[SOLVED] Dell and the Windows refund policy [Canada] a step forwards!

[octopuskevin]

Huge EDIT!:

Taken from the Direct2Dell site: (http://direct2dell.com/one2one/archive/2008/02/21/46926.aspx)

Dell Ubuntu Systems Launching in Canada and Latin America
Thu. Feb. 21, 2008

Several new developments on the Linux front today.

We're introducing Ubuntu 7.10-based Dell systems in Canada and Latin America. Beyond that, we're introducing the Inspiron 1525n to customers in the United States. Like Daniel mentioned earlier this week, the 1525n is already available to customers in the U.K., Spain, France and Germany. All of these systems will include built-in DVD playback capability.

Lots of customers like Jimmy and Simon have asked for Ubuntu support in Canada. Now Dell Canada customers can order the Inspiron 1525n, XPS M1330n and the Inspiron 530 desktop. More information is here: http://www.dell.ca/open

In Latin America, initially we will offer the Inspiron 1525n and the Inspiron 530n desktop to customers in Argentina, Chile, Colombia, Mexico and Puerto Rico. Right now, customers can order systems via phone by clicking on that country and clicking the Sales Support, then Call Sales. Systems will be availble online to Latin American customers in the coming weeks. See this post in DellenDirecto for more details.

Update, February 22:These Ubuntu systems are available across Latin America, not just the countries I listed above.

Anyways, I'm considering this thread SOLVED! (http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=4405352&postcount=45)


Well I have been, for the last month or so, getting on Dell's nerves trying to find out that wonderful question of how to apply for a Windows OEM refund, as this is one of the only factors I need to know before I buy my laptop. Every time I called customer service, I heard the same story of how it is a free gift, or that they do not refund it, etc...

well we shouldn't be believing that should we?

Anyways after going through Dell Canada's terms and conditions of sale, I found out that it does indeed state that operating systems can be refunded...

essentially the Dell Canada terms and conditions state the following:

Dell's policies and process section 7:
"...Customer agrees that it will be bound by the license agreement once the package is opened or its seal is broken. Dell does not warrant any software under this Agreement. Warranties, if any, for the software are contained in the license agreement that governs its purchase and use."

Total Satisfaction Return Policy:
"...You may return software for a refund or credit only if the sealed package containing the floppy disk(s) or CD(s) is unopened. For customers who want to return, for refund or credit only, either application or operating system software that has been installed by Dell, the whole system must be returned, along with any media and documentation that may have been included in the original shipment."

Dell's software license agreement:
"...By opening or breaking the seal on the Software packet(s), installing or downloading the Software, or using the Software that has been preloaded or is embedded in your product, you agree to be bound by the terms of this agreement. If you do not agree to these terms, promptly return all Software items (disks, written materials, and packaging) and delete any preloaded or embedded Software."


On June 28th, I got a response back from Dell customer service...Here is the response:


"Dear Kevin,

Thank you for contacting Dell Customer Care.

We do offer a refund for the return of the Operating System. The procedure is as follows: Upon receipt of the system do not turn it on. If you have turned on the system and agreed to the first popup screen then we can no longer return the software. Call Customer Care without turning on the system and advise that you want to return the Operating System. Customer Care will contact our Head Office, who will send a letter of destruction to you to sign and send back. You will have to send back the sticker that has the product key on it as well, and delete the software, which our Technical Support department can help you with. The credit per license comes to $25 dollars as it is an OEM product.

If you have any further questions please let me know."


Now while I argue that $25 for the license is kinda low, as I am sure that it varies depending on the version of windows that came installed, the more important part is that Dell has finally acknowledged that it can, and does do operating system refunds.

As far as other software such as Microsoft System Works, I presume that the procedure will be exactly the same.

While these terms and conditions were taken directly from Dell Canada, they may not apply to citizens of other countries. It is best advised to check out the terms and conditions and find out if these refund policies are applicable.

I'll post back if I receive any further information regarding the Windows refund procedure, and the process that I had to take when I buy my laptop in August. Essentially the goal here is to find a method that can be streamlined and used by others without having to waste hours of their day.

- Kevin

[juxtaposed]

Good job finding all this out :)

I thought OEM windows was 10$, so 25$ is pretty good.

[octopuskevin]

well here is the latest of the email's that I have received back from Dell... unfortunately this is from June 28th, so I may have to start the email process all over again.

It would be great if people would be able to start doing this with their own locale Dell, and post the results in this thread, or make a new one called something like "viva la Windows refund! DELL" :D


Dear Kevin,

Thank you for contacting Dell Customer Care.

I am not able to answer all of your questions at this time, as the policies are not clearly set out here as well. I have communicated this to my manager and the questions have been sent up the line to find out exactly what the answers are.

I do have some answers for you. With regard to your first question, it is Customer Care that you have to call. My manager is working on getting a process email sent to the entire department so that you won't run into the issue of an agent not being aware of the policy. My manager is just making sure of the terminology with our head office before sending out that email.

Regarding your second question, the price of the refund does not differ. With OEM pricing we have been charged a set amount for the license regardless of the version of the operating system, and therefore while upgrading the operating system results in an increased overall cost to the customer, the pricing on the license is the same.

At this time the only return process I and my manager are aware of is for Operating Systems and no other pre-installed software. This is one of the things that we are asking our head office to clarify. I'm sorry I cannot provide a more extensive answer at this time.

Refunds are processed back in the same manner an order is paid for, i.e. a credit card purchased would be refunded to a credit card, a pre-paid cheque order refunded by a cheque, and so on.

Should you choose not to use Windows our technicians will still try to troubleshoot, however if they feel that the issue caused is software related they will ask you to restore the system to the way it was sent out.

I'm sorry I can't further clarify these answers at this time, once my manager hears back from our head office I will be in contact to advise you of their answers.

[~LoKe]

One of the excerpts you posted..

