Language Learning

[LeChuck]

Hello

I'm wondering what's the best way learning to speak a new language on your computer. Though I already speak/learn some languages, I never really used my computer as medium, neither software nor online, and always learned by books. This has several reasons, as price, method, incompletion, fee ... whatsoever, it's not really attractive to me. And when I think about buying a new language book, what happens yearly, I notice nothing really improved.

This seems strange to me, because I think computers can be very helpful in learning a new language, definitely more than books, but hasn't found its way to open source yet. With all the given potentialities of text, audio, video, software, internet, etc. this could be amazing to learn a new language.

So, if you're learning a language by computer, please tell me how you do it.

If there doesn't exist a proper method, ideally in the mind of open source, it's maybe a good idea to start a free multi-language learning project. Indeed there already exist something with Rosetta Stone (www.rosettastone.com) - it also runs under wine but is very expensive. As programmer, I sometimes consider to start (or join) a promissing open source project being up on this, but as being no expert in linguistics it also puts me off.

So, if there doesn't really exist something serious, and you also would like to learn a language with your computer, I'ld also like to chat about that. Simply write about how you would like to do, or any other ideas - maybe we'll get something started.

Well, I make a start about how I would like to learn a language:

By free and platform independent software, which is able to load a lesson.
Lessons contain everything you expect: dialog, grammar, vocabularies, games, etc. and should be expandable (by plugins?).
Simple lesson editing + version control. Would be great if it's possible to adopt lessons from a book.
Free lessons, respectively a complete course. Don't know if this is possible, but having something like lesson patterns, which are adoptable to any language, would make the free courses uniformly, and perhaps makes it easier to support a new language.
Sharing free lessons, e.g. via torrents. This is especially useful when lessons have audio, video, etc.
A community. Members can improve lessons, show slang, beautify resources, find pals, learn and practice in groups, get help from native speakers, etc.
Some final exams + certificate - of course nothing official
etc.


This is it so far, and is just a rough idea. However, I couldn't find anything similar. Should it exist, please let me know. Otherwise, I would be glad to get your feedback or interest.

thx for reading

--- edit ---

Meanwhile this has become an open source project called Uhura (http://code.google.com/p/uhura/), and I'll try to make a start by constructing the software. Nevertheless, the language course is a project on its own, and needs to be designed as well - that's something I impossibly can do myself, and need any help.

[ThinkBuntu]

Don't learn by computer or book unless you must, possibly due to a lack of speakers in your region. The absolute best way to learn a language is to learn the bare basics (which can be by book, or a very simple webpage) and just throw yourself into situtations in which you can speak the language. From then on, until you're advanced, the only book you'll need is a dictionary. The difference is very simple, and is obvious when you encounter people who have learned by speaking as opposed to learning in a classroom.

An example: I learned to speak Spanish fairly well simply because there are many hispanohablantes where I grew up. I took the required three years of the language in High School, from which I hardly benefited because the course matter was mind-numbingly simple. My girlfriend has taken six years of the language between High School and College, and still has a very poor handle on the language.

I think the clearest example is the difference between how she and I interpret Spanish. When I speak it, it's simply based on the patterns I've become used to in common speaking, and I have little care for the grammatical terminology. I say "creo que" because creo simply means creo. She has to interpret it, and often comes up with the word "pienso" which means, literally, "I think" as opposed to the intended "I believe."

Similarly, I would say "espero que vaya a Baltimore," because vaya sounds correct, while voy sounds wrong. I don't need to fish for "the subjunctive case" to get it right.

In other words, just go ahead and use it! Our school systems, at least in this region, are terrible at teaching language because, due to some slavish devotion to paper homework, 97% of the language is taught in written form. Learning a language in written form simply won't cut it if you need to jump in and use it effectively.

[matthew]

ThinkBuntu: +1

That is how I have learned Arabic.

Now, after agreeing with you completely, I will say that the Rosetta Stone software is by far the best I have seen at approximating that method. If you don't have access to native speakers locally, it is easily the second best way to learn a language that I have seen. If there were an open/free piece of software that worked in a similar fashion, I would be interested.

