View Full Version : Can The Government Monitor Your PC (ubuntu PC) Easier with Ubuntu?
sunami900
July 16th, 2007, 03:44 AM
If windows is like so secure, and if Ubuntu is open source, which anyone could write code, wouldn't that mean it would be so easy for the gov to watch us?
Motoxrdude
July 16th, 2007, 03:49 AM
If windows is like so secure, and if Ubuntu is open source, which anyone could write code, wouldn't that mean it would be so easy for the gov to watch us?
That's why you download from ubuntu.com, not some odd-third-party site.
aktiwers
July 16th, 2007, 04:00 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8p9IU4zp7mU
RMS explains it good :)
swoll1980
July 16th, 2007, 04:03 AM
If windows is like so secure, and if Ubuntu is open source, which anyone could write code, wouldn't that mean it would be so easy for the gov to watch us?
You don't sleep much do you. :o
Henry Rayker
July 16th, 2007, 04:08 AM
Not really. The government will do as they please. Honestly, if they are "watching you" through your OS, it would be much easier to find/disable in a linux operating system than in a Windows one due to the fact that you can look at the code. Yes, I know you aren't a programmer, OP, but the thing is, at least the community (in which reside quite a few coders) will let these issues be known to the general public.
Also, anyone can write code for Windows too...if anything, it would be MUCH easier for them to spy on you via an application in Windows (perhaps Weatherbug or anything like that). Because the app has some sort of usefulness to you, you will install it, not knowing that it also performs some other action. In an open-source environment, the code is more honest. You can stick your hands in there and check to see if you're being watched or whatever.
One other point: who in the hell ever said Windows was secure? Anyone who claims that Windows is a secure system is either A) on drugs, B) legally retarded, C) Works for MS or D) Has no idea what in the hell they are talking about. If Windows were so secure, my Windows XP machine wouldn't need an anti-virus program, 2 anti-spyware programs and a firewall. My linux machines run a simple firewall...nothing more...and I still have fewer "security breaches" than I had in Windows.
some_random_noob
July 16th, 2007, 04:09 AM
He may be talking about the fact that anyone can read the code and find security holes in it - the answer is that the good guys will find the exploits first and fix them. Now slap yourself for being silly :)
lisati
July 16th, 2007, 04:09 AM
If windows is like so secure, and if Ubuntu is open source, which anyone could write code, wouldn't that mean it would be so easy for the gov to watch us?
Simple Security precautions:
Don't turn your computer on
Don't have your computer plugged into any phone line
Don't have any wireless connections
Don't have any connection to a power suply
If you don't have your computer connected to anything else or switched on, how could anyone get into it to spy on you without your knowledge?
mdsmedia
July 16th, 2007, 04:19 AM
Simple Security precautions:
Don't turn your computer on
Don't have your computer plugged into any phone line
Don't have any wireless connections
Don't have any connection to a power suply
If you don't have your computer connected to anything else or switched on, how could anyone get into it to spy on you without your knowledge?I'm sure that'll make the OP sleep better ;)
I guess if you don't have anything to hide, who cares what the government sees. On the other hand, the other malicious coders (let's assume they're non-government) do worry me, and that's WHY I feel FAR more secure with Open Source than proprietary code.
In fact, I'm less worried about the government watching me than I am about MS watching me.
Polygon
July 16th, 2007, 09:18 AM
a lot of goverments are switching to linux because there have been concerns that agencies like the NSA and such are using windows to spy on other countries. I believe there was some controversy that there was a secret authentication key in windows xp or something, and only two were owned by microsoft, the third one was thought to be owned by the NSA or something
sure the code is open source, but that means there are also good people looking at it fixing security holes and such. It would be harder for the goverment to spy on a linux machine is because they ahve to install it themselfs, with windows, its already installed for them. they *might* (if the above statement is true) already have access to the entire system, while with linux they have to figure out a way to get the spying stuff on your computer.
mcduck
July 16th, 2007, 11:01 AM
If windows is like so secure, and if Ubuntu is open source, which anyone could write code, wouldn't that mean it would be so easy for the gov to watch us?
