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kleeman
July 18th, 2005, 05:49 PM
There was a very interesting talk by Mark at Debconf5 which was to an audience of many important Debian developers (including the DPL Brandon Robinson).

http://linux.blogweb.de/uploads/02-Ubuntu_Talk-Mark_Shuttleworth.mpeg

I guess what he was trying to achieve was to make peace with Debian after all the aggro recently

It raises in my mind a number of questions which were not very clear from his talk. The main one is:

What is the eventual aim of Ubuntu?

It seems clear that Mark is running the show (paying 20 top Debian developers) so his motivation is clearly central. I was surprised when he said that services by Canonical were not very important to the future as whenever he has been questioned about this in the past he has said this is the revenue model.

It was also clear that he is quite idealistic about the future of software.
It was also sort of clear he does not need any more money.

So here is my guess: He wants to knock off Microsoft as the leading software distributor and that this is a business/philanthropic aim perhaps in the mould of a modern politically and socially enlightened version of Cecil Rhodes (I know. Rhodes was not very nice in several ways but the vision thing is similarly large).

Just a wild guess and possibly quite wrong but I guess my point after listening was here is one very smart and very rich guy spending a lot of time on one linux distro which has spawned from undoubtedly the most technically proficient and idealistic distro namely Debian. All a bit mysterious and fascinating!

Kyral
July 18th, 2005, 06:15 PM
Ubuntu is great, Mr.Shuttleworth is cool. Anything to knock off MS and further the cause of the Open Source Movement is fine by me

damonw5
July 18th, 2005, 07:27 PM
...
Just a wild guess and possibly quite wrong but I guess my point after listening was here is one very smart and very rich guy spending a lot of time on one linux distro which has spawned from undoubtedly the most technically proficient and idealistic distro namely Debian. All a bit mysterious and fascinating!

Fascinating indeed! Ubuntu has succeeded because of this one man's smarts, idealism, and, I suppose his money never hurt Ubuntu's success :)

Lord Illidan
July 18th, 2005, 07:38 PM
Well, whom do you, prefer, this Shuttleworth, or Micheal Robertson, the founder of Linspire? Both are millionaires. Both want to knock off Microsoft a little, but Shuttleworth is content with funding his distro and not making any profit, while Robertson wants to make profit off Linux.
I have nothing against Linspire, by the way, because I think that newbies like I was (and still am) will benefit from it, but paying for a distro seems rather alien in my linux mindframe...especially when there are no light edition versions available..
I mean, Suse releases its distro on FTP servers every six months, while Mandriva has a light edition available for free. Linspire, on the otherhand has nothing to offer freely..
So Shuttleworth is the good guy, it seems...

poofyhairguy
July 18th, 2005, 07:57 PM
What is the eventual aim of Ubuntu?

About a hundred things. He wants an educational OS. He wants it to be a good desktop OS. He wants it to show the power of fre software. ETC.

matthew
July 18th, 2005, 07:58 PM
Very interesting. Shuttleworth seems like a great guy, and I certainly appreciate his support/creation of Ubuntu. Even without that he just seems likable. The few times I have been exposed to Robertson of Linspire fame he has not come across as well...actually seemed a tad bitter in the last interview I read. Hopefully he was just having a bad day. In any case I am glad to have as many as possible working for the benefit of the community.

Lord Illidan
July 18th, 2005, 10:27 PM
As I said, both are enhancing Linux as an OS, but I prefer Shuttleworth, as he is less "selfish" than Robertson. It is just a perception of mine, of course, and I have never used Linspire, but, I have associated Linux with freedom, even from price.
Of course, I have never donated a cent, but as soon as I get old enough for a credit card, I will donate...Ubuntu being my preference..

maruchan
July 18th, 2005, 11:49 PM
I thought this was a pretty cool video. Thanks for the link.

Can someone explain what a "delta" is? He keeps talking about "anytime there is a delta, blah blah blah".

NoTiG
July 19th, 2005, 12:05 AM
One of the things he said was that .. if you concentrate on too many things at once, and suboptimize, it leads to misery. I think that is a perfect anecdote of my life :P If only i had control of my desires........

He seems like a cool guy. I didnt like him before but now after actually watching him i do.

kleeman
July 19th, 2005, 12:19 AM
My understanding of a delta is that it is a difference from Debian of a particular kind.




I thought this was a pretty cool video. Thanks for the link.

Can someone explain what a "delta" is? He keeps talking about "anytime there is a delta, blah blah blah".

egon spengler
July 19th, 2005, 12:19 AM
Well, whom do you, prefer, this Shuttleworth, or Micheal Robertson, the founder of Linspire? Both are millionaires. Both want to knock off Microsoft a little, but Shuttleworth is content with funding his distro and not making any profit, while Robertson wants to make profit off Linux.
I have nothing against Linspire, by the way, because I think that newbies like I was (and still am) will benefit from it, but paying for a distro seems rather alien in my linux mindframe...especially when there are no light edition versions available..
I mean, Suse releases its distro on FTP servers every six months, while Mandriva has a light edition available for free. Linspire, on the otherhand has nothing to offer freely..
So Shuttleworth is the good guy, it seems...

the gpl allows for selling so why is he so evil for selling? plus don't forget that linspire comes with licensed codecs and those have to be paid for somehow. personally i can't imagine ever paying for linux but if some do then what's the problem? i thought you was a fan of freedom, why would you look badly at someone for doing something neither illegal nor immoral just because you personally would not do it?

poofyhairguy
July 19th, 2005, 08:15 AM
the gpl allows for selling so why is he so evil for selling? plus don't forget that linspire comes with licensed codecs and those have to be paid for somehow. personally i can't imagine ever paying for linux but if some do then what's the problem? i thought you was a fan of freedom, why would you look badly at someone for doing something neither illegal nor immoral just because you personally would not do it?

I kinda like Linspire. When people bitch in the forum for the millionth time about "ubuntu lacking codecs by default" I can say "hey, if you can't use the ubuntu guide, there is a copy of Linspire waiting for you."

Lord Illidan
July 19th, 2005, 08:18 AM
the gpl allows for selling so why is he so evil for selling? plus don't forget that linspire comes with licensed codecs and those have to be paid for somehow. personally i can't imagine ever paying for linux but if some do then what's the problem? i thought you was a fan of freedom, why would you look badly at someone for doing something neither illegal nor immoral just because you personally would not do it?

I didn't say he was evil. But I prefer Shuttleworth's way of doing it. Linspire is too much like Windows in that matter.

papangul
July 19th, 2005, 11:56 AM
There is nothing wrong with charging money, the problem is charging excessive or unreasonable money in a monopolistic market and selling crap like windows.
Charging money is good for the developer community, people can afford to quit their slaveries in companies like ms and start doing their own things, and sustain themselves and their family.