[roderikk]

I am also learning Italian right now. I have done a basic course and now I am talking a lot and also trying to write emails/iming... I completely agree that this is the only way to learn a language. I have had 6 years of French ánd German at high school and can hardly recall anything from that.

The only thing that would in my opinion be really useful is for example a firefox plugin that when I hover over an italian word I can see that english translation. That will save some trips to the dictionary.

[LeChuck]

I totally agree, methodology and the lack of speaking can be problematic with books, computers and schools. As you also say, learning by speaking isn't always possible for several reasons. Beside of that it lacks the ability of reading and writing, but it's a good point anyway that someone may don't care about that.

Nevertheless I think a well thought language course can be a good companion, for basics as well as for more advanced level, even if it's not a replacement for real life situations. In fact Rosetta Stone is the most interesting software so far. Composing something similar with Web 2.0 would be great. The internet is just perfect to communicate around the world in any fashion, so I really wonder why not using both technologies to learn a language.

There's effectively no appropriate free Linux software or online course as far as I know. That's why I think it would be nice to have something, even though it'll only cover the basics. I would definitely be pleased about a free language learning software + community. So I just ask if there is a demand, and what's would make a good implementation.

As side note, I think my high school English, French, and Spanish is still okay, and that's ten years ago :). In between I learned Italian and Russian on my own with books. Okay, I also improved by speaking, reading, writing, traveling, watching TV, listening music, etc. - it's multi dimensional - and after getting a good grasp the only books you need is the dictionary, and maybe a grammar too.

Okay, I'm invited on a birthday and have to stop writing now. I may complete later.

[ThinkBuntu]

To learn reading and writing, read newspapers and write your thoughts in the language. Send letters, emails, chats, etc. But if the language is phonetic, I really wouldn't expect reading and writing to be an issue, as long as you're literate.

[LeChuck]

Well, don't underestimate reading. Some time ago I started with Japanese, and guarantee you can't derive the ability to read and write. I don't question the power of speaking, and thanks to VoIP this could be integrated too. I also agree that a simple course isn't enough to master a new language, actually you can never stop learning, but I'm convinced that technology can make the way to master a lot easier. Especially if you're (locally) limited you need a second choice.

By the way, I found an interesting read about language learning at Wikibooks (http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/How_to_learn_a_language).

[LaRoza]

By free and platform independent software, which is able to load a lesson.
Lessons contain everything you expect: dialog, grammar, vocabularies, games, etc. and should be expandable (by plugins?).
Simple lesson editing + version control. Would be great if it's possible to adopt lessons from a book.
Free lessons, respectively a complete course. Don't know if this is possible, but having something like lesson patterns, which are adoptable to any language, would make the free courses uniformly, and perhaps makes it easier to support a new language.
Sharing free lessons, e.g. via torrents. This is especially useful when lessons have audio, video, etc.
A community. Members can improve lessons, show slang, beautify resources, find pals, learn and practice in groups, get help from native speakers, etc.
If you want to learn a language with your computer, with these features, try Python. It works in Windows and Linux, it is free, you can get free tutorials and books on it, (check my sig)

Also, C/C++ is very good, but will take longer to learn.

Of course, I do not know if this is the kind of language you are looking for.

[LeChuck]

It's not about programming languages, but spoken languages ;).

Beside of that, coding is no problem for me. The intrinsic problem is in the design and it's real benefit. Development environment is not a big issue until the basic problems are solved.

[maniacmusician]

I think the Linux/Open source community would be a perfect venue to create this kind of program in, simply because of our diverse community. We have native speakers from almost every language. Off the top of my head, I can immediately think of people I know that speak Arabic, Turkish (if that's what the language is), Afrikaans, Spanish, French, German, Greek, Hindi, Japanese, and more, but I think you get the idea. A lot of them are programmers as well as native speakers of those languages, so I think this would be an interesting project if someone decided to do it.

You have to tread carefully though, and make it very open and standards-compatible from the very beginning. Since a standard doesn't currently exist for this, you'd have to create a very complete one, which is a hard enough thing in itself.

Anyways, good idea. Are you going to attempt to create it or not?