Even when anyone can write code, they wouldn't get the code into official projects. At least not without somebody reading through it first..
For example, source code for Firefox is openly available. If I take the code and add some nasty virus into it, the bad firefox version is still only on my computer, not on Mozilla's or Ubuntu's servers.. Before it could cause problems to anybody lese either I'd have to somehow fool Mozilla guys to take my code and add it into their own without even reading it, or put my own version of the program available somewhere and hope for stupid people to download Firefox from my page instead of getting it from Mozilla or Ubuntu's repositories.
In windows downloading and installing programs from random websites is a lot more common than in Linux world where we just use our distro's package management. So there's one more thing Linux does in safer way than Windows ;)
az
July 16th, 2007, 11:14 AM
If windows is like so secure, and if Ubuntu is open source, which anyone could write code, wouldn't that mean it would be so easy for the gov to watch us?
No. It would be easier for a government to spy on proprietary software. That's exactly why some people are zealous about software freedom. With free-libre software, you can know exactly what your computer is doing. Not so with proprietary computer.
A computer running closed-source proprietary software is a black box. One that is running open source software is transparent.
But does transparent mean that all the data in the computer are visible? No. The code (the methods and instructions) are transparent. You know for a fact that your computer is not listening or broadcasting to the network; how can anyone spy on it, then?
Tomosaur
July 16th, 2007, 12:18 PM
I'm sure that'll make the OP sleep better ;)
I guess if you don't have anything to hide, who cares what the government sees. On the other hand, the other malicious coders (let's assume they're non-government) do worry me, and that's WHY I feel FAR more secure with Open Source than proprietary code.
In fact, I'm less worried about the government watching me than I am about MS watching me.
I absolutely despise this mentality. Just because I have nothing to hide doesn't mean I should just accept an invasion of my privacy. In any case, how the hell is the government supposed to know I'm not 'hiding' anything? What if I have pictures of young relatives? What if I'm studying chemistry and have details about volatile materials? What if I have information about certain 'organisations' - not because I sympathise with them, but because I am just interested and want to know more?
The fact is, a third party who is actively looking for suspicious / illegal stuff is almost certainly going to find something which will show you in a bad light. Even if I'm not actually doing anything illegal, the very fact that I can be held under suspicion is of major inconvenience. It's not likely to happen, but it's certainly not acceptable to just sit by and say 'oh well'. Added to this, there's no telling what may be deemed 'suspicious' in the future. It's far, far better to be vigilant in protecting your own privacy than it is to let innocent people be monitored for no good reason.
As to the actual question - no, it's actually much more difficult for the government to do such things on Ubuntu, or any Linux distribution. The repository system means every piece of software you download is clean, does what it says it does, and every update to that software undergoes the same process. If you download from third party sites, then you take these risks voluntarily. If the software is open source, then you can pretty much guarantee that anything malicious would be made public very quickly, and, most importantly, disabled and removed. You have no such guarantees with closed-source software, because you simply don't know what is really going on behind the scenes.
Old Pink
July 16th, 2007, 12:26 PM
What's so special about you? Why are they watching you?
Just put a few extra coathangers on the ceiling, and a bit more foil over your head. :)
PartisanEntity
July 16th, 2007, 12:51 PM
An interesting thread topic. Yes it is of course possible for governments to edit the source code, but then they would have to find a way to make unsuspecting users download that version of the code.
How would they do that? Set up a front company and pretend to be normal developers? Pretty soon experienced users would come across the security problems and if these are not fixed and are ignored then all would know that they have been put there intentionally and no one would use that application or OS anymore.
Another possibility would be for governments to try and exploit zero day bugs, i.e. bugs that no one knows about because they have not been discovered by others or documented yet. But most Linux based operating systems have such fast security bug fixing response times that it would not merit the effort.
It is much easier for governments to ask ISP’s to monitor your communications, since that would be OS indepenent.