Mr. Electric Wizard
July 19th, 2005, 03:22 PM
Then there's always the "East Fork" Intel/Microsoft crap that is about to hit the fan next year... Yikes...
Never a better time to go exclusively Linux at home!
Losing freedom left and right!
Mark's a great guy no doubt.
Keep up the good work guys.
;-)

maruchan
July 19th, 2005, 05:27 PM
Man, I cannot *wait* to see all the new Linux desktop software that's going to start appearing as a result of this mass-migration :D

Please, someone think of the musicians!

az
July 19th, 2005, 06:25 PM
Man, I cannot *wait* to see all the new Linux desktop software that's going to start appearing as a result of this mass-migration :D

Please, someone think of the musicians!

Think of the third world. If cheap technology can penetrate there, you have an inestimable amount of manpower who, by nature of the software, can contribute back to it.

I think Ubuntu capitalizes on that aspect - sowing the seeds of open source community. I think Canonical want to develop their platform to be the best tool for attracting people to their product. As opposed to most other debian-based products in the past which have focused on the existing developers and packages.

On the other hand, Linspire wants to be like AOL. Is AOL evil? Just because your aunt can use AOL and get more out of it than another ISP, it don't take the choice away from you.

It pumps a lot of money into the infrastructure, and that is a good thing. Linspire pumps a lot of money into linux, too. They contribute their code back upstream, too.

This is not a for-or-against thing. You are not being asked to pick one. They both exist and both serve different needs.

"No one is poiting a gun to your head" (Kevin Carmony from Linspire said that)

GeneralZod
July 19th, 2005, 07:12 PM
Think of the third world. If cheap technology can penetrate there, you have an inestimable amount of manpower who, by nature of the software, can contribute back to it.

I can't quite recall how Brazil is classified, but I know that they are extremely receptive to OSS there. I think that they (more than China and India, even) will be a fantastic ally to Linux and Open Source in the coming years. The future is bright :D

egon spengler
July 19th, 2005, 07:27 PM
I can't quite recall how Brazil is classified, but I know that they are extremely receptive to OSS there. I think that they (more than China and India, even) will be a fantastic ally to Linux and Open Source in the coming years. The future is bright :D

I read the other day that microsoft was having talks with the Brazilian government to convince them that they should use ms products, hopefully Brazil won't be pressured and will make the decision that is best for them whether that be ms or oss.

On a side note America has been known to employ trade sanctions against countries not supporting American product (check the EU banana war and the floated possibility of sanctions against Korea because their policy of 40% of films that are shown publicly must be Korean is limiting potential American profit), is there any possibility that America might take a stand against any country that doesn't endorse microsoft on a national level?

maruchan
July 19th, 2005, 09:11 PM
is there any possibility that America might take a stand against any country that doesn't endorse microsoft on a national level?

No. There is just no way that would ever happen. People try to twist the issue to make it sound like the US Government is the dog being wagged by the Microsoft-owned tail, but something like this is just shooting way beyond the mark.

As techies, sometimes we look at things from too much of a techno-specific standpoint.

poofyhairguy
July 19th, 2005, 09:38 PM
People try to twist the issue to make it sound like the US Government is the dog being wagged by the Microsoft-owned tail, but something like this is just shooting way beyond the mark.

If the government was controlled by MS then it never would have gone to court. The real tail is soaked in oil....

kleeman
July 19th, 2005, 10:05 PM
Depends which government you mean. Clinton brought the anti-trust case while Bush effectively shelved it. Funny that M$ was a major campaign contributor.....

poofyhairguy
July 19th, 2005, 10:09 PM
Depends which government you mean. Clinton brought the anti-trust case while Bush effectively shelved it. Funny that M$ was a major campaign contributor.....

Bill learned how the US government works. Pay and get your way. Don't pay and someone else will and get THEIR way.

egon spengler
July 19th, 2005, 10:15 PM
No. There is just no way that would ever happen. People try to twist the issue to make it sound like the US Government is the dog being wagged by the Microsoft-owned tail, but something like this is just shooting way beyond the mark.

As techies, sometimes we look at things from too much of a techno-specific standpoint.

I wasn't speculating that microsoft runs the US government, more that the US government look out for the interests of American businesses. To my knowledge nobody has ever accused the banana industry of running the US yet when EU countries had the gall to trade with their former colonies instead of with American owned banana companies America imposed retaliatory tariff increases against certain imports from said countries untill they agreed to buy American instead of Carribean bananas.

agger
July 19th, 2005, 10:19 PM
A couple of years ago, Peru decided to go entirely with Open Source/Free Software in government, meaning an immediate loss to Microsoft and its monopoly on the desktop ...

At that time, the Peruvian science minister (I think) was summoned to a "talk" with the American ambassador on the subject - i.e., the American Embassy partook of an attempt to bully Peru back into line.

Recently, Bill Gates attempted to meet with Lula in Davos, but
was turned down (c.f. http://www.boingboing.net/2005/06/06/brazils_president_do.html) - but government pressure on "lesser" nations to which Microsoft "charity" might make a difference is still very tangible

fizgig
July 20th, 2005, 06:04 AM
Regarding the video... How cool would it have been to chill and drink beers with Mark after that talk.

maruchan
July 20th, 2005, 06:21 AM
How cool would it have been to chill and drink beers with Mark after that talk.

I just wanted a closer look at those shoes he was wearing! :-)

What was with the "I'm not going to have children" remark? Overpopulation isn't so bad that another Shuttleworth would harm anything.

Maybe if we can find Mark a wife (unless he has one?) women will begin mass-migrating to Ubuntu :D

ubuntp
July 20th, 2005, 11:04 AM
I watched the first few minutes and decided that the video is not that exciting, but the audio is very interesting. So i was wondering if there's a way to encode the audio from the mpeg to ogg and listen to it on my iRiver. Some time spent on google and gstreamer was no longer a big mystery (only a medium sized one) to me.

gst-launch-0.8 filesrc location=02-Ubuntu_Talk-Mark_Shuttleworth.mpeg ! mpegdemux name=demuxer ! {queue ! fakesink } { demuxer.! queue ! mad ! audioconvert ! vorbisenc ! filesink location=marks.ogg }

Isn't that beautiful.

And i just found out that you can even encode the audio to ogg while downloading the mpeg from the web! Just replace "filesrc location=some.mpeg" with "gnomevfssrc location=http://www.domain.com/some.mpeg". I'm impressed.

Someone should make a nice GUI for all of this.

darkmatter
July 20th, 2005, 11:35 AM
Excellent vid. It gives a very clear impression of where he wants to take Ubuntu (and Debian)

agger
July 22nd, 2005, 12:07 PM
Excellent vid. It gives a very clear impression of where he wants to take Ubuntu (and Debian)
Yes, the speech is very interesting, if at times a little bit too "techy" for me, since I'm not really so interested in the finer details of maintaining a Linux distro; which Shuttleworth as well as the Debian people are and should be, of course.

