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Sunforge
July 3rd, 2007, 08:48 PM
If you want to build and run an Ubuntu 7.04 based machine how cheaply could you build one?

The rules:
1. New components only.
2. Nothing off e-bay.
3. You don't have to be cutting edge
4. Ubuntu 7.04 has to run on the machine.

Does it even make sense to build one when the mighty Dell is but a web click away?

Why am I asking? Pure morbid curiosity.

Answers on a post card please.

igknighted
July 3rd, 2007, 08:54 PM
If you want to build and run an Ubuntu 7.04 based machine how cheaply could you build one?

The rules:
1. New components only.
2. Nothing off e-bay.
3. You don't have to be cutting edge
4. Ubuntu 7.04 has to run on the machine.

Does it even make sense to build one when the mighty Dell is but a web click away?

Why am I asking? Pure morbid curiosity.

Answers on a post card please.

Less than $100 easy for a desktop... a lappy might cost you a bit more. Don't waste your money on Dell unless you are buying a Dell linux box as a political statement.

EDIT: Err, that depends on how many components you need. I don't include monitor/keyboard/mouse in the cost because I just use mine from the previous box.

EDIT #2:
OK, I was off by a bit... I forgot to include non-core components :)
512 mb memory: 24.99: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820340006
mobo/case/psu: 72.99: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856101237
proc: 39.99: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819112206
cdrw/dvd drive: 22.99: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827131014

thats a fairly complete build for ~150, for under 200 you could have a dvd burner and a cheap nvidia gfx card as well

@trophy
July 3rd, 2007, 08:58 PM
I think what the OP is looking for here is most "bang for your buck", not lowest dollar amount. For example, a $300 machine that could play Tremulous at a decent FPS would be better than a $100 machine that has no 3D acceleration.

prizrak
July 3rd, 2007, 09:04 PM
200-300 is very possible for a desktop.

Sunforge
July 3rd, 2007, 09:07 PM
Curiously I have a pretty quick machine in front of me. I was idly wondering whether someone has costed (or even costed and built) a workable general purpose machine that would be a decent jack of all trades machine and general Linux test box.

There are a lot of distros out there and it's been a long time since I built a PC.

igknighted
July 3rd, 2007, 09:14 PM
I think what the OP is looking for here is most "bang for your buck", not lowest dollar amount. For example, a $300 machine that could play Tremulous at a decent FPS would be better than a $100 machine that has no 3D acceleration.

Could go either way... I guess the former is very subjective as to what is the "most bang for your buck", while lowest dollar amount is easily quantifiable. I recently built a core2quad system and called it great bang for my buck, but also my cheap $200 sempron build could be considered the same. Oh well, i don't forsee myself building any more computers soon :).

AusIV4
July 3rd, 2007, 09:17 PM
I have about $500 in my desktop, though I'm not sure you could find all the parts today.

I bought a package deal from tiger direct and got the mother board, Celeron D processor, case, power supply and 256 MB RAM for $69 (after rebate, which took some work). I bought a 512 MB stick of ram for $30, two TV tuners (Plextor ConvertX TV402-U at $170, secondary tuner for recording 2 shows at once for $29).

That adds up to about $300. The remaining $200 went into hard drives. I have 600 GB worth of disks making up a 400 GB raid.

Not top of the line by any means, but I wanted it for MythTV / file storage, and it works quite nicely.

Calash
July 3rd, 2007, 09:22 PM
Thats funny...I was looking at the same Barebones system from Newegg when I first read this post. Don't like that it is AGP only, but for the price it is good. You do need to include a hard drive...unless you are gonna boot it off of the live CD all the time ;)

Almost thinking of getting it now for the kid...load Ubuntu and get them off of the main PC....good price for a browsing system.