"...You may return software for a refund or credit only if the sealed package containing the floppy disk(s) or CD(s) is unopened. For customers who want to return, for refund or credit only, either application or operating system software that has been installed by Dell, the whole system must be returned, along with any media and documentation that may have been included in the original shipment."
It specifically says you have to return the entire system if you want to return any installed software.

[octopuskevin]

yes that seems like a plausible aspect that Dell could hypothetically utilize if they wished to discourage windows refunds..., although what I was told by the representative that:
Customer Care will contact our Head Office, who will send a letter of destruction to you to sign and send back. You will have to send back the sticker that has the product key on it as well, and delete the software seems to be of a more realistic nature.

I think that this could be an easily avoidable problem even if one has to go to lengths to photograph them refusing the EULA agreement, and formating the drive, however If it does reach the point of a large number of requests for refunds, Dell could simply tell customers to pay for shipping.., [in which case easily exceeding the costs of the OEM]

[odin1965]

Make any progress yet?. I contacted Dell customer care here in Canada today to return the Vista Home Premium that came with my 1520. The rep said she had never had anyone attempt to return the operating system before, so she had to check with her supervisor.
After about 5 or 10min. she came back and told me that they used to allow returns with XP, but that, with Vista, they had a new contract with Microsoft that didn't allow them to return the OS. Pretty canny of MS. So no returns on Vista, PERIOD, according to her.
I told her I would keep checking and be calling again if I actually had any additional info. I told her about the info I have read here and she said that if I had received an actual hard copy letter saying that the OS was returnable that they would honor it, but not otherwise.

[octopuskevin]

Hmm,

I really don't like how they are following their procedures. While Dell explicitly states that refunds on operating systems will be honoured, they are refusing to do so.

If under the circumstances Microsoft has indeed placed a 'no refund' on OEM systems, I am quite certain that borders on monopoly violations. Rather, what they have told Dell is that under no circumstances should you have to offer a refund, thus implying that they will continue to discourage you from returning the product.


I will PM you the information on the person I have been in contact with, as a second voice will not hurt. I recommend calling this number: 1 (800) 847-4096, and advise them that you rejected the EULA agreement [which I do hope you did], and based on Microsoft and Dell policies, this product must be returned. If they refuse, you can easily tell them that their policies are misleading and wrong, that that the better business bureau will be contacted immediately regarding this matter...

In all reality, there may be indeed nothing that can be done right now short of going to small claims court to further pursue the matter if Dell is continuing to be uncooperative.

Best of luck, and write back if anything changes.

- Kevin

[vwbeamer]

I'll give you 25 bucks for the system disc and key.

[octopuskevin]

I'll give you 25 bucks for the system disc and key.

sorry I haven't bought the computer yet, and the issue is not about trying to get rid of it, but more of consumer rights. What I need is Dell to state that they will offer me [and anyone else that asks] a refund on their OS.

On another note, since I'm being led in circle here by the Dell staff, I have had to forward everything to BBB. hopefully they will be of greater assistance in forcing a resolution.

[octopuskevin]

anyways here is the latest of what is going on with Dell....

I blasted off an email to them, advising that I will be in contact with the BBB and other organizations. Unfortunatly, Dell has been far too slow to deal with this issue, and I certainly am not waiting much longer.

here is the email.



To the staff at ca_canadacs@dell.com, and the customer service
individual, Matthew, whom I have been in contact with.

While I have appreciated quick responses regarding my initial question
in regards to how to acquire a refund on Windows OEM copies preloaded on
Dell computers, as well as what seems to be genuine efforts to alleviate
this problem, I feel that the issue has gone unaddressed for too long.

I would however like assistance in acquiring information that will
direct me to higher authorities, as progress has been slow, and recent
experience with customer service phone supervisors have resulted in
hostility towards this issue. For example a supervisor I spoke with this
afternoon by the name of Lisa refused to tell me her customer service
number and stated that she refuses to answer any further question of
mine before promptly hanging up the phone. As while I do believe that
there are individuals who are committed towards fulfilling their
obligations of assisting customers, there unfortunately seems to be a
predominant amount which undermine the success of the few.

I would like to be placed in correspondence with an individual at Dell's
head office at 155 Gordon Baker Road who is well knowledge and versed in
finding solutions for my issue. I would also appreciate Matthew, your
customer service number to prove that 1. I have indeed been talking with
a Dell representative, thus validating all prior communications, and 2.
to ensure that your superb quality of work does not go unnoticed.

I will be forwarding all information regarding these email transactions
to CA_Escalations_(_executive)@dell.com which I have found on the Better
Business Bureau Mid-Western Ontario website, and promptly posting
complaints on http://www.bbbmwo.ca/ and http://www.bbb.org/ regarding
Dell Canada's inability to uphold the standards and practices outlined
in Dell's purchase agreements and the Microsoft EULA agreement. Further
actions may be taken to expose this issue via online posts and local
media sources if deemed necessary.

While it is unfortunate that this matter must reach a plateau where
outside parties become aware of corporate behaviour, I believe that it
is dually required in order to uphold consumers choices and rights.

I look forward to your response,


Kevin

While I received this as the response only shortly after, it certainly does not answer all of my questions:


Dear Kevin,

Thank you for contacting Dell Customer Care.

I apologize that I have been unable to get the answers you want in a timely manner. I am still waiting to hear back from our head office. I have copied your email to my manager. My Dell RepID is 118125. If I hear back I will let you know as soon as I do.

Matt
Dell Customer Care
ca_canadacs@dell.com
Phone: (800) 847-4096


I must emphasis that my Dell correspondent Matthew, has been absolutely fantastic at responding to emails promptly. While not knowledgeable on this topic, he has been polite and fast in his responses, a trait which I hope more customer service reps would have. I will continue to post any advancements once [and if] I receive a response from the executive escalating department, as well as any contact with the BBB. I really hope this can be solved, but at the same time they, and I know there will be a point when I will just stop caring.