But it sounds like maybe Shuttleworth started out thinking that Canonical could make Ubuntu sustainable in itself, but is now considering so large a success that he doesn't want to make it depend on Canonical's financial success, so he's dedicated a large part of his personal fortune to ensure Ubuntu in the future.

Well, I think it is admirable that he's willing to simply spend his money in what he believes in rather than getting caught by the "hoard money/invest/reinvest" trap in which you find people like Bill Gates.

I also think Ubuntu is so good that he actually may end up doing a lot for free software.

Do I have some kind of caveat myself ...? Previously, I have been engaged in some mostly) political initiatives which have been completely unfounded, financially speaking, and have had to sustain themselved from day one; one way of doing this is not paying anybody and expect donations instead ...
So I was wondering: Can one man's being willing to pay a lot of people to do what he believes in (e.g., hiring Debian developers) replace the enormous momentum of having people willing to work gratis, to some extent sacrificing their financial careers in the process.

I think it's always a good thing if people can get paid doing what they believe they need to do, mind you, but can a philantropist contribution replace the momentum of having activists *willing* to do all this?

Another danger would lie in having a movement like the Ubuntu distro/software community depend entirely upon one person (and his money) - *but*, I also think it may not have to be much of a problem for Ubuntu - it seems Shuttleworth is very aware of that and has addressed it by setting up the Ubuntu Foundation, in his own words safeguarding Ubuntu for "the rest of our careers".

Well, we'll see about that, of course - but I think we're seeing a good start here.

newbie2
July 22nd, 2005, 12:30 PM
ubuntu not a member of DCC ??
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1839578,00.asp

az
July 22nd, 2005, 01:26 PM
ubuntu not a member of DCC ??
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1839578,00.asp

So what?

That is another project by a fromer DPL who is now somewhat insignificant in the whole debian picture.

Quote:"Ian Murdoch, founder of the Debian distribution and chairman, and chief strategist of Progeny, has been the driving force behind the DCC effort and the earlier, unsuccessful attempt to create a common business distribution around the LSB 2.0, the LCC (Linux Core Consortium). "



"so he's dedicated a large part of his personal fortune to ensure Ubuntu in the future."

A relatively small part, actually. He makes more in a week than Redhat, Novell Linux Desktop and the others put together, remember?


"Well, I think it is admirable that he's willing to simply spend his money in what he believes in rather than getting caught by the "hoard money/invest/reinvest" trap in which you find people like Bill Gates."

Actually, didn't Bill Gates fund a large part of Live 8? Doesn't he and his wife shove a ton of money into philantrophic projects?

The difference here is that Open Source does not need all that much money to work. It is already there. It is free, like sunshine. You just need a small amount of cash to "put it all together" or, in other words, harvest it. I think that when the marketshare hurdle will be a thing of the past, there will be less and less need for the "lender of last resort" that he describes.

He sees himself as helping or speeding up the change in the software development landscape. He beleives, like many people, that free and open source is the best development model. He beleives that free software can and already is better than proprietary. Companies in the near future will not be able to make ends meet by using the proprietary model anymore.

Knome_fan
July 22nd, 2005, 02:37 PM
So what?

That is another project by a fromer DPL who is now somewhat insignificant in the whole debian picture.

Quote:"Ian Murdoch, founder of the Debian distribution and chairman, and chief strategist of Progeny, has been the driving force behind the DCC effort and the earlier, unsuccessful attempt to create a common business distribution around the LSB 2.0, the LCC (Linux Core Consortium). "


Don't you think that calling the founder of Debian (after all, the ian in debain is him and the deb is his wife debra) a little strange, just because you don't seem to like him?

Don't get me wrong, Murdock has said some rather unintelligent things about Ubuntu, I agree, but that's no excuse for attacking him personally.

And wether a project that now has

credativ GmbH (site in German), Knoppix, LinEx (site in Spanish), Linspire, MEPIS LLC, Progeny Linux Systems Inc., Skolelinux, Sun Wah Linux Ltd., UserLinux, VA Linux Japan, and Xandros Inc.
on board and aims at giving debian a better standing in the bussiness world is insignificant is at least up for debate, imho.

graabein
July 22nd, 2005, 04:46 PM
I watched the first few minutes and decided that the video is not that exciting, but the audio is very interesting. So i was wondering if there's a way to encode the audio from the mpeg to ogg and listen to it on my iRiver. Some time spent on google and gstreamer was no longer a big mystery (only a medium sized one) to me.

Can you post a link to this audio file? I liked the presentation alot! Very interesting stuff. I hardly ever use XP since I installed Ubuntu.

maruchan
July 22nd, 2005, 05:05 PM
graabein, that is the greatest avatar ever.

az
July 22nd, 2005, 05:31 PM
Don't you think that calling the founder of Debian (after all, the ian in debain is him and the deb is his wife debra) a little strange, just because you don't seem to like him?

Don't get me wrong, Murdock has said some rather unintelligent things about Ubuntu, I agree, but that's no excuse for attacking him personally.

And wether a project that now has

on board and aims at giving debian a better standing in the bussiness world is insignificant is at least up for debate, imho.

Ian Murdock has really wierd views these days. His views do not reflect those of the Debian project. It is nothing personal, but all he does is whine when one of his projects fail.

If he were to become DPL again, then that would mean that he was the elected represenative of Debian.

Not gonna happen.

graabein
July 22nd, 2005, 05:32 PM
graabein, that is the greatest avatar ever.
Thanks! It's funny-cool isn't it? LOL

newbie2
July 22nd, 2005, 05:34 PM
http://img289.imageshack.us/img289/5967/circle4yv.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

...because of this picture ( and what it stands for )... i became a ubuntu fan ;-) ;-)

Knome_fan
July 22nd, 2005, 05:37 PM
His views do not reflect those of the Debian project.
And nobody claimed they did, so what's your point?


It is nothing personal, but all he does is whine when one of his projects fail.
Seeing that we are talking about some quite large project that seems to come together and that he started it I don't see how you come to that conclusion. And simply accusing someone of doing nothing but whining is a personal attack in my book.



If he were to become DPL again, then that would mean that he was the elected represenative of Debian.
Again, I totally fail to see the relevance of him not being DPL. Nobody claimed he was, nobody claimed he would try to become it again, so what's your point?

poofyhairguy
July 22nd, 2005, 05:42 PM
So I was wondering: Can one man's being willing to pay a lot of people to do what he believes in (e.g., hiring Debian developers) replace the enormous momentum of having people willing to work gratis, to some extent sacrificing their financial careers in the process.

I think it's always a good thing if people can get paid doing what they believe they need to do, mind you, but can a philantropist contribution replace the momentum of having activists *willing* to do all this?


Yep. In this world, money is a powerful force.

ubuntp
July 22nd, 2005, 06:14 PM
Can you post a link to this audio file? I liked the presentation alot! Very interesting stuff. I hardly ever use XP since I installed Ubuntu.
I made the audio myself from the mpeg, using the command i posted above.

az
July 22nd, 2005, 06:43 PM
"And nobody claimed they did, so what's your point?

