LiveCD or music cd (if i want to test drive the audio) ... esp. when retailers like this are notorious for not being available to consult w/ ...

fact of the matter is there was NO dialog between myself or those CC#1 employees - they started in on me from the get-go ...

They shouldn't need to post what you can and can't do with something that is NOT your property. You can disagree all you want, but it's still discourteous behaviour. While I wouldn't have banned you from the store, I would have asked you to consult with the staff before doing such a thing again.

I don't see signs in stores telling me not to eat my groceries or snacks before I pay for them, but I no better than to do that. It's just common sense, for crying out loud!

Dimitriid
July 17th, 2007, 04:01 AM
A law suite against the store for mis-use of store property ? yeah that will work . But would add to my previous post in this thread about perceptions of the linux community:rolleyes:

1) I cannot "misuse" anything if nobody specifies what constitutes as a "misuse"

2) If I comply to the store clerks request to stop immediately, given the fact that im pretty sure there is no "rules for using this demo pc: do not use live cds" anywhere I see no reason to be thrown out and banned and Id count that as discrimination.

Standing up a little bit to the clerk will give you even more grounds ( he'd probably get on even more of a power trip and try to get the police involved ) and the store manager or whoever is up the chain will probably thrown money at you to shut you up if you threaten a lawsuit anyway.

As for your perceptions I rather not be perceived as a pushover who buries his head in the sand.

tbroderick
July 17th, 2007, 04:02 AM
i (respectfully) disagree, especially since there's nothing (posted signage or physically barred access) that would lead me to believe i can't put in a LiveCD or music cd (if i want to test drive the audio) ... esp. when retailers like this are notorious for not being available to consult w/ ...

fact of the matter is there was NO dialog between myself or those CC#1 employees - they started in on me from the get-go ...

There's no sign saying I can't light the computer on fire either. You could have been wiping the hard drive, loading a virus, or installing porn. They have no idea what your intentions are unless you tell them. All you had to do was ask someone. Use a little common sense. You are lucky they didn't treat your case as vandalism.

Dimitriid
July 17th, 2007, 04:03 AM
They shouldn't need to post what you can and can't do with something that is NOT your property. You can disagree all you want, but it's still discourteous behaviour.

Oh but kicking a customer out of the store and banning him is not discourteous behavior? Thats even borderline illegal behavior right there. If they specifically say "don't do that" and you stop there is no reason to take it further, discourteous or not.

qamelian
July 17th, 2007, 04:04 AM
i disagree - i think the onus is on them to make such things unavailable if it is indeed such a negative thing ... the optical drives are not hindered in any way - even a piece of tape would have deterred me, or a sign - anything that made it clear ... common sense or not - i'm the one what is spending $$$ and NO ONE deserves to be treated like that as a consumer ... it's not like i took one out of the box and pretended it was mine, it's the DEMO - what else is it there for, they all come w/ a restore partition for vista and mine even came w/ a disk copy of the OS ...

funnily enough, your car analogy was used by the "manager" @ CC#1, almost to the letter ... :lol:

The onus is not on them. It's their bloody property! You are the one who MIGHt be spending money. However, the store runs the risk of damaged merchandise by you messing around with their inventory. You no rights until you have actually purchased the product. Up until that time, all rights regarding the product belong to the current owner...the store.

Dimitriid
July 17th, 2007, 04:05 AM
There's no sign saying I can't light the computer on fire either. You could have been wiping the hard drive, loading a virus, or installing porn. They have no idea what your intentions are unless you tell them. All you had to do was ask someone. Use a little common sense. You are lucky they didn't treat your case as vandalism.

Thats ridiculous, being ignorant is not an excuse to compare using legitimate software to vandalism.

qamelian
July 17th, 2007, 04:06 AM
Oh but kicking a customer out of the store and banning him is not discourteous behavior? Thats even borderline illegal behavior right there. If they specifically say "don't do that" and you stop there is no reason to take it further, discourteous or not.