[g2g591]

[QUOTE=odin1965;3090798]
After about 5 or 10min. she came back and told me that they used to allow returns with XP, but that, with Vista, they had a new contract with Microsoft that didn't allow them to return the OS. Pretty canny of MS. So no returns on Vista, PERIOD, according to her.
/QUOTE] Wow, sure seems like Microsoft is very determined to monopolize the entire computer industry. How evil :mad:

[cawill]

Thats good but $25 seems a bit low. In the UK my friend got £62.50 on a refund for XP Media centre edition.

Also see: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6144782.stm

[smoker]

Also see: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6144782.stm

that seems to be cut and dried, at least in the uk. perhaps anyone seeking a refund in the uk should paste that link in to their refund application!

[vwbeamer]

I know, i was just joking anyway, but you could sell them on ebay for more then 25 bucks. if it was just about money.

I understand it's more then that for some.



sorry I haven't bought the computer yet, and the issue is not about trying to get rid of it, but more of consumer rights. What I need is Dell to state that they will offer me [and anyone else that asks] a refund on their OS.

On another note, since I'm being led in circle here by the Dell staff, I have had to forward everything to BBB. hopefully they will be of greater assistance in forcing a resolution.

[jiminycricket]

I would complain to the Competition Bureau of Canada (http://www.competitionbureau.gc.ca/internet/index.cfm?itemID=19&lg=e). Include all documents, communications, etc where Dell has said MS does not let them, and therefore, you get a rightful refund on goods you don't want but are forced to purchase to get a computer.

File complaint: http://www.competitionbureau.gc.ca/internet/index.cfm?itemID=130&lg=e


File a complaint by phone or by fax

You might prefer to contact the Information Centre by phone or by facsimile.

Monday - Friday, 8:30 a.m. to 4:30 p.m., Eastern Time.
Toll-free: 1 800 348-5358
TDD (for hearing impaired): 1 800 642-3844
Fax: (819) 997-0324
File a complaint by mail

If you chose to mail your complaint, the address is:

Competition Bureau
50 Victoria Street
Gatineau, Quebec
K1A 0C9

Online complaint form: http://www.competitionbureau.gc.ca/internet/index.cfm?itemID=1260&lg=e

They say they don't take refund issues, but you're dealing with a monopoly here. MS especially as a monopoly must be held to high standards. In addition, this is a bundling/tying issue that competition agencies must look at.

[cawill]

perhaps anyone seeking a refund in the uk should paste that link in to their refund application!

Yeah, thats what my friend did after dell at first turned down the refund, after pasting the link in an email they gave him the refund.

[octopuskevin]

I would complain to the Competition Bureau of Canada (http://www.competitionbureau.gc.ca/internet/index.cfm?itemID=19&lg=e). Include all documents, communications, etc where Dell has said MS does not let them, and therefore, you get a rightful refund on goods you don't want but are forced to purchase to get a computer.

awesome I think that will really help! Plus I just so happen to be in Ottawa, so Gatineau is only a short skip over the river.


I know, i was just joking anyway, but you could sell them on ebay for more then 25 bucks. if it was just about money.

I understand it's more then that for some.

lol no prob, actually the sad fact about selling OEM copies of Windows is that you can't. VIsta EULA states that OEM's are locked onto that computer [by definition of major components such as motherboard etc... i'll find the link for it later]
So essentially this is a move to ensure that people will not transfer their OEM's from one computer to a next whenever they buy a new one, thus ensuring that the money train just keeps rolling.

While I do think that companies need ways to protect their projects, products etc from theft, there must also be limits to how far this can go. Back in the day when you used to buy something, you owned rights to it... now a days you don't! [think DRM, most software and even hardware goods have restrictions on you using it for any other purpose then the intended one] While Microsoft in this case wants to minimize piracy by ensuring that every computer sold has at least a legitimate copy 'paid for', there must be alternative ways to minimize theft without trending on individual rights.

I have read a lot of literature, post etc on this matter with normally the classic opposition that I have heard coming as 1. alternatives do exist and 2. not everything in life can have choices.

For the first in regards to Dell, most people cite the N-series, and Ubuntu line, with IBM's its their elite line of linux computers etc... however I don't feel that consumers actually have an equal choice. Whether constrained due to geographical reasons such as the current sales of Dell Ubuntu systems, or because one must purchase a 'business grade' computer to have it 'linuxable' [often at a substantial price compared to mainstream computers], consumers who want alternatives are left with little or nothing. Sure, I could buy a system76, but what if I really want that awesome HP tablet? how about a 12" Dell? I don't care if you don't support linux for it, WE will find a way. Poll the masses who use open source system, and find out how many use linux ready hardware... most don't. However, we make it work, and in the process of doing so, show companies that what they say is impossible, is in fact possible.

The second argument I heard from someone who related this issue to cars [although I don't think they thought the whole problem out]. Let's assume that you don't like Michelin tires, and that all Honda's come with Michelin tires. Well, while you may want that awesome civic because you want to add a 4 foot spoiler to it, and it does come with tires you don't like, consumer freedom in car purchases allows you to sell those new tires if you don't want them. If that doesn't appeal to you, there are many other large name, mainstream car manufacturers out there that will appeal to your needs. So while yes, you may be unable to receive a 'refund' for what you don't want / use, you do possess rights to sell / do what you wish with them. However if all car manufacturers used Michelin tires, and they required a license in order to rotate more then 30 times, and restricted the sale of the tires to anyone else unless you paid full retail price for them... well we would have a problem that maybe more would care about.

Hence, I suppose the rational for why I am spending far too much time on this is because we have as a society slowly let our rights disappear. On the plus side, if this issue continues to germinate for a while, I will compile it all into a case study of how economic and political rights in the modern era have dissolved, and submit it for one of my papers! :D

Thanks everyone for your replies, it's good to know that there is indeed interest not just in this project, but in the general concept!

- Kevin

[clarknova]

Update please! This is a hot topic around the world and I'm aware of no Canadian precedent for somebody getting a refund on MS OEM software.

Slashdot recently ran a story (http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/10/27/1952257) of an Italian court forcing HP to refund Windows, Works, and legal costs to a consumer.