[LeChuck]

As you see, the open source community fits perfect for this kind of project. If something similar exists I would probably participate anyhow, but designing from scratch on my own likely exceed my skills and time.

From my position I could create software, but anything about linguistic is another subject, and simply making a hard-wired copy of something existing (book, software, etc.) is not very wise. In fact I would be interested in working this out, but definitely need a hand figuring out features, requirement and problems to create an expedient base for further development.

Unless I have no solid concept I won't start - software development is too time consuming - but I/we can try to clarify the idea. If the design progresses to an advanced stage I bet there will be a serious attempt of an implementation, if not it's better to stop early. Also it wouldn't make sense if a similar project already exist, therefore some research is still necessary.

[ThinkBuntu]

Well, don't underestimate reading. Some time ago I started with Japanese, and guarantee you can't derive the ability to read and write. I don't question the power of speaking, and thanks to VoIP this could be integrated too. I also agree that a simple course isn't enough to master a new language, actually you can never stop learning, but I'm convinced that technology can make the way to master a lot easier. Especially if you're (locally) limited you need a second choice.

By the way, I found an interesting read about language learning at Wikibooks (http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/How_to_learn_a_language).
I made the assumption in my earlier post that the language is phonetic. Yes, if I speak English and want to learn Japanese, I'll need to learn Katakana and Hiragana in addition to the traditional characters. The traditional characters aren't phonetic, but if the language were pure Katakana or Hiragana, I could certainly write or read any word once I'd learned the alphabet.

Most languages are at least somewhat phonetic, and many are very close to being completely phonetic. Italian and Spanish, for example, are completely phonetic 99.99% of the time. Korean is pretty much phonetic, although there are those odd blocks with four characters instead of the usual 2-3.

[LeChuck]

I know, Japanese has almost unique catastrophic lettering, it was just an example. In fact you won't get far with Kana only if you intend to read and write too.

Anyway, focusing on phonetics in a good point. Even though computers might not be able to substitute a direct language exchange, a virtual experience would be an interesting second choice to my mind, at least to gain the basics.

[LeChuck]

Okay, I've done some work on this, and begun an open source project (http://code.google.com/p/uhura/) for the software client, which should also be able to support Rosetta Stone lessons.

I just finished to write the basic requirements (http://code.google.com/p/uhura/wiki/Requirements) so far. You would be a help by reading over them, and giving me some feedback and proposals, either here or by pm or mail. As this is the first phase it's easier to modify now than later. Otherwise I'ld start with the design soon, bur for now my weekend starts.

bye

[matthew]

That's exciting! I'll be watching your progress. I'm up to my ears in work right now, but if things slow down, I'll see if there's a way I can help out, too...I really wish I could promise more than that. I think this is a good idea!

[Peyton]

http://code.google.com/p/uhura/wiki/CodingStyle

Why don't you just follow the Microsoft naming guidelines?

[LeChuck]

Do you mean hungarian? Ugh, that's brain **** deluxe ... have spoken to some .NET coders. They told me hungarian syle is not anymore recommended by MS.

[Peyton]

No, Microsoft makes it clear that Hungarian notation is not to be used. Here are the guidelines:

http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/xzf533w0(VS.71).aspx

Of course, you're free to use whatever conventions you want, but since you're using C#, it makes sense to use the conventions that go along with it. That way, everything is consistent (since the framework libraries follow the Microsoft guidelines, obviously), and C# coders will find it easier to contribute.

I'm interested in seeing how your project turns out. You may be on to something good here.

[LeChuck]

So, I've spend every day some time, and almost finished the design phase. Though this is more a rough sketch (don't like to over-engineer 'cause I'm lazy too) this seems to me okay, and will start coding the next days if nothing appears too ambiguous. Therefore you'll be a help by checking the architecture (http://code.google.com/p/uhura/wiki/Architecture), construction decisions (http://code.google.com/p/uhura/wiki/ConstructionDecisions), and construction design (http://code.google.com/p/uhura/wiki/ConstructionDesign). If something appears strange, please mention that, because it's better to modify early.

[mimsmall]

Several responders have mentioned Rosetta Stone and WINE on a Ubuntu machine. Is someone actually using Rosetta Stone?