If it's my store and the customer is behaving in what I perceive to be an inappropriate manner, then it is my prerogative to ban the customer. And it is not illegal anywhere I have ever travelled in North America.

randytuggle
July 17th, 2007, 04:07 AM
I knew you were talking about Circuit City and Best Buy when you were telling your story! If I were you, I would just go onto CircuitCity.com and buy the system you liked and have it shipped to your home. For fun, go into Circuit City and get the inexperienced FireDog geeks to give you some advice on which computer to buy! They didn't ban you from the store - they just wanted you to stop playing with Linux. They were probably scared that some other customer would take a look at the computers you were playing with - and want it themselves! LOL!

Spaceman3750
July 17th, 2007, 04:08 AM
I don't really think that it's OK for someone to walk up and pop a CD in, but the manager's response was also unwarranted and overly-drastic. All it took was a simple "Sir, may I ask what is on that CD?", and you could have told him "It's various live CDs for distributions of Linux. Would you like me to pull up the websites for you?".

qamelian
July 17th, 2007, 04:12 AM
Thats ridiculous, being ignorant is not an excuse to compare using legitimate software to vandalism.

You have no right to make that judgement call regarding the store's property. Remember, a few years ago the hardware detection script in Mandrake/Mandriva was damaging optical drives by wiping out the firmware and rendering many LG optical drive unusable. When you put your own media into a demo machine in a store, the store has no way of knowing that your media won't in some way damage the machine. To test live CDs in a demo machine without getting approval first, is discourteous and irresponsible. It's something I might expect a kid to do without thinking, but never a responsible adult. In fact, most kids I know would no better.

rickyjones
July 17th, 2007, 04:12 AM
Seems pretty simple to me... Do you own it? If yes, then go ahead and put the live CD in. If no, then get permission first.

Just because my door is unlocked gives you no right to walk into my house without my permission. Argue it anyway you want to - if I was the manager I would have kicked you out as well.

-Richard

Dimitriid
July 17th, 2007, 04:15 AM
If it's my store and the customer is behaving in what I perceive to be an inappropriate manner, then it is my prerogative to ban the customer. And it is not illegal anywhere I have ever travelled in North America.

This was NOT inappropiate since HE IMMEDIATELY STOPPED after he was asked to. If you run a store like that you will most likely run it into the ground and I could easily argue discrimination and probably settle in my favor. Your rights as a store manager are not greater than my rights as a consumer just because you think you can shut me up.

shen-an-doah
July 17th, 2007, 04:16 AM
I think quite frankly both parties were in the wrong. You weren't polite enough to just ask someone what you could do with their computers and then they weren't polite when it came to finding out what you were doing.

Purely personally, I think you're an idiot.

Dimitriid
July 17th, 2007, 04:17 AM
Seems pretty simple to me... Do you own it? If yes, then go ahead and put the live CD in. If no, then get permission first.

Just because my door is unlocked gives you no right to walk into my house without my permission. Argue it anyway you want to - if I was the manager I would have kicked you out as well.

-Richard

Your private residence is not the same as a public store, your analogy is flawed.

scxtt
July 17th, 2007, 04:19 AM
Doing this sort of thing actually damages the reputation of the Linux community and reinforces the poor inmpression people have of it.w/ all due respect (and i mean it) i find that to be utter nonsense ...

KiwiNZ
July 17th, 2007, 04:22 AM
Your private residence is not the same as a public store, your analogy is flawed.


The store or its goods are NOT public property

KiwiNZ
July 17th, 2007, 04:23 AM
w/ all due respect (and i mean it) i find that to be utter nonsense ...

I am not surprised:roll:

scxtt
July 17th, 2007, 04:24 AM
A law suite against the store for mis-use of store property ? yeah that will work . But would add to my previous post in this thread about perceptions of the linux community:rolleyes:i highly doubt they could prove "mis-use" from loading up a LiveCD into RAM ... i wouldn't sue over something like this, but they wouldn't have a case against me - they'd have nothing @ all ...

KiwiNZ
July 17th, 2007, 04:27 AM
I am actively involved with trying to get Enterprise users etc to take up open source. Its a tough battle.
If they read episodes like this it puts back the efforts and damages the reputation. It is very hard to convince Enterprise leaders that the community is a group of professionals when they read things like this.

scxtt
July 17th, 2007, 04:28 AM
They shouldn't need to post what you can and can't do with something that is NOT your property. You can disagree all you want, but it's still discourteous behaviour. While I wouldn't have banned you from the store, I would have asked you to consult with the staff before doing such a thing again.