My brother-in-law is looking for a laptop and System76 is his only real option right now. I'll be looking for one myself in the next couple of years and I assure the world I will not be paying for crap software with it. I guess there's always MacBook.

Thanks for starting and maintaining this important thread. Please let us know how this plays out.

db

[Mud.Knee.Havoc]

This is an incredibly interesting thread... I'd also like to ask for an update! :D This could be a really important first step in making it easier for everybody to get their refunds.

[LaRoza]

It would make more sense if computer sales went this way:

* What hardware do you want?
* What software do you want?

[octopuskevin]

looks like some people dugg this post back up so I guess I'll say that the conclusion to this epic tale was that Dell was unwilling to offer a refund of any sorts.

It's unfortunate I know, but after talking to the public relations head, multiple supervisors and managers, being escalated to higher voices, [each of which resulting in them hanging up on me, calling me some offensive kind of name, or repeating almost mechanically the same phrase over and over] it seems that at the current time Dell Canada is unwilling to abide by the EULA agreement or as they state: "Dell Canada does not offer Ubuntu. We currently do not offer Ubuntu or any other open source solution. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause. Check out the Dell Community forums for additional information."

I became absolutely sick of having to deal with Dell, and ended up getting myself an Acer 6291 12" which serves me very very well [minus the phoenix bios bit]. Everything works nice, looks better, cheaper and while I never argued or tried to argue with Acer for an XP return, I suppose it's for the better.

Perhaps if I had more available time to dedicate to following up on this issue and harassing Dell a compromise may have been reached for me, but this would not have been a change of policy and thus would only benefit me and not all Canadians. Plus I've had more pressing issues pertaining to my schooling such as the copyright issues in Canada and the CDMCA bit.

I apologize for never finishing up this thread, but encourage anyone that is peeved about the current situation to contact their Dell rep and let them know people are not happy.

Best of luck,

- Kevin

[Lostincyberspace]

They need to be taken to court for false advertising.

[suziequzie]

It would make more sense if computer sales went this way:

* What hardware do you want?
* What software do you want?

I would be a very happer shopper indeed if that was the way it worked.

I usually go to small, independent retailers and just buy the basics that I want: Buy an "upgrade box" with a mobo and cpu and case, then fill in the rest myself. It'd be nice to be able to shop for a computer a la carte and NOT have to do the hardware installs myself. I can do it, but I always seem to cut myself on the edge of a case, or drop the screwdriver on my foot (I'm a klutz).

[gn2]

I would be a very happer shopper indeed if that was the way it worked.

If you're in the UK, shop at Novatech, their laptops are available with choice of Windows version or with no OS: http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/nbranges.html

[octopuskevin]

I would be a very happer shopper indeed if that was the way it worked.

I usually go to small, independent retailers and just buy the basics that I want: Buy an "upgrade box" with a mobo and cpu and case, then fill in the rest myself. It'd be nice to be able to shop for a computer a la carte and NOT have to do the hardware installs myself. I can do it, but I always seem to cut myself on the edge of a case, or drop the screwdriver on my foot (I'm a klutz).

Agreed, if your getting a desktop there are far more options available in terms of hardware and if the system comes with an OS or not. As such all custom boxes allow the flexibility to choose.

However for the quickly growing laptop market, choices are very limited. I know you can get what I believe is called a whitebox from asus, but they are expensive but do allow a custom laptop. There are also companies like system76, but if you have a problem you do need to ship it to the U.S. for repairs.

Unfortunately for Canadians we are behind the curve on most tech things. Electronics in Canada still do not reflect the current dollar, phone providers are limited, few, expensive for everything including data, and internet companies operate in a similar way. I wouldn't expect any Canadian computer company to get there stuff together and begin selling open-source option laptops in the near future besides for asus due to their eeepc.

If anyone ever does have success in Canada, regardless of company they deal with, post it here.

[Seizhin]

Good day,

A friend of mine has been telling me about Linux and the Ubuntu community, and eventually, he led me to this topic.

I've rad, and discussed this thread with him, and I was left wondering.


To summarize your story :

- Dell had this software refund policy, so you decided to exploit it and wanted a refund for Windows Vista. Which Dell then offered $25 for it. You refused and probably wanted more, thus Dell had been in the repetitive circle of 'refusing' to refund the software.

I was confused of your intention.

What did you hope to achieve from this thead? Or by bugging Dell without buying their Laptop?


You could have just bought Dell's laptop, and 'sue' Dell for not refunding Vista even after announcing that their software products are refundable, similar to what the man in BBC link in the previous page did.
Yet you did not.


I would appreciate if the author or anyone else could give me an answer of what the author's intention was for going through all the trouble to post the thread.


Thanks in advance.

[octopuskevin]

Seizhin, I'll try my best:



- Dell had this software refund policy, so you decided to exploit it and wanted a refund for Windows Vista. Which Dell then offered $25 for it. You refused and probably wanted more, thus Dell had been in the repetitive circle of 'refusing' to refund the software.

First: yes and no. The issue was that I was told by a sales rep that one gets a $25 return on windows vista and nothing for system works. I asked why so low compared to other people that got refunds I was told by his supervisors and later other high executives of Dell that he had misinformed me and that Dell does not offer any refund for any pre-installed products. Thus, his $25 claim was false.

Second: Afterwards Dell contacted me and said they would grant me a return of the OS [for again only $25] as so long as I shipped the computer at my own expense back to their warehouse for it to be removed. As shipping would have cost about as much as the return this was clearly not an option.




What did you hope to achieve from this thead? Or by bugging Dell without buying their Laptop?

I hoped to bring attention to how within Canada computer companies are resistant towards accommodating non-windows users. I don't consider what I was doing 'bugging'. I was simply doing my research and homework prior to purchase. I hope that someone up in Dell's exec along with other major companies saw this thread, and began to consider how they would appease a potentially growing consumer base and that perhaps their current policies will make more enemies than friends.



You could have just bought Dell's laptop, and 'sue' Dell for not refunding Vista even after announcing that their software products are refundable, similar to what the man in BBC link in the previous page did. Yet you did not.