Warpnow
July 3rd, 2007, 09:25 PM
CPU/MB $35.99 http://www.surpluscomputers.com/store/main.aspx?p=ItemDetail&item=MBB10555
Case/PSU $25.00 http://www.cmicomputer.com/cgi/quikstore.cgi?store=&search=yes&detail=yes&product=cs807b&category=case&keywords=&hits_seen=&page=search.html&and=&affiliate_id=
RAM-256 $20.00 http://www.starmicro.net/detail.aspx?ID=388
CD-Drive $00.99 http://www.surpluscomputers.com/store/main.aspx?p=ItemDetail&item=DRV10425
Vid Card $04.99 http://www.surpluscomputers.com/store/main.aspx?p=ItemDetail&item=CRD10801
HD-4GB $12.00 https://www.serversupply.com/products/part_search/query.asp?q=94G7098&pw=Y
KB/Mouse $07.99 http://www.surpluscomputers.com/store/main.aspx?p=ItemDetail&item=ACC11093



Pentium 4 1.5ghz w/256 mb of RAM Add another $20 to get 512 for better peformance. In a nice case with a 500w power supply. Have a cheap 4.5 gb HD in it. Prolly wanna uprade according to budget. I'd reccomend one of the 250gb HDs at newegg for $50, but wanted the cheapest possible result for this. No monitor included because its not woth shipping a CRT and LCDs are not cheap.


Total: $106.96

Drop the Keyboard/Mouse and its under $100. I don't know the BARE cpu requirements of Ubuntu, but if someone tells me what it can run on I bet I can drop the price consideribly.

Sunforge
July 3rd, 2007, 09:35 PM
I'm picking my jaw off the floor as I write this (I live in the UK).

$106 for a desktop? You're kidding me.

A tank of petrol, given the exchange rate, costs about as much as the PC you just spec'ced out.

lapsey
July 3rd, 2007, 09:44 PM
I can grab a 400Mhz 512Mb minipc for about 30 quid. More than enough for IceWM or what have you.

Warpnow
July 3rd, 2007, 09:45 PM
Here's my "bang for your buck" pc if that's what the original poster meant:


CPU/MB $99.99 http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3202688&CatId=31
Case/PSU $25.00 http://www.cmicomputer.com/cgi/quikstore.cgi?store=&search=yes&detail=yes&product=cs807b&category=case&keywords=&hits_seen=&page=search.html&and=&affiliate_id=
RAM-1gig $39.99 http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1071038&sku=ULT31690
DVD+-RW $29.99 http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3110653&sku=O451-1000
Vid Card $38.99 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814241045
HD-250gb $69.97 http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2143105&CatId=134
KB/Mouse $07.99 http://www.surpluscomputers.com/store/main.aspx?p=ItemDetail&item=ACC11093


Total: $311.92

Sempron 3400+, 1 Gigabyte of RAM, Same Case as My Last one (I like it), DVD burner, Decent Video Card, 250 gb SEAGATE HD, Keyboard and Mouse

Damn fine workstation PC. I mean plenty of ram...a nice, big, seagate HD, a vid card that can play most games...the case looks cool...what else could you need? All for right over $300.

Warpnow
July 3rd, 2007, 09:53 PM
Will ubuntu run on 300mhz? If so...

http://www.surpluscomputers.com/store/main.aspx?p=ItemDetail&item=MBB10556

$6 mb/cpu ;)

Lord Illidan
July 3rd, 2007, 09:56 PM
If you can manage, try and find a mobo that supports both old and new tech. My mobo supports AGP 8x and PCI-16x, IDE and SATA, DDR1 and DDR2..thus very easy to upgrade with it.

Lord Illidan
July 3rd, 2007, 09:57 PM
Will ubuntu run on 300mhz? If so...

http://www.surpluscomputers.com/store/main.aspx?p=ItemDetail&item=MBB10556

$6 mb/cpu ;)

300 Mhz..that's a bit low...lowest I've tried was 333 mhz, and with breezy. not too fast, but not that slow either.

starcraft.man
July 3rd, 2007, 10:11 PM
If you want to build and run an Ubuntu 7.04 based machine how cheaply could you build one?

The rules:
1. New components only.
2. Nothing off e-bay.
3. You don't have to be cutting edge
4. Ubuntu 7.04 has to run on the machine.