Well, the statement: "ubuntu not a member of DCC ??"
seems to put a lot of importance in that project. My point is that this is not a "the-core-of-debian's-future-relies on this" kind of project. _My_ point was "so what?"


"Seeing that we are talking about some quite large project that seems to come together and that he started it I don't see how you come to that conclusion. And simply accusing someone of doing nothing but whining is a personal attack in my book. "

Do you think User Linux is also a large project? What about Xandros?

I do not know anything this DCC project other than it involves companies who do not share the same philosophy towards free software as Debian (I.E. They sell it) and it involves Ian Murdock, who, the first time I read one of his blogs, said he ran windows.
I am really not worried about Ubuntu not being a part of that project. Ubuntu does not sell software.


"Again, I totally fail to see the relevance of him not being DPL. Nobody claimed he was, nobody claimed he would try to become it again, so what's your point?"

The point is that people assume that he speaks for debian which is completely false. If he was the DPL, that would be different. The DPL is the only person who can singularly speak for debian.

This is not a new problem. People always seem to get the wrong impression about debian because they look at ONE conversation between a small number of developers on a mailing list. Ian Murdock is in the minority of DDs who are not delighted by Ubuntu.


Please let me know if I have led you to misunderstand me again.

Knome_fan
July 22nd, 2005, 07:10 PM
Well, the statement: "ubuntu not a member of DCC ??"
seems to put a lot of importance in that project.

And why not? If it's important or not sure is up for debate and probably only time will tell if it is, but it is an interesting project imho.



My point is that this is not a "the-core-of-debian's-future-relies on this" kind of project. _My_ point was "so what?"
You're right, it probably isn't this kind of project, but then again nobody claimed it was and Ian Murdock not being the current DPL doesn't really have much to do with this, does it?



"Seeing that we are talking about some quite large project that seems to come together and that he started it I don't see how you come to that conclusion. And simply accusing someone of doing nothing but whining is a personal attack in my book. "

Do you think User Linux is also a large project? What about Xandros?

Huh? I said bringing all those who are participating together makes it quite a large project, what does me thinking if Xandros also is a large project have to do with it? So you don't think it's quite a large project? Then what would be quite a large project for you?



I do not know anything this DCC project other than it involves companies who do not share the same philosophy towards free software as Debian (I.E. They sell it) and it involves Ian Murdock, who, the first time I read one of his blogs, said he ran windows.

So you don't know anything about it, just that some companies you accuse of selling free software
(btw., check out what the GNU project has to say about selling free software:


Many people believe that the spirit of the GNU project is that you should not charge money for distributing copies of software, or that you should charge as little as possible -- just enough to cover the cost.
Actually we encourage people who redistribute free software to charge as much as they wish or can. If this seems surprising to you, please read on.
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html)
and that someone you don't like because he was at some time using Windows (how evil...) are involved.
Impressive reasoning and still no excuse for an ad hominem attack on someone.



I am really not worried about Ubuntu not being a part of that project. Ubuntu does not sell software.
I agree with you. If the Ubuntu guys think joining this will help them achieve what they want to achieve, fine, they should join, if they think it won't, the should stay out.



"Again, I totally fail to see the relevance of him not being DPL. Nobody claimed he was, nobody claimed he would try to become it again, so what's your point?"

The point is that people assume that he speaks for debian which is completely false. If he was the DPL, that would be different. The DPL is the only person who can singularly speak for debian.

This is not a new problem. People always seem to get the wrong impression about debian because they look at ONE conversation between a small number of developers on a mailing list. Ian Murdock is in the minority of DDs who are not delighted by Ubuntu.

Ah, I see. So nobody here assumed he did, but as people do in general (do they, how do you know?) you preemptively pointed out two times that he wasn't DPL. The only thing confusing me is why you didn't point out that he doesn't speak for Debian, wouldn't that have been clearer?

az
July 22nd, 2005, 07:41 PM
"And why not? If it's important or not sure is up for debate and probably only time will tell if it is, but it is an interesting project imho."

And you are entitled to your opinion.


"You're right, it probably isn't this kind of project, but then again nobody claimed it was and Ian Murdock not being the current DPL doesn't really have much to do with this, does it?"

Actually, the way that the question was posed leads you to beleive that it is an important project. The fact that it is touted as being spearheaded by "the father of Debian" is misleading. That why it has everything to do with Ian Murdock no longer representing Debian.


"Huh? I said bringing all those who are participating together makes it quite a large project, what does me thinking if Xandros also is a large project have to do with it? So you don't think it's quite a large project? Then what would be quite a large project for you?"

This is my opinion, of course. Linspire seems to be the biggest and most helpful member of the list. I would not qualify it as a large project, more like scraping the bottom of the barrel. But this is my opinion, and I would never have spelled it out this way unless you asked.
It is unfair of me to say so, because I only have ever heard of half of the members on the list:

Xandros - Seem to have dropped off the planet in the last few years. Sell their product and do not give anything back.

User Linux - Disorganised disaster. Big promises that led nowhere.

Progeny - PGI, half-working Anaconda, Cater to red Hat customers. These guys really make debian look bad. They have the correct business model: You sell services, but not the software. They went out of business for a while because (according to the website) "Our customers want Debian, not Progeny". There are so many things they could have done to improve debian, but all they did was wallow behind.

Mepis: Same as Xandros, only more popular.

Knoppix: One free cd. One guy. Hire him.

Linspire: Wonderful company who sell free software. The AOL of linux. they give back to the community. They seem to be on a publicity boom, these days.

"So you don't know anything about it, just that some companies you accuse of selling free software
(btw., check out what the GNU project has to say about selling free software:

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html)"

You are coloring the event, aren't you? I said they sell software (not accuse!). I suppose I should say that many of them sell software, because I do not really know all of them. You used the word "accuse", not me. I do not see anything morally wrong with selling free software, only that it is not a sustainable business practice. It is also incompatible with Ubuntu's philosophy.


"and that someone you don't like because he was at some time using Windows (how evil...) are involved.
Impressive reasoning and still no excuse for an ad hominem attack on someone."

It is what it is. The statement he wrote was more like he used windows because he uses what works. Typically, a free software advocate makes something work with free software or does without it. I never said that he was a useless kneebiter or something personal like that. Ad hominem?


"Ah, I see. So nobody here assumed he did, "

The only ones "here" are you an me.


"you didn't point out that he doesn't speak for Debian, wouldn't that have been clearer?"

Didn't I?

Quote me: "That is another project by a fromer DPL who is now somewhat insignificant in the whole debian picture."

poofyhairguy
July 22nd, 2005, 07:51 PM
Linspire: Wonderful company who sell free software. The AOL of linux. they give back to the community. They seem to be on a publicity boom, these days.


More like:

Linspire: where I send people when they bitch about the lack of non free software in Ubuntu by default. Without them, there would be no way to pay to make things easier.