Sure and I could sue the cops that spoke in a derogatorily fashion to me, go after my cellphone provider for being intentionally vague in their policies on phone use that does not 'disrupt normal traffic', and go after every corporation where their minimum wage employee's are hostile towards me. The truth is that 'suing' is not as easy task as it is to make a bowl of cereal in the morning. We are talking about months of work, thousands of dollars and a case that both you and your lawyer think have a chance of passing a preliminary hearing. Hey, listen if you got time to go around and sue people go nuts, but I want to finish my political science degree and head to law school... not sue companies before I got myself a 'name'. It also seems that suing in the US is as common as whoopers, but up here in Canada people don't go around suing the pants off each other like our friends to the south do. :D

Anyways I hope this clears things up and fills in the 'gaps' in the events. Any further questions, just ask or PM me.

- Kevin

[Seizhin]

I appreciate your answer.
Thank you for your reply. :)

[ssam]

has anyone ever heard of getting a refund on Mac OS X out of apple?

[hyper_ch]

Well, one just has to read the licence terms:

Get all licences from here:
http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal/useterms/default.aspx


WinXP Pro SP2
http://download.microsoft.com/documents/useterms/Windows%20XP%20SP2_Professional_English_29e61d64-43e3-4ca3-b201-fe0c62507034.pdf


YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS EULA BY INSTALLING, COPYING, OR OTHERWISE USING THE SOFTWARE. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT INSTALL, COPY, OR USE THE SOFTWARE; YOU MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND, IF APPLICABLE.


Win Vista Business
http://download.microsoft.com/documents/useterms/Windows%20Vista_Business_English_e59f6893-6b14-4262-964c-993ed16d138a.pdf


By using the software, you accept these terms. If you do not accept them, do not
use the software. Instead, return it to the retailer for a refund or credit. If you
cannot obtain a refund there, contact Microsoft or the Microsoft affiliate serving your country for information about Microsoft’s refund policies. See www.microsoft.com/worldwide. In the United States and Canada, call (800) MICROSOFT or see www.microsoft.com/info/nareturns.htm.

[Mud.Knee.Havoc]

has anyone ever heard of getting a refund on Mac OS X out of apple?

Until Dell starts making their own operating system to go with their hardware, I'd say that would be comparing apples (no pun intended - or is it???) to oranges. :)

[Mr. Picklesworth]

I do not see how this is in Microsoft's best interest. Literally every computer manufacturer and retailer I have checked with is blatantly ignoring and counteracting Microsoft's EULA. I have talked to computer department managers at London Drugs, among other stores, who seem to miss these big bold letters at the very top of the license agreement. There is a startling majority who do not know that this is the case, and who actually try to convince me that it is not the case for their products.

If Microsoft does not defend their end of the EULA in which they protect the rights of the customer, then I see no reason why the customer should need to follow the end they agreed to either. Unless Microsoft give these businesses a stern talking to, I think we should consider their license agreements void.

[hyper_ch]

99.9% of people who buy a computer think windows is delievered free as a bonus. They don't realise they pay for it (and also other software installed) and they will not read the terms.

Of course retailers will not be fond of returning fees for it. They would have to publicate what THEY actually "pay" for installing that software and I tend to think this is way below a boxed windows version.

Fact is, you are sold the package in a bundle and by selling that bundle the retailers accept the M$ EULA and they must refund you. There was a case in France a little while ago where a guy bought an Acer notebook for 599.-. Acer offered him to refund € 30.- for the unwanted software as he intended to install Linux.

He went to court and because there was no transparency of how much the retailers pay for the software, the court just took normal boxed shelf price and he was refunded € 311.85 plus an additional fee of € 500.- "abusive resistance and committed expenses".
http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2007/09/26/acer_laptop_microsoft_windows_french_ruling/
http://soufron.typhon.net/spip.php?article178

[octopuskevin]

has anyone ever heard of getting a refund on Mac OS X out of apple?

I'm not aware of the Apple license agreements, but I would find it hard to believe that Apple offers this as they make both the hardware and the software. If Microsoft sold their own computers rather than their software sold upon other made computers the EULA clause would not exist.


Literally every computer manufacturer and retailer I have checked with is blatantly ignoring and counteracting Microsoft's EULA.... If Microsoft does not defend their end of the EULA in which they protect the rights of the customer, then I see no reason why the customer should need to follow the end they agreed to either.

Your right, as the issue remains, in the greater majority of cases the EULA agreement does little to protect users as manufacturers choose how to apply it. The EULA does also state explicitly [XP] that OEM's are given more flexibility in how they choose to apply the legal framework.

The major issue is not that Microsoft does not offer refunds for their products that is pre-installed on computers, but as Hyper_ch pointed out, the OEM's that distribute Microsoft products are claiming that it to be free, and thus leaving discretion of a refund up to the computer manufacturers.

[Nessa]

This is sad. :(

[bufsabre666]

now if only they would sell the computers without operating systems, or give more choices wed be set

[clarknova]

Well, one just has to read the licence terms:
www.microsoft.com/info/noreturns.htm

There. Fixed that for you.

But seriously, from the EULA you quoted:

YOU MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND, IF APPLICABLE. (emphasis mine)

Isn't this "if applicable" clause like saying "you can get a refund, or whatever the heck we feel like telling you instead of giving you a refund"?

and

If you cannot obtain a refund there, contact Microsoft or the Microsoft affiliate serving your country for information about Microsoft’s refund policies.

Or in other words, if you cannot get a refund from your retailer, contact us, and we'll tell you (or not) that we don't give refunds either, and your retailer has been bullied into carrying our ridiculous and illegal policy of the same.

I'm not a lawyer, and naturally I didn't waste my time reading the links, so the above translation is merely my estimate, based on all my previous experience dealing with monopolistic doubletalk.

Seriously, the best thing for us in the long term would be a grassroots movement of every new computer buyer taking OEMs and MS to court over this crap. The more bad press the better, and I don't think your typical retailer would pay out 800+ Euros on a cheap laptop too many times before amending their ludicrous policy.