Does it even make sense to build one when the mighty Dell is but a web click away?

Why am I asking? Pure morbid curiosity.

Answers on a post card please.

I don't see the point of the replies here. IMO you don't buy a computer based on getting the cheapest deal, you start with a budget (i.e. not spending over 2000$) and then you pick the parts most important to you. If you game thats your graphics card, if you render/transcode thats your CPU, if you store huge amounts of data thats your HDD. You fill out whats important first and work down to what is least in the order of importance making sure every part works with the previous.

The big 4 IMO are Mobo, CPU, graphics card and RAM (in that order), HDD space and audio card are less important, easily fixed later and not related really to overall performance (though a good raptor 10k or more drive can help on the desktop, not feasible on labtop). You have to pick the right everything to get a good combination of performance and money. It isn't simply picking parts, its making sure they work in conjunction well, its like an ecosystem, each part depends on the other and the limiting factor is the weakest link.

Now, if your asking me for an overall workstation (i.e. my definition is one that can game well at average settings, run at least one VM well, render/transcode at decent speeds, store a decent amount of media, anything you want to do basically) you can get it for 2k or less today.

Sorry I'm a bit of a curmudgeon, I've built computers and its not just about paying most or least, I've seen plenty pay too much or too little (underpowered) for systems.

xl_cheese
July 3rd, 2007, 10:17 PM
Here's a peppy system for just over 300. Included keyboard, mouse, and dvd burner.

Dimension C521
(System Identifier: EW75PY12)


Dimension C521 Desktop: AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual-Core 3800+ (2.0 GHz)
Genuine Windows Vista Home Basic

System Price : $319.00

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Operating System
Genuine Windows Vista Home Basic
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Memory
1 GB DDR2 SDRAM 533MHz (2 DIMMs)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hard Disk Drive
250 GB EIDE SATA II Hard Drive (7200 RPM)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Modem
V.90/56K PCI DataFax Modem
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Certified Refurbished
Certified Refurbished
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Base
Dimension C521 Desktop: AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual-Core 3800+ (2.0 GHz)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Media Bay
16X DVD +/- RW w/dbl layer write capability
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Software Upgrade
Microsoft Works 8.5
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hardware Upgrade
USB Keyboard
USB 2 Button Mouse

Tundro Walker
July 3rd, 2007, 10:23 PM
A tank of petrol, given the exchange rate, costs about as much as the PC you just spec'ced out.

Ironically, the way gas prices are going here in the US, a tank of petrol here almost costs that much too (well, for a really large vehicle).

I guess maybe it's because I was always going with top-of-the-line stuff in the past, but I've never been able to get away with building something for less than $1000. Of course, last time I built something was in 2000. I just bought my roommates "old" comp for $500 after he built a newer one to handle the graphics on some of the Windows games he plays. I'm not sure who got ripped in the deal, but as old as his comp is, I kinda think I did (2.6ghz, Nvidia card, 512 RAM, Sound Blaster Audigy card...he kept his hard drive, and monitor, and mouse, and keyboard...like I said, I think I got ripped off, but, I needed a comp really bad that I knew worked and wasn't built with cheap parts.)

Warpnow
July 3rd, 2007, 10:23 PM
Pretty good deal.

edit: Responding to the system 2 posts up...

edit #2: And many posts up, not me, I *do* build my pcs for whatever is cheap ;)

I built my current pc right at $400 w/LCD +KB/Mouse 2-3 years ago. 17" LCD, P4 3.0ghz 2gb ram, radeon 9200se, wintv card, 80gb hd (since added another 160).

Sunforge
July 3rd, 2007, 10:27 PM
In response Starcraft man I already have a machine that's got what I'd want on the performance front. I was, out of idle curiosity looking to see how inventive people could be. There's been a fair amount of invention so far.

The thing that I'd never considered is that the price of low(er) spec machines is low enough to make me think about getting a second machine, just to tinker with.