I would like some assurance before purchasing.

My grandchildren, home schoolers, are learning Spanish but on a Win machine. Two children, one does great, the other would rather do something else.

My reason for learning is to make myself more useful as a volunteer Guardian-Ad-Litem.

I have native speaking friends that will help me.

[LeChuck]

Rosetta Stone should run under WINE on Ubuntu without too big problems, but better check out at Wine HQ (http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?appId=1867).

[CAD-MAN]

I would love to learn Italian for when I go over to visit my family (I only have a very basic understanding of the language at present, and would like to improve). To be honest, I'm very surprised that the open-source community hasn't already come up with language learning software - It's great that you're thinking of making a start!

I'd love to help you out, but as I only speak English, and do not have coding skills that are up to scratch for such a venture, I do not see how I may be of service. Except if you need a beta tester! :) Give me a pm if/when you get to that stage!!!

My only experience with audio based learning methods is with an audiobook called 'Rapid Italian'. It repeats words and phrases in an almost hypnotic way that allows you to memorise the language quickly (hence Rapid Italian). The problem with Rapid Italian is that it is more for tourists, and doesn't really help me out with speaking with my relatives (i.e. normal conversation). I cant really complain though, I bought it for about £9 from http://www.audible.co.uk :)

Has anyone used Rosetta stone? I'm a bit weary about buying it - the reviews on Amazon (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rosetta-Stone-Italian-Level-Mac/dp/B000077DD4/ref=sr_1_4/203-8620954-3653521?ie=UTF8&s=software&qid=1187717003&sr=1-4) aren't exactly great, and it would cost me £209 (Just less than $400) to purchase levels 1 and 2.

[LeChuck]

Thanks for offering your help. Indeed I'm still working on this, and currently work on the software client. Somehow I also enjoy summertime, therefore the progressing is not too fast at the moment, but I'll keep working on this, 'cause I really like the idea of this project.

The difficult part will be to create the structure of the language course, and is actually a project on its own. This'll be something I probably can't do myself, and need help from around the world. Also the help from some linguist would be great; maybe some students could help out on this. But for now I would be happy to create a software client for RS courses, which can later be modified to our needs.

Well, I think RS is a good course for beginners and intermediate level, but I guess you won't be able to speak fluently Italian after finishing. Actually RS is nothing else than a common language course with a special methodology. If you don't need to use this methodology I'd rather go another way - £209 is huge amount of money - 'cause there probably exist other good Italian courses for much less money (or eventually at your local library).

What makes RS interesting is the fact, it doesn't use a tutor explaining anything in your native language. This would also be something I'd like to achieve with the course of this project.

[CAD-MAN]

Just dropping by to see how this project is going... :)

Regards

[machoo02]

Rosetta Stone should run under WINE on Ubuntu without too big problems, but better check out at Wine HQ (http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?appId=1867).Rosetta Stone works fairly well, but there is a problem with some languages that use different keymaps other than US due to the way that RS generates its display fonts on the fly. I tried using it for Russian, and it did not correctly display Cyrillic.

OTOH, I stumbled across Mango (http://www.trymango.com/) the other day, which is a free, Flash-based language program. They are just getting started, but it looks very promising.

[Iceni]

Rosetta Stone works fairly well, but there is a problem with some languages that use different keymaps other than US due to the way that RS generates its display fonts on the fly. I tried using it for Russian, and it did not correctly display Cyrillic.

OTOH, I stumbled across Mango (http://www.trymango.com/) the other day, which is a free, Flash-based language program. They are just getting started, but it looks very promising.

Ah, beat me to it:) I've been testing mango for a while now, and it's a nice way to learn. I combine it with manual writing (pen+paper) because I learn a lot faster that way.

[CAD-MAN]

Rosetta Stone works fairly well, but there is a problem with some languages that use different keymaps other than US due to the way that RS generates its display fonts on the fly. I tried using it for Russian, and it did not correctly display Cyrillic.

OTOH, I stumbled across Mango (http://www.trymango.com/) the other day, which is a free, Flash-based language program. They are just getting started, but it looks very promising.