Erik Trybom
July 16th, 2007, 01:01 PM
This is, in fact, one of the very reasons why Richard Stallman uses free software (he's the founder of the Free Software Foundation and considered a guru in these matters).
If your entire OS and every program is open source, then you know for sure that it doesn't do anything you don't want it to. It won't crash just to make you buy a new version. It won't report on your activities to someone else. In short, it will only do what you want and not do what anyone else wants. With proprietary software, you just have to trust whoever wrote the code.
Even if you're not a programmer yourself, you can benefit from the fact that anyone can check the code. If someone writes an application that spies upon its user, it will be noticed sooner or later and there will be big headlines.
What the government can do is spying on your Internet traffic. Every machine connected to the Internet uses the same protocols, so it's not affected by your choice of OS. However, that is a matter of politics and not of software.
graabein
July 16th, 2007, 01:09 PM
I guess if you don't have anything to hide, who cares what the government sees. On the other hand, the other malicious coders (let's assume they're non-government) do worry me, and that's WHY I feel FAR more secure with Open Source than proprietary code.
In fact, I'm less worried about the government watching me than I am about MS watching me.
I don' t care if you or me or anyone else has nothing to hide or not, the main thing is that it is a personal computer and everyone's entitled to privacy no matter what country or government you live in.
primski
July 16th, 2007, 01:32 PM
...Anyone who claims that Windows is a secure system is either A) on drugs, B) legally retarded, C) Works for MS or D) Has no idea what in the hell they are talking about....
Why are you insulting people on drugs? I smoke pot, and i have never ever said win is secure :P
I agree about option B tho ;)
RedNikon
July 16th, 2007, 03:14 PM
<sarcasm>
It's harder for the government to monitor you using Windows. I work for the government. You can trust me.
</sarcasm>
runningwithscissors
July 16th, 2007, 03:20 PM
If windows is like so secure, and if Ubuntu is open source, which anyone could write code, wouldn't that mean it would be so easy for the gov to watch us?Yes.
Nezing
July 16th, 2007, 03:55 PM
I always thought your isp know who,and where you are anyway (ping) :(
amadeus266
July 16th, 2007, 04:50 PM
A knowledgeable computer user will be able to tell whether someone has breached their security whether they are running an open-source system or a proprietary one. The bad guys depend on the fact that there are far more NON-geeks out there. The problem with the government and potential spying comes in where they can not only view, but track, any data being transmitted or received by your machine over the internet, and unless you own your own ISP, you will never have control over that.
jgrabham
July 16th, 2007, 04:54 PM
I always thought your isp know who,and where you are anyway (ping) :(
My advice use a proxy
(and I think someones pullin a prank on me - I can hear voices coming out of my speakers telling me about DRM and other stuff - oh well, put on some music to cover it up :} )
Sammi
July 16th, 2007, 05:08 PM
Ah. The old closed source vs. open source security discussion.
You should check out "The Cathedral and the Bazaar". It's one of the definitive works on the subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cathedral_and_the_Bazaar
http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/
http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/cathedral-bazaar/
BoyOfDestiny
July 16th, 2007, 06:27 PM
Ok I might as well add something to this, Windows has some open ports and specific features built in to make it easier for forensics to get at your data and what you've been up to with your computer.
More recently with Vista
“From a defense perspective, it scares me to death,” says Barrett. “One of the things I have a hard time educating my clients on is the volume of data that’s now discoverable.”
http://www.abanet.org/journal/ereport/jy13tkjasn.html
Here is a list of Windows XP stuff, like index.dat (I did verify this on my machine several years back. A list of every website you've ever visited, even if you've cleared cache, cookies etc...), about raw sockets etc.
I apologize as it contains the M and Dollarsign.
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2004/10/298702.html
Enjoy it though.
EDIT: I should mention the last article is a bit over the top, but it does have some good facts in there alongside the speculation.
Old Pink
July 16th, 2007, 07:23 PM
The government have better ways to monitor you.
CCTV, phone lines, cellphone texts, following your car, following your person.