Tundro Walker
July 3rd, 2007, 10:40 PM
I don't see the point of the replies here. IMO you don't buy a computer based on getting the cheapest deal, you start with a budget...

I agree with StarCraft.Man, but I'm kinda thinking the OP is testing the waters for potential money-making schemes here. Probably wants to know how cheaply he can get away with building a comp that barely runs Ubuntu, then sell those comps to suckers like his grandma, or the jock kid next door who would only use it for IM and surfing the net.

Had a friend like this, and it really annoyed me. He built another friend's computer (mistake number one, never do business with friends). He used a lot of cheap-*** parts, only cost him like $500 (b/c he wasn't that good at shopping in the first place), but marked it up 300% and charged his friend $1500 for it all. What did he get for $1500?

Well, thing was practically obsolete by the time it was built. It could barely run the new games the guy wanted to play on it. It was such a heat-hog, it had to practically be layered in fans on the inside (had twelve little cheapo fans). The motherboard pooped out after 4 months of use. The RAM, transplanted into another machine pooped out after another week's use. The gfx card still works, but it's such a cheap POS that nobody wanted to scavenge it off the comp when it died (still have it sitting on my desk in front of me). The monitor was an old toad that the guy had sitting around and pawned off on him "free of charge", and it blipped out after 6 months of use. The "friend" thought he knew more about comps then he did, and loaded on Windows 98, but didn't tweak it, so it ran like a toad and crashed every few hours (until I got a hold of it and tweaked it, but even then it was on its last legs). Eventually, when the thing died, my room-mate built our friend a new, reliable computer, for the whopping sum of $800, and he's been using it ever since. Needless to say, we don't speak to that other "friend" any more (for that reason, and a few more).

They guy later went on to try to scam a few more folks like that, thinking he was starting his own business like this (IE: based on being a cheap-skate swindler). One of his "customers" realized what he'd done, and threatened legal action. End result was he had to build a REAL computer for the potential suer, which ate up all the profit and then he had made up to then, and decided that the "risks" involved with a "business" were just not worth it. What a moron.

Warpnow
July 4th, 2007, 01:23 AM
Wtf? Don't charge your friends. That's not very ubuntuish...

I've done work on most of my friend's pcs for free before.

Warpnow
July 4th, 2007, 01:27 AM
I've actually considered building cheap desktops before, but I'd sell them cheap. At one point was seeing if I could build a system for $75 and sell for $100. I figured out that using some refurbed RAM and p2 cpus I could do it, and run puppy linux with SD cards instead of HDs. I thought it was a neat concept. I was going to put 2 media card readers on it and let them have one for data and the other for the OS. However, I eventually came to my senses and realized no one would buy it :D

Sunforge
July 4th, 2007, 08:45 AM
[quote=Tundro Walker;2957823]I agree with StarCraft.Man, but I'm kinda thinking the OP is testing the waters for potential money-making schemes here. [SNIP]

Tundo - you have an interestingly suspicious take on my original post.
Starcraft man has an interesting point too.

I'm in complete agreement with both of you. It's not worth building the cheapest machine that you can get. On the other hand as an academic exercise it's worth it just to prove how cheap computers have become in real terms.

10 years ago, in the UK anyway, you couldn't get machines costing less than $300. I have to admit that I was staggered that one poster could cost out a machine for less than it cost to fill up my car. Whether it could run Feisty effectively is another question for another post.

Motoxrdude
July 4th, 2007, 09:10 AM
This is a build for a decent desktop computer that will run ubuntu beautifully.

CPU: AMD X2 3600+ - $59 (http://secure.newegg.com/NewVersion/Shopping/ShoppingItem.asp?ItemList=N82E16819103036)

Motherboard - $49 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130542)

Fancy Computer Case with Plexy Glass Window -$25 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130542)

1 GB DDR2 533 - $38 (http://secure.newegg.com/NewVersion/Shopping/ShoppingItem.asp?ItemList=N82E16820161638)

nVidia 7300GT 256MB 128bit GDDR2 PCI-Ex16 - $61 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130025)

250GB Samsung 250GB 7200RPM 8MB Cache Sata 3GB/s - $63 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822152025)

CDROM Drive - $13 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827106065)

Total - $309.95
Including tax (CA 7.25%) and shipping - $344.02

wh00t.