Realistically though, most of us aren't lawyers and don't have the time to stand up in court defending our own rights on such an issue. At least not while we have the alternative of buying a laptop with no OS. The more we support the likes of system76 and Novatech, the more these companies will thrive.

I have never purchased a new copy of Windows, retail or bundled, and I never will. If the day should come (and it never will) that I have no option to buy a laptop but with Windows on it, then on that day I will take MS to court, ubuntuforums.org as my witness, and the Canadian's non-litigious reputation be damned.

db

[hyper_ch]

Isn't this "if applicable" clause like saying "you can get a refund, or whatever the heck we feel like telling you instead of giving you a refund"?
No it's not... if you fulfill the prerequisites as written down in the licence you will get a return. For that you need to read the whole.



I'm not a lawyer, and naturally I didn't waste my time reading the links

Nothing more to add then ;)

[az]

/snip/
Please be advised that the pre-installed Windows Vista Basic OEM
version comes free with Dell system purchase. There will be no credit value
for returning the OS. Please keep the Windows Vista Basic OS.
/snip/


I just ordered a Dell. I asked about returning Windows Vista:

Original Message Follows:
------------------------

**** CUSTOMER SERVICE FORM ****

First Name: Andrew
Last Name: Zajac
E-mail: ****

Service Tag:
Order or Invoice Number: ****

Request Type: <$request_type$>

Brief explanation: Hello. I just ordered an Inspiron 531 which comes
with Windows Vista.

I will not be using Windows or any other of the pre-installed software
on that system. I will be using Ubuntu Linux, and therefore will be
erasing the preinstalled OS.

Once I receive my system, may I send back the Windows installation
discs as well as the Windows license sticker and get a refund for it?

Thanks

Andrew Zajac
Customer number ****


Their answer:

Dear Andrew Zajac,

Thank you for contacting Dell Customer Care.

Please be advised that the pre-installed Windows Vista Basic OEM
version comes free with Dell system purchase. There will be no credit value
for returning the OS. Please keep the Windows Vista Basic OS.

Andrew, your case reference number regarding this issue is ****.

Should you have any other questions please do not hesitate to contact
us
at www.dell.ca. Please choose Support & Customer Care.

How are we doing? If you would like to provide feedback or feel you
have an unresolved issue please feel free to contact our Case Manager,
at Ca_OI_CustomerCare@Dell.com. We appreciate your comments.

Please be advised you may receive an email survey from Dell directly
related to the service I have provided you today. I thank you in advance
for taking the time to submit the survey, as your feedback is very
important to us.

Regards,

Jay K.
Dell Customer Care
ca_canadacs@dell.com
Phone: (800) 847-4096

[hyper_ch]

read the licence that comes with it... I bet it says you get a refund.

[octopuskevin]

@ hyper_ch

when applying an " if applicable" clause within a legal document, there is much that can be contested regarding what needs to be satisfied in order to be applicable. In a utopian dream land, yes.. I bet if you fulfill the prerequisites you would not have to worry about this condition, however in harsh reality, since neither you nor the salesperson is aware of all the conditions prior to your purchase, it is quite easy for them to claim numerous things such as as requirement to notify Dell in writing upon purchase, a submission of a corporate form that waives liability from Dell... etc..

I bet you get the point here in that while the agreement allows the flexibility for customers to exercise their rights, the application of these rights relies really upon the companies discretion.

@az
sorry to hear that Dell Canada [along with most manufacturers] still hasn't changed their dirty ways. Your best bet if you want to pursue it is to write a letter to the media and consumer relations head... google around that's where I found the name before. You can also hit up the BBB or pursue the news to put something interesting in about it... with the Canadian DMCA issue being pretty popular right now with citizens worried about not being able to use their rights, this issue might just float with them.

Best of Luck,

- Kevin

[az]

I won't do anything, except Use Entire Disk.

Dell says that the preinstalled Windows OS is worth nothing. How can I argue with that?

To be honest, I can see their point of view; I'm certain they make no profit from preinstalling a windows OS per se.

[hyper_ch]

@ hyper_ch

when applying an " if applicable" clause within a legal document, there is much that can be contested regarding what needs to be satisfied in order to be applicable. In a utopian dream land, yes.. I bet if you fulfill the prerequisites you would not have to worry about this condition, however in harsh reality, since neither you nor the salesperson is aware of all the conditions prior to your purchase, it is quite easy for them to claim numerous things such as as requirement to notify Dell in writing upon purchase, a submission of a corporate form that waives liability from Dell... etc..

I bet you get the point here in that while the agreement allows the flexibility for customers to exercise their rights, the application of these rights relies really upon the companies discretion.


trust me, I know legal documents ;)

[octopuskevin]

trust me, I know legal documents ;)

Hey listen I'm not challenging your intelligence or anything, but considering I've tried running the hoops here in Canada with Dell and since I did start this thread, I am speaking regarding experience.

While yes, your correct in that if you follow all conditions needed you will usually be able to satisfy the requirements, this 'if applicable' statement however leaves the onus of responsibility on the OEM, who themselves may not allow the rights of refund.

When I had contacted Dell I was originally told by the salesperson that I would be offered $25 for it. However once I asked some more questions regarding this process, I was alerted by his superiors that Dell will not offer it.

Here in Canada, our legal rights are becoming very much like the Americans. Consumer rights have never been a major aspect of Canadian politics and economic trade. Often our political system is soft to corporate desires: simply look at what is happening with net neutrality, the tax levy on blank media to offset piracy and the proposals to brings the DMCA to Canada and you will see what I mean. Thus, while I am not claiming that recovering your costs of Windows is impossible, our legal system is not nearly as compassionate towards consumer rights as the European Union has been. These 'if applicable' 'fair usage' or 'disruption of service' are common terms when dealing with the tech sector here, whether be it your internet or cellphone plan, the computer you buy, or the rights you think you deserve.