I don't see signs in stores telling me not to eat my groceries or snacks before I pay for them, but I no better than to do that. It's just common sense, for crying out loud!you know, i don't disagree w/ the 1st part - they shouldn't have to, and i don't really believe it would happen - but the way they handled themselves and treated me is unconscionable in the world of retail - they did EVERYTHING wrong, EVEN after i complied ...

as far as the 2nd part - that's a completely flawed comparison ... when i was done, nothing was changed / damaged / taken - there was no loss ... same goes for what someone said about just walking into their house ...

qamelian
July 17th, 2007, 04:33 AM
This was NOT inappropiate since HE IMMEDIATELY STOPPED after he was asked to. If you run a store like that you will most likely run it into the ground and I could easily argue discrimination and probably settle in my favor. Your rights as a store manager are not greater than my rights as a consumer just because you think you can shut me up.

His putting the CD in the drive in the first place was inappropriate. And my rights as a store manager are greater than your rights as a consumer you have no rights regarding store inventory period. None. Until you have actually purchased the item, all rights to the handling of that item remain with the store. You can complain about it all you like, but that doesn;t change the fact that you have no rights regarding a product until you have purchased it.

Also, you would have no grounds to argue discrimination because the same treatment would be applied to any customer behaving in the same way. There is no grounds for claiming discrimination unless you are being treated in a different manner from other customers.

scxtt
July 17th, 2007, 04:33 AM
Are you seriously stupid? You don't just go popping CD's into their computers. Who knows what could be on them. Hell, you could be spreading viruses for all they know.

Jesus Christ, next time actually ask someone if you could give it a go, instead of getting all offended when they do their job and protect their asses.yes, i'm "stupid" for thinking the customer is right, and/or intelligent and/or a human being that deserves respect ... you don't flip out on the customer, tell them to go to your competitor and that they can't come back in your store ... if they would have talked to me like a human being they would have found out i have a BS in computer science and work w/ production linux/windows environment 40 hours a week ...

but no, them "protecting their asses" is a much better approach - they def. gained from it ...

and if they want to "protect their ***", don't have an unencrypted, DHCP enabled wifi connection out in the open ...

Dimitriid
July 17th, 2007, 04:33 AM
The store or its goods are NOT public property

But it is open to the public nonetheless, so the same "rights" that would apply to your house do not apply, specially when it comes to trespassing which was the flawed analogy.

Ralob
July 17th, 2007, 04:35 AM
you know, i don't disagree w/ the 1st part - they shouldn't have to, and i don't really believe it would happen - but the way they handled themselves and treated me is unconscionable in the world of retail - they did EVERYTHING wrong, EVEN after i complied ...

as far as the 2nd part - that's a completely flawed comparison ... when i was done, nothing was changed / damaged / taken - there was no loss ... same goes for what someone said about just walking into their house ...

I think what they are saying is for you to look at it from their point of view. You are a stranger who put in a disc into a computer while an employee is on duty. YOU know it is Linux, but they didn't. If that computer was destroyed because the employee didn't do anything there would be hell to pay with their boss and so forth. Granted, they were wrong to act like they did, but putting a disc into a PC at a shop without asking would seem odd under any circumstances. But, that is just me. I am not saying your right or wrong, just saying you have to look at it from the store's point of view, too.

*slinks back to corner of neutrality*

Dimitriid
July 17th, 2007, 04:35 AM
His putting the CD in the drive in the first place was inappropriate. And my rights as a store manager are greater than your rights as a consumer you have no rights regarding store inventory period. None.

Items freely available for display that say "TRY ME" hardly count as "your inventory". Either define the scope of "TRY ME" or stop your ban happy, discriminating ways that mislead customers as an excuse to verbally abuse em and throw em out of the premises for no good reason.

scxtt
July 17th, 2007, 04:37 AM
There's no sign saying I can't light the computer on fire either. You could have been wiping the hard drive, loading a virus, or installing porn. They have no idea what your intentions are unless you tell them. All you had to do was ask someone. Use a little common sense. You are lucky they didn't treat your case as vandalism.what is that, a strawman? i bet it is ... there is no correlation b/t what i did and physical damage ... at the very least, i'm innocent until proven guilty ...

honestly, i don't see it as a matter of common sense as much as it is a consumer-right issue - and they really dropped the ball ... to bad i didn't get it on tape, a real shame ...

vandalism, ha - hope you realize how off base you are w/ a statement like that ... 2 minutes w/ a store manager (or someone w/ a brain) and it could have been easily resolved, if they were actually serious about me doing something negative ...