Motoxrdude
July 4th, 2007, 09:13 AM
Here's my "bang for your buck" pc if that's what the original poster meant:


CPU/MB $99.99 http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3202688&CatId=31
Case/PSU $25.00 http://www.cmicomputer.com/cgi/quikstore.cgi?store=&search=yes&detail=yes&product=cs807b&category=case&keywords=&hits_seen=&page=search.html&and=&affiliate_id=
RAM-1gig $39.99 http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1071038&sku=ULT31690
DVD+-RW $29.99 http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3110653&sku=O451-1000
Vid Card $38.99 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814241045
HD-250gb $69.97 http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=2143105&CatId=134
KB/Mouse $07.99 http://www.surpluscomputers.com/store/main.aspx?p=ItemDetail&item=ACC11093


Total: $311.92

Sempron 3400+, 1 Gigabyte of RAM, Same Case as My Last one (I like it), DVD burner, Decent Video Card, 250 gb SEAGATE HD, Keyboard and Mouse

Damn fine workstation PC. I mean plenty of ram...a nice, big, seagate HD, a vid card that can play most games...the case looks cool...what else could you need? All for right over $300.
That video is complete crap imo. Why spend $40 on a video card that is practically integrated? 128mb 64bit memory is going to really hold you back; that and it's an ati card. Spend $20 more and get a 7300GT or 7600GS.

jclmusic
July 4th, 2007, 11:22 AM
i built the computer i'm using now for about 50 :) not top of the range, but runs feisty fine.

here's my specs:
cheap intel motherboard (cost me 8 from a cash converters)
celeron processor
2 sticks of 128mb RAM
DVD-ROM drive
CD-RW drive
generic ethernet card
crappy graphics card (not capable of running beryl but doesn't bother me)
one 20GB hard drive
one 40GB hard drive

Sunforge
July 4th, 2007, 11:38 AM
50?

I think I should have made my original post read something like this:

"Has anyone built a computer that costs less than a curry and a couple of pints down your local on a Friday night".

Warpnow
July 4th, 2007, 03:37 PM
Whether it could run Feisty effectively is another question for another post.

The one I posted for $106 could easily run Feisty. There ARE problems with it being so cheap. Mainly the PSU is crap, the low ram will mean you can't run too many things at once, but the processor is more than enough for Feisty. Won't be able to run beryl or anything, but the current Feisty release will run fine on it.

Warpnow
July 4th, 2007, 03:40 PM
Do you really spend $100 on gas?

Seriously?

I fill up my 16 gallon tank at around $40 usually...

Sunforge
July 4th, 2007, 05:00 PM
Warpnow - yes with the exchange rate being what it is, the UK is expesnive if you paying in dollars.

Warpnow
July 4th, 2007, 05:07 PM
Outrageous.

illu45
July 4th, 2007, 05:59 PM
i built the computer i'm using now for about 50 :) not top of the range, but runs feisty fine.

here's my specs:
cheap intel motherboard (cost me 8 from a cash converters)
celeron processor
2 sticks of 128mb RAM
DVD-ROM drive
CD-RW drive
generic ethernet card
crappy graphics card (not capable of running beryl but doesn't bother me)
one 20GB hard drive
one 40GB hard drive

Wow, that's quite impressive, although the 256 MB of RAM probably isn't all that great. What DE do you use?

If you're looking for cheap PCs, I think the easiest way to get one here would be to look around garage sales and the like, you could easily get a P2 (or even a P3) for $100-$150 or so, or just buy off different parts from different people.

Motoxrdude
July 4th, 2007, 10:26 PM
Do you really spend $100 on gas?

Seriously?

I fill up my 16 gallon tank at around $40 usually...

My jeep has a 16 gallon tank and costs the same as you to fill up, $40. I have a chevy silverado and that thing costs close to $80 to fill up, but gets 25mpg while my jeep gets around 14mpg.