Knome_fan
July 22nd, 2005, 07:55 PM
Though I'm tempted to answer your post, I don't think continuing this discussion would lead to anything usefull and would only take this thread further off topic, so I restrain myself.

But just as you seem not to get what I was trying to say.
Although I agree with you that it isn't neccessarily a bad thing that Ubuntu isn't part of this project, there was no reason to lash out at other projects and Ian Murdock the way you did.
(Of course feel free to disagree with me on this, my comment that ending this discussion would be good was in no way meant to prevent you from answering to my critizism.)

poofyhairguy
July 22nd, 2005, 08:04 PM
But just as you seem not to get what I was trying to say.
Although I agree with you that it isn't neccessarily a bad thing that Ubuntu isn't part of this project, there was no reason to lash out at other projects and Ian Murdock the way you did.


Ok Knome_fan, you are smart so think about it. Ian lashed out at Ubuntu with FUD many times for no good reason. It might be better to take the high road and not lash back, but that is human.

az
July 22nd, 2005, 08:31 PM
I was ungratious towards Ian Murdock, but I do not think I lashed out at him. And it certainly is not because he whined about ubuntu packages on The Linux Link Tech show.

If I implied anything bad about Ian Murdock on a personal level, I apoligize.

ubuntu_demon
July 22nd, 2005, 09:01 PM
cool video!
I'm watching it now (got the link from ubuntu planet)

poofyhairguy
July 22nd, 2005, 11:05 PM
I was ungratious towards Ian Murdock, but I do not think I lashed out at him. And it certainly is not because he whined about ubuntu packages on The Linux Link Tech show..

Or his blog...or his interviews...

kleeman
July 22nd, 2005, 11:50 PM
If one was a little paranoid which of course I am not :smile: :smile: one might see a connection between the Murdock anti-Ubuntu FUD and the formation of DCC.

darkmatter
July 23rd, 2005, 02:04 AM
If one was a little paranoid which of course I am not :smile: :smile: one might see a connection between the Murdock anti-Ubuntu FUD and the formation of DCC.

Connection? What connection? :-\" 8-[

az
July 23rd, 2005, 02:21 AM
One of the first things that put me off was the .asp website.

ubuntu_demon
July 23rd, 2005, 02:50 AM
I kinda like Linspire. When people bitch in the forum for the millionth time about "ubuntu lacking codecs by default" I can say "hey, if you can't use the ubuntu guide, there is a copy of Linspire waiting for you."
I agree

PiTT
August 1st, 2005, 06:22 AM
I think I came a little late to the discussion, but anyways...

First, great video. I really admire Mark's work and dedication to the open source community. He has said himself that he could never had come to where he stands today if it hadn't been for open source, and now he tries to contribute back to it. He also seems like a really nice guy.

Oh, and I really liked his views on e-patents on the video, his point is really good to show people how absurd software patents are.

Secondly, since I saw some discussion about open source & Brazil a couple pages ago, let me give out my 2 cents on it (as a brazilian)...

Since president Lula (or Mr. da Silva, as people from outside Brazil call him) came into office, free / open source software (FOSS) has gained much attention. He reformulated the country's national TI institute (ITI) to respond directly to his office, and made FOSS 1st priority.

ITI's job is to a) create and organize the brazilian public key infrastructure and b) convert all public servers and desktops to FOSS, along with all the systems used by the public administration. Linux has been playing a major role for some time in lots of city halls across Brazil, and by now almost all ministeries have switched most of their computers to FOSS.

The federal governement has also create prograns to help sell computers with tax cuts to people of low income, with paymens spanning across 2 years and at very little interest, as long as they come with FOSS. Microsoft tried to lobby their Windows "Starter Edition" into this program, but the governement quickly refuted. Lula also refused to meet with Mr. Bill Gates at the world economic forum at Davos.

I believe that, if president Lula gets re-elected in 2006, FOSS will have a bright futere here in Brazil. However, most of the rightwing candidates do not support FOSS, they spell out the same FUD we hear from Microsoft and others. We'll just have to wait untill october 2006 (where we'll have presidential elections) to see... But if the elections were to take place today, the polls say Lula would win quite easyly, but that may change since his party is being accused of some corruption scandals that might affect his candidature, even though he's not involved directly.

newbie2
August 1st, 2005, 04:57 PM
Well, I think it is admirable that he's willing to simply spend his money in what he believes in rather than getting caught by the "hoard money/invest/reinvest" trap in which you find people like Bill Gates.
"Gates' assets outside of MSFT shares are not public. They are estimated to be at least equal to his holdings in MSFT as a conservative diversification strategy. His venture-capital investment gains in new start-ups are incalculable. Fortune magazine estimates that Gates' MSFT wealth alone expands at an average rate of $50 million per day or $35,000 per minute.
The gap between Mr Rich and Mr and Ms Average is 311 times as great in the Age of Gates as it was in the Age of Rockefeller, and historians called that the Age of Robber Barons. We have now the Age of Wealth by Divine Right in which one person can have his wealth increased by $50 million a day while almost half of the people of the world have to survive on less than $2 per day. ."Obscenity" is not an adequate term to describe this disparity"
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/GG28Dj01.html

kleeman
August 1st, 2005, 06:20 PM
/Rant
Yeah agger completely agree, It's called plutocracy and works as follows:

1) The large corporations (including M$) pay the running costs of the US political parties with a preference towards Republicans because they are more sympathetic
2) The congresspeople then pass "appropriate" legislation favouring the wealthy plutocrats.
2a) The Republican President shuts down "inconvenient" Justice Department anti trust cases such as the M$ one.
3) The wealthy plutocrats fund large right wing think tanks (eg Heritage Foundation) which pump out propaganda and disinformation. The other function of these foundations is to discredit any one articulating ideas like the ones I am now: Key buzzwords here include: "class warfare", "extreme left wingers", "outmoded socialism" "socialized medicine" etc etc. All BS of course.
4) The Republicans hire character assassins such as Karl Rove and Ken Starr to remove moderate voices such as the Democrats.

Right wing lunatics like Santorum and co. now want to make this state of affairs permanent. Looks like they have a good shot to me....
/Unrant

Ahh that feels better :) :)

az
August 1st, 2005, 06:39 PM
But that is capitalism. This is the economic system under which humans tend to do best, for the moment.

Let's not make it personal or blame people for their successes. It is unfair to accuse every rich person of becaming wealthy at the expense of the less fortunate.


Whether it is true or not, that sort of thing violates the code of conduct in that is it disrespecful.


Thank you.

kleeman
August 1st, 2005, 07:45 PM
I think you have misunderstood the point here and certainly no disrespect was meant.

Capitalism and Plutocracy are quite different. In the former free markets dictate most transactions and monopolies are seen as an impediment to genuine competition. This is what BEOS believed was the prevailing system when it (foolishly as it turned out) took on M$.