KiwiNZ
July 17th, 2007, 04:38 AM
But it is open to the public nonetheless, so the same "rights" that would apply to your house do not apply, specially when it comes to trespassing which was the flawed analogy.

Wrong

scxtt
July 17th, 2007, 04:39 AM
As for your perceptions I rather not be perceived as a pushover who buries his head in the sand.i was a bit disappointed in myself for just leaving - i technically did no wrong - but i knew i didn't want to give that store any of my $$$ ... and i wasn't gonna hold my breath that i'd get anything beneficial from them ... and really, i don't need their charity ...

KiwiNZ
July 17th, 2007, 04:40 AM
what is that, a strawman? i bet it is ... there is no correlation b/t what i did and physical damage ... at the very least, i'm innocent until proven guilty ...

honestly, i don't see it as a matter of common sense as much as it is a consumer-right issue - and they really dropped the ball ... to bad i didn't get it on tape, a real shame ...

vandalism, ha - hope you realize how off base you are w/ a statement like that ... 2 minutes w/ a store manager (or someone w/ a brain) and it could have been easily resolved, if they were actually serious about me doing something negative ...

No you dropped the ball.

You were out of line , you got caught , and no amount of feet stamping will change that .

qamelian
July 17th, 2007, 04:41 AM
you know, i don't disagree w/ the 1st part - they shouldn't have to, and i don't really believe it would happen - but the way they handled themselves and treated me is unconscionable in the world of retail - they did EVERYTHING wrong, EVEN after i complied ...

as far as the 2nd part - that's a completely flawed comparison ... when i was done, nothing was changed / damaged / taken - there was no loss ... same goes for what someone said about just walking into their house ...

But there could have been loss. Read my previous post about Mandrake hardware detection crippling some optical drives. Suppose for some unlike reason, a flaw in the liveCD caused the same or similar problem. Why should the store risk damaged inventory because you failed to check with them before using the disc? If such had happened, would you have been willing to shoulder the cost of the damage. I guarantee you that it would not be covered by warranty on the unsold machine.

As I said previously, I probably wouldn't have barred you, but I would have warned you not to do it again without consulting someone on staff. Unfortunately, that is just me. Unless you can prove some form of malice on the part of the store staff, they are within their legal rights to bar you from the store for as long as they want. At least, they can pretty much anywhere in North America.

scxtt
July 17th, 2007, 04:43 AM
I don't really think that it's OK for someone to walk up and pop a CD in, but the manager's response was also unwarranted and overly-drastic. All it took was a simple "Sir, may I ask what is on that CD?", and you could have told him "It's various live CDs for distributions of Linux. Would you like me to pull up the websites for you?".i tried, they wouldn't have any of it ... once i told them what it was, that's when the "manager" got unruly ...

Dimitriid
July 17th, 2007, 04:43 AM
Wrong

Trespassing rights are really not comparable to rights over store "inventory" ( already established its hardly just inventory in the previous post ). A better analogy could have been made to prove the same point and I really do not see how that is not up to personal opinion in which your "wrong" statement would be pointless.

shen-an-doah
July 17th, 2007, 04:45 AM
I think what you're missing here is that while the staff did overreact, any store reserves the right to refuse custom to anyone they choose.

While what they did may have been bad from a customer service point of view, the fact is that they didn't do anything that counts as discrimination or otherwise. You don't have a leg to stand on.

Also, the fact that they didn't talk to you and ask what your education was or whatever, has no real bearing on this. I could quite easily walk into a store, stick in a CD and upload a virus and when they ask me what I'm doing, say "Oh, I'm just testing some software on this machine, it's Ok, I've got a degree in computer science!" :rolleyes:

scxtt
July 17th, 2007, 04:45 AM
Purely personally, I think you're an idiot.and what does a statement like that say about you?