If they wanted to know what you were up to, they could find out, fact. And you could do nothing about it, they are the law. :)
jgrabham
July 16th, 2007, 07:44 PM
And you could do nothing about it, they are the law. :)
Emmigrate. Complain to the european court of human rights (unless you're in the US/Canada/Aus)
Atomic Dog
July 16th, 2007, 08:12 PM
Dry hook.
cleverselfreferentialname
July 19th, 2007, 07:39 AM
[QUOTE=mdsmedia;3026232]I guess if you don't have anything to hide, who cares what the government sees./QUOTE]
It's a control thing. I have nothing to hide, but it's still _my_ nothing, and so I'm going to hide it. I don't like the idea that people can find where I live with just my name or phone number.
Don't believe me? See www.zabasearch.com
macogw
July 19th, 2007, 08:01 AM
windows....secure.....i'm confused. that's not possible. microsoft and security are mutually exclusive.
windows vista includes code from the government anyway. they worked with MS on it's "security features" (so if you ever get arrested for downloading music videos on Vista, it's probably just that the government was watching with those back doors they planted and monitoring apps they added.........yes, i'd be VERY paranoid using a Vista system)
jrusso2
July 19th, 2007, 08:38 AM
Simple Security precautions:
Don't turn your computer on
Don't have your computer plugged into any phone line
Don't have any wireless connections
Don't have any connection to a power suply
If you don't have your computer connected to anything else or switched on, how could anyone get into it to spy on you without your knowledge?
You forgot you have to wear a tinfoil hat also
Tundro Walker
July 19th, 2007, 09:31 AM
In the United States, this used to be a ridiculous "conspiracy theorist" topic, where paranoid folks worried about the government tapping their computer for no reason. I say "ridiculous", because the Bill of Rights (was intended to) prevent the government from doing illegal search, seizure, etc w/o probable cause and warrant. This extended to tapping your phone and/or hacking your computer, including receiving internet traffic to/from your computer.
However, with the "good intent / bad execution" PATRIOT Act, the government can bend all kinds of rules to monitor citizens...cause, you know, citizens are the terrorists. We can kiss off the "innocent until proven guilty" flag-waving. The police have long-treated folks as guilty until proven innocent. The PATRIOT Act just pretty much documents that sentiment now. Basically, they took this "war on terror" from "let's make it easier to monitor foreign visitors" to "hey, everyone's guilty...it's just a matter of timing, so let's make it easy to monitor our own citizens, too."
Hell, even courts are having to FIGHT just to get documentation of what the FBI has been doing with their new PATRIOT Act powers...the FBI is not willingly giving up the information. That's scary. That's like you paying someone to watch your house, you give them a gun, and you ask them to log what they do with that gun. Then, you ask for those logs, and they say "no, sorry, I may work for you, but you don't need to know what I've been doing with your gun." See how stupid that sounds. But that's what's happening.
What does this have to do with the MIB's hacking your Ubuntu computer? Nothing. Then again, the MIB's don't fall under terrestrial jurisdiction...(LOL!)
satx
July 22nd, 2007, 06:43 AM
I can assure you that the US Govt is not interested in the Internet surfing habits of post-pubescent twits who have a penchant for looking at "nekkid" ladies. Whether one is using Linux or Windows is immaterial. Your MAC address/IP address/Registry pretty well identify you and your location.
What the Govt is interested in is post-Columbine copy cats, cyber-warfare being conducted by nation states against this government aimed at criminal financial exploitation, disruption of our economy, intellectual property theft, identity theft, and disruption of our economy through massive attack on our industrial infrastructure (power grids, air traffic control, nuclear power facilities, banking institutions, etc.).
Linux offers you, as an end user, a higher degree of safety because it is immune to the script kiddies, and because the end user base is a more sophisticated, more cyber-aware community, who wish to control their computer environment. SInce Microsoft is so globally pervasive, there is a higher return on investment in developing attack vectors for that OS. It suffers from badly written code, and it authors have yet to devise a methodology to prevent the primary failure mechanism- buffer overflows.Almost every API/application suffers from this innate flaw, not to mention that the kernel is crud.
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