Plutocracy is when a rather small group of individuals control the economy and such a situation is characterized by monopolies. This was the situation in the oil industry at the turn of the century and was ended when the true captialist Teddy Roosevelt introduced the Anti-trust laws to free up competition.

Personally I have some respect for captialism as the dynamism of markets can be very productive and also allow upward mobility. I have no respect for plutocracy.

Sorry I will stop talking politics now just had to clear that point up! :smile: :smile:

az
August 1st, 2005, 07:50 PM
By all means, lets continue with a healty discussion about politics. It is just very easy for a thread like this to go off the deep end.

kleeman
August 1st, 2005, 07:58 PM
Point taken.

joplass
August 2nd, 2005, 02:00 AM
/Rant
Yeah agger completely agree, It's called plutocracy and works as follows:

1) The large corporations (including M$) pay the running costs of the US political parties with a preference towards Republicans because they are more sympathetic
2) The congresspeople then pass "appropriate" legislation favouring the wealthy plutocrats.
2a) The Republican President shuts down "inconvenient" Justice Department anti trust cases such as the M$ one.
3) The wealthy plutocrats fund large right wing think tanks (eg Heritage Foundation) which pump out propaganda and disinformation. The other function of these foundations is to discredit any one articulating ideas like the ones I am now: Key buzzwords here include: "class warfare", "extreme left wingers", "outmoded socialism" "socialized medicine" etc etc. All BS of course.
4) The Republicans hire character assassins such as Karl Rove and Ken Starr to remove moderate voices such as the Democrats.

Right wing lunatics like Santorum and co. now want to make this state of affairs permanent. Looks like they have a good shot to me....
/Unrant

Ahh that feels better :) :)

Right on all counts. I could spend the whole day talking about those things that are about to make the once beautiful US a control-state by Republican. Today there is no difference between political life in sub-Saharan countries and the US.
I just don't know why is so difficult for Americans to see truths from lies. The Gestapo is back, here in the old USA.

Curlydave
August 2nd, 2005, 02:34 AM
Right on all counts. I could spend the whole day talking about those things that are about to make the once beautiful US a control-state by Republican. Today there is no difference between political life in sub-Saharan countries and the US.
I just don't know why is so difficult for Americans to see truths from lies. The Gestapo is back, here in the old USA.

You've got to be kidding, and you obviously have never been involved in politics. Do you know about anything going on in the Senate? Even with a comfortable majority, the Republicans can't get anything done and Bush can't get anything passed.

And as for the sub-Saharan comparison, that's not even funny.
And as for character assasination, guess who the two people are who are getting eaten alive right now politically? Rick Santorum and Karl Rove.

newbie2
August 22nd, 2005, 07:11 PM
http://img289.imageshack.us/img289/5967/circle4yv.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

...because of this picture ( and what it stands for )... i became a ubuntu fan ;-) ;-)
"Indeed, if there was any downside to the presentation, it was the fact that Ubuntu -- the Debian-based distribution founded by South African dot-com billionaire Mark Shuttleworth that's proven wildly popular since it launched in October 2004 -- had declined to participate. That led me to wonder: Are we witnessing the beginnings of a new Debian standards skirmish -- the DCC Alliance's formal standard versus Ubuntu's de facto one?"
http://www.linuxworld.com.au/index.php/id;565268958;fp;2;fpid;3

crispingatiesa
August 22nd, 2005, 07:34 PM
No. There is just no way that would ever happen. People try to twist the issue to make it sound like the US Government is the dog being wagged by the Microsoft-owned tail, but something like this is just shooting way beyond the mark.

As techies, sometimes we look at things from too much of a techno-specific standpoint.

I do recall that some years ago (close to 10 to 15 years now) there was this trade war (mostly trade sanctions to Brasilian produced software).

That killed the incipient Brasilian software industries and open a paved road for MS and Intel. The brasilians develop and alternative OS for their hardware.

(I think the war started because US argued some kind of unfair compettion from the Brasilians something similar to what is going on today with the softwood lumber and Canada)

BTW as a side note another war satrted about the same time with Brasil but this was about the jets market. This one ended without too much damage done though.

poofyhairguy
August 22nd, 2005, 07:54 PM
That led me to wonder: Are we witnessing the beginnings of a new Debian standards skirmish -- the DCC Alliance's formal standard versus Ubuntu's de facto one?

Skirmish is the wrong word. Competition does not have to be ugly.

az
August 22nd, 2005, 08:28 PM
"Indeed, if there was any downside to the presentation, it was the fact that Ubuntu -- the Debian-based distribution founded by South African dot-com billionaire Mark Shuttleworth that's proven wildly popular since it launched in October 2004 -- had declined to participate. That led me to wonder: Are we witnessing the beginnings of a new Debian standards skirmish -- the DCC Alliance's formal standard versus Ubuntu's de facto one?"
http://www.linuxworld.com.au/index.php/id;565268958;fp;2;fpid;3

A new debian standard? Far from it. The only thing the DCC can do is lobby Debian to change some policies. That is far from being accomplished.

To quote the article:

"It's impossible for developers to target all of the Debian-derived Linux distributions as a single platform. "

********. So long as the distribution can resolve the dependancies, the package will compile. In fact, it is the complete opposite. It is *easier* for a developer to target compatibility at the source level than to do ABI acrobatics and so forth.

And anyway, if Debian were to accept the DCC's requests, then Ubuntu would just go along with it. There would be no reason for them to go against it. If this is what is best for debian, so be it. No skirmish/competition/dissagreement here. I doubt that a majority of Debian developers feel this way, though.

So, I think Ubuntu just agrees with the majority of debian developers that binary compatibility is a waste of effort.

The DCC has very little to do with debian itself. It is not like they are the "core" of debian. They want a binary-compatible _core_.

Very misleading. They make it sound like they are "the core" and want to change the minority.

Knome_fan
August 22nd, 2005, 08:50 PM
The only thing the DCC can do is lobby Debian to change some policies.
Huh? They can change their own products to comply to the standard they set out, that's the idea behind it.



********. So long as the distribution can resolve the dependancies, the package will compile. In fact, it is the complete opposite. It is *easier* for a developer to target compatibility at the source level than to do ABI acrobatics and so forth.

No ******** at all and ABI compatability is no acrobatics at all. Currently developers and companies can't simply release packages and be sure that they run on all those debian derivatives involved in the DCC, in the future they will be able to do just that, at least that's the goal. And it does make sense if they want to compete against the likes of RedHat and Novell.



And anyway, if Debian were to accept the DCC's requests, then Ubuntu would just go along with it. There would be no reason for them to go against it. If this is what is best for debian, so be it. No skirmish/competition/dissagreement here. I doubt that a majority of Debian developers feel this way, though.

Huh? What request are you talking about?



So, I think Ubuntu just agrees with the majority of debian developers that binary compatibility is a waste of effort.