KiwiNZ
July 17th, 2007, 04:46 AM
Trespassing rights are really not comparable to rights over store "inventory" ( already established its hardly just inventory in the previous post ). A better analogy could have been made to prove the same point and I really do not see how that is not up to personal opinion in which your "wrong" statement would be pointless.

inventory = stock: the merchandise that a shop has on hand;

shen-an-doah
July 17th, 2007, 04:48 AM
and what does a statement like that say about you?

That I reserve my right to make a judgement about a person based on what I know about them? That I believe in using common sense? That I have an opinion that you can choose to take to heart or ignore completely?

Probably a fair few other things as well, but I'm sure you'll let me know what those are.

qamelian
July 17th, 2007, 04:50 AM
what is that, a strawman? i bet it is ... there is no correlation b/t what i did and physical damage ... at the very least, i'm innocent until proven guilty ...

honestly, i don't see it as a matter of common sense as much as it is a consumer-right issue - and they really dropped the ball ... to bad i didn't get it on tape, a real shame ...

vandalism, ha - hope you realize how off base you are w/ a statement like that ... 2 minutes w/ a store manager (or someone w/ a brain) and it could have been easily resolved, if they were actually serious about me doing something negative ...

It is not a consumer rights issue. You are not considered a consumer until you actually purchaser a product. At this stage, you were a potential customer. That's all. If you had got it all on tape it would have made no difference. All it would have done is confirm that you were caught doing something inappropriate with an item of store property. What part of "It's not your property yet." don't you understand? If the computer arrived from the factory with Windows pre-installed and is placed on display, it is meant for potential customers to test that configuration. If you want to test anything other than the standard setup, it is your responsibility to get permission from the store to do your test on THEIR hardware. Again, this concept is not rocket science. It is simply common courtesy.

KiwiNZ
July 17th, 2007, 04:51 AM
I think we have seen enough here

Dimitriid
July 17th, 2007, 04:52 AM
inventory = stock: the merchandise that a shop has on hand;

I already mentioned "try me" labels and such misleading a customer make a definitive difference between regular "stock" and display inventory. It would be as unreasonable as trying to charge somebody with stealing inventory that has "Free copies, take one" on them.

scxtt
July 17th, 2007, 04:54 AM
I think what you're missing here is that while the staff did overreact, any store reserves the right to refuse custom to anyone they choose.yes, and if they keep that up - they'll pay for it ...

While what they did may have been bad from a customer service point of view, the fact is that they didn't do anything that counts as discrimination or otherwise. You don't have a leg to stand on.i have no opinion on the descrimination thing - but the fact remains that they overreacted w/ NO provocation and no PROOF that anything bad happened ... whatever all-powerful rights they have as property owners doesn't entitle them to treat anyone like that ...

Also, the fact that they didn't talk to you and ask what your education was or whatever, has no real bearing on this. I could quite easily walk into a store, stick in a CD and upload a virus and when they ask me what I'm doing, say "Oh, I'm just testing some software on this machine, it's Ok, I've got a degree in computer science!" :rolleyes:don't be so dense ...

shen-an-doah
July 17th, 2007, 04:54 AM
Ok, let's make an analogy here that should be pretty appropriate:

Say you've got some friends over and one's brought this guy you don't know very well. So this guy wants to try out something he's got on disk on your computer, would you prefer he asked first? And would you get a bit uppity if he just sat down and stuck his disk in without a word to you?

Dimitriid
July 17th, 2007, 04:55 AM
I think what you're missing here is that while the staff did overreact, any store reserves the right to refuse custom to anyone they choose.

So you are saying is ok If i refuse to sell things to a black man then? Didn't your country had huge ciivil rights movements to prevent that kind of discrimination?

Dimitriid
July 17th, 2007, 04:57 AM
It is not a consumer rights issue. You are not considered a consumer until you actually purchaser a product. At this stage, you were a potential customer. That's all. If you had got it all on tape it would have made no difference. .

Again that applies for being asked to stop, not being verbally abused and asked to leave the premises to never come back.

KiwiNZ
July 17th, 2007, 04:57 AM
cool off time

I will revisit this when everyone has had a coffee or tea or milk