Thank you very much for the heads up machoo02! I'll be sure to try this soon. :)

[LeChuck]

Just dropping by to see how this project is going...
Well, I created a simple client, but haven't written anything else then a plugin dummy for the lessons. I also analyzed the RS structure, how the course works, etc. and should create RS-plugins next. When this is done you should be able to use RS courses without their client. That's the plan.

I can't say how long this will take, because I can only work alongside on this project for several reasons (real life, making money, girls, another project, music making, summer, etc.), though my interest isn't lost. I really wish I could spend more time on this soon, but it's great to get feedback - I'll drop back into coding right now.

[berliita]

In my experience, the best way to learn a new language, once you've mastered the basics, is by watching lots and lots of movies and TV programs in the target language with subtitles in your native language. That's how i learned English. I know people, who are soap opera addicts, who learned Spanish simply by watching South American telenovellas, without ever taking a single Spanish lesson. Today there are sites where you can download movie subtitles in many languages.

There are two variations on this technique. 1) Listening comprehension: watch a movie in the target language with subtitles in your native language, 2) Reading comprehension: watch a movie in your native language with subtitles in the target language.

If your native language is relatively obscure, like my own, Hebrew, either variation or both might not be feasible or desired. But if you happen to know English or some other widely spoken language, you can use this language instead.

[LeChuck]

I improved my English and Spanish a lot by listening and singing to music. I simply google the lyrics of my favorite songs, and then translate them as good as possible. It's also fun talking to native speakers about music, lyrics, asking about unknown passages, getting some recommendation for good new music and their local music scene.

[Greg Shallard]

That Mango site is quite good.

[ryno519]

Well, I created a simple client, but haven't written anything else then a plugin dummy for the lessons. I also analyzed the RS structure, how the course works, etc. and should create RS-plugins next. When this is done you should be able to use RS courses without their client. That's the plan.

I can't say how long this will take, because I can only work alongside on this project for several reasons (real life, making money, girls, another project, music making, summer, etc.), though my interest isn't lost. I really wish I could spend more time on this soon, but it's great to get feedback - I'll drop back into coding right now.

When are you going to post the source code for those of us interested in contributing to the project?

[herbster]

I have the Pimsleur CDs, and started learning Spanish about 2 years ago. These are BRILLIANT. They take you through the language right from the very basics to being able to have meaningful conversations on varying subjects, it's not just prepping you for your 2-week visit to a country so you can ask where the nearest hotel is.

There's a man who says the word or sentence in english, then the spanish male and female repeat it and there are pauses in between for you to say them out loud. It's worked very well for me as I drive quite a bit and have them playing in the car. The method is just wonderful in its simplicity and insistence on not letting you forget, as words and phrases you learn many lessons prior are constantly brought up again to keep you sharp.

I know Pimsleur has programs for many, many languages.

[LeChuck]

When are you going to post the source code for those of us interested in contributing to the project?
In principal, I'll publish code when I think to have created a usable code base. To be more precise, I think the code still needs some debugging, removing obsolete code + comments, and some refactoring. Actually this is no big deal, and I may finish it the next days, but you should remind I'll do it in my spare time without deadline. As usual - it's done when it's done.

If somebody considers to offer help, it's a good idea contact first. There's a lot to do, especially with the creation of the plugins.

[RomeReactor]

You're onto something really nice here. I was going to offer some suggestions, but ThinkBuntu and matthew on the first page pretty much covered it, and then was going to add some more comments, but berliita in the previous page already said most of what I intended. Just to repeat some of their points:

I guess this depends on the language one wants to learn, but I think in most cases taking a course to learn the just the basics is not a bad start.
From there, nothing beats direct communication with a native speaker of the language you want to learn--or at least a fluent one--and watching TV and movies is a great aid since you can use subtitles to help you, and you have the benefit of a visual context (which in my opinion is of tremendous help when you're beginning the process).
Also listening to the radio is great for when you have somewhat of a handle on the language, and doing as much reading as you can improves the range of your vocabulary and is a very good way of learning new forms of expression not commonly found in casual conversation.

So you have a good thing going here, though I can only offer you my non-practical support. Keep up the good work!