Ehm, this is about binary compatability between debian derivatives. This hasn't got a lot to do with debian proper, as a debian release is, believe it or not, binary compatible with itself.
Also I'm amazed that you know how the majority of the debian developers feel about this issue. Did you ask them all or was there a poll you could link to?



The DCC has very little to do with debian itself. It is not like they are the "core" of debian. They want a binary-compatible _core_.

See above. You are right though that it has very little to do with debian itself.

weasel fierce
August 23rd, 2005, 01:13 AM
Just listened to the interview, and it was quite enlightening. Mr Shuttleworth definately knows what he is doing, and believes in it

Buffalo Soldier
August 23rd, 2005, 01:28 AM
Ehm, this is about binary compatability between debian derivatives. This hasn't got a lot to do with debian proper, as a debian release is, believe it or not, binary compatible with itself.

Also I'm amazed that you know how the majority of the debian developers feel about this issue. Did you ask them all or was there a poll you could link to?

http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/?p=373


We're absolutely committed to working with Debian. I'm a Debian developer and an active one at that. :) Along those lines, I have organized a round table on derived distribution at Debconf next week. Ian Murdock's suggestions around binary compatibility may not be embraced. Ian seems to overlook the fact that with three different distributions, Debian is not even binary compatible with *itself.* We will pursue interoperability with Debian and with other distributions on the source level and we'll pursue on the binary level with LSB and similar initiatives. This accomplishes all of Murdock's goals — although not his exact prescription.

az
August 23rd, 2005, 03:22 AM
"They can change their own products to comply to the standard they set out, that's the idea behind it."

No, they want to change Debian proper.



"No ******** at all and ABI compatability is no acrobatics at all. Currently developers and companies can't simply release packages and be sure that they run on all those debian derivatives involved in the DCC"

And the developers should not have to. The bar is high enough to get things to work on the source level. To make it harder is effort that the vendors should worry about, not the developers.

Knome_fan
August 23rd, 2005, 08:03 AM
"They can change their own products to comply to the standard they set out, that's the idea behind it."

No, they want to change Debian proper.

They do?
Could you provide a link for that?



"No ******** at all and ABI compatability is no acrobatics at all. Currently developers and companies can't simply release packages and be sure that they run on all those debian derivatives involved in the DCC"

And the developers should not have to. The bar is high enough to get things to work on the source level. To make it harder is effort that the vendors should worry about, not the developers.
Huh? I fail to see your logic here. So the developers of those distributions involved shouldn't have to, though the distributions want to and think that it makes economic sense? Why?

@Buffalo Soldier:
Yes, sid and sarge are not binary compatible and yes Ian Murdock conveniently overlooked this when critisizing Ubuntu, however sarge is sarge.

az
August 23rd, 2005, 05:55 PM
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2005/06/msg01785.html

From: Matt Zimmerman

"The cost of guaranteeing ABI compatibility is high, and the benefit to free
software is marginal. It is a problem for proprietary software vendors to
be concerned with, and we should leave it to them. We have more important
work to do, and we're doing it in source code form."


http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2005/07/msg00275.html

"Debian is unique in its balance between caring principally about the
source yet providing trustworthy binaries; encouraging derivatives yet
producing its own, top-tier, supported releases; policing SONAMEs and
ABI compatibility yet discouraging ISVs from relying on exact bits.
To the extent that the "Debian Core Consortium" risks disrupting this
balance, it deserves at least as sharp (but not hostile) an inquiry
as, say, Ubuntu has received."

Knome_fan
August 23rd, 2005, 06:28 PM
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2005/06/msg01785.html

From: Matt Zimmerman

"The cost of guaranteeing ABI compatibility is high, and the benefit to free
software is marginal. It is a problem for proprietary software vendors to
be concerned with, and we should leave it to them. We have more important
work to do, and we're doing it in source code form."


http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2005/07/msg00275.html

"Debian is unique in its balance between caring principally about the
source yet providing trustworthy binaries; encouraging derivatives yet
producing its own, top-tier, supported releases; policing SONAMEs and
ABI compatibility yet discouraging ISVs from relying on exact bits.
To the extent that the "Debian Core Consortium" risks disrupting this
balance, it deserves at least as sharp (but not hostile) an inquiry
as, say, Ubuntu has received."
Nice quotes, but I fail to see how they answer my question or support what you wrote.

If anything the last mail shows that there is concern by some debian developers that the DCC might "disrupt the balance" and therefor deserves scrutiny, However, that's a far cry from your claim that "they want to change Debian proper", isn't it?

Seriously, I don't have any problem with Ubuntu not being part of the DDC. I think it is an interesting project, but I can see why Ubuntu might think it doesn't fit its goals and contrary to what some people seem to believe the DCC is just an other project, not something one has to join to belong to the good guys.

However, this doesn't warant spreading false information about the project, imho.

jobezone
August 23rd, 2005, 07:27 PM
All a bit mysterious and fascinating! Yes, indeed! A move which I never thought would happen (and that would take off with such sucess as it did) and which ramifications in the future, either in Debian, or in the entire distribution scene, are a complete mistery to me.

jobezone
August 23rd, 2005, 08:11 PM
I would say it's the most powerfull force, and the current state of the world shows that.

(edit:i was replying to money being a powerfull force in the world)

newbie2
September 9th, 2005, 06:04 PM
"When we chatted to Mark Shuttleworth about Breezy, he highlighted Launchpad, which he hopes will get the geekier members of the community involved in developing open source software.

“Launchpad has the infrastructure for collaboration on finding and fixing bugs, and for collaboration on translations. Launchpad is integrated with Breezy – you can click 'Help... translate this application' – and you're there,” Shuttleworth told Tectonic. Bounties offered for bug finding will also be offered through Launchpad."
http://www.tectonic.co.za/view.php?id=591

newbie2
September 9th, 2005, 06:18 PM
"TECHNOLOGY:
African Software Gains Global Popularity
Gary Wilson*

NEW YORK, Sep 9 (IPS) - A decade ago, Ubuntu was a word that shook apartheid South Africa. Today, it is a word that may be keeping Bill Gates awake at night.

Ubuntu is an African word that is one of the founding principles of the new South Africa, and it also is the name of a new computer operating system developed by South African Mark Shuttleworth and his company Canonical.

The word "Ubuntu is very difficult to render into a Western language," writes Archbishop Desmond Tutu in "No Future Without Forgiveness." It means "you are generous, you are hospitable, you are friendly and caring and compassionate. You share what you have."

Ubuntu Linux calls itself the "Linux for human beings". In less than six months from its introduction in October 2004, Ubuntu Linux became the most popular Linux desktop distribution in the United States.

In July, PC World magazine named Ubuntu Linux one of its "100 Best Products of 2005". And it has won numerous other awards. A special version was developed by Hewlett-Packard for its laptop computers that are sold in Europe, the Middle East and Africa.