If you wish to change this, let people know, challenge the system and perhaps one day we will get these rights. However while we wish to deny it, corporate policies are often hard ones to fight as they cost a significant amount to initiate and follow through with, and often are unsuccessful as companies arrange their policies in such a way that loopholes always exist to legitimize their actions.

Let's not turn this thread into a war of simply 'this is how it is' or 'I know best' as it is not beneficial to anyone. Rather I've love to see people post the steps to how they got their refund, how much it was, and what advise they can give to others if they hope to achieve the same. Heck, even post the failed attempts you've had, because in the end, it shows that this issue is important and consumer DO care.

[octopuskevin]

Wow is all I can say.

Who would have thought that Dell Canada would introduce Ubuntu and open-source solutions, especially after the experience I and others had on exercising our consumer rights.

However despite my poor previous experience with Dell, I believe everyone, individual or company, should have the rights to redeem themselves. As such, I applaud them for this excellent move, and for recognizing the wishes of consumers.

To all those that worked on getting Canadian computer manufacturers to support linux solutions, whether be on ubuntuforums, Dell's ideastorm, or the multitude of forums and threads, you have all proved case-in-point, the effectiveness of determination. While Asus with the EEEPC has set precedence that consumers do want choice, it is nice to see a major system providing jumping on board. Perhaps this can begin the process of opening hardware manufacturers up to open technologies.

While Dell's track record may not be excusable, I do congratulate them on this move forwards and I look forward to seeing how quickly Dell's employees, and Canadian consumers respond to the ability to choose.

Kudo's Dell, I believe this topic can now finally be closed!

Regards,

Kevin

p.s. http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=4401694 may be a better place to discuss Dell Canada's recent move, as I feel this thread has done its job effectively.

[Flying caveman]

I won't do anything, except Use Entire Disk.

Dell says that the preinstalled Windows OS is worth nothing. How can I argue with that?

To be honest, I can see their point of view; I'm certain they make no profit from preinstalling a windows OS per se.

Go into business selling computers with the " Free" Windows OS pre-installed.

[mrsudo]

glad to meet a fellow canadian kevin :)

it is a little bit of a hassle. i just wish i could order a laptop with ubuntu included

[futureproof]

I'll bookmark this thread so I can link to it the next time a Linux Vs Windows thread degenerates into saying windows costs $100s

[bryncoles]

hi everybody! interesting thread, this one. thought i might chip in... did anyone see this story?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7252707.stm

EULA's might not even be legal (at least on my side of the pond), and they're certainly not fair.

in happier news, and if anyone's in lancaster (UK), we have a little computer shop on the university campus here which may be politely described as 'rabidly OSS'. a friend of mine is trying to buy a laptop, mainly for graphics editing, so the computer shop is looking into the best linux distribution for that purpose, and even offered to knock a few £££ for not putting windows on it.

my point? god bless the little guys!

[octopuskevin]

glad to meet a fellow canadian kevin :)

it is a little bit of a hassle. i just wish i could order a laptop with ubuntu included

nice to meet ya too. As I stated, Dell has already begun to sell Ubuntu laptops in canada. you can find it at http://www.dell.ca/open

For those canucks that love a deal, I also recommend checking out Red Flag Deals (http://www.redflagdeals.com/deals/main.php/alldeals/cat/Dell.ca/) as they list a bunch of really good deals for everything and everything including Dell computers. ... you may be able to get Dell to honor a windows promo on your ubuntu computer instead.

Unfortunately I already bought my school laptop so I'm not going to need a new one for a bit, but if you do grab an open-source Dell computer from within Canada, lemme know how Dell's service was.

[mike farad]

I stumbled on this thread when I saw Dell was selling Inspiron 530s with Ubuntu pre-installed. Just for fun, I configured a similar Vista system on the Dell site, and it came in at $10 less than the Ubuntu package. Actulally the Vista machine was slightly better in that it had a 2GHz CPU over the Ubuntu 1.8 Ghz CPU. ( I guess Dell knows that Linux runs better than Windows, so they thought we wouldn't need as good of a processor). Anyway, where is the Windows rebate on this machine, when it leaves the factory never having been installed with Microsoft? And if you should want to apply for the OS rebate, what sticker would you peel off? the UL/CSA certification maybe, LOL.

[cardinals_fan]

To be honest, I can see their point of view; I'm certain they make no profit from preinstalling a windows OS per se.
I'm certain that they DO make a profit. Why else would they do it?

[Mazza558]

Just a comical and completely off-topic aside - if you had named the thread "[SOLVED]" at the beginning, and then marked the thread as solved, it'd say "[SOLVED] [SOLVED]".

[odin1965]

I don't think we can call this thing [SOLVED] yet, by any means. Go to the Dell Canada website and configure two separate machines, one with windows and one with Ubuntu. Two can do them both at the same time in different tabs. Below are the two I did. Quite a difference.

VISTA - $769
Intel® Core™ 2 Duo T5550 (1.83GHz/667Mhz FSB/2MB cache) english
OPERATING SYSTEMGenuine Windows Vista™ Home Premium Edition
SYSTEM COLOURJet Black
LCD AND CAMERAGlossy, widescreen 15.4 inch display (1280x800)
INTEGRATED WEBCAMIntegrated 2.0M Pixel Webcam
MEMORY2GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 at 667MHz
HARD DRIVE250GB SATA Hard Drive (5400RPM)
GRAPHICS CARDIntel® Graphics Media Accelerator X3100
OPTICAL DRIVE8X CD/DVD Burner (DVD+/-RW) with double-layer DVD+R write capability
WIRELESS CARDIntel Next -Gen Wireless -N Mini -card
BLUETOOTHDell Wireless 355 Bluetooth Internal (2.0 + Enhanced Data Rate)
BATTERY OPTIONS56Whr Lithium Ion Battery (6 cell)
SOUND OPTIONSHigh Definition Audio 2.0