I never realised, i could by a computer once a month with my gas money :rolleyes:

Warpnow
July 5th, 2007, 01:18 AM
My jeep has a 16 gallon tank and costs the same as you to fill up, $40. I have a chevy silverado and that thing costs close to $80 to fill up, but gets 25mpg while my jeep gets around 14mpg.

I never realised, i could by a computer once a month with my gas money :rolleyes:

Haha, I drive an Jeep Wrangler, makes sense we'd have the same size tank :-p


And whoever said p2-p3 at $100-$150, check craigslist...they go closer to $30-$60 on there.

regomodo
July 7th, 2007, 06:18 PM
My jeep has a 16 gallon tank and costs the same as you to fill up, $40. I have a chevy silverado and that thing costs close to $80 to fill up, but gets 25mpg while my jeep gets around 14mpg.

I never realised, i could by a computer once a month with my gas money :rolleyes:

holy crap! that'll cost about $120 for the jeep in the uk

jclmusic
July 8th, 2007, 09:08 AM
Wow, that's quite impressive, although the 256 MB of RAM probably isn't all that great. What DE do you use? .

enlightened gnome. normal gnome with metacity works fine too tho, as does xfce. kde is slower.

Paqman
July 20th, 2007, 05:12 PM
I'm picking my jaw off the floor as I write this (I live in the UK).

$106 for a desktop? You're kidding me.

A tank of petrol, given the exchange rate, costs about as much as the PC you just spec'ced out.

I've just quickly checked out a similar spec machine to what he posted, but from a UK source. Could probably have searched harder and got better deals, but bought purely from Dabs it would cost 113.02. I wasn't able to get down to the same spec with some components. It's pretty hard to find a HDD below 40GB, for example. Personally I think that if you bumped the RAM up to 512MB you'd have a perfectly good machine for surfing, email, etc.

Celeron 1.6GHz = 27.53 (http://www.dabs.com/ProductView.aspx?Quicklinx=4L1B&CategorySelectedId=11147&PageMode=1&NavigationKey=11147,405140000&InMerch=1#specifications)
Asrock Mobo with onboard graphics = 27 (http://www.dabs.com/ProductView.aspx?Quicklinx=44RW&CategorySelectedId=11143&PageMode=1&NavigationKey=11143,42190000,405070000,11&InMerch=1)
256MB Ram = 11.23 (http://www.dabs.com/productview.aspx?Quicklinx=2ND6&CategorySelectedId=11150&PageMode=1&NavigationKey=11150,4294960191,4294960195)
DVD Drive = 9.48 (http://www.dabs.com/productview.aspx?Quicklinx=4LDB&CategorySelectedId=11155&PageMode=1&NavigationKey=11155)
Case/PSU = 18.60 (http://www.dabs.com/productview.aspx?Quicklinx=3PQP&CategorySelectedId=11145&PageMode=1&NavigationKey=11145,11,41800000)
80 GB Hard Drive = 24.78 (http://www.dabs.com/productview.aspx?Quicklinx=4JCB&CategorySelectedId=11154&PageMode=1&NavigationKey=11154,11)
Keyboard (http://www.dabs.com/productview.aspx?Quicklinx=4M7F&CategorySelectedId=11117&NavigationKey=11117 ) & Mouse = 3.88 (http://www.dabs.com/productview.aspx?Quicklinx=3H4X&CategorySelectedId=11117&NavigationKey=11117)

buuu2
August 30th, 2007, 06:36 PM
i can beat everyone's cost. if you check out www.freecycle.org you can find a community in your neighborhood where people give away tons of stuff. computers, monitors, keyboards, speakers, etc are always posted. i have gotten lots of components this way. currently i have a dell dimension L500c from the dump/transfer station where they have a "swapshop." people leave computers there all the time too. i recently got a compaq desktop from the freecycle site on which i loaded ubuntu 7.04 but i am not running it now. the dimension works great and i only need one system for now.