Linux is a computer operating system, the software that makes a computer work. The operating system most commonly found on desktop computers in an office, at school or at home is Microsoft's Windows.

The second most common desktop operating system is Apple's MacOS, which at 4.5 percent of the market in the United States is a distant second. Linux is third at about 3.5 percent of the desktop computers.

That's not insignificant though -- it means that about one of every 28 computers in the United States is using Linux, and outside the U.S. the figure is much bigger.

Government agencies and local governments in Germany, Spain, Sweden Brazil and China have already changed from Windows to Linux. New Linux usage is picking up and its use on the desktop in the U.S. is expected to reach six percent in 2007.

Linux has been described as the most popularly used operating system that most users don't know that they use every day. Google.com's search engine is driven entirely on a giant Linux cluster. Amazon.com, eBay and a great many other Web sites are run on Linux systems.

But Linux has not been as popular on desktop systems. There are many reasons for this, starting with the fact that almost every computer comes with the operating system already installed and unless you make a special request, you won't get Linux on your computer.

Ubuntu Linux has been successful where others have failed, helping to take Linux into a significant segment of users much like that held by Apple's Macintosh.

Part of Ubuntu's success has to do with its design. To understand the significance of this, you have to unravel one of the mysteries of Linux.

Linux, unlike Windows or the MacOS, is software that is distributed under a Free Software Foundation license. The core of the operating system, called the kernel, is really the only part that of the system that is Linux. A Linux distribution takes that kernel and adds a great many additional software programs and utilities to make the whole system.

One common misunderstanding about Linux is to think that free software means that the work of developing it is being done for free. All the developers of the Linux operating system are being paid full-time wages. Most are employed by the giants of the computer industry like Hewlett-Packard and IBM. IBM alone has over 600 programmers working full-time on Linux development.

These corporations have chosen to be a part of the Linux development because some experts in the field of computer technology think that free, open source software can be more stable and secure than closed, proprietary systems. Linux has convinced many that this can be true.

Ubuntu Linux is built on one of the most stable and secure Linux distributions, adding an installer that is at least as easy to use as the Windows installer. The result has been described as "Grandpa's Linux" -- that is, it is the Linux you would put onto a computer for someone who needs an easy-to-use system.

Which leads to another reason Ubuntu Linux has been successful. It is a community-based distribution.

If you look underneath Ubuntu Linux, you'll find another name in Linux systems: Debian. Debian calls itself the "free software community" and its collection of Linux software emphasises stability and security.

Ubuntu Linux is actively part of that free software community. This has made it attractive to users in school systems, where having access to completely free software can make a difference.

At Yorktown High School in Arlington, Virginia, they are using Ubuntu Linux, says Jeff Elkner, a computer science teacher at the school. He says that one reason they've chosen Ubuntu is because it is based on the Debian distribution.

Debian is essential, Elkner says, because it is not subject to commercial pressure and therefore has long-term stability. In addition, "There is more free software packaged [for free download from the Internet] for Debian than for any other [Linux distribution], so Ubuntu users have access to all that software."

Elkner is one of the developers of Edubuntu, a Ubuntu distribution customised for use in schools. It is already being used at Yorktown High School and is expected to be released for general use in October.

At an Edubuntu Summit in July in Australia, educators from every continent came together. Reports from the summit indicate that Edubuntu will soon be found in hundreds of schools across Europe from Sweden to Spain -- in the state of Andalusia the government has chosen Ubuntu Linux for its schools, libraries and all public facilities. In Brazil, Elkner says, more than a million pupils will be using Edubuntu.

China, India and South Africa are also countries where Ubuntu Linux user communities have developed.

Finally, Ubuntu Linux is successful because it has strong financial backing.

In July, Mark Shuttleworth and Canonical set up the Ubuntu Foundation with 10 million dollars in financing. The money comes from Shuttleworth's deep pockets.

Shuttleworth came by his fortune by founding Thawte, a highly successful Internet security company that was an early seller of the digital certificates needed for online commerce. He sold the company for a reported 575 million dollars in 1999. After the sale, Shuttleworth spent 20 million dollars to be a space tourist on a Russian Soyuz rocket, spending eight days at the International Space Station orbiting Earth.

Back on land, he has put some of his fortune into developing Linux systems. His funding of the Ubuntu Foundation guarantees that Ubuntu Linux will have a stable future.

"The Ubuntu Foundation is a non-profit fund setup to ensure that a few core Ubuntu developers can be employed full-time for a few years, making good on commitments for long-term support for existing Ubuntu releases and also coordinating new Ubuntu releases," Shuttleworth told IPS in an email interview.

"So it allows people to be confident that Ubuntu won't go away, no matter what happens to me or to Canonical, the company behind Ubuntu."

*Gary Wilson is the author of "Samba Essentials for Windows Administrators" (Prentice Hall) and other computer-related books and articles. At the Columbia University Medical Center he directs a network of Windows, Mac OS, Linux and Sun OS computers in a research unit. (END/2005) "
http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=30205

poofyhairguy
September 9th, 2005, 08:26 PM
Good read, thanks.

newbie2
September 21st, 2005, 04:08 PM
First Look at Ubuntu 5.10 Preview

Conclusion :
"This is a space normally reserved for the best of the best and one that I'd previously thought Ubuntu was incapable of achieving but opinions can change. Mine has. I'm not head over heels for Ubuntu but I will say that it makes a killer desktop that is one of the better Debian systems I've used. It can give even Libranet a run for its money... and it's free. Two thumbs up to them for their effort. On that note, I think if they'd steer clear of the ridiculous names they adopt for each release, the corporate world might take them seriously enough to actually try it. Until then, good luck. "
OVERALL RATING
Target Audience: Everyone
Features: Excellent
Performance: Good
Hardware Support: Excellent
Usability: Good
Management: Excellent
Documentation/Support: Excellent
http://madpenguin.org/cms/?m=show&id=5145&page=1

kanem
September 25th, 2005, 06:53 AM
from another (now locked) thread:

"Ubuntu: derivative or fork?"
http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/43904/
I just read this article. At first it was really irritating. He brings up all of the points are have been hashed over in these forums. Probably in this thread. "Ubuntu is a parasite, doesn't give back, Mark should have just donated money to Debian, blah blah blah." But with a much more scathing attitude than earlier FUD fest articles on the subject.

Then I realized this is just a glorified post on a forum (http://www.libervis.com/). And for some reason lxer (http://lxer.com/) felt the need to point it out. In another post on the forum he talks about some sinister plot on Ubuntu's part to gain control over Debian. Whatever. I wish stuff like this wouldn't get passed off as an informed editorial by lxer.

kleeman
September 25th, 2005, 05:57 PM
Read the follow up lxer forum discussion, it is more informed ;-) See if you can guess who I am ;-)

bob_c_b
September 25th, 2005, 08:19 PM
I finally got a chance to watch this video, I think this should seriously put these issues to bed and I am more impressed with Mark and Ubuntu than ever.