UBUNTU - $1059
PROCESSOR Intel® Core™ 2 Duo T5550 (1.83GHz/667Mhz FSB/2MB cache)?
OPERATING SYSTEM Ubuntu Linux version 7.10 with DVD Playback
SYSTEM COLOUR Jet Black
LCD DISPLAY Glossy, widescreen 15.4 inch display (1280x800)
INTEGRATED WEBCAM Integrated 2.0M Pixel Webcam
MEMORY 2GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 at 667MHz
HARD DRIVE 250GB SATA Hard Drive (5400RPM)
GRAPHICS CARD Intel® Graphics Media Accelerator X3100
OPTICAL DRIVE 8X CD/DVD Burner (DVD+/-RW) with double-layer DVD+R write capability
HARDWARE SERVICES 1 Year Limited Warranty w/1 Year Return To Depot Service
WIRELESS CARD Intel® 3945 802.11a/g Mini-card
BLUETOOTH Dell Wireless 355 Bluetooth Internal (2.0 + Enhanced Data Rate)
BATTERY OPTIONS 85Whr Lithium Ion Battery (9 cell)
SOUND OPTIONS High Definition Audio 2.0

I want Ubuntu on my laptop, in fact I bought a Dell last summer before they were available here and I put Ubuntu on it. I also want to support Ubuntu, but 300 buck is a lot. I have advised others in the purchase of a 1525 or 1725 and I would love to recommend Ubuntu, but of the 4 people I helped, I could not tell them to pay EXTRA for a FREE OS.

[odin1965]

Oops, just realized, I had the bigger battery option on the Ubuntu one. Price difference is actually $230. Still a lot.

[clarknova]

Shameless. And the Windows machine has a better wireless card, according to your post (unless you happen to prefer a/g over n).

db

[octopuskevin]

hmm sounds a lot like the problems they were having in the US during the initial release.

Anyways if you guys want I can 'unsolve' this thread and we can use it to pressure Dell to provide identical deals with the Ubuntu computers, or we can open a new thread about it.

While this thread has gotten a fair degree of attention, I just think the current issue may not relate to the initial topic.

Thus in my opinion, I recommend forwarding issues over Dell's pricing to this thread: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=740278

or one 'Canadian' related

-Kevin

[otakuj462]

I believe this thread should be unmarked as solved. Try to visit the Dell Ubuntu site at dell.ca/ubuntu, and click through. You'll find that Dell Canada is currently offering no computers preloaded with Ubuntu:

http://www1.ca.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/linux_3x?c=ca&cs=cadhs1&l=en&s=dhs

Compare this with Dell US:

http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/ubuntu?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs&~ck=anavml

I need a new computer, and I would really like to get the Inspiron 15n, but as I'm in Canada, I don't have access to it. I guess I'm just going to have to buy the Inspiron 15 with Windows Vista and ask Dell to offer me a refund.

[Gizenshya]

I've had a very different experience with this issue.

I've talked with Dell, HP, Compaq, and Gateway about computers (around the time this post was made). Though none of them had the option on their site, all were more than willing to ship it without Windows XP Home (Vista was not out yet). It was as simple as asking "can I get XXX without XP?" Every one answered in the affirmative without hassle. They all took about $85 off of the price. I didn't actually purchase one without windows, though. I was merely curious. I was calling on behalf of a family member, who eventually got a Gateway with XP Home.

Also, what made me think to ask that was something on the news around that time. They said something like it is illegal for them to only sell that, and they are required by law to not add it if asked. They went on to say that they aren't required to have the option on their website, only that they had to comply if asked (by phone, email, etc.). Well, they all did :p

One thing that I noticed... only $25 was offered? That is far less than they offered to take off before purchase. This sounds very suspicious, though it may be beating a dead horse now.

I'm curious what they would say now...

PS: I wouldn't want them to install Ubuntu for me. They would no doubt charge some sort of fee. I would much rather get a Vista one and have them take off Vista.

Now, this is all in the US. Canada might not have that protection. But it does beg the question: why was the machine purchased with windows, instead of never having it added in the first place?

[clarknova]

I work at a College and I'm disappointed to report that, aside from the listed Ubuntu models (pink, anyone?) I'm not able to purchase a Dell, even through our Corporate rep. I'll let the interested parties speak for themselves:

From Salvatore Martorana, Account Manager | Public Sector | Dell Canada:

<quote>I cannot remove any of the system software except the roxio which I will do so and send you new quote</quote>

Our IT director then confirmed for me that when the college buys Dell computers they come with Windows preinstalled, despite the fact that we have a site license, and we image every new machine with Windows anyway. Even Windows customers are being forced to buy extra copies of Windows!

Disappointing news indeed. Next time you read a stat on the number of copies of Windows sold, keep in mind that a few thousand of those are duplicates, thanks to my small employer alone. I can't imagine it's any different for any other institution or corporation with volume licensing, at least those buying from Dell and any other OEM that refuses to give you the choice.

[clarknova]

I work at a College and I'm disappointed to report that, aside from the listed Ubuntu models (pink, anyone?) I'm not able to purchase a Dell, even through our Corporate rep. I'll let the interested parties speak for themselves:

From Salvatore Martorana, Account Manager | Public Sector | Dell Canada:


I cannot remove any of the system software except the roxio which I will do so and send you new quote

Our IT director then confirmed for me that when the college buys Dell computers they come with Windows preinstalled, despite the fact that we have a site license, and we image every new machine with Windows anyway. Even Windows customers are being forced to buy extra copies of Windows!

Disappointing news indeed. Next time you read a stat on the number of copies of Windows sold, keep in mind that a few thousand of those are duplicates, thanks to my small employer alone. I can't imagine it's any different for any other institution or corporation with volume licensing, at least those buying from Dell and any other OEM that refuses to give you the choice.

[Matz05]

That "open" dell Canada link is dead.
Figures. Why can't one buy a bare metal computer anymore?

[sffvba[e0rt]

That "open" dell Canada link is dead.
Figures. Why can't one buy a bare metal computer anymore?

Thread is more than 2 years old (might have something to do with it).

Old thread closed.


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